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Drama Epic Games vs Apple in court face off INCLUDING Tim Sweeney , LIVE !!!

A.Romero

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Basically companies had the vision and the capabilities of creating a market where there was none before an ended up in a place with huge advantage and we are being told that this is not acceptable and opportunistic leeches are trying to lower the barrier of entry because they don't have the talent or the capabilities to actually compete. To me this doesn't sound like fair market competition.

Also, once this is open and anyone and their mothers can put up their own stores and payment methods, abusive people will have a field day fooling non saavy people into surrendering their data. This will not be an issue at all.

I have a feeling platform holders will change their business models and charge higher to be able to develop for their stores so a lot of smaller devs will have to go to smaller store fronts. It will be a shit show.

And Sweeney, from all people, is pushing for this under the pretense of fair competition. Ironic considering money hatting exclusives on PC the way they had can be done by any company (they just need to be willing to lose a few million dollars).

This is beyond stupid.
 

Gamezone

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Do Apple have to approve services like game streaming trough native apps if Epic wins this?
 
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Bojanglez

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I don't think anyone would argue that Stripe/Amazon/PayPal/et cetera is worse than Apple for payments. I certainly wasn't trying to make that claim (and if I did allude to this in some way then I apologize).


  1. I don't think this is feasible since it would basically be forcing Apple to code for other payment processors, and I don't think there is any legal precedent that can force someone to allow another payment processor to be included in their software, and that's a dangerous precedent to create now. Not to mention that the judge couldn't specify which payment processor to use (because if they say to use PayPal, what happens if PayPal is sold or goes under?), and in keeping this vague Apple could use an unknown and/or untrustworthy payment processor just to force (in a roundabout way) developers to keep using their payment processor with the 30% cut.
  2. That sounds reasonable.
  3. I keep re-reading this, and I'm not entirely sure what you're meaning. Could you give a more specific example? I'm feeling rather stupid right now, lol.
  4. Since security truly has been at the forefront of all of their OSs, I think that a judge forcing this insecurity would be tantamount to destroying the entire brand. If it was just iOS I would say maybe. But Apple has been touting their security long before they invented the iPhone, and they carried over their security stance into their mobile OS. If the judge forced them to side-load it could actually cause harm to the Apple brand if iOS devices started getting a bunch of malware/viruses/et cetera. Also, side-loading isn't just allowing foreign apps that could be dangerous in and of themselves. When a foreign app can be side-loaded, you're also introducing a new way for unscrupulous people to figure out flaws in iOS that they can use to exploit others even without them having to side-load your app. For example, if someone figures out a software-level flaw due to their side-loaded app, they could use that to create a website that they could share, and any iOS user clicking that link could have their phone infected.
I think the second option truly is the best. It keeps the device itself secure (provided the link the developer put in isn't malicious) which is what Apple wants, and it allows developers an alternative to Apple's 30% cut which is what developers want. Regardless, consumers aren't going to benefit from this. But it will be interesting to see where this goes. Legislation is just so tricky because it's hard to future-proof it, and it usually ends up being abused in some way.

I think the best scenario would be for the judge not to rule in Epic's favor, and for legislation to be introduced that had a hard cap of what percentage storefronts could take from developers. But then I'm wondering why it's legal for credit card companies to have 29.99% APR. This whole thing is a mess! Let's just do a bottom-to-top revamp of our entire country. :D



No, it isn't over.

EDIT: To elaborate, the trial is over, but the verdict has not been announced.
On point 3, the problem at the moment is that Apple want to protect the security of iOS apps and devices but also control the pricing to some extent (by forcing 30% cut of revenue). If it was agreed that the Apple App store was still the only way to load apps on to an iOS device, but other stores could sell licenses/keys for apps then it could be a compromise.

So imagine someone like Humble could then sell an iOS bundle of games and agree the revenue split with each developer.

In this model it may be reasonable for Apple to take a small cut for providing some services, but not the 30%.

Basically like Steam currently do on their store.
 
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IFireflyl

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On point 3, the problem at the moment is that Apple want to protect the security of iOS apps and devices but also control the pricing to some extent (by forcing 30% cut of revenue). If it was agreed that the Apple App store was still the only way to load apps on to an iOS device, but other stores could sell licenses/keys for apps then it could be a compromise.

