Support NeoGAF

[Speevy]

*locks the door and sets the thread ablaze*

 

[sportzhead]

http://www.smithappens.com/video_snlmercurymistress.php

Your move.

:lol :lol :lol

If it used my man juice as gas I would never need to stop at a gas station.

My girl would be like what are you doing in the garage at 2 in the morning? And I'd say "just filling up the gas tank honey".

 

[dark10x]

No, we don't. I was just pointing out that HIGH PROFILE first party games from Sony also suffer from some of the problems we're seeing in PGR3.

See, that's the thing. You pointed out a scant few titles out a truly massive library of Sony created titles. Do you know just how many games SCE has produced this generation?

Take a look at everything that Microsoft Game Studios has released for XBOX and are releasing for XBOX360. Virtually everything is 30 fps (or worse).

My original post was simply pointing out that the comment about PS2 and 30 fps was wrong in its context. He claimed that, when PS2 was released, people were disappointed by 30 fps. That just wasn't true. During the first year or two, the majority of titles released for the system were 60 fps. The problem was image quality. Field rendering was everywhere and games were extremely jaggy looking in comparison to the Dreamcast.

 

[Kleegamefan]

So negligible impact... cool

Also, verticies that intersect more than one tile have to be written twice (or three times if its a really big vert) so that has some performance hit as well (fillrate)...

AFAIK, there are some in-hardware workarounds for this potential problem, though nobody is talking.....yet....

 

[isamu]

So let me get this straight.

Project Gotham Racing 3:

1)Runs at 30 frames per second

2)Is NOT running at Hi-def 720p

3)Does not have force feedback support

While Ridge Racer 6:

1)Runs at 60 frames per second

2)Runs in Hi-def 720p

3)Supports force feedback

4)Has faster more adrenaline-like speed and gameplay


Hmmm.....quite interesting. I wonder who the winner is.

 

[anthony]

So let me get this straight.

Project Gotham Racing 3:

1)Runs at 30 frames per second

2)Is NOT running at Hi-def 720p

3)Does not have force feedback support

While Ridge Racer 6:

1)Runs at 60 frames per second

2)Runs in Hi-def 720p

3)Supports force feedback

4)Has faster more adrenaline-like speed and gameplay


Hmmm.....quite interesting. I wonder who the winner is.

maybe the one with the best gameplay and most variety Isamooo?

come and collect your prize Bizzare.

 

[Shogmaster]

So let me get this straight.

Project Gotham Racing 3:

1)Runs at 30 frames per second

2)Is NOT running at Hi-def 720p

3)Does not have force feedback support

While Ridge Racer 6:

1)Runs at 60 frames per second

2)Runs in Hi-def 720p

3)Supports force feedback

4)Has faster more adrenaline-like speed and gameplay


Hmmm.....quite interesting. I wonder who the winner is.

Wake me up when RR6 looks better than PGR3.

 

[Speevy]

isamu: Project Gotham Racing 3 will outscore and outsell your PSP port. Now step inside a hollowed out Sega arcade machine and time travel back to a point at which people cared.

 

[Big Takeover]

Ok, repeating some of what I said in Halo2 thread.

1066*600(true 16:9) fits into 10MB of eDram with 2xAA, without requiring any tiling.
This setting is supposed to be at least comparable to 720P with no AA - according to research from the, well this... company.

I have no doubt Bizarre evaluated both display options and chose the one that actually 'looks' better, rather then 'reads' better on PR paper sheet.
In a nutshell it seems 600P is still on the list of minimum accepted resolutions for 360.

Like some other people in the thread have mentioned, many PS2 and GC games this gen are running at non-TV resolutions also - most commonly 512x512 is used as alternative to 640x480/512 (In fact some of the best looking games this gen have used this).

As skeptical as I originally was, this really does appear to be the case. You know how people love taking shots at MS, let's see if the "ED Revolution" story makes it out of a few forums.

 

[Shogmaster]

As skeptical as I originally was, this really does appear to be the case. You know how people love taking shots at MS, let's see if the "EDTV revolution" story makes it out of a few forums.

I'm not ready to accept the notion quite yet that even MGS "1st party" efforts don't take advantage of Xeno's tiling method. Unless indeed the PGR3 engine is fillrate limited at 1280x720 with AA...

I'll wait until another person other than an anonymous poster at a forum comes forward with actual confirmation (refering to the Moonface guy, not faffy-waffy whom I trust, but he doesn't have a copy of PGR3 on him).

Either way, it doesn't matter much to me practically since I'm gonna play the game on my CRT monitor with the VGA kit. If it's running at 1024x600p, then I'll just set the dashboard to 1024x768 when I play PGR3.

