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DF: Horizon Forbidden West patch 1.16 drastically improves image quality in the 60fps performance mode

yamaci17

Member
too late, i caught your edit. that's how miserable you are.

 

DukeNukem00

Banned

Self-proclaimed prophet, he gave GG the solution back in February!


jesus christ, im feeling so much second hand embarasment from this tweet. His first two suggestions are basically "make it better" and the other two are just tech words he found on google. They probably dont even work as he thinks they do. Im putting this embarassing tweet on his young age, 20 something.
 

assurdum

Banned
iTs NoT jUSt ShARPenIng. Are you having mental breakdown down there? I never said it is just sharpening. I explicitly, OPENLY wrote that it is TAA with more frames+heavy sharpening. TAA with more frames is a literal element that helped ensuring the elimination of shimmering. the video reviewer tells it so.

shimmering was mostly non existent in all heavy-TAA games released since 2018. they didn't do any magical stuff. they just used more frames with their TAA. go check out any aaa game with heavy TAA that uses lots of previous frames when rendering a scene. they do not have shimmer. rdr 2 does not have shimmering. god of war does not have shimmering. many more AAA titles do not exhibit shimmering. they just tried a different approach, and met with heavy criticism

by the way, you need to get a course on reading comprehension. clearly you lack it
You have a mental breakdown. TAA cover the pixels, not reconstruct them. They should have improved the CBR precision in some way because just more frame with TAA doesn't fix CBR rendering. And relax man, no need to make two post about personal insult, talking about miserable attitude.
 
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yamaci17

Member
You have a mental breakdown. TAA cover the pixels, not reconstruct them.

you are the one who is having a mental breakdown, trying to make sneaky "edits". go keep editing that post.

rdr2
https://imgsli.com/NjAxMTA


here vegetation shimmering just like fw used to do
dlss= fancy fully fledged taa
oh, magically shimmering is fixed

guerilla deciding to use fully fledged taa with better motion vectors and more frames to use from history = improved TAA

+ heavy obnoxious sharpening that ruins the natural intended look of the game but hey it is their product

exact same phenomeno too: heavier TAA, lesser foliage movement (so that they do not ghost like crazy). yeah, go on. watch the video again. inform yourself before attacking people mindlessly
 
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assurdum

Banned
you are the one who is having a mental breakdown, trying to make sneaky "edits". go keep editing that post.

rdr2
https://imgsli.com/NjAxMTA


here vegetation shimmering just like fw used to do
dlss= fancy fully fledged taa
oh, magically shimmering is fixed

guerilla deciding to use fully fledged taa with better motion vectors and more frames to use from history = improved TAA

+ heavy obnoxious sharpening that ruins the natural intended look of the game but hey it is their product
So now use motion vector is improved TAA with more frames. Sure dude sure. I'm not making sneaky edit, I just correct the syntax paranoic man.
 
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kyliethicc

Member
Found this bit interesting

In the age of 'next generation' upscaling techniques, there's been some confusion as to why Guerrilla persisted with checkerboard rendering and the studio was happy to give a few reasons why.

"DLSS 2.0, FSR 2.0 and checkerboard rendering are all different ways to render fewer pixels per frame than the actual output has, and then reconstruct a higher-res result over time," explains Giliam de Carpentier. "And so, this means that the distance between rendered pixels is always going to be bigger than the distance between output pixels. But with checkerboard rendering, the distance between rows and columns in the rendered image and resolved image will still remain the same, which means that most edges (being typically either mostly horizontal or mostly vertical) won't be able to 'fall through the cracks' as easily and therefore won't as easily get missed completely one frame and be visible the next again.