So imagine someone like Humble could then sell an iOS bundle of games and agree the revenue split with each developer.

In this model it may be reasonable for Apple to take a small cut for providing some services, but not the 30%.

Basically like Steam currently do on their store.

Oh, so just redeeming a code/product key via the Apple App Store, but the code/product key may have been purchased elsewhere. So since the customer isn't purchasing via the App Store the developer isn't paying Apple the 30%. That makes sense, and it provides an alternate solution while not compromising security.
 
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Who knows what will shake out. I'm not even an Apple fan. I think their stuff is way overpriced and half the people seem snobby.

But to me it's their OS. Its their rules. I dont think Apple even has monopolistic power in smartphones as Android is bigger. Dont like it, then funnel your efforts to Android.

It's not like Apple is like the local water or electricity utility with 100% control of your services and the only game in town. There's two main OS/app stores. App companies can freely go to Android which is totally open.

Walmart and Amazon are the biggest retailers out there. They dont have to carry your product either - even if you are willing to do all the back end work as a drop shipper. They dont want you around with your service, then beat it.

Epic is even trying to circumvent Apple's structure. It's like Walmart selling toasters, but instead of buying a toaster at shelf, the supplier sneaks in an empty box and says buy it direct from their website so they get all the money.
 
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reksveks

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The suggestion was offered during a meeting between Apple and Google, the details of which are still confidential. But other portions of unredacted court documents reveal Google suggested to Apple the two companies team up and "work as if we are one company" to combat efforts like Epic's to undermine mobile app store commission rates and restrictions against alternative app stores.

Nice competition we have here between the two os providers
 
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reksveks

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Just a small update from another case which was in front of the same judge.


Will have to have a proper look for a good summary, but some concessions made around devs being able to email users being able to pay via a different method.
 

hlm666

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Just a small update from another case which was in front of the same judge.


Will have to have a proper look for a good summary, but some concessions made around devs being able to email users being able to pay via a different method.
I read some other places reporting on that and they said it was basically just going to let apps advertise external payment options in app again. If the user just continued to use the in app payment method it was still only apples option. On a side note didn't the judge say verdict no later than august when the trial wrapped? She's really worked out this industry if she has a delay ;)
 

Fuz

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I know there is a lot of hate for Epic Games store around here, but anyone siding with Apple on this is fucking dumb.
 

reksveks

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Could have just linked the WSJ article but just interested in Tim's take.


Wonder what the market will do when it opens. Samsung in the shadows somewhere probably laughing for reason's unknown.

If they don't do it, it's a 3% fine of all Apple revenue in South Korea.
 
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strange headache

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Could have liked the WSJ article but just interesting in Tim's take.


Wonder what the market will do when it opens. Samsung in the shadows somewhere probably laughing for reason's unknown.

F*ck this, let people install apps on their own without having to go through a stupidly limiting appstore.
 

Silent Viper

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Agreed. Go Team Apple.
Fuck Apple.

Epic Ftw. End Apple abusive practices now.




I enjoy playing Fortnite. Game gives endless amount of joy to lot of my family members as well. Apple gives nothing. Nothing of importance will be lost if this shit company is gone (except maybe jobs of people )
 
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reksveks

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Just another small concession from Apple off the back of the Japanese regulator


It also seems like Apple may be slightly redefining what a “reader” app means: While the company’s App Review Guidelines suggest that a reader app “may” allow users to access previously purchased content (presumably alongside in-app purchases, like Netflix offered for years), Apple’s new press release specifies that “developers of reader apps do not offer in-app digital goods and services for purchase” (bolding ours).

That would mean that Apple’s only offering this exception to companies that aren’t contributing any in-app purchase commissions to Apple anyways. Which, admittedly, include some of Apple’s sternest critics like Spotify.

Slowly getting there.
 
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phil_t98

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Fuck Apple.

Epic Ftw. End Apple abusive practices now.




I enjoy playing Fortnite. Game gives endless amount of joy to lot of my family members as well. Apple gives nothing. Nothing of importance will be lost if this shit company is gone (except maybe jobs of people )

You do realise that Sony and Microsoft take 30% when transactions go through their stores to, this is gonna have a wider reaching effect
 

reksveks

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You do realise that Sony and Microsoft take 30% when transactions go through their stores to, this is gonna have a wider reaching effect
Depends on the judges ruling*, kinda doesn't cause it will get appealed either way.