 

[dark10x]

maybe the one with the best gameplay and most variety Isamooo?

How about the one that is more fun?

*waves to Ridge Racer

Yeah, I like fun. I also like Ridge Racer.

 

[Big Takeover]

I'm not ready to accept the notion quite yet that even MGS "1st party" efforts don't take advantage of Xeno's tiling method. Unless indeed the PGR3 engine is fillrate limited at 1280x720 with AA...

I'll wait until another person other than an anonymous poster at a forum comes forward with actual confirmation (refering to the Moonface guy, not faffy-waffy whom I trust, but he doesn't have a copy of PGR3 on him).

Either way, it doesn't matter much to me practically since I'm gonna play the game on my CRT monitor with the VGA kit. If it's running at 1024x600p, then I'll just set the dashboard to 1024x768 when I play PGR3.

Your right. The crickets must have gotten to me.

Oh, sure, the reality is it looks great, and I'm going to play the hell out of it.

 

[isamu]

Wake me up when RR6 looks better than PGR3.

*shakes Shogmaster like I used to shake my old grandpa when he'd fall asleep in his rocking chair and start snoring louder than a rock concert*

 

[Shogmaster]

Damn isamu! You've gotten quite violent lately.... *puts glasses back on the head*

 

[byproduct]

Like some other people in the thread have mentioned, many PS2 and GC games this gen are running at non-TV resolutions also - most commonly 512x512 is used as alternative to 640x480/512 (In fact some of the best looking games this gen have used this).

Which ones?

Really, I didn't know this and it's interesting.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Doesn't ZoE2 run in 512*512?

 

[gofreak]

Well, to get true 720p with AA and HDR would take 3 clock cycles and that's not good as doing it in a single clock so I guess that's one. But keep in mind there are 500,000,000 cycles Xenos does per second, and it's not like rest of the GPU will be doing nothing in those other two cycles, right?

720p with AA and HDR does not take 3 cycles, where did you read this?

Anyway, the costs of tiling I can remember are:

1) a small small hit to main memory bandwidth for tiling in and out (the GPU also apparently sits idle during copies of tiles to main memory - but it doesn't take long)
2) a variable, unknown duplication of vertex processing work for all polygons that intersect tile boundaries (variable from frame to frame even)
3) maintenance of command lists that could occupy a decent amount of main memory, a large amount potentially.

 

[antipode]

Is it also possible they're not doing the Z-only pass? After all, they have (by their figures) a large amount of geometry streaming by, with tight control of overdraw and not a lot of need for pixel shaders other than the windows of those buildings, which limits the benefit of the culling. In that case, you'd also have to add the Z-only pass to the cost of binning the tiles (on top of what gofreak mentioned.)

 

[Yusaku]

Also, verticies that intersect more than one tile have to be written twice (or three times if its a really big vert) so that has some performance hit as well (fillrate)...

AFAIK, there are some in-hardware workarounds for this potential problem, though nobody is talking.....yet....

Verticies have no size, they're just a point in space.

 

[mrklaw]

blah blah blah

You don't know what res RR6 is rendering to yet....

 

[Nick Laslett]

This is pretty shocking news.

If PGR3 was not a racing game, then it wouldn't matter, but it is.

Bizarre have had a lot of time to get this game right. It is not like the development has been rushed. They've been developing this since Winter 2003.

1. No 60 FPS. (At least give the user the option to remove effects to get a better framerate.)
2. No 720p native resolution. (On fixed panel displays a 1:1 pixel mapping produces the best picture. Now we have an inbetween resolution. we are only getting 24 lines more than PAL 576 prog scan. Hardly a revolution.)

For me no 60fps, no 720p, no sale. Otherwise what is the point of the next gen? I get 30fps and 480p on every game this gen. (SSX release Nov 2000 was 640x448p @ 60fps) Next gen has got to raise the bar. Sorry, but that is what I expect. Imagine if HD-DVD or Blu-Ray were only offering 600p movies. It's a joke. This goes for PS3 games too.

 

[Inumaru]

Verticies have no size, they're just a point in space.

Actually, verticies don't even exist. Vertices, however, really are just a point in space.

 

[cybamerc]

Nick Laslett:

> This is pretty shocking news.

Nah.

> 1. No 60 FPS.

Are you really surprised after PGR2? Besides, it's been confirmed for a while.

> 2. No 720p native resolution. (On fixed panel displays a 1:1 pixel mapping produces the
> best picture. Now we have an inbetween resolution. we are only getting 24 lines more
> than PAL 576 prog scan. Hardly a revolution.)

