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I believe it's time to disband 343 Industries.

BlackTron

Member
Being a little hyperbolic about the history of Halo MCC. 343 was working on MCC as soon as they realized the launch wasn't going as planned. Ya, it was a glitch filled mess, but H2A multiplayer was patched and started working on a fairly regular basis a week after launch. The first big patch was in December and multiplayer became fairly stable. The next big patch in March of 2015 made everything more stable, especially as a team. There were glitches at time, but the campaign worked from day one and co-op became stable (but still a little glitchy) with like the first or second patch in 2014.

All I remember is that updates came that reportedly fixed the game during the lead up to Infinite.

Not saying they NEVER worked on it, but isn't is kind of funny how years go by and then as soon as MS gives a crap about Halo again the game gets its first update in forever?

Like oh...I guess the decision makers care about the brand image this week...
 

Z O N E

Member
Which is exactly my point. Hardly anyone liked Halo 5, so why would you think doubling down on it would save the franchise?
The issue with Halo 5 wasn't the gameplay. It was actually quite simple.

1. They didn't make Master Chief a priority in campaign.
2. Campaign just sucked with a million Warden Eternal fights.
3. Too late internally figuring out what they should change.
4. Lack of content.

The content part is honestly not even them, it's the engine. Since they're using the BLAM engine from Bungie days, they couldn't add content fast enough. To me, the biggest issues were maps in Halo 5. Other than that, I loved it. Skill gap was more apparent at high level. Map control was more of a thing.

343 just tried to please everyone, that's why they fucked up. Halo community is VERY FICKLE.
 

Lady Jane

Banned
The issue with Halo 5 wasn't the gameplay. It was actually quite simple.

1. They didn't make Master Chief a priority in campaign.
2. Campaign just sucked with a million Warden Eternal fights.
3. Too late internally figuring out what they should change.
4. Lack of content.

The content part is honestly not even them, it's the engine. Since they're using the BLAM engine from Bungie days, they couldn't add content fast enough. To me, the biggest issues were maps in Halo 5. Other than that, I loved it. Skill gap was more apparent at high level. Map control was more of a thing.

343 just tried to please everyone, that's why they fucked up. Halo community is VERY FICKLE.

To be fair, it's very fickle due to developer/publisher incompetence. When you turn the sandbox over it's head almost every installment, the community is bound to take sides and get toxic to one another.
 

Z O N E

Member
To be fair, it's very fickle due to developer/publisher incompetence. When you turn the sandbox over it's head almost every installment, the community is bound to take sides and get toxic to one another.

It's why I think Halo 5 should've been the standard going forward. They should've kept to their original plans rather than backtracking. They mismanaged A LOT. Got the higher ups on the left side, the vocal community shouting at them on the right. The target audience in front of them. It all came together and just bit them in the ass.
 
Just finished the halo infinite campaign is was great. Prob need to lay off trying to make a LS game but halo single player is the best it’s been.
I wondering if I played the same game. The thing was straight up Z's I was legitimately falling asleep when playing it. stopped trying around the bit when I reached some floating pyramid thing
 
So they didn't create and sell 30 million copies of Halo games? Oh my mistake then, must have been a different 343.

So they also haven’t sold increasingly less with every release of theirs in a time where there is now more than triple the amount of average consumers in the industry than during Bungie’s hay day? They haven’t been been increasingly removing features only to promise to add them in later? They haven’t been increasingly releasing products with less and less content, but increasingly introducing regressive MTX?

Oh my mistake then, must be a different 343.
 
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Havoc2049

Member
All I remember is that updates came that reportedly fixed the game during the lead up to Infinite.

Not saying they NEVER worked on it, but isn't is kind of funny how years go by and then as soon as MS gives a crap about Halo again the game gets its first update in forever?

Like oh...I guess the decision makers care about the brand image this week...
I'm not defending 343 and I think they should have had a upper management shake-up going all the way back to the disasterous bug filled launch of MCC. But I will give them credit for working on MCC right away and getting H2A multiplayer playable with the first update and the whole multiplayer suite playable in solo que by December of 2014.

