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[DenchDeckard]

All these comments and arguments...

Wake me up when we have a game we can load on our hardware at home that delivers what we expected two years ago from the epic demo.

 

[oldergamer]

Then why can't you show me the demo running on PC and Xbox were your controlling the character?

And I'm not talking about UE5 in general but specifically this Demo.

Sorry i guess you are serious and cant use simple reasoning to understand when epic says hey this demo didn't only run on ps5, shows the same demo environment as the camera moves through it, and they say the demo had been running for 2 hours (which explains why there is no character walking about, no beetles, birds and other things). Not only that but they said the newer version of the engine is improved and much better.

However, you want to be stupid about it and won't believe what epic says. Using your broken logic without seeing the newer improved version of unreal 5 running on a ps5 directly means it cant run on the console?

You probably also still believe the hype that the ssd on ps5 is capable of doing things you cant on a pc or xbox.

Honesty there are more games using unreal 5 for first party games on xbox then there are for first party on PlayStation at this stage, but keep thinking a multiplatform game engine doesnt run on anything else because of a early tech demo. Even though a more impressive demo was released for the matrix that showed zero difference between the two platforms.

 

[darrylgorn]

Two things remain consistently true:

1. Hardware never delivers on its tech demo promises

2. People always fall for it

 

[oldergamer]

not Sony or Epic, correct. Fan bois on GAF did though.

This is true. I was telling people the gap in performance between the ssd in both consoles would be closer then it looked on paper. Ssd drives are incredibly fast with large files, but you rarely see a performance benefit with small file transfers. It just prevents the hardware from staying at peak performance levels while in use. Heat is also a factor as it is on pc with nvme drives.

Anyway there are those thay believe the hype.

 

[mckmas8808]

Almost forgot about this. It's been over two years, and it's pretty safe to assume there won't be any surprise AAA release announcements for the coming holidays.

So where are those PS5 games using movie quality assets and raw sculpts straight out of Zbrush?

Don't worry, they are still coming. UE5 just got fully realized not too long ago.

 

[Akuji]

Two things remain consistently true:

1. Hardware never delivers on its tech demo promises

2. People always fall for it

PS4 did in some ways. TLOU 2 or RDR2 is insane for a console like that.
But it was the swanesong games. 2017 Horizon Zero Dawn and God of War 2018 were jaw dropping at the time as well.
Oh Uncharted 4 was as well.

Gears of war and forza horizon were very impressive.
We come to a point where performance is not the big problem anymore but how to use it.
We have not seen really advanced games for the consoles and probably wont see them for the next 2-3 years.

I expect games that look way better then what we feel like those consoles can produces as of now.
Watch videos from back in 2013 and what people expected, if you would have shown tlou 2 gameplay people would have burned you and call you a witch.

 

[MAX PAYMENT]

Then why aren't we seeing "a huge leap in computing and graphics performance," or "new kinds of games and experiences for players to enjoy?"

 

[THE DUCK]

Your whole premise is flawed, you're using your own definition of "system design", not Epic's which was what this whole thread and discussion revolves around. In fact when Epic released the UE5 demo for the PS5 we hadn't even seen the final design for the PS5, it's extremely likely Epic didn't either. It's pretty obvious from the context of the quote they were referring to the PS5's SoC and sub-systems as I originally stated.

To put it simply when us consumers speak of "system design" then we can factor in things like outwards appearance, aesthetic and overall console design but such things are pointless to developers.

I get they are saying that, but we don't live in a bubble. And console size and shape matter regardless. What good would a flawlessly designed console be if nobody wanted to buy it? I guarantee you that if PS5 failed out the gate the looks and size of the console wouldn't be "pointless to developers". It was good enough in this case, but you get my point.

Again your opnion on its outward design is completely subjective. I know many people who like the PS5's design (including myself), in fact if you watch most of the reactions (on Youtube) to the PS5's design reveal they were mostly positive.

Your opinion on its size is open to debate. It will vary greatly from person to person and will depend entirely upon your gaming setup and space, In my case, the PS5 sits comfortably next to my desk without any obstruction or annoyance, but as I said before this will change from person to person.