I hate to defend one of M$' partners but... first of all there aren't many fixed pixel displays with a physical resolution of 1280x720. So even at 720p the image would have to be scaled.

Secondly, while the vertical resolution is only a marginal improvement over PAL the horisontal resolution is quite a bit higher.

 

[mrklaw]

Nick, you are getting more horizontal resolution compared to PAL progressive - 1024 compared to 720. And it will still be output at 1280x720, so matching an LCD isn't an issue.

But yes, it is disappointing - even if you don't notice and it looks great, you'll still be thinking "it could have looked better"



Yusaku - I'm assuming he meant polygons that cross tile boundaries. You'd need to recalculate all the associated vertices

 

[Nick Laslett]

Nick Laslett:

I hate to defend one of M$' partners but... first of all there aren't many fixed pixel displays with a physical resolution of 1280x720.

I know.

But a 768 line display will still give you 1:1 mapping for 720 resolution with thin black bars.

With 600 lines the bars would be bigger but I would still prefer the 600 line image with bars to one that has been scaled from 600 to 720.

I prefer to avoid scaling where ever possible. That just my preference. Perhaps the 1024x600 display resolution is a selectable on the Dashboard?

 

[Raiden]

So let me get this straight.

Project Gotham Racing 3:

1)Runs at 30 frames per second

2)Is NOT running at Hi-def 720p

3)Does not have force feedback support

While Ridge Racer 6:

1)Runs at 60 frames per second

2)Runs in Hi-def 720p

3)Supports force feedback

4)Has faster more adrenaline-like speed and gameplay


Hmmm.....quite interesting. I wonder who the winner is.

What no fucking Force Feedback? Is this official pls tell me this isnt official!

 

[Yusaku]

Actually, verticies don't even exist. Vertices, however, really are just a point in space.

 

[cyberheater]

Iv'e played it at the Glasgow MS show and I don't care what resolution it runs at internally. It looks fantastic, sharp and detailed. Definitely the best looking game i've ever seen.

Who cares what resolution it's running internally.

 

[Inumaru]

Hey, if you're going to correct someone about their use of a word, the least you can do is spell the fucking word right.

And, it was a funny screw up, so...more sense of humor, less defensive ass, please.

 

[mrklaw]

Nick, depends on your screen, but most fixed pixel displays will *not* display 720p as is - they'll scale up to 768.

There will almost certainly be scaling involved somewhere. Either the TV will scale up to 1366x768 and the Xbox will not - or using the VGA connector you can output 1360x768 so the TV gets 1:1 mapping. But then the Xbox will do scaling to that resolution.

 

[ThirdEye]

Actually, this whole 600p thing is not about the amount of power but about the amount of EDRAM.

Where's the distinction between power and others? The eDRAM in Xenos is to get a large bandwidth, which is well within the definition of power I think.

 

[fortified_concept]

So... is it confirmed or people are just complaining without any proof? IMO PGR3 running at 30 fps and 600p is simply laughable. I don't think it's true.

 

[Yusaku]

Hey, if you're going to correct someone about their use of a word, the least you can do is spell the fucking word right.

And, it was a funny screw up, so...more sense of humor, less defensive ass, please.

Who's being defensive? It's a Hitler emoticon! You can't get mad at Hitler emoticon.

 

[bud]

But I thought that xbox360 games would atleast be in 720p...

 

[Shogmaster]

720p with AA and HDR does not take 3 cycles, where did you read this?

"3 cycles" was my simplistic way to illustrate it takes 3 times longer in theory to do it than something like this 1024x600 with 2x AA approach. Sorry. God knows how many cycles Bizzare is making Xenos take to crank out a frame with all the effect they are pushing. Well, I guess we do since it's a 30fps games.

 

[urk]

But I thought that xbox360 games would atleast be in 720p...

For what it's worth, the retail box lists the game as HD 720p. Of course, who knows if they are referring to the actual render or some post scaler definition. Either way, at least technically, they are giving you 720p on your television, even if that is some shady sounding shit if the 600p stuff is true.

 

[DenogginizerOS]

Iv'e played it at the Glasgow MS show and I don't care what resolution it runs at internally. It looks fantastic, sharp and detailed. Definitely the best looking game i've ever seen.

Who cares what resolution it's running internally.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH-mennnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!

 

[Beer Monkey]

It's 3:30pm in the UK and still no comment from Bizarre. I think that pretty much clinches it.

I do think way too much is made of this. If you need somebody to tell you that it is 600p before you start yelling, after so much other media has been released, it's obvious that this is still a damned good looking game, especially for a frickin' launch title! Even at 30fps. When you look at the launch titles as a whole, this is a lot bigger jump over the current gen than launch PS2 was over PS1.

