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[CornBurrito]

Also bacon sucks. Turkey bacon is far better.

 

[Staccat0]

Interesting.
Haven't read the whole article, but I wondwr if there are any numbers for people who manage to say give it up for at least a year turning back.

My wife and I are vegetarian as are about 4 of our friends. We have a pretty mixed social group. These threads always feel a little weird to me becuase in my day to day life I am probably lectured about why I should NOT be a vegetarian about once a month.
It seriously bothers some people.
Meanwhile, I have only seen the reverse on TV and movies. Somehow though, these threads are always full of people who are seemingly being accosted by vegetarians and vegans all the time.

Edit: haha, shoulda read the last page. People are already talking about this.
Yeah, people get downright hostile abojt me being a vegetarian sometimes. It's weird, becuase they will fucking grill you (hur hur) to fogure out why you only ordered sides or whatever.
In a weird way, I blame PETA more than meat eaters though.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

This isn't really true unless you suck at cooking. Meat on the other hand is usually really expensive where I live and it's part of the reason we rarely eat it.

Meat can be frozen and partitioned. Fruits, veggies, etc have a shorter shelf span.

 

[Vagabundo]

Also bacon sucks. Turkey bacon is far better.

No no..

You don't even mention taste, protein and what other nonsense people come up with as an argument. It's simply a thing that lands in your stomach.

It's a pretty sad and telling statement.

Do go on. What nonsense is this?

 

[travisbickle]

You wonder why meat eaters are defensive when you trot out shit like this. I've no problem with vegans/vegetarians etc. Eat what you like but don't start telling me your diet is superior to mine.

He didn't say "superior", he said "more sustainable, ethical, and healthier" if you think that's superior maybe you should look into being a vegetarian?

 

[Neidii]

I don't give two shits about how cattle are treated if they end in my stomach in the end.

this just makes me sad that someone would honestly feel this way.

 

[Staccat0]

Meat can be frozen and partitioned. Fruits, veggies, etc have a shorter shelf span.

I think canning and pickling makes this negligible to any practicle discussion. Especially of we are talkong about about what goes into freezing something vs canning it.

 

[Tambini]

I'm a meat eater, my best friend is a vegan

We don't talk about it and we never try to change each others views and that's a okay with me

 

[GorillaWithDandruff]

Had a couple In-N-Out burgers last night. Lord almighty. Welcome back.

 

[MisterR]

Also bacon sucks. Turkey bacon is far better.

Now I know not to trust your opinion on anything ever.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

How can you tell who is a vegetarian in the room?


Don't worry they'll tell you.


Thats actually lower than I would have thought. I would have assumed 92-96%

 

[V_Arnold]

How can you tell who is a vegetarian in the room?


Don't worry they'll tell you.


Thats actually lower than I would have thought. I would have assumed 92-96%

Haha, haha, such a funny joke! Hah! How dare they!
*lets post some bacon pics in solidarity*

 

[derFeef]

How can you tell who is a vegetarian in the room?


Don't worry they'll tell you.


Thats actually lower than I would have thought. I would have assumed 92-96%

I did not expect that from you. You always seem like a level-headed poster otherwise.

 

[gondwana]

Is there a reason GAF is like militantly anti-vegan/vegetarian? Lurking these threads is painful

Meat can be frozen and partitioned. Fruits, veggies, etc have a shorter shelf span.

That's only problematic for raw foodists. Most non-meat eaters eat legumes, grains and root tubers as caloric staples.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

Oh come now guys its a played out joke. I try to limit my meat intake as much as possible and I think there are definite benefits to being a vegetarian.
My vegan/vegetarian friends do love to remind all of us that they are in fact vegan/vegetarian.

 

[MisterR]

I did not expect that from you. You always seem like a level-headed poster otherwise.

Really? it's a little mild joke.

 

[Vagabundo]

He didn't say "superior", he said "more sustainable, ethical, and healthier" if you think that's superior maybe you should look into being a vegetarian?

I certainly don't consider it superior, and the three claims are what I called bullshit on. I don't believe it is any of those.

EDIT: As an addendum I certainly agree that the western world does eat way too much meat and processed foods, and not enough fish or veggies/beans etc.