MCC had had 7 updates/patches in 2014. Some of the patches were massive and would be a wall of text if I posted them here, mainly because there was tons of shyt broken. Halo 4 Spartan Ops was added in December of 2014. 2015 had 6 updates/patches throughout the year. Halo 3 ODST was added with the May 2015 update, along with a new multiplayer map. Halo 3 ODST was paid content, but given to current MCC owners for free because the launch was such a mess.

Source: Halopedia
 
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I disagree, the original Halo was a visual spectacle and Halo would be better if it stayed that way, unless you prefer inferior visuals.
The campaign was fine for me, but they need to do something to get the MP numbers up.

Compared to what on the same consoles? Dead or Alive 3? Project Gotham? Artic Thunder? Cell Damage?

It was a good looking game but it wasn't much of a spectacle compared to those.
 

Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
Compared to what on the same consoles? Dead or Alive 3? Project Gotham? Artic Thunder? Cell Damage?

It was a good looking game but it wasn't much of a spectacle compared to those.

Its was the best looking console FPS at the time. And even compared to the games you mentioned it had its visual merits, at the time Halo was praised for its visuals.
Im sure reviews of the game would confirm this.
 
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THE DUCK

voted poster of the decade by bots
So they also haven’t sold increasingly less with every release of theirs in a time where there is now more than triple the amount of average consumers in the industry than during Bungie’s hay day? They haven’t been been increasingly removing features only to promise to add them in later? They haven’t been increasingly releasing products with less and less content, but increasingly introducing regressive MTX?

Oh my mistake then, must be a different 343.

Again focused only on what's not perfect vs what has been accomplished. We don't judge a company by its worst features, ever. By that measure almost every gaming company out there should be disbanded.

Your also completely measuring the idea that a franchise would grow with each sequel, is that the case with all other sequels from other companies? Nope.
 
Again focused only on what's not perfect vs what has been accomplished. We don't judge a company by its worst features, ever. By that measure almost every gaming company out there should be disbanded.

Your also completely measuring the idea that a franchise would grow with each sequel, is that the case with all other sequels from other companies? Nope.

Again, refusing to focus on the issues and dismiss any criticism in order to defend a company that has routinely become increasingly lazy and predatory.

Your mindless fanboy ism would be admirable if it wasn’t so sad.
 

Harlock

Member
Be sincere, do you believe this team can make a good shooter?

 

HoodWinked

Member
Definitely the worst high budget studio in operation.

What was weird is when Halo Infinite came out I was perplexed as to the positivity around it and was fine to admit wrong but time has revealed the actual reality.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
Still haven't gotten around to HI myself, but it seems like the consensus is that the game play was good, and the campaign was good, but the multi-player is not getting the updates and things expected for multiplayer shooters.

HI was rumored to be something that MS was looking to support over the long-term, like SoT. Maybe they can reinvigorate interest with updates.

Don't think I'd say the studio needs to be shut down, but maybe a fresh start would be good. I like the idea of an ID powered Halo. Whoever green lit that first e3 gameplay showing and those screenshots, maybe they should move on to more exciting projects. :messenger_grinning_smiling:
 
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BlackTron

Member
I'm not defending 343 and I think they should have had a upper management shake-up going all the way back to the disasterous bug filled launch of MCC. But I will give them credit for working on MCC right away and getting H2A multiplayer playable with the first update and the whole multiplayer suite playable in solo que by December of 2014.

MCC had had 7 updates/patches in 2014. Some of the patches were massive and would be a wall of text if I posted them here, mainly because there was tons of shyt broken. Halo 4 Spartan Ops was added in December of 2014. 2015 had 6 updates/patches throughout the year. Halo 3 ODST was added with the May 2015 update, along with a new multiplayer map. Halo 3 ODST was paid content, but given to current MCC owners for free because the launch was such a mess.

Source: Halopedia

I don't think 343 just woke up one day in 2017 and decided to fix MCC collection, I think MS lit a fire under their asses to do it for strategic reasons.

Why did they not light that same fire 30 months prior? Brain dead management.
 

DaGwaphics

Member
If he still thinks the consensus is the campaign is good, then he is already a lost cause.

Most of the Xbox players that I've interacted with have liked the single player campaign and have had positive things to say about it. 🤷‍♂️

Most of the complaints I've heard have been about the multiplayer, outside of the lack of coop at launch. Not including the comments from players that clearly dislike Halo from the jump.
 

