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ESPN: "Spygate to Deflategate: Inside what split the NFL and Patriots apart"

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The story that will never end.

I'd rather hear more about the whole concussion issues and the NFLs complicity, or even about Aaron Hernandez, than listen to another one of these idiotic editorials about the what ifs going on in New England.

This is coming from a Giants fan, mind you.
 
They really aren't ever going to let this end, are they? People keep lapping it up, too. It's unbelievable. I've been a Bucs fan since the 90s. I've been rooting for the Chiefs for a few years. Hard Knocks has got me rooting for the Texans this year. And now, I'll be rooting for the Patriots as well.

Don't take this the wrong way, but you are literally the worst person alive.
 

ParityBit

Member

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
If anyone ever wanted a sliding doors moment with what could have happened to the NBA during the Donaghy scandal - Spygate appears to be heading in that direction.
 

vikki

Member
Its not always easy to actually prove when someone is cheating or breaking the rules without their compliance or admission, neither of which the Pats are willing to provide.

Keep holding onto the faith though Dragon!

Because the reputation is forever ruined and all of their accomplishments are now forever tainted. It must really kill Pats fans inside that they think they have the best team, coach and qb of all time and that it is never going to be officially recognized outside of New England. Anytime you bring up the Pats in the company of any respectable people the first thing they are going to do is discount all of they achievement and label them as cheaters.

I feel bad for you. I really do. You are going through the same thing that Lance Armstrongs mother went though.

:(

As a Pats fan, your posts have probably bothered me the most, but I think they give me a grin these days.You know the Pat's success doesn't need to e recognized outside of NE, but you know it will be. Right now is a rough patch, but the Patriots and their fans will be just fine.
 

bionic77

Member
As a Pats fan, your posts have probably bothered me the most, but I think they give me a grin these days.You know the Pat's success doesn't need to e recognized outside of NE, but you know it will be. Right now is a rough patch, but the Patriots and their fans will be just fine.
:lol

That is never going to happen. I am crazy about the NFL and know a ton of people who follow every second of it. Everyone fucking says the Pats are cheaters and that is the first thing that everyone says. If you don't want to be labeled as cheaters you have two options. Don't get caught or don't cheat. The Pats went for option number one and almost pulled it off (who would have ever thought that someone could fool the geniuses in charge of the NFL?) but thanks to some scumbag coach who left the Pats to work of another scumbag team they ran the sting that blew it open and now that is just part of their legacy.

As much as that might bother you you have two options. Accept it or live inside the NE Bubble. The latter probably sounds like the option that is more fun so I won't hold it against you if that is what you decide!
 

Troy

Banned
:lol

That is never going to happen. I am crazy about the NFL and know a ton of people who follow every second of it. Everyone fucking says the Pats are cheaters and that is the first thing that everyone says. If you don't want to be labeled as cheaters you have two options. Don't get caught or don't cheat. The Pats went for option number one and almost pulled it off (who would have ever thought that someone could fool the geniuses in charge of the NFL?) but thanks to some scumbag coach who left the Pats to work of another scumbag team they ran the sting that blew it open and now that is just part of their legacy.

As much as that might bother you you have two options. Accept it or live inside the NE Bubble. The latter probably sounds like the option that is more fun so I won't hold it against you if that is what you decide!

Option three: Be an irrelevant team.
 

Josh5890

Member
If anyone ever wanted a sliding doors moment with what could have happened to the NBA during the Donaghy scandal - Spygate appears to be heading in that direction.

I've always believed that the Tim Donaghy incident didn't get as much coverage as it should've because it happened at the same time as the Michael Vick dog fighting incident.
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
I've always believed that the Tim Donaghy incident didn't get as much coverage as it should've because it happened at the same time as the Michael Vick dog fighting incident.

Also, the NBA was in the downslope of its popularity at the time. If that happened now, or hell, something like that happened in the NFL? It would be monstrously big.
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
I call them "made up"

Go ahead and call the man who has won two pulitzers for investigative reporting with the NYTimes as someone who just "makes up sources".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Van_Natta,_Jr.

