ChorizoPicozo
Member
That's unreal.
-
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It seems impossible to compete with Nanite and Lumen, it seems like in-house engines will become a rarity
ChorizoPicozo
Member
I will give you a chance to:
1. Be categorical/specific in formulating your statement.
2. Dial down the hyperbolic.
If you don't wanna see me mad
ethomaz
Banned
I agree… dial down the hyperbolic.I will give you a chance to:
1. Be categorical/specific in formulating your statement.
2. Dial down the hyperbolic.
If you don't wanna see me mad
“It seems impossible to compete with Nanite and Lumen, it seems like in-house engines will become a rarity”
ChorizoPicozo
Member
i didn't write that.
MaKTaiL
Member
Insomniac enters right after.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
Be specific.
Decima has proven its weight on gold. IS the best* engine SEI has right now.
*An Engine goes beyond the graphics.
lh032
I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
yea decima is impressive.
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
You have 80 major nextgen games announced in your list that arent Unreal Engine powered?
Ohh I cant wait for this list to be filled with 10dollar ID@Xbox games and games from studios no one has ever heard of which feature 1 developers.
Im all for being proven wrong so lets see this list of games.
In Cold Blood
Banned
UE5 isn't gods gift. It's just one of the first engines to release with some of the newer tech built in.
Anything UE5 has done other engines will be able to do as well if they have the time and resources to put into an engine.
The next engine to get used with all the newer tech like Mesh Shaders, SFS etc etc is Forzatech. It should give us a good indication of how other engines will compare. I'm not putting the Matrix demo up as something to be compared to because it's just a demo with no gameplay. I don't count the on rails shooting thing as game play.
The earlier demo.on the PS5 and what we saw from Hellblade 2 is more indicative.
Anything UE5 has done other engines will be able to do as well if they have the time and resources to put into an engine.
The next engine to get used with all the newer tech like Mesh Shaders, SFS etc etc is Forzatech. It should give us a good indication of how other engines will compare. I'm not putting the Matrix demo up as something to be compared to because it's just a demo with no gameplay. I don't count the on rails shooting thing as game play.
The earlier demo.on the PS5 and what we saw from Hellblade 2 is more indicative.
ethomaz
Banned
Read.
There is actually over 100 games announced for 2022… and yes just 2022 already has more non-UE games than your forever 31 list.
Imagine a very small list of 31 for several years and talk about 50% or devs moving to UE lol
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Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Let me see that list of major announced nextgen games that are using proprietary tech.
I legit cant even think of 50 let alone 100 games that have been announced that are using proprietary engines.
Even Unity doesnt seem that prevalent for major nextgen games.
Just copy paste into pastebin if you have to.
31 was literally all the games that came to my head first.....since you have over 100 in your head list just 100.
Ill sit and find the rest of the Unreal Engine games list cuz nextgen titles a large number of the announced games are Unreal Engine powered.
Maybe we can have a final tally.
ZehDon
Gold Member
With Epic able to pour dedicate man-years and millions into R&D, it makes sense their work is putting them ahead. However, Unreal Engine isn't "one size fits all". At least, not yet. They're currently working hard to make it more applicable for cutting edge open world games, for example, with CDPR assisting with that work. It seems the Engine issues they ran into with Cyberpunk convinced them that using a third party engine was simply a better way to make games.
With that said, I'll be curious to see if we re-enter the Unreal Engine 3 era, where a lot of games had the 'Unreal Engine' look to them. This was seen most easily in the Xbox 360 era. We haven't really had that problem since that era ended, mostly because developers began to heavily customise their Unreal Engine branches. But on Unreal Engine 5, with systems like Lumen and Nanite, developers would be less likely to develop their own lighting implementations because those systems are already bleeding edge. They're more likely to simply rely on the engine's in-built solutions again. Curious to see how things look after the first wave of UE5 games land. I suspect we're in for a lot of rocky vistas, fewer trees, and a focus on time-of-day natural lighting for a while.