"This results in data that has the potential to keep thin edges more stable more reliably but is also more complex to use optimally. But the new custom AA resolve is a definite step up in tapping into this potential, by distinguishing much more reliably between data than can be reused (in order to reduce shimmering), and data that has gotten too different (in order to prevent ghosting). And this is still paired with our checkerboard-compatible version of FXAA as well to make the most out of even single-frame data."
 

yamaci17

Member
So now use motion vector is improved TAA with more frames. Sure dude sure. I'm not making sneaky edit, I just correct the syntax paranoic man.
yes, because you practically need proper motion vectors so that you can use more frames when projection past frames into current ones.

its a feature that practically even the AA game developers conform nowadays (hellblade comes to my mind, exhibiting no shimmering or fuzziness or whatsoever. just a simple example). guerilla wanted to have a different direction, and they got criticized for it. now their game have proper TAA that matches the standards of other games.

it was their fault to have that shimmering and not so proper TAA to begin with. and now you applaud them because they did not do a thing that became standard among AAA games for the past 6 years. there's nothing to applaud. if anything, it is just shameful. it just proves that they rushed the game right out of the gate without motion vectors and forced people to play at 30 FPS if they wanted to image quality without heavy shimmering and fuzziness

calling them tech wizard for employing proper motion vectors, and by extension, TAA with more frames is just disingenious

there's nothing magical in this. they just did what they should've done before the release of the game.
 
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assurdum

Banned
yes, because you practically need proper motion vectors so that you can use more frames when projection past frames into current ones.

its a feature that practically even the AA game developers conform nowadays (hellblade comes to my mind, exhibiting no shimmering or fuzziness or whatsoever. just a simple example). guerilla wanted to have a different direction, and they got criticized for it. now their game have proper TAA that matches the standards of other games.

it was their fault to have that shimmering and not so proper TAA to begin with. and now you applaud them because they did not do a thing that became standard among AAA games for the past 6 years. there's nothing to applaud. if anything, it is just shameful. it just proves that they rushed the game right out of the gate without motion vectors and forced people to play at 30 FPS if they wanted to image quality without heavy shimmering and fuzziness

calling them tech wizard for employing proper motion vectors, and by extension, TAA with more frames is just disingenious
Ok how many game you know which use CBR with motion vector? It's not that easy use CBR rendering and motion vector combined. And in fact they have said to have to fix their AA to work properly with CBR. Go to check what a mess it's RDR2 on ps4 pro which uses CBR and TAA.
 
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yamaci17

Member
Ok I many game you know which use CBR with motion vector?
re village


it has a fantastic TAA implementation that works wonderful with their CBR

rdr 2, as i've mentioned before, although not using CBR directly, has tons of CBR rendered stuff that practically reconstructed by motion vectors and TAA


vanguard uses taa+cbr and has no shimmering. has all the motion vectors needed there, on day one, without needing to patch it in 4 months later to get applauds from their userbase

even the dumb avengers game uses CBR+TAA (SORRy, not so briliant.)


practically, their lacking TAA is replaced by a brilliant TAA. maybe i can accept having elaborating what I meant by an improved TAA. yes, adjusting motion vectors are an admirable thing by itself. if they targeted a brilliant TAA worthy of ps4/ps5 from the start, none of this conversation would take place today.

but its a thing that most aaa devs do at this point. they should be asked as to why they did omit doing that work from the beginning
 
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assurdum

Banned
re village


it has a fantastic TAA implementation that works wonderful with their CBR

rdr 2, as i've mentioned before, although not using CBR directly, has tons of CBR rendered stuff that practically reconstructed by motion vectors and TAA


vanguard uses taa+cbr and has no shimmering. has all the motion vectors needed there, on day one, without needing to patch it in 4 months later to get applauds from their userbase

even the dumb avengers game uses CBR+brilliant TAA

First RE8 used the interlaced signal not the same CBR and it's not DRS but fixed resolution, easier to reconstruct. The only game comparable is The Avengers which was far away to be brilliant in the IQ on ps5. I really invite you to check what an horrible blurry mess is on ps5, especially on the vegetation, because I have it and believe me TAA, drs and CBR with DRS are not that easy to reconstruct and doesn't give fancy IQ on console.
 