Even Simmons isn't going in on the report's accuracy - because he had DVN Jr on the BS Report (in one of the podcasts that ended up being the final straw) talking about Goodell. He knows these reporters are extremely good.

This is not even Mort or Schefter reporting this - these are legit investigative journalists who have blown open much worse things in their lives. No one here would even be talking about concussions if it were not for much of their work initially. You can complain a lot about the handling of many things - but these are not run of the mill normally news reporters.
 

oatmeal

Banned
Go ahead and call the man who has won two pulitzers for investigative reporting with the NYTimes as someone who just "makes up sources".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Van_Natta,_Jr.

Even Simmons isn't going in on the report's accuracy - because he had DVN Jr on the BS Report (in one of the podcasts that ended up being the final straw) talking about Goodell. He knows these reporters are extremely good.

This is not even Mort or Schefter reporting this - these are legit investigative journalists who have blown open much worse things in their lives. No one here would even be talking about concussions if it were not for much of their work initially. You can complain a lot about the handling of many things - but these are not run of the mill normally news reporters.

No new news, curious timing, tons of speculation with no sources. Modbot would never have let it go to print.

It's a hatchet job. Doesn't matter who the writer is, it's a piss poor article.
 
It isn't at all clear that Goodell was benefiting the Patriots by destroying the tapes. In fact, destroying the tapes could have hurt the Patriots.

The Patriots have always said they had a guy standing out in the open on the sidelines filming, and that many teams filmed signals. Jimmy Johnson admitted taping from the sidelines, and taping coaches specifically, with the Cowboys. The "everyone was doing it" defense at its best.

However, it isn't clear what needs to be defended. NFL rules actually require teams to tape during games, but "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches’ booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." Since it says "field" instead of "sidelines" it leaves a little bit of ambiguity for teams to use. It wasn't until 2006 that a memo came out which said not to do it on the sidelines, but that memo didn't technically change the rules, and it also contradicted other rules which require taping, such as "club videographers have to shoot the scoreboard prior to each play."

So the Patriots made the case that everyone was doing it (they themselves had caught the Jets) and that only the location of the camera was at fault. That location being in plain view on the sidelines, something that was never mentioned before 2006.

Whatever you think about the Patriots case, their position would be improved if the video came out and showed they really were just filming from the sidelines. Without that video imagination can run wild.

So even if you think the Patriots case sucks and they were super cheating, they don't deserve to get the extra blame that should rightly fall on Goodell for destroying the tapes which may have made the crime seem much more mild.
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
No new news, curious timing, tons of speculation with no sources. Modbot would never have let it go to print.

It's a hatchet job. Doesn't matter who the writer is, it's a piss poor article.

Interviews by ESPN The Magazine and Outside the Lines with more than 90 league officials, owners, team executives and coaches, current and former Patriots coaches, staffers and players, and reviews of previously undisclosed private notes from key meetings, show that Spygate is the centerpiece of a long, secret history between Goodell's NFL, which declined comment for this story, and Kraft's Patriots. The diametrically opposed way the inquiries were managed by Goodell -- and, more importantly, perceived by his bosses -- reveals much about how and why NFL punishment is often dispensed. The widespread perception that Goodell gave the Patriots a break on Spygate, followed by the NFL's stonewalling of a potential congressional investigation into the matter, shaped owners' expectations of what needed to be done by 345 Park Ave. on Deflategate.

If this is incorrect - then ESPN is about to be sued by the NFL and by the Patriots.

Since I have not seen a lawsuit incoming - this isn't just made up stuff. I get it. It's hard to admit that this is mostly true. But no NYTimes multi-Pulitzer winning investigative journalist is going to risk their career over a "hatchet" job. The NFL isn't going to authorize a "hatchet" job that includes the speculation that the NFL manipulated quotes from coaches to get the federal government to drop an investigation. Even Bill Simmons won't challenge the accuracy of the actual report.