The legislation that touches on this topic specifically calls out the fact it only applies to pc and mobiles phone and the app store has to have a certain amount of users in the US.
 
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phil_t98

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Depends on the judges ruling*, kinda doesn't cause it will get appealed either way.

The legislation that touches on this topic specifically calls out the fact it only applies to pc and mobiles phone and the app store has to have a certain amount of users in the US.

Yeah but it starts this way and then it and they will see how the case goes, if they win this over apple they will look at consoles next to get more money
 

reksveks

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Yeah but it starts this way and then it and they will see how the case goes, if they win this over apple they will look at consoles next to get more money

Whom will look at consoles rev splits? Publishers?

We will have that conversations when/if it happens but it's harder to argue there isn't meaningful competition between Sony and Microsoft for publishers given the amount of co-marketing campaigns and indie programmes that both console manufacturers make. I need to double check the Microsoft Windows Store revenue split is for games, I can see Microsoft creating programs for reduced revenue splits in exchange for stuff like PlayAnywhere or xcloud.
 

phil_t98

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Whom will look at consoles rev splits? Publishers?

We will have that conversations when/if it happens but it's harder to argue there isn't meaningful competition between Sony and Microsoft for publishers given the amount of co-marketing campaigns and indie programmes that both console manufacturers make. I need to double check the Microsoft Windows Store revenue split is for games, I can see Microsoft creating programs for reduced revenue splits in exchange for stuff like PlayAnywhere or xcloud.

The thing with pc is you can directly instal your game without needing to go through the windows store. With consoles Its a closed platform like the app store. Like I say this could have wider reaching effects on what happens going forward
 

hlm666

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Yeah but it starts this way and then it and they will see how the case goes, if they win this over apple they will look at consoles next to get more money

Whom will look at consoles rev splits? Publishers?

We will have that conversations when/if it happens but it's harder to argue there isn't meaningful competition between Sony and Microsoft for publishers given the amount of co-marketing campaigns and indie programmes that both console manufacturers make. I need to double check the Microsoft Windows Store revenue split is for games, I can see Microsoft creating programs for reduced revenue splits in exchange for stuff like PlayAnywhere or xcloud.

It's already starting.


When/If apple lose you can bet companies like epic/ea/ubisoft/acti/take2 would be interested in being able to have their own stores on consoles or be able to sell the codes from their websites that you redeem on the console.
 

phil_t98

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It's already starting.


When/If apple lose you can bet companies like epic/ea/ubisoft/acti/take2 would be interested in being able to have their own stores on consoles or be able to sell the codes from their websites that you redeem on the console.

Yeah I said all this months ago that it has a wider impact and company’s may start wanting to side load games on consoles like they are wanting to side load on phones
 

reksveks

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It's already starting.


When/If apple lose you can bet companies like epic/ea/ubisoft/acti/take2 would be interested in being able to have their own stores on consoles or be able to sell the codes from their websites that you redeem on the console.

I am okay with the latter personally, if it happens, I don't think you will see the same amount of co-marketing deals for publishers that do so.
 
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hlm666

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I am okay with the latter personally, if it happens, I don't think you will see the same amount of co-marketing deals for publishers that do so.
I don't think co marketing deals would compare much to take2 getting 30% more of their revenue on console sales for gta6 for example, they would even probably market themselves with stuff like buy from our online portal and get these awesome gun skins.
 
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reksveks

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I don't think co marketing deals would compare much to take2 getting 30% more of their revenue on console sales for gta6 for example, they would even probably market themselves with stuff like buy from our online portal and get these awesome gun skins.

Are you able to buy games digitally on amazon for either platform? You can buy store top up's right?

FIFA 22 Ultimate Edition | Xbox One and Series X|S - Download Code : Amazon.co.uk: PC & Video Games

Can buy for Xbox. I can't see the big difference between buying a 70 top up and a 70 game.

Competition is good in my opinion. I have no real issues with using multiple storefronts at least not ones big enough that concerns me as much as the consolidation that I see.
 