Havoc2049

Member
I don't think 343 just woke up one day in 2017 and decided to fix MCC collection, I think MS lit a fire under their asses to do it for strategic reasons.

Why did they not light that same fire 30 months prior? Brain dead management.
Not sure why you mention 2017 and 30 months. I just showed and provided a link that 343 patched/fixed and added content to MCC all throughout 2014 & 2015.
 
Not sure why you mention 2017 and 30 months. I just showed and provided a link that 343 patched/fixed and added content to MCC all throughout 2014 & 2015.
Actually, that's not quite accurate. Yes it was mostly fixed a long time ago but in 2020 they broke it again on one console in particular, the One X. Remember when they added Reach to the MCC? Well that update also ruined the framerate and introduced AWFUL stuttering to Halo: CE and Halo 2 Anniversary campaigns on the XB1X. They are unplayable its that bad and 343, the shitty company that they are, STILL havnt fixed it to this day!

Keep in mind it used to run nicely at dynamic 4k/60 fps on the xb1x prior to that patch. They completely fucked over that segment of their fanbase. It blows my mind that MS never forced 343 to fix it considering it was fine and they broke it. Instead they released the PC version and pretty much just focused on PC and forgot about xb1x owners. The people who spent $500 for that system got screwed. I was one of those people and it wasn't until I spent another $500 on the SX that I could even play Halo 1 and 2 again. Disgusting treatment of their own fans if you ask me.
 

Havoc2049

Member
Actually, that's not quite accurate. Yes it was mostly fixed a long time ago but in 2020 they broke it again on one console in particular, the One X. Remember when they added Reach to the MCC? Well that update also ruinedframerate and introduced AWFUL stuttering to Halo: CE and Halo 2 Anniversary campaigns on the XB1X. They are unplayable its that bad and 343, the shitty company that they are, STILL havnt fixed it to this day!

Keep in mind it used to run nicely at dynamic 4k/60 fps on the xb1x prior to that patch. They completely fucked over that segment of their fanbase. It blows my mind that MS never forced 343 to fix it considering it was fine and they broke it. Instead they released the PC version and pretty much just focused on PC and forgot about xb1x owners. The people who spent $500 for that system got screwed. I was one of those people and it wasn't until I spent another $500 on the SX that I could even play Halo 1 and 2 again. Disgusting treatment of their own fans if you ask me.
It's a crime in most states and countries to play Halo CE with the fugly Anniversary graphics anyways. 😉
 

BlackTron

Member
Not sure why you mention 2017 and 30 months. I just showed and provided a link that 343 patched/fixed and added content to MCC all throughout 2014 & 2015.

It seemed to me that they released an incomplete and broken game and gradually languished along making it less broken until finally after a two year hiatus they dropped the hammer.

The timing was such that they wanted a showcase for Xbox One X and ended up revamping the whole game. That's nice, but if MS could just decide to do that because One X, couldn't they have decided to do that for all the poor SOBs that had already bought MCC?

343 did their (drawn out, dramatic) due diligence after launch, sure. But their bosses didn't bust the door down and demand it get actually done already until One X motivation. For their most flagship IP, they're idiots.
 
Uh what....? Halo Infinite is the best Halo yet and Forge is looking absolutely insane. No other FPS game has come close to Halo's gameplay, not even Bungie managed to replicate it with Destiny.

This take man. Destiny shits on Infinite. Infinite isn't the best Halo yet, far from it. Forge does look good but setting your multiplayer game back a generation in terms of graphics and having your community build maps on a gimped non-dev software tool isn't going to regain the crown of FPS nor the sustained masses to play long term. Mods support should have been here already. I hope mods release with Forge.

Bungie moved more into Shadowrun territory with Destiny and introduced PvE strikes, shared spaces and loot that affects gameplay while innovating with Gambit, RAIDS, dungeons and UI presentation. What did Infinite innovate or evolve? It's a step backwards and a repeat of Halo 5 chaotic BTB or esports split again. I didn't even go into the wonderful art and exploration of Destiny 1 & 2 vs Infinite's bland and repetitive one biome.

