• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

DF: Horizon Forbidden West patch 1.16 drastically improves image quality in the 60fps performance mode

yamaci17

Member
So now use FSR2.0 on multiplat It's like to modify your whole pipeline to improve the IQ reconstruction. I start to think you havent a single clue of what you are talking about and just google it such stuff.
can't provide your sources for your claims, can you?

i knew that documentation by heart, that's how I give it you an example. fsr 2.0 requires a proper TAA to work with, and if you game does not have a proper TAA, they say that implementing a proper TAA into your own pipeline may take 4+ weeks. if it were to take years, they would've said so. if you've your own sources that claim adding motion vectors and TAA to games takes year, i would gladly see them

dude, adding motion vectors are the big part of adding TAA. once you succesfully done it, it is mostly done. then you can roll the carpet, bring in TAA, DLSS, FSR .20, whatever oyu want.


as a matter of fact, i've been following documentations, presentations and knowledge regarding TAA for the past 4 years. at this point, I don't need to "google" stuff. don't YOU worry
 
Last edited:

assurdum

Banned
can't provide your sources for your claims, can you?

i knew that documentation by heart, that's how I give it you an example. fsr 2.0 requires a proper TAA to work with, and if you game does not have a proper TAA, they say that implementing a proper TAA into your own pipeline may take 4+ weeks. if it were to take years, they would've said so. if you've your own sources that claim adding motion vectors and TAA to games takes year, i would gladly see them

dude, adding motion vectors are the big part of adding TAA. once you succesfully done it, it is mostly done. then you can roll the carpet, bring in TAA, DLSS, FSR .20, whatever oyu want.


as a matter of fact, i've been following documentations, presentations and knowledge regarding TAA for the past 4 years. at this point, I don't need to "google" stuff. don't YOU worry
It's not because you read all the documentation you can know how work such update in every single pipeline eh. Again AMD taken a lot of time to refine FSR with motion vector that mean it's not so simple. Why release a first version of FSR without motion vector if it was that easy from the beginning? The 4 week you talking it's about introduce FSR2.0 in a game without it, quite different story, the scope of FSR is exactly that, simplify such operation in short time, you continue to approximate and oversimplify too much this matter.
 
Last edited:

Nezzeroth

Member
I'll download the patch and see it for myself. The game was unplayable to me in its original form. The effects on the corrupted plants gave me headaches.
 

M1987

Member
Are the graphics in performance now comparable to Fidelity? I'm nearly at the end of the game on fidelity but if performance looks good I have no problem starting the game again for comparable graphics and 60fps
 
Last edited:

assurdum

Banned
Are the graphics in performance now comparable to Fidelity? I'm nearly at the end of the game on fidelity but if performance looks good I have no problem starting the game again for comparable graphics and 60fps
They reduced the quantity of the alpha effects as the red spore in the air and their resolution is lower and more pixelated if you pay attention about it.
 
Last edited:

Nezzeroth

Member
I'll download the patch and see it for myself. The game was unplayable to me in its original form. The effects on the corrupted plants gave me headaches.
Looks much, much better now, thank god. It's still not perfect and the pop-in is still present, so I hope they continue to patch it but at least now it's playable on this mode.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Come on Mr Moose, 40FPS at full fidelity is the way to go.

If they didn't announce that mode was coming I might have started to play in 60FPS mode now. Ratchet has confirmed this is the mode to play for me, latterly backed up by Spider-Man(s)

Don't you need a 120 Hz screen to play at 40 fps though?
 

yamaci17

Member
Go to play the other games with broken IQ at 60 fps and go to check if they cared to fix their blurry IQ with the patch. There are many of it.
i think they should add a global sharpening toggle on ps5/xbox sx, like amd/nvidia gpus have on their control panel.

that should enhance all games globally without the need of a patch across all games. adding sharpening on top of blurred TAA games have been a common practice for most games among users, don't worry, it'd also enhance greatly the horrible blurry mess the avengers is, for example


this game for exampel also includes a sharpening toggle. see for urself how much of a difference it creates

(though i have to note, i don't enjoy or like fake artificial sharpness coming from sharpeners) if it floats people's boats, im all in for new features! its such a simple thing too, it can be implemented to any game. it can even be implemented as a global toggle that u can force inject into every game that can be played oon consoles. i think some TVs also have their sharpening filters by themselves, but i think they add input lag and stuff so they're not desirable?