 

[Irminsul]

I'm not really ideologically invested in this topic, and I know it would probably be better if I'd eat less meat.

But the one thing I don't get (if it's actually true) is vegans not eating honey. We very much need honeybees for pollination, and there really isn't a difference for them whether they're used by humans or not.

 

[outunderthestars]

Before or after making a bunch of judgmental posts?

Go to any thread of vegetarians and you will find more judgmental/insulting/childish posts from people who eat meat. I will always find it fascinating how people are drawn to vegetarian threads just to comment how much they like meat, as if vegetarians were secretly plotting to remove meat from their lives.

(not a vegetarian)

 

[Shaffield]

I'm not really ideologically invested in this topic, and I know it would probably be better if I'd eat less meat.

But the one thing I don't get (if it's actually true) is vegans not eating honey. We very much need honeybees for pollination, and there really isn't a difference for them whether they're used by humans or not.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...hump-and-bees-get-depressed-the-state-animals

Melissa Bateson and her colleagues have shown when honeybees are stressed, they display an increased expectation of bad outcomes. In other words, they become pessimists (link is external). When similar behavior is observed in vertebrates it's explained as having an emotional basis. The bees also showed altered levels of neurochemicals (dopamine, serotonin, and octopamine) that are associated with depression.

I have some personal qualms with the book, and I generally don't feel disturbed by the emotions of insects, but that's the argument: ethical treatment of bees. And for some it's simply a philosophically strict "no animal products", and honey is produced by animals.

Personally I don't know any vegans who refuse honey.

 

[Messofanego]

Also bacon sucks. Turkey bacon is far better.

First time hearing of turkey bacon, thought bacon was only from pork but now hearing it's something for some religious people who don't like bacon? Weird, do some muslims love bacon so much they want an acceptable alternative

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey_bacon

Turkey bacon is also an alternative for people who do not eat pork for religious or dietary reasons. When Beautiful Brands International, a company from Tulsa, Oklahoma, signed a deal with a Saudi Arabian firm to open 120 locations in eight countries in the Middle East, they had to substitute bacon with Halal turkey bacon in their recipes at Camille's Sidewalk Cafe locations as consumption of pork and non-halal meat is forbidden by Islamic customs.[4]

 

[Shaffield]

I certainly don't consider it superior, and the three claims are what I called bullshit on. I don't believe it is any of those.

Well ethics are personal and health benefits are debatable, but the environmental sustainability is objective due to the increased carbon emissions and usage of water and other vital agricultural resources to raise livestock for meat vs. growing crops for human consumption. A majority of our wheat and corn in the US is used for cattle feed.

 

[Dusk Soldier]

Some of the posts in here are downright embarrassing.

For anyone curious about veganism, here are two talks worth listening to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0VrZPBskpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4HJcq8qHAY

The idea of veganism is pretty simple: consuming animal products inherently leads to animal suffering which we can easily avoid by avoiding those animal products. If you agree that it's wrong to hurt animals unnecessarily, you agree with veganism.

All of this make sense in theory, but when you really stop and think about it. It's not really possible to eat vegan.

Obviously you can't eat meat.

But you can't consume dairy either since it's a meat bi product.

Grains are vegan, but they're typically consumed in the form of either bread, cereal, or noodles, which are often created with non-vegan ingredients like milk, and eggs.

That leaves just fruits, vegetables, and legumes, but only if you turn a blind eye to the hundreds of thousands of insects and rodents that are murdered each week by the agriculture industry.

If you genuinely don't like the taste of meat, don't eat it. I just don't think you should champion abstaining from meat as some sort of ethical, environmentally-conscious lifestyle which veganism does flat out.

 

[outunderthestars]

Well ethics are personal and health benefits are debatable, but the environmental sustainability is objective due to the increased carbon emissions and usage of water and other vital agricultural resources to raise livestock for meat vs. growing crops for human consumption. A majority of our wheat and corn in the US is used for cattle feed.

This one really is hard to debate.

 

[theignoramus]

I respect anyone that goes through these choices.

But I, personally, cannot live without my porkchops.

Ill never give up steaks. I support humane treatment of animals though, for sure, and Im troubled about the ethics of meats like veal.