How exactly do you think Infinite is the best Halo yet? Fuck me.
 
Oh boy how do we tell him, GAF?
If he still thinks the consensus is the campaign is good, then he is already a lost cause.
Maybe there is a disconnect here but I thought the campaign was good, and the overall consenus was positive, at least for those who actually played it. There are always going to be flaws in any game. A lack of biome diversity was a big complaint that comes to mind with Infinite. I was also disappointed that we didn't get to see more of the endless. The biggest complaint however has been the lack of new content or frequency of new content, but that shouldn't prevent someone from enjoying a playthrough of the campaign in the slightest.
 

THE DUCK

voted poster of the decade by bots
Maybe there is a disconnect here but I thought the campaign was good, and the overall consenus was positive, at least for those who actually played it. There are always going to be flaws in any game. A lack of biome diversity was a big complaint that comes to mind with Infinite. I was also disappointed that we didn't get to see more of the endless. The biggest complaint however has been the lack of new content or frequency of new content, but that shouldn't prevent someone from enjoying a playthrough of the campaign in the slightest
Exactly, it was fun to play through. And if we are being honest, even halo 1-5 had issues with lack of diversity and reused content. (Yes even the almighty ones made by bungie)
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
They all had big sections of the game that basically repeated assets/levels.
Not quite the same thing mate, some sections had some reuse of assets made a bigger deal, tons more biomes variety and more unique game sections underplayed. As long as you are aware you are doing that… fine I guess 🤷‍♂️.
 

THE DUCK

voted poster of the decade by bots
Not quite the same thing mate, some sections had some reuse of assets made a bigger deal, tons more biomes variety and more unique game sections underplayed. As long as you are aware you are doing that… fine I guess 🤷‍♂️.

I'm aware there are a lot of the same things in infinite, but it makes up for some of this with the flexibility and open world exploration.
Halo 1/2/3 corridors where at times super repetitive. To the point that it actually stands out on a replay vs modern fps. All great games still as the gameplay is outstanding.
 

samoilaaa

Member
MS first party definitely has a management problem. Matt Booty isn't getting the job done and now with all these acquisitions they need more help to manage them.
yeah , its been so long since we heard anything from avowed , fable , perfect dark , everwild and many more

only rumours that devs keep leaving

i have a weakness for medieval fantasy rpgs and it would make me really sad to see avowed and fable fail
 
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Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
I'm aware there are a lot of the same things in infinite, but it makes up for some of this with the flexibility and open world exploration.
Halo 1/2/3 corridors where at times super repetitive. To the point that it actually stands out on a replay vs modern fps. All great games still as the gameplay is outstanding.
Partially, the world being open or semi open does not mean is diverse, I named Halo 3 specifically as I recently played on my XSX and it is not full of repetitive corridors and game design having improved is not a substitute for level variety/different biomes/etc… empty large sandboxes are not better than a large variety of more individually crafted smaller connected areas.
 

THE DUCK

voted poster of the decade by bots
Partially, the world being open or semi open does not mean is diverse, I named Halo 3 specifically as I recently played on my XSX and it is not full of repetitive corridors and game design having improved is not a substitute for level variety/different biomes/etc… empty large sandboxes are not better than a large variety of more individually crafted smaller connected areas.

Don't take my word for it......this was just the first reference I could find in a review....I'm not the first or the last to say this.


"What still doesn’t work is the repetitive, often confusing to navigate interior levels. Working out where you’ve been and where you need to go is made maddeningly difficult by their being so much repetition in the look of each interior; it’s an issue that plagued the first two games and is often cited as one of the reasons why The Library is so hated – but here it truly reaches a nadir with the ‘Cortana’ stage. I don’t know why The Library continues to be so villified when ‘Cortana’ exists; it’s truly an awful exercise in baffling, infuriating design. There’s more of the backtracking through already repetitive levels that we saw examples of in the previous two games as well; honestly, it really makes me wonder whether the magazines and websites doling out perfect 10s to the Halo games ever actually tried to fully play through the campaigns in their entirety."
 

Ozriel

Member
Halo Infinite was SAID to be them "going back to their roots for fans" and is everything BUT the roots for fans.
MCC was fucked up because 343i though you can just slap a Wrapper on top of all the Halo games and be done with it only to find out that especially those old engines were already back then hold together by glue, that when you introduce yet another layer on top, it all just burns by itself.

But MCC isn’t fucked up at the moment, has more content than ever and looks much better than ever.

And yet, not too many people are playing this.

The truth many folks won’t admit is that 343 didn’t deal the lethal blow to Halo’s popularity. That was Call of Duty, and Halo’s significant decline already started in the days of Bungie and Reach.

Halo 4’s MP was polarizing and significantly hastened the exodus, but it was inevitable.
 

CuNi

Member
But MCC isn’t fucked up at the moment, has more content than ever and looks much better than ever.

And yet, not too many people are playing this.

The truth many folks won’t admit is that 343 didn’t deal the lethal blow to Halo’s popularity. That was Call of Duty, and Halo’s significant decline already started in the days of Bungie and Reach.

Halo 4’s MP was polarizing and significantly hastened the exodus, but it was inevitable.

There is a difference between a game collection being fucked on release and a whole new game being in a horrible state that was touted to be "the platform for the next 10 years of Halo".

I mean, the statement is true if they mean 10 years of fixing the initial release.
 
Halo 3, Halo 2, and yes Halo 1 lacked environment diversity compared to Infinite? You sure? 🫤
Yeah I did a double take on that comment. Those games are all KNOWN for their excellent diversity of environments. Same with Reach and even Halo 5. Halo CE is the only one I can sorta agree with.

Halo Infinite is a damn joke in this respect. Add to that a lack of combat encounter diversity and a complete lack of set pieces. Infinite feels like a shell of a game.
 

Ozriel

Member
There is a difference between a game collection being fucked on release and a whole new game being in a horrible state that was touted to be "the platform for the next 10 years of Halo".

I mean, the statement is true if they mean 10 years of fixing the initial release.

the MCC wasn’t ‘fucked up’ when it released on PC and yet daily concurrents are well under 10k.

Halo Infinite’s current state doesn’t mean it can’t go on to be a long term platform for Halo. The key issues it faces is content, polarizing progression system and some delayed features. Those are in the works, including an extensive battle Royale mode, and some of the features being designed like Forge are more ambitious than we’ve ever seen in a Halo game.

343 has to contend with a fanbase that’s often toxic and given to hyperbole. See the reaction in this forum when they disclosed they wouldn’t have matchmaking for campaign co-op. So much vitriol about them being ‘incompetent’ until it became clear that no Halo game had ever had that feature.

And now we have commentary about whether or not they should be closed, and how they’re the worst AAA studio out there. Meanwhile nobody is saying this about DICE that put out a worse Battlefield game. Or even the guys behind COD Vanguard. All games much lower rated than Infinite!
 

CuNi

Member
the MCC wasn’t ‘fucked up’ when it released on PC and yet daily concurrents are well under 10k.

Halo Infinite’s current state doesn’t mean it can’t go on to be a long term platform for Halo. The key issues it faces is content, polarizing progression system and some delayed features. Those are in the works, including an extensive battle Royale mode, and some of the features being designed like Forge are more ambitious than we’ve ever seen in a Halo game.

343 has to contend with a fanbase that’s often toxic and given to hyperbole. See the reaction in this forum when they disclosed they wouldn’t have matchmaking for campaign co-op. So much vitriol about them being ‘incompetent’ until it became clear that no Halo game had ever had that feature.

And now we have commentary about whether or not they should be closed, and how they’re the worst AAA studio out there. Meanwhile nobody is saying this about DICE that put out a worse Battlefield game. Or even the guys behind COD Vanguard. All games much lower rated than Infinite!

I agree with you that some people are to extreme by demanding closure as well as some people using any little thing (coop matchmaking) trying to spin it as them being completely incompetent.
I wrote this on the waypoint-forum once before, that I think those radical voices come from the fact that no one seems to acknowledge 343i shortcomings and issues so far when it comes to management.

I'd assume you too agree that Halo Infinite is by far not the best Halo game and could have been much much better if managed correctly. All their games so far had technical issues and Infinite is just the pinnacle of a delayed game that misses core-features like co-op, mission replay etc. and for being called a GaaS (Multiplayer part) it received barely any content besides cosmetics or shop items.
Even on here people voice completely valid criticism, yet you will rarely hear anyone in a higher position at 343i acknowledge that, and I think that makes individuals lash out and demand closure of the whole company or certain people to be fired.

Hell, even I'd like to see some consequence happen, it doesn't have to be firing someone, but a letter acknowledging that they fucked up, would be already a step in the right direction.
Infinite is undeniably in a bad position. I don't claim they can't ever recover from that. If No Man Sky has taught us anything is, that if devs really want, even "dead" games can be saved.
 
People are still misreading the OP which says the opposite of letting the staff go and to move them somewhere else.

the MCC wasn’t ‘fucked up’ when it released on PC and yet daily concurrents are well under 10k.

Halo MCC "released" 5 years late and what PC gamers received wasn't the actual game, they received each individual game in the collection gradually one at a time starting with Halo Reach. It was a combination of being late and insulting whatever fanbase they could have gotten to by Halo MCC on PC that killed it on the platform.
 

Ozriel

Member
Halo MCC "released" 5 years late and what PC gamers received wasn't the actual game, they received each individual game in the collection gradually one at a time starting with Halo Reach. It was a combination of being late and insulting whatever fanbase they could have gotten to by Halo MCC on PC that killed it on the platform.

Makes as much sense as claiming that Spiderman remastered on PC was 4 years late.

I think your post pretty much sums up what I’ve been saying. People will make up the most outlandish narrative to shit on this dev. Imagine you trying to pass off the release of the individual games as an ‘insult’.

The basic facts are that the classic Halo games are on PC, in 4K HDR 120+ fps and wide FoV. And yet it isn’t breaking playtime records at the moment.
 

clarky

Member
Hell, even I'd like to see some consequence happen, it doesn't have to be firing someone, but a letter acknowledging that they fucked up, would be already a step in the right direction.
They've litteraly got rid of most of the upper management since Staten took over.

You don't really think they all just went on "to explore new and exciting career opportunities" do you? They all got dumped because of the fucked up development of the game is my guess. Now we are stuck while they attempt to right the ship. lets see what happens next.
 
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This take man. Destiny shits on Infinite. Infinite isn't the best Halo yet, far from it. Forge does look good but setting your multiplayer game back a generation in terms of graphics and having your community build maps on a gimped non-dev software tool isn't going to regain the crown of FPS nor the sustained masses to play long term. Mods support should have been here already. I hope mods release with Forge.

Bungie moved more into Shadowrun territory with Destiny and introduced PvE strikes, shared spaces and loot that affects gameplay while innovating with Gambit, RAIDS, dungeons and UI presentation. What did Infinite innovate or evolve? It's a step backwards and a repeat of Halo 5 chaotic BTB or esports split again. I didn't even go into the wonderful art and exploration of Destiny 1 & 2 vs Infinite's bland and repetitive one biome.

How exactly do you think Infinite is the best Halo yet? Fuck me.
Destiny was considered a failure the first 12 months after release as well until Bungie made huge updates and changes to the overall experience which included replacing Peter Dinklage as VO for "The Ghost" and making the loot progression less farm-centric. Don't you remember all the complaints about the story being a convoluted mess that was only explained if you read Grimoire cards on Bungie.net or the loot cave fiasco? You Halo Infinite haters sure do have rose-tinted glasses for Destiny all of a sudden.
 
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clarky

Member
Destiny was considered a failure the first 12 months after release as well until Bungie made huge updates and changes to the overall experience which included replacing Peter Dinklage as VO for "The Ghost" and making the loot progression less farm-centric. Don't you remember all the complaints about the story being a convoluted mess that was only explained if you read Grimoire cards on Bungie.net or the loot cave fiasco? You Halo Infinite haters sure do have rose-tinted glasses for Destiny all of a sudden.
Yup this guy knows whats what.

If it wasn't for vault of glass id wager Destiny would have died a long time ago. That raid basically saved the game. Rightfully so it was awesome. The rest of the game sucked though, for a long time. It took them what 7 years to get to this point? And still we only get one new pvp map in 2 years.

Same with D2 it was fucking shit in its original form.
 
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