For sake of the argument let's factor in the size in "system design", why is it so big? The engineers stated it was because of the cooling solution. In fact, before the PS5's reveal there was so much FUD that it would be just like the PS4 and Pro, and that it would overheat because of its high clock speeds. All of which got proven false, the PS5 is whisper quiet, just as the Series X/S and there's no overheating issues, seems like a reasonable trade off for its size to me.

Sounds like excuses here to me, if Series X and S can hit the power benchmark in their respective classes, if the PS5 were truly a "masterpiece" then you would think they could have found a way to cool it and keep it smaller.
It's great machine, well designed, but it's not perfect. (no console is)

 

[LazyParrot]

Don't worry, they are still coming. UE5 just got fully realized not too long ago.

So what's your new ETA?

 

[Lumpyoatmeal]

Don't worry, they are still coming. UE5 just got fully realized not too long ago.

So what's your new ETA?

 

[OmegaSupreme]

 

[Kvally]

We should all know this is just PR.

 

[SlimySnake]

I mean thats cool and all, but time for talk is over. Nothing Sony showed at the reveal even came close to matching what Epic showed off with that flying setpiece.

At this point, it just comes across as PR fluff, not unlike MS suits being honest and taking pot shots at the PS5 architecture.

Just gonna requote my post from June 2020 after the Sony PS5 reveal. I took so much shit from gaf back then for not being blown away by what they showed at the PS5 reveal because it simply couldnt live up to the incredible flying demo by Epic.

James Sawyer Ford Time has proved me right once again. ;p

 

[Interfectum]

The PS5 is an amazing piece of tech. The biggest problem with both new consoles are the fact they didn't come with any hardware based DLSS style feature. Tons of the potential of these systems are lost because of them having to push 4K most of the time.

 

[oldergamer]

Just gonna requote my post from June 2020 after the Sony PS5 reveal. I took so much shit from gaf back then for not being blown away by what they showed at the PS5 reveal because it simply couldnt live up to the incredible flying demo by Epic.

James Sawyer Ford Time has proved me right once again. ;p

I don't think you are wrong. Unreal as an engine is so far ahead of most other 3d tech, Unity is in the same ballpark, but there aren't many companies out there looking to push graphics as far as that demo. I really wish epic would get back to making new games ( not just updating fortnight! I remember the E3 it was first shown at running on xbox 360. That is how tired i am of it. )

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Just gonna requote my post from June 2020 after the Sony PS5 reveal. I took so much shit from gaf back then for not being blown away by what they showed at the PS5 reveal because it simply couldnt live up to the incredible flying demo by Epic.

James Sawyer Ford Time has proved me right once again. ;p

Ratchet and Horizon look just as good

 

[SlimySnake]

Ratchet and Horizon look just as good

Not talking about the graphics tbh. It was always Cerny's IO design that impressed me more than the PS5's tflops count. The flying traversal speed is what I expected from Sony first party games even before Epic showed their demo, and praised the PS5 'architecture'. I remember Sony showed an insanely fast Spiderman traversal demo way back in 2019.

It sucks Sonys own studios havent taken advantage of what Cerny has created.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Not talking about the graphics tbh. It was always Cerny's IO design that impressed me more than the PS5's tflops count. The flying traversal speed is what I expected from Sony first party games even before Epic showed their demo, and praised the PS5 'architecture'. I remember Sony showed an insanely fast Spiderman traversal demo way back in 2019.

It sucks Sonys own studios havent taken advantage of what Cerny has created.

True, though ratchet gets the closest due to the warps

I’m actually more interested in open world design that has far more variety and includes extensive indoor architecture

 

[Physiognomonics]

Not talking about the graphics tbh. It was always Cerny's IO design that impressed me more than the PS5's tflops count. The flying traversal speed is what I expected from Sony first party games even before Epic showed their demo, and praised the PS5 'architecture'. I remember Sony showed an insanely fast Spiderman traversal demo way back in 2019.

It sucks Sonys own studios havent taken advantage of what Cerny has created.

Insomniac did it with some of their games. On PC you need a powerful CPU to run the game as well as on PS5. And we haven't seen yet Miles Morales on PC.

Demon's souls does it well too. The density of assets in such big levels with perfect 60fps is still unmatched IMO even including PC games.