(this is not a discussion inducing answer, just a civil normal answer, let it be civil by ourselves. i sometimes go to extremes and that may hurt some people. im sorry for that)
 
Last edited:
wtf...that intro segment. They changed A LOT of the game!



Even the landscapes on gameplay...you can see a lot more details now:



This is the game they wanted to release...and it's a shame it needed a few more months tbh. The lack of polish i kept complaining is something i finally saw in this video. Shame i got the Platinum by now.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
wtf...that intro segment. They changed A LOT of the game!



Even the landscapes on gameplay...you can see a lot more details now:



This is the game they wanted to release...and it's a shame it needed a few more months tbh. The lack of polish i kept complaining is something i finally saw in this video. Shame i got the Platinum by now.

That "unpatched" version was first in a day one patch, I believe.
 

Markio128

Member
Considering it’s a cross-gen game, it looks incredible.
I only wish From had the ability to release such a game changing patch for Elden Ring.
 

SlimySnake

Gold Member
wtf...that intro segment. They changed A LOT of the game!



Even the landscapes on gameplay...you can see a lot more details now:



This is the game they wanted to release...and it's a shame it needed a few more months tbh. The lack of polish i kept complaining is something i finally saw in this video. Shame i got the Platinum by now.
Day one patch fixed these issues. Yes, the game was buggy at launch but these particular issues are only in the unpatched game.
 

Kuranghi

Gold Member
The vegetation not moving is a bit rubbish, takes away a lot of what makes it feel so alive, The clips I saw showed different weather on the Perf side where the wind wasn't blowing the trees in the background. The image stability is way, way better now compared to the previous Perf mode but then when the vegetation is moving again its still fizzy as fuck. Its still 3200x1800 CBR (So 5,760,000 output pixels, though not really the same as native 1800p obviously, close though) vs. native 3840x2160 (8,294,400 pixels) though so even with the new methods to clean up the image + the extra sharpening I don't see Perf really approaching the Fidelity modes IQ so I'll stick with that I'm sure, I will check it natively first though of course.

The input lag is so good in the Fidelity mode I don't really care about the extra motion resolution of the Perf mode, because that mode degrades the image so much imo that I don't get the same pleasure from playing the game, ie looking at the faces during cutscenes, out over vistas or hiding in the bushes observing robits. I'm very glad people that do want that motion resolution increase and input lag reduction can play it properly now though, if you can't stand 30 fps then it wasn't a good way to play the game before imo, I would've just said to people to wait and thankfully they've fixed/mitigated the issues as best they can now. Everyone wins!

Day one patch fixed these issues. Yes, the game was buggy at launch but these particular issues are only in the unpatched game.

Yeah I was thinking this, it had the disappearing buildings in the Fidelity mode too, it happened after the hard cuts in the intro mostly, it was obviously loading tons of data and it didn't do it properly I guess.
 
Last edited:

ANDS

Thought gaf was racist. Now knows better, honorary gaffer 2022
The last two pages of this thread being dominated by two people arguing AT each other over TAA is just peak. . .peakness.

As for the game, honestly was satisfied with the fidelity mode during the initial launch window, glad we've got a real souped up version (for when I manage to get back to the game - gamings just crazy good these days).
 

assurdum

Banned
The vegetation not moving is a bit rubbish, takes away a lot of what makes it feel so alive, the image stability is way, way better obviously but then when the vegetation is moving again its still fizzy as fuck. Its still 3200x1800 CBR (So 5,760,000 output pixels, though not really the same as native 1800p obviously, close though) vs. native 3840x2160 (8,294,400 pixels) though so even with the new methods to clean up the image + the extra sharpening I don't see Perf really approaching the Fidelity modes IQ so I'll stick with that I'm sure, will see it natively first though of course.

The input lag is so good in the Fidelity mode I don't really care about the extra motion resolution of the Perf mode, because that mode degrades the image so much imo that I don't get the same pleasure from playing the game, ie looking at the faces during cutscenes, out over vistas or hiding in the bushes observing robits. I'm very glad people that do want that motion resolution increase and input lag reduction can play it properly now though, if you can't stand 30 fps then it wasn't a good way to play the game before imo, I would've just said to people to wait and thankfully they've fixed/mitigated the issues as best they can now. Everyone wins!