 

[Vagabundo]

Well ethics are personal and health benefits are debatable, but the environmental sustainability is objective due to the increased carbon emissions and usage of water and other vital agricultural resources to raise livestock for meat vs. growing crops for human consumption. A majority of our wheat and corn in the US is used for cattle feed.

I disagree that shifting over to a completely vegetarian system wont have equivalent or worse effects on the environment. I'd be very much in favour of a far less intensive, more lcoal farming system. We should be eating in season vegetables locally sourced etc. Having live stock as part of that system is entirely sustainable.

Pigs need to be fed more on feed produced by waste food that unsuitable for human consumption. Cattle should be grass fed where possible. The current farming methods have a long way to go. there is no one size fits all system for farming an food production. What would work here in Ireland may not work as well in the US or Africa.

 

[yonder]

All of this make sense in theory, but when you really stop and think about it. It's not really possible to eat vegan.

Obviously you can't eat meat.

But you can't consume dairy either since it's a meat bi product.

Grains are vegan, but they're typically consumed in the form of either bread, cereal, or noodles, which are often created with non-vegan ingredients like milk, and eggs.

That leaves just fruits, vegetables, and legumes, but only if you turn a blind eye to the hundreds of thousands of insects and rodents that are murdered each week by the agriculture industry.

If you genuinely don't like the taste of meat, don't eat it. I just don't think you should champion abstaining from meat as some sort of ethical, environmentally-conscious lifestyle which veganism does flat out.

It's not possible to eat vegan? Are you suggesting that vegans are actually not eating vegan?

Bread, cereal and noodles are all easily vegan and I've never had any problems there. I eat plenty of grains. I'm making some spaghetti with tomato sauce, beans and brussel sprouts while typing this! Also, you're forgetting nuts, seeds, mushrooms, root vegetables and all the artificial vegan products out there. Google image search vegan food and you can get a brief idea of what a vegan diet might look like.

To your point about insects dying, yes, they do die, but animal agriculture causes far more suffering to both insects and obviously to farm animals as well since you have to grow crops to feed the animals. You need less crops in total, meaning fewer insect-deaths in total, if you just eat the crops directly. Veganism is about trying to do the least harm possible within reason.

 

[MrT]

I disagree that shifting over to a completely vegetarian system wont have equivalent or worse effects on the environment. I'd be very much in favour of a far less intensive, more lcoal farming system. We should be eating in season vegetables locally sourced etc. Having live stock as part of that system is entirely sustainable.

Pigs need to be fed more on feed produced by waste food that unsuitable for human consumption. Cattle should be grass fed where possible. The current farming methods have a long way to go. there is no one size fits all system for farming an food production. What would work here in Ireland may not work as well in the US or Africa.

Your scenario may be sustainable yes, but for it to happen people need to drastically reduce their consumption. There's just not enough space on the planet for everyone to eat grass fed ethically treated animals, so in its current method of production, meat is unsustainable. But whenever the topic comes up it's always "you can pry my meat from my cold dead hands" or "stop preaching at me you tofu munching vegan" type attitudes.

 

[Vagabundo]

Your scenario may be sustainable yes, but for it to happen people need to drastically reduce their consumption. There's just not enough space on the planet for everyone to eat grass fed ethically treated animals, so in its current method of production, meat is unsustainable. But whenever the topic comes up it's always "you can pry my meat from my cold dead hands" or "stop preaching at me you tofu munching vegan" type attitudes.

The current methods are certainly more profitable. Food economics drives things far more than sustainability or environmental impact. That's were the big change needs to happen. Farmers have to make a living too.

Here's an interesting Ted talk about how to use cattle in Africa to fight desertification:

https://www.ted.com/talks/allan_sav...eserts_and_reverse_climate_change?language=en

 

[Maedhros]

As long as you are fine with me eating dogs bred for food, your fine.

Is the taste good?

I really want to taste it someday.

The only thing that's important to know is if the meat they'll give is good (without any type of virus/bacteria)... the specific things, like how they treat it personally, if they give names to the cattle or whatever isn't really important.

 

[illusionspark]

I disagree that shifting over to a completely vegetarian system wont have equivalent or worse effects on the environment. I'd be very much in favour of a far less intensive, more lcoal farming system. We should be eating in season vegetables locally sourced etc. Having live stock as part of that system is entirely sustainable.