 

[Kvally]

Ratchet and Horizon look just as good

 

[SlimySnake]

True, though ratchet gets the closest due to the warps

I’m actually more interested in open world design that has far more variety and includes extensive indoor architecture

Yep. Avatar devs are the only ones talking about using the SSD and IO to add more variety and denser open worlds. Sadly we havent seen much of that game either.

I really hope Spiderman 2 lets you explore indoor areas without having to load. I dont mind having Manhattan as the setting for a third straight game as long as they focus on making interiors for every building. Destruction is the next frontier. Every superhero movie from Man Of Steel to Avengers has superheros and villains throwing each other into buildings. They dont have to model every single floor to be different... most office spaces and apartments are typically identical, but they need to exist.

Id be ok with a small graphics upgrade in Spiderman 2 if they really push the traversal speeds and destruction. Fuck Queens. Lived there for ten years. It's a boring setting for a video game. Stick with Manhattan and make it destructible.

Imagine something like Man of Steel where every boss battle leaves NYC in ruins. It could even work like a morality system a la Infamous which kept track of how many civilians you accidentally killed as collateral damage and changed how the citizens view you. If it's static like the open worlds of today, its going to immediately feel dated.

 

[gundalf]

The PS5 is an amazing piece of tech. The biggest problem with both new consoles are the fact they didn't come with any hardware based DLSS style feature. Tons of the potential of these systems are lost because of them having to push 4K most of the time.

Sure but at one point you have to deliver and DLSS requires integration into the games rendering pipeline, so you don't get it for all games automatically.

 

[adamsapple]

The PS5 is an amazing piece of tech. The biggest problem with both new consoles are the fact they didn't come with any hardware based DLSS style feature. Tons of the potential of these systems are lost because of them having to push 4K most of the time.

The Xbox supposedly supports Intel's XESS and they have their own version of machine learning in Direct ML, but Direct ML has been awol since they talked about it near the consoles launch windows and XeSS has yet to have any big commercial examples of how it works.

We don't really have any FSR 2.0 games on consoles right now either, so there's plenty of untapped potential here.

 

[Loxus]

The PS5 is an amazing piece of tech. The biggest problem with both new consoles are the fact they didn't come with any hardware based DLSS style feature. Tons of the potential of these systems are lost because of them having to push 4K most of the time.

This video from Digital Foundry shows Sony in house upscaling techniques and FSR 2.0 holds up well compared to DLSS.

Even UE5 Temporal Super Resolution (TSR) is a very good upscaler.

I think we should forget about DLSS type techniques in consoles as they don't have any dedicated hardware for it. Even RDNA 2 doesn't have dedicated ML hardware.

 

[mckmas8808]

So what's your new ETA?

You'll start seeing some in late 2023, but 100% in 2024 onwards! Think Spiderman 2 and HellBlade 2. I'm assuming those are late '23 - '24 games.

 

[mckmas8808]

Not talking about the graphics tbh. It was always Cerny's IO design that impressed me more than the PS5's tflops count. The flying traversal speed is what I expected from Sony first party games even before Epic showed their demo, and praised the PS5 'architecture'. I remember Sony showed an insanely fast Spiderman traversal demo way back in 2019.

It sucks Sonys own studios havent taken advantage of what Cerny has created.

We need more PS5-only games first before we say they haven't taken advantage of the IO design. Covid screwed up everything. That plus Sony having literally their WORST lead of Playstation in history! Jim Ryan is literally the WORST!

 

[oldergamer]

Ratchet and Horizon look just as good

gonna disagree with ya on that one.

 

[Salty Popsicle]

True, though ratchet gets the closest due to the warps

I’m actually more interested in open world design that has far more variety and includes extensive indoor architecture

Luckily for you, Starfield isn't too far off.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Luckily for you, Starfield isn't too far off.

We shall see, I am not talking about going to different planets (which involves some level of loading)

I am mainly talking about exploring a town, entering a huge building with vastly different assets

Most localized areas re-use the save assets due to loading, which is why we have games with areas in the immediate vicinity that all look the same

 

[SlimySnake]

We need more PS5-only games first before we say they haven't taken advantage of the IO design. Covid screwed up everything. That plus Sony having literally their WORST lead of Playstation in history! Jim Ryan is literally the WORST!

Ratchet started dev in 2019 and spent more dev time inside covid19 lockdowns than it did before. Still released on time just 6 months after the PS5 launch.