Yeah I was thinking this, it had the disappearing buildings in the Fidelity mode too, it happened after the hard cuts in the intro mostly, it was obviously loading tons of data and it didn't do it properly I guess.
We can stop to spread this fake information? Even in the DF video you can see the vegetation moving as the unpatched version.
 

NeonGhost

uses 'M$' - What year is it? Not 2002.
I don’t understand stand the point of this video so many people said there was no shimmering at all and people just had cheap tvs
 

Kuranghi

Gold Member
We can stop to spread this fake information? Even in the DF video you can see the vegetation moving as the unpatched version.

If thats the case then I apologise, I was going by this part of the video posted on the first page:



I can see the nearby flora moving, but the trees in the background are completely static from what I can see, unless I'm missing something.
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
not enough motion comparions to see how smeary+sharpened game looks in motion.
There's plenty - also an OLED/LCD only resolves around 600 lines in motion(and that's at 60, it's worse at 30) - so if you actually care about motion-resolution, chances of Fidelity mode holding up better are close to non-existent (when things do look sharper - it's because they're not moving - it's the main reason why everything from TAA to DLSS holds up so well on modern panel-tech).
 

yamaci17

Member
The last two pages of this thread being dominated by two people arguing AT each other over TAA is just peak. . .peakness.

As for the game, honestly was satisfied with the fidelity mode during the initial launch window, glad we've got a real souped up version (for when I manage to get back to the game - gamings just crazy good these days).
i hate taa btw
he says alex would be proud of me, but alex and his cohort from DF are huge shills for TAA. and for that, i actually dislike them :messenger_smiling_with_eyes:
If thats the case then I apologise, I was going by this part of the video posted on the first page:



I can see the nearby flora moving, but the trees in the background are completely static from what I can see, unless I'm missing something.
same efffect could be observed with dlss implementation in HZD. when u enable DLSS, foliage sway less (they still sway, but not as much). i have no idea why.
 

Kuranghi

Gold Member
I don’t understand stand the point of this video so many people said there was no shimmering at all and people just had cheap tvs

Yeah thats a puzzling one because most people have sharpening turned on/up on their TV so that would make the shimmering 10x worse, I don't have it on on my TV but I had a OS bug where the sharpening went to max without me doing it and it looked fucking mental even in the Fidelity mode, so I can't imagine how bad the Perf mode was.

Only thing I can think is that they had giant (75"+) 1080p TVs or something and that blurred it heavily, but even then I think you'd still see it tbh. Maybe they had negative sharpening applied, seems like an extreme edge case though if so.
 

SlimySnake

Gold Member
Yeah I was thinking this, it had the disappearing buildings in the Fidelity mode too, it happened after the hard cuts in the intro mostly, it was obviously loading tons of data and it didn't do it properly I guess.
Yep. The game starts off with her riding off from Meridian all the way to the forbidden west while visiting several areas from the first game. All in realtime with no loading. Likely thanks to the SSD and 2x more vram. I dont see how they do this on the PS4 without a pre-rendered video.

The fact that they were able to fix it by day one leads me to believe that they do have the means to have Aloy fly faster. I still see some pop-in from time to time on the PS5 which annoys me because that should not be happening at such low flying speeds, but I bet if they optimize their streaming engine for the PS5 just like they did for the intro, they could have Aloy fly much faster without the fear of level detail not loading in like it did in the unpatched intro.

I do wonder just how much the SSD comes into play with pop-in vs the GPU. The GPU still has the main job of rendering everything the SSD feeds it, but the PS5 GPU and vram bandwidth should be enough to render last gen assets at a faster speed like we saw in this Spiderman demo:

 

Kuranghi

Gold Member
It's the nature of the dynamic weather. Go to check to 8.05 minute.

Ah got ya pal, my mistake, I'll edit my post. Kind of a dummy not thinking of that really, I saw several clips where it wasn't moving in another video so I just assumed like I shouldn't have.
 
Last edited:

Dibils2k

Member
its really annoying this stuff isnt in day one, its a pretty crucial improvement

literally played 30fps mode cause clarity was just too shit in 60fps

would love to have played through the game first time like how it is now
 
Last edited:

assurdum

Banned
i hate taa btw
he says alex would be proud of me, but alex and his cohort from DF are huge shills for TAA. and for that, i actually dislike them :messenger_smiling_with_eyes:

same efffect could be observed with dlss implementation in HZD. when u enable DLSS, foliage sway less (they still sway, but not as much). i have no idea why.
Again insert the motion vector, modify the kernel storage to decrease the ghosting effect isnt just improve "TAA" as the idiotic Dictator said. You have to check how all the pipeline rendering "react", at least from my humble limited knowledge.
 