Pigs need to be fed more on feed produced by waste food that unsuitable for human consumption. Cattle should be grass fed where possible. The current farming methods have a long way to go. there is no one size fits all system for farming an food production. What would work here in Ireland may not work as well in the US or Africa.

You're right. Keeping livestock can be sustainable, but I think only on a small scale. We should have many more local farms that raise animals ethically that provide food for their communities. Also, the standard mono-cropping agricultural methods are harming the Earth as well. Everything needs to be as local as possible, and with plenty of biodiversity. There should not be miles and miles covered with the same crop. People should definitely look into regenerative agriculture and permaculture if they're curious about how humans can grow food while giving back to the Earth and causing the least amount of harm to our insect friends.

 

[Tomasoares]

I think vegetarians would get a much better result in general meat consumption rate if they focused on convincing people to reduce meat consumption instead of just trying to make them stop.

 

[Shaffield]

I disagree that shifting over to a completely vegetarian system wont have equivalent or worse effects on the environment. I'd be very much in favour of a far less intensive, more lcoal farming system. We should be eating in season vegetables locally sourced etc. Having live stock as part of that system is entirely sustainable.

Pigs need to be fed more on feed produced by waste food that unsuitable for human consumption. Cattle should be grass fed where possible. The current farming methods have a long way to go. there is no one size fits all system for farming an food production. What would work here in Ireland may not work as well in the US or Africa.

You're mostly right, but the issue is that the water usage could produce substantially more food if reallocated to plants. Obviously small scale livestock raising is not a problem. Unfortunately due to globalization and mass sprawl we cannot end factory farming, but a factory farm producing soy, wheat, etc. would feed many more people and with less waste.

It may not be economically practical for everyone, but it is totally possible to eat only locally sourced, sustainable food right now almost anywhere in the US. I get about 50% of my food from Farmers Markets.

I fully support local organic meat products, eggs, etc., I just don't eat them for dietary reasons.

 

[Vagabundo]

You're mostly right, but the issue is that the water usage could produce substantially more food if reallocated to plants. Obviously small scale livestock raising is not a problem. Unfortunately due to globalization and mass sprawl we cannot end factory farming, but a factory farm producing soy, wheat, etc. would feed many more people and with less waste.

It may not be economically practical for everyone, but it is totally possible to eat only locally sourced, sustainable food right now almost anywhere in the US. I get about 50% of my food from Farmers Markets.

I fully support local organic meat products, eggs, etc., I just don't eat them for dietary reasons.

Well here in Ireland we have buckets of water, its our management of the resource that's the big problem. Grazing animals can also make land unstable for crops productive - I'm thinking west of Ireland here.

I love farmers markets myself and all the home spun industries that grow up around them.

And while we may differ on some of the details, but I think we've both got a vision for a garden utopia - mine just involves an occasional beef burger with loads of salad and chips

 

[DarkHeartedKill]

What I don't get is when meat eaters (and I eat meat) get all moralist with which meat they eat. Like I can eat pig, but not dog or horse? Or cat? Why not?

Or human! Errrr...I mean yeah. I don't get that either. And I'm one of those people. I don't get all crazy like "omg why the hell are you eating God you evil ass!" While eating a steak. it's more just me not wanting to eat those animals and when I see people do so makes me sad. It's weird to feel that way I admit, don't know why I feel it though.

 

[Mimir]

Here's an interesting Ted talk about how to use cattle in Africa to fight desertification:

https://www.ted.com/talks/allan_sav...eserts_and_reverse_climate_change?language=en

It's bullshit that's been debunked repeatedly. Every time his methods have been attempted, they've failed. His previous idea for fighting desertification was to kill off all the elephants, which was another spectacular failure.

 

[Mr_Fern]

It is hard to be Vegetarian, more in countries like Mexico where theres ALWAYS meat in all the menus of restaurants and homes a like, it is damn hard, but I have been vegetarian for 6 years now, and I don't plan to go back, but I see why people return to meat, it's very easy and tempting.

I have tried to introduce vegetarian meals to my coworkers but with bad results, no one whats to leave meat... I gues triying to reduce is the way to go.