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Vick

Member
too late, i caught your edit. that's how miserable you are.
You came in the previous Thread, with no info nor experience outside of people stating how impressive and great this update was, with the clear intent to downplay it for no apparent reason, stating the game must have looked super soft now because of TAA.
When people pointed out to you the game never looked sharper, along with it being cleaner, you stated they then clearly oversharpened the game to death.
Now you came into this Thread, full of positivity, just to start confrontations again and trying to downplay the patch, again, by saying shit like this:

"not enough motion comparions to see how smeary+sharpened game looks in motion. too much stills and minimal movement (camera movement, actual gameplay movement).."

Not sure you're in the position to call other people miserable.
 

yamaci17

Member
First RE8 used the interlaced signal and it's not DRS, the only game comparable is The Avengers. I really invite you to check what an horrible blurry mess is on ps5, especially on the vegetation, because I have it.

now we're on level terms. exactly, if you use heavy TAA that uses a) more frames b) more motion vectors for foliage c) more intensity, you will have a horrible blurry mess

and that's where sharpening is involved. im not saying sharpening is bad. it solves this issue for quite amount of people. if avengers dev used sharpening, it would look much, much better for you (possibly). now you understand me?

heavy taa will create heavy blurring. and if you don't use a sharpening filter, it will look horribly blurry. to my knowledge, vanguard practically has a sharpening toggle for its console versions. and my friend, after enabling it said that game was "revitalized" in terms of graphics. now you understand the importance of sharpening with heavy intense TAA?
 
Just going to wait for things to come to PS extra at this point. Saves me a shit ton of money and should pretty much ensure that the patches are there instead of after having finished it up.
 

yamaci17

Member
You came in the previous Thread, with no info nor experience outside of people stating how impressive and great this update was, with the clear intent to downplay it for no apparent reason, stating the game must have looked super soft now because of TAA.
When people pointed out to you the game never looked sharper, along with it being cleaner, you stated they then clearly oversharpened the game to death.
Now you came into this Thread, full of positivity, just to start confrontations again and trying to downplay the patch, again, by saying shit like this:

"not enough motion comparions to see how smeary+sharpened game looks in motion. too much stills and minimal movement (camera movement, actual gameplay movement).."

Not sure you're in the position to call other people miserable.
no, DF are great TAA shills. they will never show other people the sharpened+smeared image. just like they will never admit TAA destroying every bit of texture quality in modern games. just like %99 of gamers, such as you, will never accept that games never look same when you stand still and when you move the camera. do you see any kind of outrage towards TAA and its destruction of image quality? no. does that make TAA justified, for me? no.

everyone is ignorant to the issue and you're just happy that you can share sharp looking still images on forums and claim that you actually play games with great image quality, in reality, you do not, but as of now it became a collective agreement between gamers to not talk much about TAA blur in movement. but yes, since the TAA blur movement is not being attacked by %99 of the gaming community, it is very natural that you also find sharpened smeary image just fine, or not distractful, because i've clearly stated that at this point, %99 of the people have no idea how a game should or would look without post process sharpening and heavy intense TAA, since it became the norm since 2014

it was a personal jab at DF. no need to take it personal. they practically are heavy shills for TAA.
 
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ShakenG

Member
Wow, complete buildings didn't even show up on the launch version, unfortunate they couldn't have these sorted for release.
At least its all sorted now and i can't wait to dive in, seems like a good time.
 

assurdum

Banned
now we're on level terms. exactly, if you use heavy TAA that uses a) more frames b) more motion vectors for foliage c) more intensity, you will have a horrible blurry mess

and that's where sharpening is involved. im not saying sharpening is bad. it solves this issue for quite amount of people. if avengers dev used sharpening, it would look much, much better for you (possibly). now you understand me?

heavy taa will create heavy blurring. and if you don't use a sharpening filter, it will look horribly blurry. to my knowledge, vanguard practically has a sharpening toggle for its console versions. and my friend, after enabling it said that game was "revitalized" in terms of graphics. now you understand the importance of sharpening with heavy intense TAA?
Listen you come here saying it's TAA+sharpening filter and you finished even Guerrilla is incompetent; now you blame me to be too much aggressive and mental breakdown? The level of approximations you used in your post is inexcusable and again improve CBR rendering with motion vector I think is a bit more rough.
 