We need to stop blaming Covid on everything. Horizon, GT7, GOW, Miles were all greenlit in 2017-2018 as last gen titles. That is why we are in this mess. No one bothered to utilize Cerny's hardware. All those tweets from devs about Cerny's so called 'revolutionary' architecture and all those lazy cunts were making last gen trash.

I have seen Cerny's hardware in action. The spiderman demo was incredible. UE5 demo was even better. Matrix straight up fooled me into thinking I was playing an FMV. I am graphics whore who didnt realize that onrails section was realtime graphics until after they put me on the streets. The console (in fact both consoles) are insanely capable. The devs and publishers have simply not delivered. Lets hope those Mark Cerny MGS1 remake rumors are true and he's taken it in own hands to show what this console can do.

 

[oldergamer]

This video from Digital Foundry shows Sony in house upscaling techniques and FSR 2.0 holds up well compared to DLSS.

Even UE5 Temporal Super Resolution (TSR) is a very good upscaler.

I think we should forget about DLSS type techniques in consoles as they don't have any dedicated hardware for it. Even RDNA 2 doesn't have dedicated ML hardware.

They don't need the specialized hardware to do it. it can be accomplished in todays games with a minimal performance hit using the AMD upscaling tech

 

[oldergamer]

Ratchet started dev in 2019 and spent more dev time inside covid19 lockdowns than it did before. Still released on time just 6 months after the PS5 launch.

We need to stop blaming Covid on everything. Horizon, GT7, GOW, Miles were all greenlit in 2017-2018 as last gen titles. That is why we are in this mess. No one bothered to utilize Cerny's hardware. All those tweets from devs about Cerny's so called 'revolutionary' architecture and all those lazy cunts were making last gen trash.

I have seen Cerny's hardware in action. The spiderman demo was incredible. UE5 demo was even better. Matrix straight up fooled me into thinking I was playing an FMV. I am graphics whore who didnt realize that onrails section was realtime graphics until after they put me on the streets. The console (in fact both consoles) are insanely capable. The devs and publishers have simply not delivered. Lets hope those Mark Cerny MGS1 remake rumors are true and he's taken it in own hands to show what this console can do.

Its a short game. Lets call a spade a spade, looked great, but was short.

 

[SlimySnake]

Its a short game. Lets call a spade a spade, looked great, but was short.

does it matter? HFW, GT7 and GOW took 4.5-5 years and look and feel last gen.

 

[oldergamer]

does it matter? HFW, GT7 and GOW took 4.5-5 years and look and feel last gen.

Not sure I get your point. shorter games was due to covid. Miles Morales was also short.

 

[Loxus]

They don't need the specialized hardware to do it. it can be accomplished in todays games with a minimal performance hit using the AMD upscaling tech

The only currently updated AMD upscaling tech I know of is FSR.

If you meant dedicated ML upscaling, we'll have to wait for RDNA 3 and FSR 3.
AMD RDNA 3 ‘GFX11’ GPUs May Feature Hardware-Accelerated FSR 3.0 Tech Thanks To WMMA ‘Wave Matrix-Multiply-Accumulate’ Instructions

 

[SlimySnake]

Not sure I get your point. shorter games was due to covid. Miles Morales was also short.

I guess I dont get what you are trying to say here either. I was praising Ratchet for aiming for next gen despite doing most of their dev inside the pandemic. The only difference between them and other cross gen games is that they always targeted next gen hardware, next gen visuals, next gen tech (portals) and didnt blame anything on covid.

 

[JackMcGunns]

With Sony purchasing a major part of Epic games in 2020, followed by a 1 billion commitment to purchase another massive stake in the company, you would think it's pretty obvious they would be singing praises (Whether or not it's deserving, don't get me wrong).

 

[JackMcGunns]

Is that true??

Around the 4:30 mark



Edit: snap, is this a necro bump? lol, was already posted and almost the same wording... creepy.

 

[SlimySnake]

Around the 4:30 mark

lmao. I am dying here.

John Carmack > Tim Sweeney

I remember John Carmack just trashing the PS3 every chance he got. He did end up coming around on it by the time they shipped Rage, but that was mostly because the PS3 had a bluray drive and HDDs were standard.

"we don’t know of anything we can do to improve ps3 performance much, especially on wasteland. Tight memory, poor IO performance.