 

[Zelenogorsk]

I tried being vegetarian for a month. It wasn't too bad (also i work at a vegetarian restaurant and get the employee discount so that certainly made it easier) but it turns out I was just too much of a hedonist to stick with it. Meat is my vice and I just can't give it up.

 

[Samara]

It is hard to be Vegetarian, more in countries like Mexico where theres ALWAYS meat in all the menus of restaurants and homes a like, it is damn hard, but I have been vegetarian for 6 years now, and I don't plan to go back, but I see why people return to meat, it's very easy and tempting.

I have tried to introduce vegetarian meals to my coworkers but with bad results, no one whats to leave meat... I gues triying to reduce is the way to go.

I work in a daycare and we have for each day of the week a vegan, vegetarian, poultry or beef and fish dish.

I love it as it shows that you don't always need meat to eat. I love meat, but not as much as some people do. Its a great way to introduce food. Not to completely erase it, but to give other option.

I'll agree that some cultures that its harder to be vegetarian. As Carribeans, its easier to be mainly pesca or vegetarian and still having meat for special days.


I don't drink cows milk (not for other reason than the taste) and I always get ''you need calcium tho''
I still eat cheese and whatnot, but, ``the milk``

 

[Vagabundo]

It's bullshit that's been debunked repeatedly. Every time his methods have been attempted, they've failed. His previous idea for fighting desertification was to kill off all the elephants, which was another spectacular failure.

Ahh come on, its hardly debunked: http://www.theguardian.com/sustaina...ck-climate-change-george-monbiot-allan-savory

http://www.theguardian.com/sustaina...ck-climate-change-george-monbiot-allan-savory

Its certainly controversial and, for obvious reasons, vegans hate the hypothesis.

 

[Mimir]

Ahh come on, its hardly debunked: http://www.theguardian.com/sustaina...ck-climate-change-george-monbiot-allan-savory

http://www.theguardian.com/sustaina...ck-climate-change-george-monbiot-allan-savory

Its certainly controversial and, for obvious reasons, vegans hate the hypothesis.

It has 0 scientific backing, only psuedoscience hypothesis, and people with obvious conflict of interests backing it with no scientific evidence.

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijbd/2014/163431/

Studies supporting HM have generally come from the Savory Institute or anecdotal accounts of HM practitioners. Leading range scientists have refuted the system and indicated that its adoption by land management agencies is based on these anecdotes and unproven principles rather than scientific evidence. When addressing the application of HM or any other grazing systems, practitioners, including agencies managing public lands, private livestock operations, and scientists, should (1) consider inclusion of watershed-scale ungrazed reference areas of suitable size to encompass the plant and soil communities found in the grazed area, (2) define ecological (plant, soil, and animal community) and production (livestock) criteria on which to base quantitative comparisons, (3) use sufficient replication in studies, (4) and include adequate quality control of methods. Economic analysis of grazing systems should compare all expenditures with income, including externalized costs such as soil loss, water pollution, reduction of water infiltration, and carbon emissions and capture.

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2015...-significantly-influence-soil-carbon-storage/

Because of this time factor and the need to reduce CO2 levels now, the use of rangelands as a carbon sink—even if it were proven effective—is a poor strategy for a host of reasons. One cannot look at the soil carbon storage issue out of context. Livestock are among the greatest source of GHG emissions now—and reducing livestock numbers is the quickest and perhaps the most effective means of significantly altering GHG emissions.[xxxii] Furthermore, there are a host of collateral damages created by livestock production, from the destruction of soil biocrusts, killing of predators, water pollution, clearing of forests for pasture, and so on. One cannot look at the carbon-livestock-soil issue in isolation. Taken as a whole, the production of livestock has many significant ecological impacts, not the least of which is its contribution to global GHG emissions.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.ph...e-anthropocene-commentary-on-savory-ted-video

While it is understandable to want to believe that such a dramatic outcome is possible, science tells us that this claim is simply not reasonable. The massive, ongoing additions of carbon to the atmosphere from human activity far exceed the carbon storage capacity of global grasslands.

http://www.jstor.org/stable/25146745?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

This synthesis demonstrates that continued advocacy for rotational grazing as a superior system of grazing is founded on perception and anecdotal interpretations, rather than on the preponderance of experimental evidence. Rotational grazing as a means to increase vegetation and animal production has been subjected to as rigorous a testing regime as any hypothesis in the rangeland profession, and it has been found to convey few, if any, consistent benefits over continuous grazing. It is unlikely that researcher oversight or bias has contributed to this conclusion given the large number of grazing experiments, investigators, and geographic locations involved over a span of six decades.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Yay, link wars. To Google, everyone!