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yamaci17

Member
Listen you come here saying it's TAA+sharpening filter and you finished even Guerrilla is incompetent; now you blame me to be too much aggressive and mental breakdown? The level of approximations you used in your post is inexcusable and again CBR is not that easy to use at lower resolution.
im not calling guerilla is in competent. clearly they are competent they did the %90 of the work, creating a large world with various content, quests and characters. adding motion vectors and proper TAA is practically is probably a small feat for their graphics team

i just think they should be held accountable for not providing a proper gaming experience on launch. instead of them being called "wizzurds". the entire game is a work of wizardry by itself. no one can deny that

if we applaud their behavior, you can expect similar whack job from other devs in terms of graphical features.
 
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assurdum

Banned
im not calling guerilla is in competent. clearly they are competent they did the %90 of the work, creating a large world with various content, quests and characters. adding motion vectors and proper TAA is practically is probably a small feat for their graphics team

i just think they should be held accountable for not providing a proper gaming experience on launch. instead of them being called "wizzurds". the entire game is a work of wizardry by itself. no one can deny that

if we applaud their behavior, you can expect similar whack job from other devs in terms of graphical features.
Do you know how much time and work require to code the motion vector and fix the AA rendering in an existent pipeline with CBR+FXAA to improve the IQ? If it was that easy why AMD take so much time to improve the FSR1.0?
 
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yamaci17

Member
Do you know how much time and work require is to code the motion vector and fix the AA rendering in an existent pipeline with CBR+FXAA?
considering crysis 2 and rise of tomb raider have got TAA/DLSS support and added motion vectors , i would say it probably requires a minimal effort. if it were to took long time and heavy investment to add such a thing, they would not bother adding them to such old games since there are no no big financial income to reap
 
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SlimySnake

Member
Wow, complete buildings didn't even show up on the launch version, unfortunate they couldn't have these sorted for release.
At least its all sorted now and i can't wait to dive in, seems like a good time.
Umm, no, that was fixed in the day one patch.

John is testing this without the day one patch.
 

assurdum

Banned
considering crysis 2 and rise of tomb raider have got TAA/DLSS support and added motion vectors , i would say it probably requires a minimal effort. i dont believe if it took a long time to add such a thing, they would not bother adding them to such old games with no big financial income to reap
What. AMD has introduced motion vector just lately in their FSR. They take an year.
 
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SlimySnake

Member
I love how GG literally outlines all the work that had to be done to get this to work properly and Alex and his cronies are like, but but it's just TAA and sharpening!

Senior principal tech programmer Giliam de Carpentier at Guerrilla Games was generous enough to provide a highly detailed breakdown of the process: "In the new AA mode, the world is still rendered using the same alternating checkerboard pattern, but now uses a different way to reuse historic data: the old system only used the current and previous raw render as input for the AA to complete a native 1800p output in two frames, while the new system uses the current raw render and the previous AA output as input for the AA of the new frame. This means it still stabilises to the output resolution in two frames, but now it can also keep on re-using data from older frames for longer, not only adding more stability under movement, but also accumulating more sub-pixel detail in the process.


"This concept itself isn't new, but this is complicated to get right and often comes with its own set of artefacts, such as ghosting, which was prevented inherently in our previous implementation due to its limited reuse of history, even though this did allow pixels to 'shimmer' more under movement. In particular, the previous implementation allowed us to cleanly run all post effects before the AA pass at checkerboard resolution, which is faster than rendering those effect afterwards at the higher output resolution, without introducing ghosting artifacts of sorts.