"The PS3 does lag a little bit behind in terms of getting the performance out of it. The rasteriser is just a little bit slower – no two ways about that. The RSX is slower than what we have in the 360. Processing wise, the main CPU is about the same, but the 360 makes it easier to split things off, and that’s where a lot of the work has been, splitting it all into jobs on the PS3."

Also this hilarious interview with Geoff where he falls for every single bait Geoff puts in front of him.



That said, the man called it. The PS3 cell did help devs who went the extra mile and by the end of the generation, Sony's first party games were in a league of their own. I really fucking hope Sony devs do the same with the PS5 IO because I truly believe its perhaps even more ambitious than the Cell ever was.

 

[Loxus]

That said, the man called it. The PS3 cell did help devs who went the extra mile and by the end of the generation, Sony's first party games were in a league of their own. I really fucking hope Sony devs do the same with the PS5 IO because I truly believe its perhaps even more ambitious than the Cell ever was.

No doubt in my mind future games from Sony will be next level.

This video was shown off behind closed doors. It shows a demo of less than a second load times and moving through Spiderman's city at insanely fast speed. This is what Tim Sweeney meant by "Masterpiece of system design".



That's what has me most excited about next-gen.

 

[SlimySnake]

No doubt in my mind future games from Sony will be next level.

This video was shown off behind closed doors. It shows a demo of less than a second load times and moving through Spiderman's city at insanely fast speed. This is what Tim Sweeney meant by "Masterpiece of system design".



That's what has me most excited about next-gen.

yep. i love that demo. That is what sold me and made me laugh at Alex downplaying the SSD on era. I had seen it with my own eyes way back in 2019. It's no PR talk.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Around the 4:30 mark



Edit: snap, is this a necro bump? lol, was already posted and almost the same wording... creepy.

This keeps coming up, but if you were a developer you would know he was talking about early PS3 use - just the PPE and the RSX, no SPUs, EiB, etc - which as a 3.2GHz 2way CPU and highend GPU - compared to PC - with 256MB RAM and 256MB VRAM, at the time was very easy for developers.

It is comprehension that is the issue, of non-technical people listening, not the words he said

 

[JackMcGunns]

This keeps coming up, but if you were a developer you would know he was talking about early PS3 use - just the PPE and the RSX, no SPUs, EiB, etc - which as a 3.2GHz 2way CPU and highend GPU - compared to PC - with 256MB RAM and 256MB VRAM, at the time was very easy for developers.

It is comprehension that is the issue, of non-technical people listening, not the words he said

This was not a SIGGRAPH presentation lol. This presentation was scripted and came at the heel of all the rumors, including John Carmack comments that the PS3 would be difficult to develop for in order to extract anything close to its theoretical power. Let's not be disingenuous.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

The Xbox supposedly supports Intel's XESS and they have their own version of machine learning in Direct ML, but Direct ML has been awol since they talked about it near the consoles launch windows and XeSS has yet to have any big commercial examples of how it works.

We don't really have any FSR 2.0 games on consoles right now either, so there's plenty of untapped potential here.

Any console or platform with a GPU can support XESS because it has two paths; one exclusively for Intel's XMC cores, and on other GPUs without it via DP4a Mode.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Ratchet started dev in 2019 and spent more dev time inside covid19 lockdowns than it did before. Still released on time just 6 months after the PS5 launch.

We need to stop blaming Covid on everything. Horizon, GT7, GOW, Miles were all greenlit in 2017-2018 as last gen titles. That is why we are in this mess. No one bothered to utilize Cerny's hardware. All those tweets from devs about Cerny's so called 'revolutionary' architecture and all those lazy cunts were making last gen trash.

I have seen Cerny's hardware in action. The spiderman demo was incredible. UE5 demo was even better. Matrix straight up fooled me into thinking I was playing an FMV. I am graphics whore who didnt realize that onrails section was realtime graphics until after they put me on the streets. The console (in fact both consoles) are insanely capable. The devs and publishers have simply not delivered. Lets hope those Mark Cerny MGS1 remake rumors are true and he's taken it in own hands to show what this console can do.

GT7's 2GB 1.20 patch takes about 20mins to install after download on PS5, I mean WTF? So it hasn't even had its IO updated to PS4 level, it is still just GT6's tiny files problem.