 

[Madness]

That's honestly a higher number than I expected.

Funny how vegetarians/vegans always get upset when people look at them with a skeptical eye when they proudly annouce their new meat free lifestyle. Proof positive the vast, vast majority of them are going to come back and our skepticism is warranted.

This is probably why parents should introduce vegetarianism as a concept to their children before they are set in their ways. If you've grown up on burgers, steaks, bacon, it's very hard to go cold turkey and eat only vegan/vegetarian diets.

But look at a country like India, more vegetarians than perhaps double the population of the US and they stick to their vegetarian diets from childhood to adulthood.

Also, it's just one study and anecdotally, I've seen some people go vegan and stick to it for well over ten years already. I don't know if I could do it. I just love meat too much, no matter how much I am for the environment or animal rights. I did cut out red meat for a while. Stuck to just turkey or chicken breasts etc.

 

[BlackGoku03]

I actually hadn't heard that one before, heh.



In a group of ~6 million people (USA vegetarians/vegans) you are bound to find people who may only be proactive about animal rights/liberation, and others who are involved in a myriad of ethical causes. I think it is rational to claim that our treatment of "food" animals is one of the most horrendous things about the human race right now. We all agree that something like child poverty, domestic abuse, etc. is horrible, but those are things that most of us don't directly contribute to. Many of us however give money multiple times a day in direct support of cruelty in the name of convenience. As a moral issue it is more related to ending slavery than ending disease.

The easy reply to your point that you do give is why don't you give more? Any dollar outside of shelter/food/transportation could be given to someone more in need. It's an endless rabbit hole unless you plan to give your life to running a Salvation Army center or something. We all eventually compromise moral consistency for convenience, and giving up unnecessary foods isn't really inconvenient for the modern world.

But you don't donate all your extra income. Why is entertaining yourself with video games more important than feeding hungry children?

But I'm not in an activist group. I'm not an activist. I don't know if that's really a good analogy.

I'm talking about vegan/vegetarian groups who all focus on animals that we eat and nothing else. I mean, in the grand scope of things, shouldn't we take care of people first? I just think the passionate energy and millions of dollars donated to Vegan groups could go to actually feeding people.

That's all I'm saying. I know these groups were created for one purpose, but I just think maybe there are larger issues in the world and in the US than the mistreatment of animals that are farmed. You wouldn't think that talking to some passionate people about it (who can sometimes be very difficult to talk to).

 

[Mjöölnir]

But I'm not in an activist group. I'm not an activist. I don't know if that's really a good analogy.

I'm talking about vegan/vegetarian groups who all focus on animals that we eat and nothing else. I mean, in the grand scope of things, shouldn't we take care of people first? I just think the passionate energy and millions of dollars donated to Vegan groups could go to actually feeding people.

That's all I'm saying. I know these groups were created for one purpose, but I just think maybe there are larger issues in the world and in the US than the mistreatment of animals that are farmed. You wouldn't think that talking to some passionate people about it (who can sometimes be very difficult to talk to).

I agree that there is merit to a utilitarian approach to life choices but in the long run we aren't perfect ethical machines. We could always ask the philanthropist who works 10 hours a day feeding the poor to work 11 hours but in reality it's always better to do something to improve the world rather then doing nothing.

// Not vegan (I think there's a glue in my sneakers with ingredients originating from animals... And I love tuna on toast)

 

[BlackGoku03]

I agree that there is merit to a utilitarian approach to life choices but in the long run we aren't perfect ethical machines. We could always ask the philanthropist who works 10 hours a day feeding the poor to work 11 hours but in reality it's always better to do something to improve the world rather then doing nothing.

// Not vegan (I think there's a glue in my sneakers with ingredients originating from animals... And I love tuna on toast)

Oh, I get it. Really. It's just been a lingering thought for a while now.