"And so, switching to a new AA technique that reuses the history for longer meant we had to develop a new bag of tricks that still allowed us to keep doing this cleanly and robustly, even for effects like bloom and depth of field, for example. This included improving and further processing the motion vectors themselves, as well as find new ways to better reject all the out-of-date history while reprojecting actual sub-pixel-thin geometry more confidently and correctly over longer periods. In addition, we also introduced a sharper custom reprojection kernel as well as output sharpening that changes with the dynamic resolution, which helps show the resolved details more clearly and combat visual differences in dynamic resolution more effectively."
"This results in data that has the potential to keep thin edges more stable more reliably but is also more complex to use optimally. But the new custom AA resolve is a definite step up in tapping into this potential, by distinguishing much more reliably between data than can be reused (in order to reduce shimmering), and data that has gotten too different (in order to prevent ghosting). And this is still paired with our checkerboard-compatible version of FXAA as well to make the most out of even single-frame data."
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I started a new game with Ultra Hard once they deployed the patch 1.16.

Fuck it looks so good right now in performance mode.
No reason to play in Fidelity mode.

Did you play it in Fidelity mode the first time through?
 

yamaci17

Member
I love how GG literally outlines all the work that had to be done to get this to work properly and Alex and his cronies are like, but but it's just TAA and sharpening!
"but now uses a different way to reuse historic data" - improved TAA. most games that have TAA use as much as frames possible. they were stubborn to use only 1-2 frames. and now they only achieved AAA development standards. bravo to them.

"get right and often comes with its own set of artefacts, such as ghosting" - improved TAA. ghosting is a prominent result of TAA. more frames, more ghosting. use of better motion vectors = less ghosting = improved TAA

" motion vectors themselves, as well as find new ways to better reject all the out-of-date histor" - improved TAA. as explained above

"we also introduced a sharper custom reprojection kernel " - improved TAA.

as i've said, its just TAA. brilliant, proper, AAA-standard TAA. Halo Infinite have all of these qualities and look fantastic on Series X at 4K. Just a simple example from not so competent devs in 343 (yes, their game is worse than forbidden west. but even they managed to get TAA proper at the launch of the game.


"cronies" lol.

its improved TAA+sharpening

keep on cronning my boy

if such a thing were to happen on any xbox console exc game, you would criticize them to hell for not doing this proper at launch. you wouldn't even call it a success, or wizardry, you would just say "they did their jobs right, 4 months later...".
 
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DJ12

Member
Quite a few improvements.
I noticed this:

I put the game on hold while I played Elden Ring, playing in the 30fps mode. Played a little after this patch and it looks and runs great, not sure if I will wait for the 40fps patch or just play with this mode :messenger_weary:
Come on Mr Moose, 40FPS at full fidelity is the way to go.

If they didn't announce that mode was coming I might have started to play in 60FPS mode now. Ratchet has confirmed this is the mode to play for me, latterly backed up by Spider-Man(s)
 

SlimySnake

Member
Found this bit interesting.
In the age of 'next generation' upscaling techniques, there's been some confusion as to why Guerrilla persisted with checkerboard rendering and the studio was happy to give a few reasons why.

"DLSS 2.0, FSR 2.0 and checkerboard rendering are all different ways to render fewer pixels per frame than the actual output has, and then reconstruct a higher-res result over time," explains Giliam de Carpentier. "And so, this means that the distance between rendered pixels is always going to be bigger than the distance between output pixels. But with checkerboard rendering, the distance between rows and columns in the rendered image and resolved image will still remain the same, which means that most edges (being typically either mostly horizontal or mostly vertical) won't be able to 'fall through the cracks' as easily and therefore won't as easily get missed completely one frame and be visible the next again.

"This results in data that has the potential to keep thin edges more stable more reliably but is also more complex to use optimally. But the new custom AA resolve is a definite step up in tapping into this potential, by distinguishing much more reliably between data than can be reused (in order to reduce shimmering), and data that has gotten too different (in order to prevent ghosting). And this is still paired with our checkerboard-compatible version of FXAA as well to make the most out of even single-frame data."

I wonder if they decided to keep using the checkerboard solution because of its compatibility with FXAA. Would love to see the PC port of this game and compare the FSR 2.0 implementation with DLSS and checkerboarding.