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hlm666

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Are you able to buy games digitally on amazon for either platform? You can buy store top up's right?

Competition is good in my opinion. I have no real issues with using multiple storefronts at least not ones big enough that concerns me as much as the consolidation that I see.
That's exactly what that class action was about, you can't buy the games digitally anymore except via psn. You can only buy the pre paid credit (like apple app store credit) then you have to buy through psn with said credit. When you could buy the game codes directly from amazon you could often get them cheaper than via xbox/psn stores. You can still buy some xbox game codes online, in my region it's pathetic like 3 games and i'm not sure how it is for other regions or what it's like for new releases but it's not as good as it needs to be so we could benefit from competitive pricing.
 

phil_t98

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That's exactly what that class action was about, you can't buy the games digitally anymore except via psn. You can only buy the pre paid credit (like apple app store credit) then you have to buy through psn with said credit. When you could buy the game codes directly from amazon you could often get them cheaper than via xbox/psn stores. You can still buy some xbox game codes online, in my region it's pathetic like 3 games and i'm not sure how it is for other regions or what it's like for new releases but it's not as good as it needs to be so we could benefit from competitive pricing.
Also the cards you buy the game codes on are Microsoft branded so they still getting their cut
 
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phil_t98

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They would be getting a cut, but not sure we know if its the same cut or there is a different rev split in play.
I would guess and it is a guess that it being a Microsoft code for the game the revenue split would be the same
 

reksveks

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I would guess and it is a guess that it being a Microsoft code for the game the revenue split would be the same
I am confused slightly, might help me to think what your split looks like in action

Case 1 - buying through xbox console (30% split)
Microsoft - 21 usd
EA - 49 usd

Case 2 - buying a code through amazon
Amazon -???
Microsoft -???
EA -???

What does your case two look like? my one is the following:
My Case 2 - buying a code through amazon (assume x is 10%)
Amazon - 10% so 7 usd
Microsoft - 20% so 14 usd
EA - 49 usd

Amazon might take a 0% fee but not sure there is a significant commercial reason to do unless they just want the revenue on the books and/or doing some shit around interests financially
 

Sid Of Bee

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Apple should allow multiple app stores on their device. Works for every other general purpose computer device.

Including Macs lol.
 
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Portugeezer

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I am confused slightly, might help me to think what your split looks like in action

Case 1 - buying through xbox console (30% split)
Microsoft - 21 usd
EA - 49 usd

Case 2 - buying a code through amazon
Amazon -???
Microsoft -???
EA -???

What does your case two look like? my one is the following:
My Case 2 - buying a code through amazon (assume x is 10%)
Amazon - 10% so 7 usd
Microsoft - 20% so 14 usd
EA - 49 usd

Amazon might take a 0% fee but not sure there is a significant commercial reason to do unless they just want the revenue on the books and/or doing some shit around interests financially
I guess Amazon's cut would eat into EA's since they're the publisher. I don't believe MS/Sony royalties change here.
 

phil_t98

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I am confused slightly, might help me to think what your split looks like in action

Case 1 - buying through xbox console (30% split)
Microsoft - 21 usd
EA - 49 usd

Case 2 - buying a code through amazon
Amazon -???
Microsoft -???
EA -???

What does your case two look like? my one is the following:
My Case 2 - buying a code through amazon (assume x is 10%)
Amazon - 10% so 7 usd
Microsoft - 20% so 14 usd
EA - 49 usd

Amazon might take a 0% fee but not sure there is a significant commercial reason to do unless they just want the revenue on the books and/or doing some shit around interests financially
Isn’t amazon just selling Microsoft’s codes. Microsoft with generate the code and their cut reguardless
 

hlm666

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Isn’t amazon just selling Microsoft’s codes. Microsoft with generate the code and their cut reguardless
Yeh I believe what publishers would really want is how it works with steam, valve get no cut when you buy a game from greenman gaming for instance. Publishers sell the keys to gmg. There are some restrictions which I'm not totally up to date on when a few years ago devs were generating 100's of thousands of keys for bundle sites and steam were selling less than 10% of the copies.