With that said, I'll be curious to see if we re-enter the Unreal Engine 3 era, where a lot of games had the 'Unreal Engine' look to them. This was seen most easily in the Xbox 360 era. We haven't really had that problem since that era ended, mostly because developers began to heavily customise their Unreal Engine branches. But on Unreal Engine 5, with systems like Lumen and Nanite, developers would be less likely to develop their own lighting implementations because those systems are already bleeding edge. They're more likely to simply rely on the engine's in-built solutions again. Curious to see how things look after the first wave of UE5 games land. I suspect we're in for a lot of rocky vistas, fewer trees, and a focus on time-of-day natural lighting for a while.
Javthusiast
Banned
Does Naughty Dogs engine have a name?
ChorizoPicozo
Member
The Cinematic-Engine.
Javthusiast
Banned
StealthGoblin
Banned
I do wonder whether it makes financial sense for Sony studios to keep investing money into their own technology. Days Gone and Returnal looked and played great. It would also make PC ports a lot easier.
Shubh_C63
Member
Yup I agree. In terms of support and bug squashing, most can't go wrong with widely used engines. Current scenario this still holds true but definitely needle will move towards the Unreal market more.
luffie
Member
Meanwhile none of the best selling games are using UE...
An engine is not all pretty graphics. The complexity and ease of programming to solve specific problems is what makes an engine good.
Just look at games made with Frostbite, devs all say it's pretty, but works like shit for any non fps games.
An engine is not all pretty graphics. The complexity and ease of programming to solve specific problems is what makes an engine good.
Just look at games made with Frostbite, devs all say it's pretty, but works like shit for any non fps games.
Physiognomonics
Member
I remember when they did demos of UE4 on PS4, nobody was enthusiastic the way they are on UE5 demos.
You seem to think UE is the same engine from 2005! Yet that’s almost 20 years ago. UE is now used in movies, series , games . It’s literally cutting edge and used by many , how awful do you think it is in usability?
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Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Why sell a game when you can sell a dance and make more money than the guys selling games?
P.S
I take it you havent used Unreal Engine in the past like decade?
If you arent a powerful coder you have Blueprint, if you are confident in your coding work use C++.
Unreal is easily extensible if theres something that it doesnt do that you need your game to do.
How much easier can things get?
Senior graphics and engine programmers are so limited in supply that it doesn't really make sense to roll your own engine unless game really demands it which is very rare. Epic especially can pay so much better wages thay only handful of studios can compete with them on that regard.
YeulEmeralda
Member
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
And its not just Epic studios would be fighting against for Talent, Nvidia and Unity have also been on a hiring spree for graphic programmers and engineers
Its not like we are saying bespoke engines are gonna disappear.
And Unreal Engine 3 and even 4 didnt have quite the same level of pull as Unreal Engine 5 seems to have, launch UE3 and UE4 didnt really have any revolutionary tech that had everybody talking.
But UE5s Nanite system and pretty damn good GI and reflection solution really are a step forward.
Unreal Engine is so far ahead right now that it makes sense to move to it simply because getting or rather keeping the talent to keep developing your engine to actually catchup with Unreal is getting harder and harder as the big companies snatch up talent.
And its not like Unreal Engine isnt extensible so if Unreal doesnt do something you need it to do, its easier to start from a base like Unreal cut what you dont need, add what you do need than to work on an engine yourself.
Epic, Unity, Nvidia, even offline renderers like Redshift are basically eating up all the talent because they can afford to pay a higher wage.
Except not this generation, as the horsepower is not there in these consoles .
VFXVeteran
Banned
I have to correct one thing about your comment. Lumen can calculate RT GI within it's pipeline. It doesn't only have ONE solution for it's technique.Lunen isn't even that great...it runs like shit and looks worse than many other RT lighting implementations
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VFXVeteran
Banned
UE5 implements full path-tracing and RT. Do you guys even read up on this stuff?
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DaGwaphics
Member
The weight of Lumen is the biggest hurdle you see in the UE5 demo on PC, seems to be primarily CPU bound. They'll need to get more acceleration from the GPU. If a 3080 can't do 60fps at any resolution, that's a problem. Obviously a work in progress though.
ethomaz
Banned
Guilhermegrg
Member
Hmm probably yes, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
Same way we have compilers to turn human readable code into assembly, the more there are developed engines capable of doing the basic stuff, the more developers can be actually creating the game instead of spending time coding the Nth version of a renderer.
The more a specific platform is used, the more there can be optimizations for the different platforms and such. More documentation, more support, more staff, etc.
Is there a possibility for a dominating position and possible abuse ? Sure, but that is not the current situation. They have what seems to be a very good tool and so they have adoption.
But they Nanite and Lumen are solutions to current problems, bypasses to current hardware limitations, that will be valid/useful for some time. And also not every game needs or uses the particular set of functionality that Unreal provides.
Same way we have compilers to turn human readable code into assembly, the more there are developed engines capable of doing the basic stuff, the more developers can be actually creating the game instead of spending time coding the Nth version of a renderer.
The more a specific platform is used, the more there can be optimizations for the different platforms and such. More documentation, more support, more staff, etc.
Is there a possibility for a dominating position and possible abuse ? Sure, but that is not the current situation. They have what seems to be a very good tool and so they have adoption.
But they Nanite and Lumen are solutions to current problems, bypasses to current hardware limitations, that will be valid/useful for some time. And also not every game needs or uses the particular set of functionality that Unreal provides.
ethomaz
Banned
From the game showed in Unreal Engine event last week 100% are using Unreal Engine
That claim is so obtuse and not correct that makes me wonder why people are believing it.
I mean announced when? Because there is no way 48% of the games announced that are UE.
What makes a next-gen game? Only for PS5? PC is included? Because if includes PC then again there is no way 48% of the games announced are UE.
There's a long laundry list of drawbacks to using licensed engine-tech, but they depend on unique circumstances you are in. If you're a big IP holder - the risk of permanently(or heavily) attaching yourself to a license are virtually never worth the cost. For smaller cases - the situation is mostly reverse (it's almost nonsensical not to take a license).
If your question was specifically to technology in UE5, ie. Nanite - I think we're a few years too early to have real answers. Looking at Matrix Demo in isolation I could argue they still haven't solved most of the common world streaming/LOD issues (or at least, the original marketing premise of 'fire&forget' is untrue), but this is really early days...
The discourse being limited to 'what's the answer to X' is kind of missing the point. It's not how markets work - even looking at game-engines past specifically, noone answered UE3 mass-migration by copying UE, but it still came to an end.
I'm gonna assume you work in recruitment and you have a giant spreadsheet tracking thousands/tens-of thousands of engineers, mind sharing some of that with us ordinary folks?
They also had a bunch of leavers in 2021. The so called 'great resignation/great migration' has not really spared anyone in tech, while it's entirely possible some places are notably more popular than others - I doubt we have the data to really speak to that yet, at least from the data I've seen (but of course - maybe your spreadsheet can help).
VFXVeteran
Banned
Why are you singling out the PC with the bottleneck? Lumen is expensive on any platform. And I'm not sure I would have enough info to determine that it's primarily CPU bound.
Why would you think that the highest end graphics board should be able to implement any 3D algorithm with no limitations in bandwidth or compute cycles? That's like saying, if the 3080 can't do full on path-tracing at any resolution and at 60FPS, then there's a problem with the algorithm. Every single GPU that comes out will always be constrained by bandwidth - both on the shader side and on the memory side.
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This is indeed one data point.
Assuming equivalent starting point (ie. Migrate to UE, or Migrate to a new custom stack) the economies of scale typically start to balance out around 2-3 titles (no, not 20).
I'm not making any assumptions or claims towards output quality here - just production cost impact/amortization between two approaches.
Different starting points can radically change this though (eg. if you're migrating from an old version of UE, or upgrading an old proprietary stack) etc.
ReBurn
Gold Member
This is why you'll see more UE5.
SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
It also depends on the size of your project(s). Unreal is pretty cheap to license, and moreso for smaller scale projects. Add in the availability of premade assets and you can see why more and more small and mid sized projects are using Unreal.
Silver Wattle
Gold Member
I will never understand people's amazement over out of focus or blurry images.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
There's no such thing as a one-size-fits-all solution. So while I see Unreal continuing to be the most widely-used solution for high-end engine middleware, I don't see it becoming that much more popular than it is already.
Studios building their own engines has been economically impractical for most for years already. And not just because of the complexity of the tech, but because recruiting people then having to train them up on bespoke toolchains is additional sunken cost, and moreover isn't of any long-term career benefit to most applicants.
What I suspect we're going to see a lot more of in the future are situations like what happened with Housemarque, basically studios modifying their traditional use-case tech into bespoke plug-ins for Unreal, because it offers a best-of-both-worlds solution. They can hire-in people familiar with UE, and get immediate productivity whilst introducing them to their specialist tech if required.
Studios building their own engines has been economically impractical for most for years already. And not just because of the complexity of the tech, but because recruiting people then having to train them up on bespoke toolchains is additional sunken cost, and moreover isn't of any long-term career benefit to most applicants.
What I suspect we're going to see a lot more of in the future are situations like what happened with Housemarque, basically studios modifying their traditional use-case tech into bespoke plug-ins for Unreal, because it offers a best-of-both-worlds solution. They can hire-in people familiar with UE, and get immediate productivity whilst introducing them to their specialist tech if required.
SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
Yeah Lumen's big advantage is that isn't tied to any particular hardware but plenty of games have offered robust realtime GI at this point. Nanite is a much bigger deal because it frees devs from a lot of the pain of optimizing content to polygon budgets. In practice it almost reminds me of the voxel system in Dreams, where there are some limits in terms of the amount of dynamic objects but you aren't really worrying about limits on geometric complexity.
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
From the game showed in Unreal Engine event last week 100% are using Unreal Engine
That claim is so obtuse and not correct that makes me wonder why people are believing it.
I mean announced when? Because there is no way 48% of the games announced that are UE.
What makes a next-gen game? Only for PS5? PC is included? Because if includes PC then again there is no way 48% of the games announced are UE.
The statement reads: 48% of announced next-generation console titles are powered by Unreal,
Yet you say its an obtuse claim.....whose really being obtuse here?
Do you know what a next generation console is?
Ill break it down for when you give me that list of over 100 announced games that arent Unreal Engine powered
Step 1
Has the game been announced if yes go to step 2.
Step 2
Only PS5 sure (add)
Only XSX sure (add)
Only PS5 and XSX sure (add)
Only PS5, XSX and PC sure. (Add)
To put things plainly if the console version is only on a nextgen console then count it.
Of the games announced as being nextgen Unreal is powering approx 48% of them.
Now granted that unlikely doesnt count all the ID@Xbox games and whatnot running on Unity, Gamemaker or whatever runs those visual novels.......but I dont think hes too far off in saying of the nextgen titles that will likely be printed to disc ~48% are powered by Unreal Engine.
ethomaz
Banned
So ignore basically all games launched for Switch or others next-gen games like Gran Turismo 7 or Elden Ring.
Of course it is obtuse.
But I will enter in your "selected" rules lol
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Gran Turismo and Elden Ring were already out when he said that.
That proclamation was made on April 5th.
ethomaz
Banned
I give examples lol
It was obvious it was already out daaaaa... "others next-gen games LIKE"
You are like "if I remove what I need to remove I can reach any number I need" lol
But like I said... I will play your game.
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