One thing I noticed while playing the game last night is just how busy it feels. Especially in settlements or whenever its snowing or raining. Even after the reduced sharpness, lack of shimmering and HDR brightness flickering issues, the game can literally be an eye sore when it starts snowing in settlements. Too much going on at all times. That's probably why kojima didnt haven an issue with checkerboarding in Death Stranding. It's a very clean game with a very minimalistic art style. Even in the mountainy areas, it doesnt snow that heavily. I think the artists shouldve exercised a bit more restraint here.

Speaking of Death Stranding, it's weird that KojiPro was able to hit 60 fps at native 4k 8.2 million pixels consistently unless you were in boss fights or cutscenes while GG has to go down to 2.8 million pixels. Yes, it's a better looking game but is it really 3x better looking?

I also miss the ultra wide mode with a higher FOV. Another brilliant addition by KojiPro. Locked 60 fps. No need for tv upscaling or FSR/Checkerboard rendering. 1:1 pixels and a massive FOV. Horizon FW is already the best looking game out there, but it would look godly in ultra wide mode.
 
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assurdum

Banned
"but now uses a different way to reuse historic data" - improved TAA. most games that have TAA use as much as frames possible. they were stubborn to use only 1-2 frames. and now they only achieved AAA development standards. bravo to them.

"get right and often comes with its own set of artefacts, such as ghosting" - improved TAA. ghosting is a prominent result of TAA. more frames, more ghosting. use of better motion vectors = less ghosting = improved TAA

" motion vectors themselves, as well as find new ways to better reject all the out-of-date histor" - improved TAA. as explained above

"we also introduced a sharper custom reprojection kernel " - improved TAA.

as i've said, its just TAA. brilliant, proper, AAA-standard TAA. Halo Infinite have all of these qualities and look fantastic on Series X at 4K. Just a simple example from not so competent devs in 343 (yes, their game is worse than forbidden west. but even they managed to get TAA proper at the launch of the game.


"cronies" lol.

its improved TAA+sharpening

keep on cronning my boy

if such a thing were to happen on any xbox console exc game, you would criticize them to hell for not doing this proper at launch. you wouldn't even call it a success, or wizardry, you would just say "they did their jobs right, 4 months later...".
Episode 4 No GIF by Curb Your Enthusiasm
 
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MasterCornholio

Gold Member
"but now uses a different way to reuse historic data" - improved TAA. most games that have TAA use as much as frames possible. they were stubborn to use only 1-2 frames. and now they only achieved AAA development standards. bravo to them.

"get right and often comes with its own set of artefacts, such as ghosting" - improved TAA. ghosting is a prominent result of TAA. more frames, more ghosting. use of better motion vectors = less ghosting = improved TAA

" motion vectors themselves, as well as find new ways to better reject all the out-of-date histor" - improved TAA. as explained above

"we also introduced a sharper custom reprojection kernel " - improved TAA.

as i've said, its just TAA. brilliant, proper, AAA-standard TAA. Halo Infinite have all of these qualities and look fantastic on Series X at 4K. Just a simple example from not so competent devs in 343 (yes, their game is worse than forbidden west. but even they managed to get TAA proper at the launch of the game.


"cronies" lol.

its improved TAA+sharpening

keep on cronning my boy

if such a thing were to happen on any xbox console exc game, you would criticize them to hell for not doing this proper at launch. you wouldn't even call it a success, or wizardry, you would just say "they did their jobs right, 4 months later...".

Honestly you made this about Xbox not SlimySnake SlimySnake .
 

MasterCornholio

Gold Member
I was literally the only one complaining about this in the launch thread at first, and have bitched about it so often since that I am sure I have given DeepEnigma an aneurysm with my constant bitching.

And you also criticized Alex’s impressions. Neither has anything to do with Xbox from what I’m seeing.
 

assurdum

Banned
any resource for that?

here i have a table that has a vague estimation of 4 weeks+.
So now introduce FSR2.0 on multiplat take the same time to modify a whole pipeline to improve the IQ reconstruction via motion vector. I start to think you havent a single clue of what you are talking about and just google it such stuff. You should ask to you why not all games uses DRS or reconstruction method if it's all that fast and easy.
 
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