Plus, reading between the lines - I suspect the major break was that ESPN got access to Specter's notes from when he investigated the NFL over Spygate years ago now that he's passed away (and it's been death + 2 years).
 
Let's have a look at Tom Brady riding scooters

scooter-thumb-400x566-29929.jpg


Tom-Brady-rode-scooter-through-park.jpg


Tom-Brady-followed-his-son-lead-riding-scooter-through-Boston.jpg


Tom-Brady-Riding-Scooter-Family-Boston.jpg


rs_560x415-130826090316-1024.tombrady.boston.jlc.jpg


FFN_Brady_Bundchen_Park_FF2_060112_9142691.jpg


wRgnDxs.jpg


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tom-brady-2-500.jpg

What a great guy
 

Quotient

Member
Go ahead and call the man who has won two pulitzers for investigative reporting with the NYTimes as someone who just "makes up sources".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Van_Natta,_Jr.

Even Simmons isn't going in on the report's accuracy - because he had DVN Jr on the BS Report (in one of the podcasts that ended up being the final straw) talking about Goodell. He knows these reporters are extremely good.

This is not even Mort or Schefter reporting this - these are legit investigative journalists who have blown open much worse things in their lives. No one here would even be talking about concussions if it were not for much of their work initially. You can complain a lot about the handling of many things - but these are not run of the mill normally news reporters.


And Ted Wells was a respected investigator.

The biggest objection most Patriot fans have is the unsubstantiated accusations, e..g the stealing of play-sheets. The rest of the article is mostly discussing what we know about Spygate.
 
No new news, curious timing, tons of speculation with no sources. Modbot would never have let it go to print.

It's a hatchet job. Doesn't matter who the writer is, it's a piss poor article.

I would considering the Mike Maltz thing new news.

Also, writers often are given leeway with disclosing their sources, same as a newspaper would protect sources. An editor would not publish this in good faith if there were any inaccuracies or improprieties.

This is all assuming The Magazine follows good & ethical journalistic procedure.
 

oatmeal

Banned
I would considering the Mike Maltz thing new news.

Also, writers often are given leeway with disclosing their sources, same as a newspaper would protect sources. An editor would not publish this in good faith if there were any inaccuracies or improprieties.

This is all assuming The Magazine follows good & ethical journalistic procedure.

Why are we assuming good faith at this point?
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
I dont think you can sue if its Parody speculations.

They can sue if ESPN said "we talked to all these sources" and they didn't.

And Ted Wells was a respected investigator.

The biggest objection most Patriot fans have is the unsubstantiated accusations, e..g the stealing of play-sheets. The rest of the article is mostly discussing what we know about Spygate.

Ted Wells was never an investigator - Ted Wells is a lawyer. Those are investigative journalists.

Speaking about Spygate - the ESPN report completely clears the Patriots on taping the Rams SB practice with what appears to be the actual story behind it - basically it came down to sheer and complete dumb luck.

Then Specter turned to the alleged videotaping of the Rams' walk-through. Walsh confessed that after the Patriots' team picture, he and at least three other team videographers lingered around the Louisiana Superdome, setting up cameras for the game. Suddenly, the Rams arrived and started their walk-through. The three videographers, in full Patriots apparel, hung around, on the field and in the stands, for 30 minutes. Nobody said anything. Walsh said he observed star Rams running back Marshall Faulk line up in an unusual position: as a kickoff returner. That night, Walsh reported what he had seen to Patriots assistant coach Brian Daboll, who asked an array of questions about the Rams' formations. Walsh said that Daboll, who declined through the Patriots to comment for this story, drew a series of diagrams -- an account Daboll later denied to league investigators.

Faulk had returned only one kickoff in his career before the Super Bowl. Sure enough, in the second quarter, he lined up deep. The Patriots were ready: Vinatieri kicked it into a corner, leading Faulk out of bounds after gaining 1 yard.

During the walk-through, the Rams had also practiced some of their newly designed red zone plays. When they ran the same plays late in the Super Bowl's fourth quarter, the Patriots' defense was in position on nearly every down. On one new play, quarterback Kurt Warner rolled to his right and turned to throw to Faulk in the flat, where three Patriots defenders were waiting. On the sideline, Rams coach Mike Martz was stunned. He was famous for his imaginative, unpredictable plays, and now it was as if the Patriots knew what was coming on plays that had never been run before. The Patriots' game plan had called for a defender to hit Faulk on every down, as a means of eliminating him, but one coach who worked with an assistant on that 2001 Patriots team says that the ex-Pats assistant coach once bragged that New England knew exactly what the Rams would call in the red zone. "He'd say, 'A little birdie told us,'" the coach says now.

The part that I think folks are upset about is

In fact, many former New England coaches and employees insist that the taping of signals wasn't even the most effective cheating method the Patriots deployed in that era. Several of them acknowledge that during pregame warm-ups, a low-level Patriots employee would sneak into the visiting locker room and steal the play sheet, listing the first 20 or so scripted calls for the opposing team's offense. (The practice became so notorious that some coaches put out fake play sheets for the Patriots to swipe.) Numerous former employees say the Patriots would have someone rummage through the visiting team hotel for playbooks or scouting reports. Walsh later told investigators that he was once instructed to remove the labels and erase tapes of a Patriots practice because the team had illegally used a player on injured reserve. At Gillette Stadium, the scrambling and jamming of the opponents' coach-to-quarterback radio line -- "small s---" that many teams do, according to a former Pats assistant coach -- occurred so often that one team asked a league official to sit in the coaches' box during the game and wait for it to happen. Sure enough, on a key third down, the headset went out.

So we have Walsh on record as saying they cheated a little (as most teams apparently do) in one way, and there are "multiple sources" about the play call sheet stealing.

I doubt the NFL would allow it to happen for anyone currently active - but I'd be curious to see if any former players or coaches confirm the fake sheets at the very least.
 

Gigglepoo

Member
I honestly do not care even a little bit if the accusations leveled at the Patriots are true. If this accelerates the dismissal of Goodell, though, I'm all for digging up this inconsequential garbage.
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
So was Morts story.

Thing was; Mort's report came from a NFL source, so NFL isn't going to sue someone for slander that they gave info to (because if they did - Mort would promptly point out the source).

This one is coming from lots of sources, and towards the Patriots. If this was untrue; Patriots would be first ones with their lawyers hunting after ESPN. It took the NYTimes years after Jayson Blair to get their credibility back. A single inaccurate article can almost end a career. Especially after being bit by the NFL about Deflategate; ESPN isn't going to take chances.

TBH - this article, is if anything, ESPN dropping revenge truth bombs against the NFL for being used by them for Deflategate. There's a ton of damning statements in that article against both Goodell and the NFL. (Including unsubtle hints that Goodell might be on super thin ice)
 
I would considering the Mike Maltz thing new news.

Also, writers often are given leeway with disclosing their sources, same as a newspaper would protect sources. An editor would not publish this in good faith if there were any inaccuracies or improprieties.

This is all assuming The Magazine follows good & ethical journalistic procedure.

A problem here is that league sources from the NFL have been giving false information to ESPN since the Deflategate story first broke:

- Mortensen and Peter King's original source on deflategate was wrong... "11/12 Patriots footballs were under inflated by 2 PSI." This was factually wrong in both regards. Mortensen has continued to defend this while Peter King said his source was wrong and backed off it.

- ESPN continually broke NFL stories during the appeal hearing that Brady was going to accept a bargain and admit guilt. This never happened.

- Curiously, a majority of the named people in this article -- Hines Ward, Bill Polian, and Mike Martz, Marshall Faulk, Kurt Warner -- are all ESPN employees and coincidentally all lost significant games to the Patriots. Most of the other people who have comments actually attributed to them are anonymous sources.

I would have probably given ESPN the benefit of the doubt, but now I'm pretty skeptical of most of their reporting.

The Mike Martz stuff was really interesting, though, especially how the article mentions that he felt like his signed statement was altered by someone in the league before it was released. To me, though, that isn't a Patriots-cheater story, that's a shady NFL story, and this article is first and foremost, a Patriots-cheater story, not a shady-NFL story. The rest of the paragraphs about Martz are written similarly to how the whole article is written, casting Belichick, this analyst, and other people in the Patriots organization as a vast criminal conspiracy.

The Super Bowl against the Patriots had derailed Martz's career as much as it made Belichick's. Martz's offense, dubbed "The Greatest Show on Turf" in 1999, was never the same, and in 2006, he was fired as the Rams' coach. After bouncing around the league, he was then the 49ers' offensive coordinator. Like a number of former Rams -- especially Faulk and Warner, who now both work for the NFL Network -- Martz was deeply suspicious of whether the Patriots had videotaped the walk-through or his team's practices before the Super Bowl, even though he believes that the Rams' three turnovers were the main factors in the defeat.

The article is certainly presenting Martz, his whole career, as a victim of cheating. "Martz's offense, dubbed the Greatest show on Turf in 1999 was never the same and he was fired as Ram's coach," ignoring that even in the year that the Ram's offense was the greatest show on turf they were 3 feet away from losing the Super Bowl to Jeff Fisher's Titans. Fisher is a great coach, but not one generally considered a coaching genius. And then, when Martz is fired in 2006, that's after five years of total mediocrity in St. Louis, which had nothing to do with losing the 2001 Super Bowl, but down performances in the five years following it. Martz also had mixed runs in Detroit, San Fransisco, and Chicago before retiring.

The story about Martz feeling like the NFL changed his statement before releasing it is definitely interesting, but this article and the whole story (and this thread) is certainly about the Patriots alleged cheating, and that line is definitely an odd factoid that isn't the focus of the article.
 

Troy

Banned
No he's counting his Super Bowl rings.

He has 4 more than the entire Eagles franchise has. Interesting fact huh?
I remember seeing the Eagles in the Super Bowl. Then I remember them literally and figuratively puking all over themselves. Can't believe the Pats cheated them like that by making them incapable of running a two minute offense. Despicable.
 

Quotient

Member
Ted Wells was never an investigator - Ted Wells is a lawyer. Those are investigative journalists.

I was referring to his role as an investigator for the NFL in deflategate.


The part that I think folks are upset about is

So we have Walsh on record as saying they cheated a little (as most teams apparently do) in one way, and there are "multiple sources" about the play call sheet stealing.

I doubt the NFL would allow it to happen for anyone currently active - but I'd be curious to see if any former players or coaches confirm the fake sheets at the very least.

Do you honestly believe that if the Patriots were breaking into opposing teams locker rooms to steal play-sheets that the only response would be to put "fake call sheets out".

I see only 2 reasons a team wouldn't report the patriots to the NFL/media:


  1. It never happened
  2. They also did nefarious deeds too

I personally am leaning on option 1.
 

JABEE

Member
I remember seeing the Eagles in the Super Bowl. Then I remember them literally and figuratively puking all over themselves. Can't believe the Pats cheated them like that by making them incapable of running a two minute offense. Despicable.
And the hilarious thing is the Eagles choked, and the cheating Pats almost lost that game.

What a joke of an organization? They not only cheated, but their opponent played their worst game of the season, and the Pats still only won* by a field goal.
 
Same amount as the Eagles though if you remove the ones where they cheated.

Another championship less franchise complaining about the greatest franchise in NFL history. It's must suck to be as terrible as you guys are. Even with the stick-em on your gloves you can't win shit.

At l set the Eagles have three NFL Championships. What do the Patriots have? Nothing.

Ah yes, the high school championships. So sad the Pats don't have any of those
 
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