Game is still amazing with the new pad, but unless an old PS2 GT4 asset was on screen, or it was a new car exclusive to GT7, I would barely register any visual difference between GT6 and GT7 in-game - on my TV using the X1 Extreme processor. It still looks great and polished but hardly a good use of the other 10TF/s in the PS5 over the PS3.

 

[SlimySnake]

GT7's 2GB 1.20 patch takes about 20mins to install after download on PS5, I mean WTF? So it hasn't even had its IO updated to PS4 level, it is still just GT6's tiny files problem.

Game is still amazing with the new pad, but unless an old PS2 GT4 asset was on screen, or it was a new car exclusive to GT7, I would barely register any visual difference between GT6 and GT7 in-game - on my TV using the X1 Extreme processor. It still looks great and polished but hardly a good use of the other 10TF/s in the PS5 over the PS3.

Yeah, those post download copying times drive me nuts. I thought Cerny specifically said those things would be a thing of the past in PS5 games. What do you think happened here? The game is built on the PS5 sdk. It has fast loading so why cant they simply load files they need instead of recompiling the whole 100 GB game?

Do you know if Returnal, Demon Souls and Ratchet have similar post install copying data screens?

 

[PaintTinJr]

Yeah, those post download copying times drive me nuts. I thought Cerny specifically said those things would be a thing of the past in PS5 games. What do you think happened here? The game is built on the PS5 sdk. It has fast loading so why cant they simply load files they need instead of recompiling the whole 100 GB game?

Do you know if Returnal, Demon Souls and Ratchet have similar post install copying data screens?

I'm pretty sure this is the only time I've seen this.

I expect it is still a PS3 game with the engine running in an emulator and the online requirement is so we will never have all the stuff on a console to find that out. They never produced a mainline GT on PS4, so the game code was never updated IMO.

 

[SlimySnake]

I'm pretty sure this is the only time I've seen this.

I expect it is still a PS3 game with the engine running in an emulator and the online requirement is so we will never have all the stuff on a console to find that out. They never produced a mainline GT on PS4, so the game code was never updated IMO.

Oh I just realized you did mean to compare it to GT6 and not Sports lol. Oh its definitely a PS4 game. Visually I thought the game featured stunning visuals in Sports. The lighting in overcast conditions was a huge upgrade over the PS3 era.

But as for the copying data bs post patch, its been a part of PS OS since the PS3 era yes. I remember I couldnt download some games on my 40 GB PS3 because Sony liked to reserve 2x the HDD space for installs and some of the bigger 20 GB games couldnt be downloaded even on an empty 40 GB HDD because they typically have around 37 GB. It drove me nuts back then but the PS4 games were doing this and several PS5 games are still using that update method.

I think there was a pretty cool gif comparison of GT Sports back when it came out. Difference was pretty good IMO.

 

[bentanchorbolt]

I don't know.

I saw Cyberpunk 2077 running in 4K with RTX and everything else maxxed. Kind of makes any hyperbole about a nearly two year old console seem pretty silly at this point. Consoles are a good value for budget minded gamers. That's about it.

 

[Akuji]

End of generation games will look better then Cyberpunk maxed out @ 4k.
Also Cyberpunk maxed out @ 4k is not playable on any hardware released today.
Stutter extreme, so you throw in DLSS and its a good solution but you still need 3080 level GPU.

Dont get me wrong. The same game will always look better on PC if the developer wants it to.
Its an open plattform where u can throw money against a problem.

The consoles were always about mainstream-ish kinda prices and good performance for that.
The PS4 has shown that with better understanding of the hardware they were able to build incredibly looking games even at the end of a gen.

So not sure where the 3090 hyperbole comparison comes from. If you pay 2000€ for a console in 2020 ( release year of the consoles ) yeah they should've been more powerfull.
But they are 500€ so whatever. Also the amount of individual games that look better then God of War 2018 on a PS5 that are avaiable for PC is very low. PC games dont have the regular heavy hitter anymore.
There is no Crysis, Bioshock, Witcher 2 coming out regularly. Cyberpunk is one of very few examples.

Also Dark Souls on PS5 or Ratchet and Clank look not much worse then Cyberpunk maxed out. Maybe u enjoy the look of cyberpunk more but that is a choice the developer makes. On a technical side they are not as good, but pretty close.