Last edited:

yamaci17

Member
Again introduce motion vector, modify the kernel storage to eliminate the ghosting effect isnt just improve "TAA" as the idiotic Dictator said.
im a person who dubs dlss 2 as a "fancy, glorified taa". you wont be able to reason with me on such terms lmao

respect for trying tho
 
Last edited:
Yep. The game starts off with her riding off from Meridian all the way to the forbidden west while visiting several areas from the first game. All in realtime with no loading. Likely thanks to the SSD and 2x more vram. I dont see how they do this on the PS4 without a pre-rendered video.

The fact that they were able to fix it by day one leads me to believe that they do have the means to have Aloy fly faster. I still see some pop-in from time to time on the PS5 which annoys me because that should not be happening at such low flying speeds, but I bet if they optimize their streaming engine for the PS5 just like they did for the intro, they could have Aloy fly much faster without the fear of level detail not loading in like it did in the unpatched intro.

I do wonder just how much the SSD comes into play with pop-in vs the GPU. The GPU still has the main job of rendering everything the SSD feeds it, but the PS5 GPU and vram bandwidth should be enough to render last gen assets at a faster speed like we saw in this Spiderman demo:


Good point. Even after the latest patch, I still experience annoying pop in both on foot, mount and flying mount. I would have thought the SSD would be able to fix this, but I think it maybe more complicated than that, like you said it maybe the case of developers having to re-do their asset streaming pipeline to take advantage of the high bandwidth of the SSD. Similar to what we're seeing in that Spiderman demo, and what we saw in UE5 flying sequence (Lumen in The Land of Nanite).

On top of the asset streaming pipeline, they'll also need a robust LOD management system, and geometry rendering system (this can be achieved relatively easy with Primitive/Mesh Shaders).

I'm also willing to bet GG developers leveraged the SSD for streaming in the realtime cutscenes, but also for streaming the high resolution textures, similar with what SSM doing to GOWR.

I've seen posters try to say the GPU will be bottlenecked because it has to render more, that lacks context as it will be developers job to ensure such bottlenecks don't occur, the net gain over using the SSD over the HDD is still significant.
 
Last edited:

yamaci17

Member
I think you are free to believe whatever you want. But it's really disgenerous how you oversemplify a lot of this stuff.

nope, i dont oversimplify any of the process. i'm sure it will take some months even with a talented dev on a game that has the scope of HFW. i just say that, the whole process became a standard among most aaa games (which u refuted, saying they look blurry or stuff, which as i've said, can be countered with sharpening, which what guerilla decided to) they could've done this work before launching the game, or post pone the launch of the game for this alone. because its a critical feature for the graphical presentation. all those technical stuff? almost %99 of them applies to almost all games with TAA that is not a shimmery mess. okay?

i just think they should be held accountable and such a critical feature should be there on day 1 for all players to enjoy. it practically became a reason for most people to be forced to play at 30 fps because of heavy shimmering

u even said rdr2 looks weird on ps4 pro, i never saw such wide spread claims


i dont see any shimmering on trees and stuff

applauding them for a proper taa in 2022 is like applauding a dev for adding shadows to a game which launched without shadows (see, can you imagine a game being released without a proper shadow implementation? that's how crucial proper TAA implementation is for Deferred Rendering engines such as theirs)
 
Last edited:

azertydu91

Hard to Kill
Yep. The game starts off with her riding off from Meridian all the way to the forbidden west while visiting several areas from the first game. All in realtime with no loading. Likely thanks to the SSD and 2x more vram. I dont see how they do this on the PS4 without a pre-rendered video.

The fact that they were able to fix it by day one leads me to believe that they do have the means to have Aloy fly faster. I still see some pop-in from time to time on the PS5 which annoys me because that should not be happening at such low flying speeds, but I bet if they optimize their streaming engine for the PS5 just like they did for the intro, they could have Aloy fly much faster without the fear of level detail not loading in like it did in the unpatched intro.