I hadn't even considered that they were all microsoft branded like you mentioned above and that would be why the selection was less than great aswell.
Yep, Tencent/Epic is almost assuredly going after the consoles next.
Yeh looking at the fortnite platform breakdown that come out during the court case if they win they most definitely will take a run at other platforms, I was really surprised at how much apple didn't matter to epic in the grand scheme of things.
 
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IntentionalPun

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I am confused slightly, might help me to think what your split looks like in action

Case 1 - buying through xbox console (30% split)
Microsoft - 21 usd
EA - 49 usd

Case 2 - buying a code through amazon
Amazon -???
Microsoft -???
EA -???

What does your case two look like? my one is the following:
My Case 2 - buying a code through amazon (assume x is 10%)
Amazon - 10% so 7 usd
Microsoft - 20% so 14 usd
EA - 49 usd

Amazon might take a 0% fee but not sure there is a significant commercial reason to do unless they just want the revenue on the books and/or doing some shit around interests financially

It likely a small amount to amazon, which comes out of Microsoft's cut not the publishers, I think you have that backwards.

Thing is, amazon then has to pay the transaction fees.. MS doesn't have to pay Visa/MC/Paypal in that scenario, so the small cut given to Amazon is probably not much more than they save on transaction fees.. and it's yet another storefront for consumers to see the product.

Since it's literally just an email, and costs amazon pretty much nothing to list it.. worth it to have such a low margin product on their store. Also gets gamers to add accessories and other things to their carts.
 
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Dr Bass

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F*ck this, let people install apps on their own without having to go through a stupidly limiting appstore.
100%

I've never seen anyone on the pro Apple/Google side answer this question:

As smartphones increasingly become the primary computing device for people across the globe, should Apple and Google become the de facto gatekeepers for all business and commerce across the world?

If people don't understand what I'm asking, almost all businesses and services require apps these days. Apple and Google have the ability to shut down, or stop, any business that relies on these apps for no reason. We have seen them take arbitrary action before. App Store policies previously have not even allowed people to know who their customers are. Apple has all of the power, and all of the say.

Should these two companies rule over every business on the planet?

The mobile app stores, simply, must not be allowed to exist in their current form. We need freedom to distribute software as we choose, with no overlords.
 

reksveks

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It likely a small amount to amazon, which comes out of Microsoft's cut not the publishers, I think you have that backwards.

Think that's what my case 2 shows, that amazon takes a cut from Microsoft. It probably isn't the 10/20 split but it was just representative of the rev breakdown.

Suspect we have kinda gone off topic though.
 
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ReBurn

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It's already starting.


When/If apple lose you can bet companies like epic/ea/ubisoft/acti/take2 would be interested in being able to have their own stores on consoles or be able to sell the codes from their websites that you redeem on the console.
Figured this was coming. It kind of sucked when Sony stopped sales of digital codes on Amazon. I got some pretty good digital deals that way.
 

IntentionalPun

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Think that's what my case 2 shows, that amazon takes a cut from Microsoft. It probably isn't the 10/20 split but it was just representative of the rev breakdown.

Suspect we have kinda gone off topic though.
Well to take it back on topic..

It's really not that much different than selling gift cards at stores; those retailers get a cut; the app store behind it doesn't have to pay a transaction fee so some of the cut is a wash for them, etc.

Difference of course being that doesn't sell a specific app, but just money towards other apps.. and gift cards are of course a bit of a grift because they don't all get spent..

But Apple does have an alternative payment processor.. any store that sells their gift cards.
 

Tripolygon

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That would mean that Apple’s only offering this exception to companies that aren’t contributing any in-app purchase commissions to Apple anyways. Which, admittedly, include some of Apple’s sternest critics like Spotify.

Slowly getting there.
It is what they do. They will never change anything, they will slowly give tiny inches until the law steps in and forces them to make changes like what South Korea just did.
 
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I'am not gonne look for almost 7 hours at a courtcase between does two, i have a life and spend my time on usefull things.
 

Sleepwalker

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You don’t care about the future of gaming?

what you got against apple?

How's this bad for the future of gaming?



Apple are in the wrong here, I own the hardware I should be able to install software on it in whatever way/source I see fit. My only apple device is an ipad pro that was gifted to me, the first thing I did with it was jailbreak it for that very reason.