 

[Fafalada]

Which ones?
Really, I didn't know this and it's interesting.

Off the top of my head, most Konami stuff IIRC (well, I know MGS2 and SH3/4 did at least), I know some EA sports games also did, Splinter Cell...
Frankly on NTSC TVs it's nigh impossible to tell (arguably 512x512 will actually look better then 640x448 because of more vertical samples), I just know for a few games because I ran them through Devkit to look at things.

Is it also possible they're not doing the Z-only pass?

I find that highly doubtfull - on the new consoles there's virtually no excuse NOT to do early-Z since it can give you performance improvements even with virtualy no PS going on.

 

[Sjoerd]

Maybe it looks almost as good. Doesn't really matter. The fact is that the game does not run at 1280*720. It runs at a lower resolution, just to make sure the game keeps running at a constant 30fps.

Which is a bit of a letdown. Sure it's a launch game. But it would be so much nicer to have a console that actually lived up to expectations. Which would mean these kind of graphics at 1280*720 and 'free' 4x aa.

I still think it looks great etc. etc... But hey, It could have been so much better.

 

[hyp]

holy f*k did anyone else catch the new 100% gameplay trailer at ign today? check it out here:

http://media.xbox360.ign.com/media/741/741362/vids_1.html

omg. this will definitely make you forget about PGR being hi-def or not. wow.

 

[op_ivy]

Maybe it looks almost as good. Doesn't really matter. The fact is that the game does not run at 1280*720. It runs at a lower resolution, just to make sure the game keeps running at a constant 30fps.

or, it was a choice made by bizarre to have at this resolution and AA, which they decided looked better then 720p without, like faf said.

holy f*k did anyone else catch the new 100% gameplay trailer at ign today? check it out here:

http://media.xbox360.ign.com/media/...362/vids_1.html

omg. this will definitely make you forget about PGR being hi-def or not. wow.

yeah, bump this thread
http://www.ga-forum.com/showthread.php?t=70793

drops my fucking jaw to the ground

 

[Sjoerd]

or, it was a choice made by bizarre to have at this resolution and AA, which they decided looked better then 720p without, like faf said.

AA was supposed to be free at 720p. They lied!

 

[HokieJoe]

AA was supposed to be free at 720p. They lied!

I have no reason to doubt what MS and ATI have said with regard to 720p/AA.

Just because Bizarre wasn't able to pull off AA @ 720p doesn't mean the hardware isn't capable of doing it. Perhaps Bizarre just couldn't pull it off this early in the 360's life cycle.

 

[op_ivy]

I have no reason to doubt what MS and ATI have said with regard to 720p/AA.

Just because Bizarre wasn't able to pull off AA @ 720p doesn't mean the hardware isn't capable of doing it. Perhaps Bizarre just couldn't pull it off this early in the 360's life cycle.

what he said. this is a launch game. bizarre, and everyone else, has had final kits for long. just cause a feature is nearly free, doesnt mean it doesnt take work to implement.

 

[Sjoerd]

Having to work very hard for something that is supposed to be free feels strange to me.

J/K, I'm trolling, I know. I Love the 360. Just can't afford one you see.

 

[Helznicht]

just cause a feature is nearly free, doesnt mean it doesnt take work to implement.

Yeah, its a whole new rendering method very different from previous PC and Console Hardware. BUT, they had been planning this new method for a LONG time so......

This tiling method sounds like a serious framerate killer to me. So if you tile 3 pieces of a 720P game into the Edram, to run 30 FPS it would be AA'ing 90 tiles a second. 60 fps would be 180 tiles per second. Yikes, what about 1080?

A question about framebuffers, have they always been part of system ram in previous systems like they seem to be on the 360?

 

[shpankey]

Off the top of my head, most Konami stuff IIRC (well, I know MGS2 and SH3/4 did at least), I know some EA sports games also did, Splinter Cell...
Frankly on NTSC TVs it's nigh impossible to tell (arguably 512x512 will actually look better then 640x448 because of more vertical samples), I just know for a few games because I ran them through Devkit to look at things.

Didn't ICO also do this? I know it ran at a lower resolution anyhow. Still one of the best looking PS2 games imo.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Didn't ICO also do this? I know it ran at a lower resolution anyhow.

Oh, it's lower than 512x512!

Still one of the best looking PS2 games imo.

On a small TV.

 

[Lord Error]

Didn't ICO also do this? I know it ran at a lower resolution anyhow. Still one of the best looking PS2 games imo.

If only...

Ico ran at something like 600x224, with every other horizontal line being black. That weird video mode goes a long way making Ico look bad on HDTVs, but it's part of it's charm on regular TV, giving it some kind of softer look.