I do wonder just how much the SSD comes into play with pop-in vs the GPU. The GPU still has the main job of rendering everything the SSD feeds it, but the PS5 GPU and vram bandwidth should be enough to render last gen assets at a faster speed like we saw in this Spiderman demo:

Honestly it is good to see you a bit more positive, these last few month/years you felt totally bitter about the gaming industry.So much that I was wondering if you were going through a rough patch in your life...That's not a judgement or anything, I'm just happy to see you more positive...
On a more topic related note, I'm glad that they fixed the 60 fps visuals but I will wait for that 40 fps patch to replay the game(and those transmog because my favorite outfit doesn't match the way I play the game, the trap specialized legendary one) and I wonder what are the new game + weapons they added.
 

yamaci17

Member
I think you are free to believe whatever you want. But it's really disgenerous how you oversemplify a lot of this stuff.
btw sniper elite 5 is a shimmery mess on all consoles

once they patch in a proper taa, i will tag you in. see how supportive and positive you will be towards that

edit: on second thought, sniper elite 5 is most likely our only chance. i dont honestly think no other AAA developer would release such a game with sloppy TAA
 
Last edited:

lh032

I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
Did you play it in Fidelity mode the first time through?
yes of course, because performance mode is not really good before this patch.
But then i still stick with the performance mode before this patch anyway, I switch back from fidelity to performance mode after a few minutes of gameplay, 30fps feels too slow for me now.
No matter how good fidelity mode is, 60 fps is more important for me.

Its just that this patch gives me even less reason to game on fidelity mode.
 
Last edited:

Mahavastu

Member
Well frankly CBR on pro was awful with vegetation, go to check the BC games. Good to know the "brute force" of ps5 help to improve the quality of CBR, it's really a great news.
The ones I saw looked pretty good... These are games like God of war, Horizon Zero Dawn, Ghost of Tsushima and several more I cant remember at the moment. Anyway, I never had a Pro and went directly from base PS4 to PS5


On those games you had to look really really close to see problems, and thats on a 125" screen with less then 3m sitting distance.
 
Last edited:
But it’s just a sharpening filter!!! What a fraud
And he is actually wrong and actually didn't understand what the dev said to John. They didn't simply "adjusted the type of TAA", they actually heavily modified their CBR method which relies on reconstruction from current and previous frame. The dev called it TAA when he was talking of reconstruction with CBR.

There is confusion because all temporal reconstruction methods are based more or less on TAA: like DLSS or FSR2 etc. He really has no place at DF. The others at least don't spout nonsense when they don't know.
 
Last edited:
Guerrilla Games are a damn fine developer for sure but it is a real shame that they released Horizon: Forbidden West with its awful flickery image quality in Performance mode because I ended up playing the majority of the game in the 30 fps Fidelity mode at a time when I really would have preferred to have played it at 60 fps but the dreadful visual shimmering always made me switch back to 30 fps. What made it worse was that Horizon: Zero Dawn has just gotten a 60 fps patch for its superior 4K checkerboard mode and that just highlighted how flawed the 1800p checkboard mode was in the sequel.

What astounds me is that they apparently released it and thought the image quality was okay. It only took YouTube videos and complaints from players for them to actually fix it but the reality is that most people will have already finished the game in its original state so these improvements, while commendable, have come a bit too late. Hopefully, they have learnt from this and we won't see this issue in future games.
 

Shmunter

Member
Guerrilla Games are a damn fine developer for sure but it is a real shame that they released Horizon: Forbidden West with its awful flickery image quality in Performance mode because I ended up playing the majority of the game in the 30 fps Fidelity mode at a time when I really would have preferred to have played it at 60 fps but the dreadful visual shimmering always made me switch back to 30 fps. What made it worse was that Horizon: Zero Dawn has just gotten a 60 fps patch for its superior 4K checkerboard mode and that just highlighted how flawed the 1800p checkboard mode was in the sequel.

What astounds me is that they apparently released it and thought the image quality was okay. It only took YouTube videos and complaints from players for them to actually fix it but the reality is that most people will have already finished the game in its original state so these improvements, while commendable, have come a bit too late. Hopefully, they have learnt from this and we won't see this issue in future games.
Yeah, embarrassing, inept, disrespectful. Call it what you will
 

Duchess

Member
I honestly never noticed the shimmering, etc. Perhaps due to 42" 1080p display and also sitting some 7-8 feet away..?

(could also be that my eyes aren't what they used to be..!)
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom