I believe it's time to disband 343 Industries.

Apocryphon

Gold Member
is it not a true observation? a lot of the flack on this board seems to come from non halo fans
there's like 01011001 01011001 's thread which reads like the kind of thing a superfan would write but i have my doubts if he even likes halo or not, and most of the time a lot of the people citing halo infinite as a shitty game (which by the way, includes me so maybe consider hearing me out before you start slinging insults) tend to not seem to like halo in general
I'm gonna need to see those receipts bru. I mean, you say you think Infinite is shitty but when you see other people posting negative opinions about the game you put it down to people shitposting? It is a good game or not?
 

01011001

Gold Member
Games are about gameplay first and 343 never fumbled when it comes to gameplay. In the FPS space they are top 5 developers from a gameplay standpoint. Infinite is a superb game and mediocre service. It should have been a traditional mp game and not gone with the service aspects but it’s still the tightest online shooter out right now. Disbanding them doesn’t make sense to me when they make good games. It’s not a situation where they’re making crap.

Halo Infinite has one of THE WORST controller aiming of any currently available competitive shooter on the market.

it hides that fact by also having THE MOST RIDICULOUS aim assist mechanics of any currently available competitive shooter on the market.

a shooter with bad aiming controls can not be classified as a game with good gameplay.
it's even bad compared to other Halo games due to a weirdly compressed version of Halo 2's reaction curve (which would already be completely outdated compared to good contemporary shooters)

don't make me go into PowerPoint presentation mode tho, it's late...
 
Hopefully once the ActiBlizzard deal goes through Halo can be handed to one of the teams there. I'd welcome any change so long as it's out of the hands of 343i. I feel like they've been given ample time and leash to prove they can handle the IP, but Halo 4 was probably the best product they put out. Infinite is embarrassing and should not be in the state it's in.
 
is it not a true observation? a lot of the flack on this board seems to come from non halo fans
there's like 01011001 01011001 's thread which reads like the kind of thing a superfan would write but i have my doubts if he even likes halo or not, and most of the time a lot of the people citing halo infinite as a shitty game (which by the way, includes me so maybe consider hearing me out before you start slinging insults) tend to not seem to like halo in general

No it is not a true observation. It is a delusion as I said. Trying to claim people are not “true fans” or “hate the franchise” because they are critical is asinine. This is something a mindless warrior does - which I don’t see you being.
 
Ah yes, because people were tired of being sold lies and given subpar releases are “faux-fans” :pie_eyeroll::pie_eyeroll:

Reality is, most people have standards. Just because you are a shill that will accept whatever crap they give you doesn’t mean others will.
Lies? There is a difference between setting lofty goes which aren't met and intentionally lying. If you think 343 is a bunch of liars then that's your own problem. The point I was making is that tmcc is everything we could have hoped for. Anyone that isn't willing to play TMCC simply because it launched in a broken mess and took years to finally fix is just being petty and bitter at this point. If you love Halo, enjoy the game and move on. And rofl at calling me a shill.

No it is not a true observation. It is a delusion as I said. Trying to claim people are not “true fans” or “hate the franchise” because they are critical is asinine. This is something a mindless warrior does - which I don’t see you being.
I'm saying those who aren't willing to play Halo anymore, if their only reason for not playing is due to bitterness, are pretty sorry fans. If you loved to play any of the Halos, CE through Reach, but aren't willing to play the master chief collection then I don't know what to say.
 
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Lies? There is a difference between setting lofty goes which aren't met and intentionally lying. If you think 343 is a bunch of liars then that's your own problem. The point I was making is that tmcc is everything we could have hoped for. Anyone that isn't willing to play TMCC simply because it launched in a broken mess and took years to finally fix is just being petty and bitter at this point. If you love Halo, enjoy the game and move on. And rofl at calling me a shill.
You *literally* called people “faux“ halo fans because they were unhappy/pissed that it took *years* to get MCC to an acceptable state. So yes, you are a mindless shill. And yes, it was also outright lies from 343 about what the final product would be. 10110101 has already made numerous posts in other Halo threads that explained the numerous lies that 343 have made over the years.

I'm saying those who aren't willing to play Halo anymore, if their only reason for not playing is due to bitterness, are pretty sorry fans. If you loved to play any of the Halos, CE through Reach, but aren't willing to play the master chief collection then I don't know what to say.
Mate, we can all see your posts. You can keep trying to make excuses, but no one is buying it.
 

BlackTron

Member
MCC was unplayable for TWO YEARS. Anyone giving them a pass because they eventually fixed all the issues with the collection are in denial.

Better late than never, but the way it was fixed and the timing of it made it obvious that they only fixed it in order to begin repairing Halo's reputation to hype Infinite.

So they could have fixed their most important Xbox One game that people had already paid for any time they wanted, but Microsoft decided to hold back those resources until they had another motive.

It comes back to the bungled management that has decimated the franchise. Absolute idiots.
 

CuNi

Member
On paper they are. In the eye's of the average disgruntled ex-Halo fan they are not.

I'm somewhere in the middle.

I don't know if they are even on paper.
They don't burn money, but they don't break sales record after sales record.
Halo 4 and 5 have declined in score with critics and Infinite only reached the same as 4.
While Bungies Halo's all were above 90, 343i only managed 87, 84 and 87 respectively.

When we talk about successful companies on here, I think nearly everyone doesn't mean the traditional "do they make or burn money" but rather if the games are good or if they are not.
And 343i has so far been known to only go downhill with the franchise.
 

clarky

Member
I don't know if they are even on paper.
They don't burn money, but they don't break sales record after sales record.
Halo 4 and 5 have declined in score with critics and Infinite only reached the same as 4.
While Bungies Halo's all were above 90, 343i only managed 87, 84 and 87 respectively.

When we talk about successful companies on here, I think nearly everyone doesn't mean the traditional "do they make or burn money" but rather if the games are good or if they are not.
And 343i has so far been known to only go downhill with the franchise.
You just proved my point. 87, 84, 87 and the all sell well. Some of the best sales figures in the series.

To be fair to them, Bungie Halo is a near impossible act to follow.
 

Radical_3d

Member
The other day I was drunk in my friend's house and Halo 5 didn't look half boring. I'll give it a try. The open world design of Infinite is too much for me, tho. While they keep updating the Master Chief Collection I'm happy. To me Halo died after ODST. Reach was already an unbearable Destiny alpha.
 

CuNi

Member
You just proved my point. 87, 84, 87 and the all sell well. Some of the best sales figures in the series.

To be fair to them, Bungie Halo is a near impossible act to follow.

Some of the best figures in the series?
What are you talking about?
All of Bungies games were above 90.
Their lowest was Reach with 91, but Halo 1, 2 and 3 had 97, 95 and 94 respectively.
 

clarky

Member
Some of the best figures in the series?
What are you talking about?
All of Bungies games were above 90.
Their lowest was Reach with 91, but Halo 1, 2 and 3 had 97, 95 and 94 respectively.
Sales figures. Read my post?. Chill.
 
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clarky

Member
The other day I was drunk in my friend's house and Halo 5 didn't look half boring. I'll give it a try. The open world design of Infinite is too much for me, tho. While they keep updating the Master Chief Collection I'm happy. To me Halo died after ODST. Reach was already an unbearable Destiny alpha.
Yeah didn't care for Reach myself either personally. Campaigns decent but the MP wasn't for me.

I like Infinite, the campaign is great and the MP fun enough but has a ton of issues. They really should have delayed another year. Although I've got to be careful with this opinion around these parts as i'll get accused of being a shill, in love with plastic box or something but If your playing with a friend the co-op campaign is out shortly, its not really an open world game and I'd highly recommend it.
 

Ozriel

Member
Some of the best figures in the series?
What are you talking about?
All of Bungies games were above 90.
Their lowest was Reach with 91, but Halo 1, 2 and 3 had 97, 95 and 94 respectively.

But Bungie left the franchise and split from Microsoft.
So now they’ve gotten another studio to take over the reins. And if the net impact of the transition on Metacritic was only a few points dropped from Bungie’s last Halo game, it’s a very good outcome. 87% Metacritic is a ‘great’ rating by their scale.
 

S0ULZB0URNE

Member
Games are about gameplay first and 343 never fumbled when it comes to gameplay. In the FPS space they are top 5 developers from a gameplay standpoint. ts but it’s still the tightest online shooter out right now.
 

Eddie-Griffin

Cancer the womens baby so we can pregnant the panda, we are looking for igloos tonight Are you sexy?
LTTP but I'll tell Phil you want to let everyone go.

Your still late because the Op doesn't even say this.

it makes me wonder if some people here actually WANT 343 employees on the street, but are acting like they don't.

Better late than never, but the way it was fixed and the timing of it made it obvious that they only fixed it in order to begin repairing Halo's reputation to hype Infinite.

You seem to have forgotten about Halo 5. The game was moving fast in repairs running into new issues and even getting another studio on top of the 4 or 5 they already had to try and remove negative brand reception so that Halo 5 wouldn't be impacted.

Some of the best sales figures in the series.

What numbers are you comparing?
 

clarky

Member
What numbers are you comparing?
Halo CE - 6 million
Halo 2 - 9 Million
Halo 3 - 12 Million
Halo: Reach - 9.5 million
Halo 4 - 9.75 million
Halo 5 - 9.25 million estimated.
Halo Infinite - Dunno.

Seems pretty successful to me. I'm at work so don't have time to dig out full sources but just a quick google from numerous different places all seem to roughly agree. If I was to hazard a guess I'd say Halo 5 has been the most successful title in the series when you factor in the MTX on top, although i've just pulled this out of my ass, it seems a reasonable assumption if these figures are correct.
 
like yes, put thousands of people out of a job just cuz they made a bunch of bad game
Their job is to make good games.

I think that the inability to produce whatever you are supposed to produce should be ground to firing... ground breaking and bold I know!

Otherwise, hire me, I can make games that suck just as well as they do, maybe they would be even worse!
 
Halo CE - 6 million
Halo 2 - 9 Million
Halo 3 - 12 Million
Halo: Reach - 9.5 million
Halo 4 - 9.75 million
Halo 5 - 9.25 million estimated.
Halo Infinite - Dunno.

Seems pretty successful to me. I'm at work so don't have time to dig out full sources but just a quick google from numerous different places all seem to roughly agree. If I was to hazard a guess I'd say Halo 5 has been the most successful title in the series when you factor in the MTX on top, although i've just pulled this out of my ass, it seems a reasonable assumption if these figures are correct.

Comparing pre-AgeOfWii sales to post-AgeOfWii sales is disingenuous at best. Gaming was not considered a heavily popular thing for decades. It wasn’t until around the age of the DS and Wii that things started to change and gaming became “mainstream”. So of course sales prior to that timeframe would sell worse overall.

However, also compare just how massive gaming is nowadays and still how little the series sells. They have never reached the same level as Halo 3. That isn’t good. They have actively *decreased* in sales ever since as well.
 
The thing with 343 and Infinite is, it was developed for new fans and old fans by combining classic gameplay and new gameplay into one. I honestly think if they had just stuck with Halo 5 gameplay and kept it as pistol starts, we would not be having as many issues as we are.

As a prime example, there's a former pro called Naded who only streams Masterchief Collection. He ONLY wants classic Halo and thinks anything but classic settings is trash. The guy is 32 years old and can't seem to move on. He pulls around 120 viewers when he streams MCC and only complains about Halo Infinite and 343. He was invited to be one of those Forerunner guys who played the game and gave feedback even though he doesn't like anything but classic settings.

Why is 343 inviting him for feedback on Infinite when he stated since Halo 5 days that he does not like anything but classic gameplay?

They need to stop trying to appeal to the boomer crowd who can't move on from classic and just stick to the new vision of Halo. If people want classic Halo, they can go play MCC.

The big issue with 343 as a whole is they tied to please everyone and that NEVER works. No matter what field you work in, you CANNOT please everyone. Pick a vision and develop that. If the oldies can't adjust to new Halo, they can go play MCC and never move on.
Wtf are you smoking? 343 has barely ever catered to the "classic halo fan." The only examples I can think of are the MCC and somewhat Infinite. One of 343's biggest critics has been straying too far from the classic look and feel of Halo.
 

Himuro

Member
You foolishly believe it's 343 when it's a Microsoft Studios wide problem. Look at Gears. Look at the Retro games fantasy game that's in development hell. It's a Microsoft problem that will happen whether 343 is on Halo or not with corporate breathing down their neck.

Do you also think just about anyone can replicate the quality of the original Halo games, which are imo the greatest fps games of all time? Not likely. The quality of Halo 1-3 is so high that just about anyone taking over after Bungie left would be a disappointment. That's not to give 343 a pass but it's to say Halo fans' expectations are too damn high.
 
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Z O N E

Member
Wtf are you smoking? 343 has barely ever catered to the "classic halo fan." The only examples I can think of are the MCC and somewhat Infinite. One of 343's biggest critics has been straying too far from the classic look and feel of Halo.
Halo Infinite was literally them "going back to their roots for fans". MCC was a fuck up at the start because there were SO MANY people involved doing different bits that when it came together, well it dun fucked up.

The reason why Infinite feels more like classic is because they wanted to go "back to the roots".
 
Just give 343i another ip or something no need to disband them. Give Halo to the guys who made Doom or Wolfenstein. If the Activision deal pushes through then give halo to some of their studios.
Well wait a minute, 343 are Microsofts biggest studio I believe and they have struggled through the last decade to produce content within a reasonable time period.

Significantly downsize them if they're put on to something else but the smarter option would be to keep Infinite as MP only and support it with a quarter of the team. The rest of 343 start fresh with a brand new engine (UE5, Forza Tech, ID Tech etc) and create a new Halo that is not the same game I played back in 2001. Every Halo (although things are added) is fundamentally the same game. Just create the best first person shooter they can without all the it needs this or doesn't need that crap.
 
Halo Infinite was literally them "going back to their roots for fans". MCC was a fuck up at the start because there were SO MANY people involved doing different bits that when it came together, well it dun fucked up.

The reason why Infinite feels more like classic is because they wanted to go "back to the roots".
Which is exactly my point. Hardly anyone liked Halo 5, so why would you think doubling down on it would save the franchise?
 

Himuro

Member
Well, I think it already kind of is. If you've been paying attention to 343i since Halo Infinite's release, you'd have seen a pretty steady exodus from the studio. The individual in a Senior position, responsible for the atrocious progression systems, exited the company, for example. They took a small number of 343i's employees with them, and setup shop making mobile games. Their CTO was also recently replaced by an old-guard Halo developer and Bungie vet, which should help immensely.

Looking over the last year or so, after the disastrous Halo Infinite Gameplay reveal, Joseph Staten joined the team, and he has quickly become the face of 343i. Staten has been Microsoft's fixer for a while, and I'm betting he got a fancy big cheque to get Halo back in line. Bonnie Ross is MIA, Kiki Wolfkill is off in TV land, and Frank O'Connor seems to have disappeared into another dimension. This is what happens in corpo land when you've royally fucked up. Forcing the Xbox Series X|S to launch without a game, and forcing Microsoft to pay for all those timed marketing deals they'd already invested in? And then launching the worst live service since Anthem, one that's performing so badly that they're forced to add microtransactions into eight year old games to make up the missing revenue? Yeah, that's about as big a fuck up as you can get in this space. In these scenarios, you're not fired - you simply fade into the background, before you're allowed to graciously "move on to new exciting projects".

All's quiet on the outside, but inside, I'm betting 343i is a killing floor. Hopefully the company that emerges is that much leaner and hungry to earn back the goodwill that 343i burned.
Fascinating insight.
 

Eddie-Griffin

Cancer the womens baby so we can pregnant the panda, we are looking for igloos tonight Are you sexy?
Comparing pre-AgeOfWii sales to post-AgeOfWii sales is disingenuous at best. Gaming was not considered a heavily popular thing for decades. It wasn’t until around the age of the DS and Wii that things started to change and gaming became “mainstream”.

What the heck are you talking about? That was what the 360/PS3 were, the Wii had a different audience that split once they were done with the system, those guys aren't buying consoles anymore.

Halo CE - 6 million
Halo 2 - 9 Million
Halo 3 - 12 Million
Halo: Reach - 9.5 million
Halo 4 - 9.75 million
Halo 5 - 9.25 million estimated.
Halo Infinite - Dunno.

Seems pretty successful to me. I'm at work so don't have time to dig out full sources but just a quick google from numerous different places all seem to roughly agree. If I was to hazard a guess I'd say Halo 5 has been the most successful title in the series when you factor in the MTX on top, although i've just pulled this out of my ass, it seems a reasonable assumption if these figures are correct.

Halo 3 is 14 or so. The Halo 4 and Halo 5 numbers seem to be made up.
 

CuNi

Member
Halo Infinite was literally them "going back to their roots for fans". MCC was a fuck up at the start because there were SO MANY people involved doing different bits that when it came together, well it dun fucked up.

The reason why Infinite feels more like classic is because they wanted to go "back to the roots".

Halo Infinite was SAID to be them "going back to their roots for fans" and is everything BUT the roots for fans.
MCC was fucked up because 343i though you can just slap a Wrapper on top of all the Halo games and be done with it only to find out that especially those old engines were already back then hold together by glue, that when you introduce yet another layer on top, it all just burns by itself.
 

ZehDon

Member
Halo CE - 6 million
Halo 2 - 9 Million
Halo 3 - 12 Million
Halo: Reach - 9.5 million
Halo 4 - 9.75 million
Halo 5 - 9.25 million estimated.
Halo Infinite - Dunno.

Seems pretty successful to me. I'm at work so don't have time to dig out full sources but just a quick google from numerous different places all seem to roughly agree. If I was to hazard a guess I'd say Halo 5 has been the most successful title in the series when you factor in the MTX on top, although i've just pulled this out of my ass, it seems a reasonable assumption if these figures are correct.
Can you provide your sources for the sales figures please. Microsoft listed Halo 3 with 14.5 million sales, so these figures all seem off.

Microsoft never reported full Halo 5 sales figures. What we do know is that after three months, it sold 5 million units. With the worst word of mouth of any game in the series, I'm not sure how it would achieve an additional 4.25 million units. I believe Micheal Pachter once estimated that it was "in line", but, I believe it was based on dollar figures rather than sales, so that likely includes microtransaction revenue.
 

Raonak

Gold Member
Let them work on something else.

A studio created to endlessly churn out halo games (an IP they didn't originally make) is such a horrible idea.
Both them and the gears studio need to make something else.

Let halo rest and come back to it when people start missing it.
 
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What the heck are you talking about? That was what the 360/PS3 were, the Wii had a different audience that split once they were done with the system, those guys aren't buying consoles anymore.



Halo 3 is 14 or so. The Halo 4 and Halo 5 numbers seem to be made up.

Its OK, Voost. We all know you aren’t the brightest bulb in the tool shed. The gaming audience increased dramatically across the board during the Wii/DS boom. Gaming became less stigmatized and more people jumped into the medium. This literally cannot be denied.
 

Eddie-Griffin

Cancer the womens baby so we can pregnant the panda, we are looking for igloos tonight Are you sexy?
Its OK, Voost. We all know you aren’t the brightest bulb in the tool shed. The gaming audience increased dramatically across the board during the Wii/DS boom. Gaming became less stigmatized and more people jumped into the medium. This literally cannot be denied.

When looking at YouTube videos, streaming, and Esports being taken seriously, the Wii and DS had nothing to do with it. The Xbox 360 and PS3 are the ones that destigmatized gaming. The people who brought the Wii did not see it the same way as they saw the PS3 and the 360, that was one of the reasons they brought the Wii in the first place. if the Xbox 360 and PS3 didn't break ground, and the Wii became the standard, gaming outside of Wii Sports and Wii Fit would still be stigmatized.

You have it completely wrong on which consoles actually caused the destigmatization in the first place. Everything people compete, watch, stream, and participate in gaming today didn't come from the Wii. People aren't taking Esports seriously because of the Wii, the rise in female gamers playing Fornite and COD didn't come from the Wii either.
 

Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
They did a good job with infinite.
What they need to do to make it great is for the next section of Halo, is revamp there engine for Xbox Series and PC only. Maybe remake the current infinite visuals to bring it up the standard of the new Halo section.
Halo needs to be a visual showcase for the generation.
 
Can I just chime in and say that, after being spoiled by the cutscene direction in Halos 4 and 5, and EXTREMELY spoiled by the cinematics in Halo 2 Anniversary + Halos 4 and 5, the cutscenes of Halo Infinite are a complete disgrace?

Like I literally hate people who want to ruin good cinematography, a polished look, and dazzling visuals, just because they want to be able to see their current weapon, or “immersion,” or maybe want 343i to include the option for MC to wear bikini armor and for it to show in a cutscene.
 

Apocryphon

Gold Member
They did a good job with infinite.
What they need to do to make it great is for the next section of Halo, is revamp there engine for Xbox Series and PC only. Maybe remake the current infinite visuals to bring it up the standard of the new Halo section.
Halo needs to be a visual showcase for the generation.
Halo has never been about visual fidelity. They all look good at launch, but have never been the graphical spectacle of their respective generations. Infinite looks fine, what it needs is actual content and not the nonsense drivel they have given us so far. Infinites campaign is the weakest so far, a bit of a feat after Halos 4 and 5 🤣
 

Louay

Member
just remove Halo IP from them, don't let them even work on tabletop halo Game. let them work on new IP. i think this is better for devs and Halo IP
 
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When looking at YouTube videos, streaming, and Esports being taken seriously, the Wii and DS had nothing to do with it. The Xbox 360 and PS3 are the ones that destigmatized gaming. The people who brought the Wii did not see it the same way as they saw the PS3 and the 360, that was one of the reasons they brought the Wii in the first place. if the Xbox 360 and PS3 didn't break ground, and the Wii became the standard, gaming outside of Wii Sports and Wii Fit would still be stigmatized.

You have it completely wrong on which consoles actually caused the destigmatization in the first place. Everything people compete, watch, stream, and participate in gaming today didn't come from the Wii. People aren't taking Esports seriously because of the Wii, the rise in female gamers playing Fornite and COD didn't come from the Wii either.

Laugh Lol GIF
 

THE DUCK

voted poster of the decade by bots
To call 343i a "highly successful studio" also shows the true intentions of the poster.

Yep, the intentions of actually demonstrating things as they are vs just complaining about everything. By every basic measurement of success, 343i is a highly successful studio.
 
Yep, the intentions of actually demonstrating things as they are vs just complaining about everything. By every basic measurement of success, 343i is a highly successful studio.

Yep, highly successful. Creating releases that sell worse than the last - selling less content than ever, constantly lying and crying about how the fan base is “evil” and “harassing” them just so they can get an out from actual responsibility. Truly a successful studio. /s
 

THE DUCK

voted poster of the decade by bots
Yep, highly successful. Creating releases that sell worse than the last - selling less content than ever, constantly lying and crying about how the fan base is “evil” and “harassing” them just so they can get an out from actual responsibility. Truly a successful studio. /s
Revisionist history at its finest. Says nothing of the sheer volume of sales they are successfully responsible (selling over 30 million games)

Constantly lying and calling the fanbase evil? What a bunch of bs. Out of the thousands of positive communications with customers and you pick 2 negative ones? Please.
 
Revisionist history at its finest. Says nothing of the sheer volume of sales they are successfully responsible (selling over 30 million games)

Constantly lying and calling the fanbase evil? What a bunch of bs. Out of the thousands of positive communications with customers and you pick 2 negative ones? Please.

Irony at its finest. Projection, refusal to look at the actual history of the company. Reality shows a completely different story than the delusion you keep trying to push.
 
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Havoc2049

Member
MCC was unplayable for TWO YEARS. Anyone giving them a pass because they eventually fixed all the issues with the collection are in denial.

Better late than never, but the way it was fixed and the timing of it made it obvious that they only fixed it in order to begin repairing Halo's reputation to hype Infinite.

So they could have fixed their most important Xbox One game that people had already paid for any time they wanted, but Microsoft decided to hold back those resources until they had another motive.

It comes back to the bungled management that has decimated the franchise. Absolute idiots.
Being a little hyperbolic about the history of Halo MCC. 343 was working on MCC as soon as they realized the launch wasn't going as planned. Ya, it was a glitch filled mess, but H2A multiplayer was patched and started working on a fairly regular basis a week after launch. The first big patch was in December and multiplayer became fairly stable. The next big patch in March of 2015 made everything more stable, especially as a team. There were glitches at time, but the campaign worked from day one and co-op became stable (but still a little glitchy) with like the first or second patch in 2014.
 

Sosokrates

Report me if I continue to console war
Halo has never been about visual fidelity. They all look good at launch, but have never been the graphical spectacle of their respective generations. Infinite looks fine, what it needs is actual content and not the nonsense drivel they have given us so far. Infinites campaign is the weakest so far, a bit of a feat after Halos 4 and 5 🤣
I disagree, the original Halo was a visual spectacle and Halo would be better if it stayed that way, unless you prefer inferior visuals.
The campaign was fine for me, but they need to do something to get the MP numbers up.
 
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