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“I think we are becoming out of touch with modern gaming, Gaf.” - Principal Skinner's Enthusiast Boomers

Mercuryvoid

Neo Member
So, we want games that push the technical boundaries of graphic capabilities of the console, being develop in a neck breaking speed and no delay, while keeping the price as low as possible, and still keeping ethical work environment for the developer all around.

Can I put a real dragon and world peace also to that checklist?
 

Dr. Claus

Vincit qui se vincit
So, we want games that push the technical boundaries of graphic capabilities of the console, being develop in a neck breaking speed and no delay, while keeping the price as low as possible, and still keeping ethical work environment for the developer all around.

Can I put a real dragon and world peace also to that checklist?

What is with these random accounts being around for 12-15 years suddenly coming out of the woodworks to defend Sony, all with super low post counts.

Almost as if a bunch of warriors are coming back to defend little ol' Sony.
 

Dane

Member
My opinion is there was nothing necessarily wrong with the game selection of the showcase. One or two more single player Sony games with GAMEPLAY would have been perfect

And their GAAS games should have been GAMEPLAY. We were already skeptical of this direction and then they drop CG trailers on our heads?

The casual gamer can barely tell the difference, but we know CG trailers are completely irrelevent to the point they may as well not even show them. And you could argue they are outright deceptive

Casuals all over my TikTok feed loved the showcase, but we know a bit better that if you come with a showcase like that you deserve criticism. They literally think everything shown was an exclusive and Spiderman 2 just won the generation, so that's what you are dealing with on the casual side

Maybe our Xbox friends not demanding better after years of being pumped with CG trailers and then gobbling it up has made companies feel it's a legitimate strategy
Or maybe you're finally realizing that game development is taking a whole generation for a project, but it took this major hype crash to realize that? Have you ever wondered that Sony is afraid of showing stuff that could be 3-4 years away when Microsoft got flak for that?

Instead of blaming people because they didn't choose your console of choice, maybe its time to reflect on what's going on the whole stage? Maybe its time to question why discussions have turned into "multiplatform trash, exclusive good" when for example a lot of Sony and Microsoft success were carried on that, I remember that before Uncharted 2, Sony exclusives weren't regarded as otherwordly but on par with the best of the third party, there's a decline in multilpatform quality but instead of discussing what should be done to fix that, it all ends into mopping exclusives against each other and multiplatform and believing they're enough for the system, not even Nintendo could survive that with the WiiU.
 

Dr. Claus

Vincit qui se vincit
Or maybe you're finally realizing that game development is taking a whole generation for a project, but it took this major hype crash to realize that? Have you ever wondered that Sony is afraid of showing stuff that could be 3-4 years away when Microsoft got flak for that?

Instead of blaming people because they didn't choose your console of choice, maybe its time to reflect on what's going on the whole stage? Maybe its time to question why discussions have turned into "multiplatform trash, exclusive good" when for example a lot of Sony and Microsoft success were carried on that, I remember that before Uncharted 2, Sony exclusives weren't regarded as otherwordly but on par with the best of the third party, there's a decline in multilpatform quality but instead of discussing what should be done to fix that, it all ends into mopping exclusives against each other and multiplatform and believing they're enough for the system, not even Nintendo could survive that with the WiiU.

Again, what is the excuse then of Sony showing off 4 CGI Trailers for GAAS Games? Stop using "Sony is afraid of showing off stuff that could be years away" when they *literally* just did that. 4 times. In a single event.
 

Mercuryvoid

Neo Member
What is with these random accounts being around for 12-15 years suddenly coming out of the woodworks to defend Sony, all with super low post counts.

Almost as if a bunch of warriors are coming back to defend little ol' Sony.
I personally don't feel the need to defend Sony, they have people with exorbitant salary for that. My statement also not just for this particular thread which I assume because of the reaction to Sony showcase, but to overall outlook from enthusiast forum such as GAF, toward the game development aspect of the industry.

To put it in a simple way, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You want great game, with awesome graphic and superb gameplay, then prepare to have "sacrifice" on other aspect.
 

diffusionx

Gold Member
Am I out of touch with modern gaming?
oWtB3W2.png
 

Dane

Member
Again, what is the excuse then of Sony showing off 4 CGI Trailers for GAAS Games? Stop using "Sony is afraid of showing off stuff that could be years away" when they *literally* just did that. 4 times. In a single event.
We don't know exactly if they are really far or not, games like these tend to come out in a year or two at worse, Hyenas that has almost the same trailer advert art as FairGames was revealed only with CGI but had a closed test hapenning at the same time where some gameplay got leaked.
 

Dr. Claus

Vincit qui se vincit
I personally don't feel the need to defend Sony, they have people with exorbitant salary for that. My statement also not just for this particular thread which I assume because of the reaction to Sony showcase, but to overall outlook from enthusiast forum such as GAF, toward the game development aspect of the industry.

To put it in a simple way, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You want great game, with awesome graphic and superb gameplay, then prepare to have "sacrifice" on other aspect.

Fair enough, and I would agree with that.

However, we haven't been getting great games with amazing graphics and superb gameplay. We have been getting average to subpar games with generic gameplay, bloated design, and an over emphasis on graphical fidelity and animations to the point of detriment.

This is why I have been championing against the push of top end graphical fidelity for games and a focus on the core gameplay, pacing, and narrative. Sadly with games like Spider-Man 2 where it looks like a glorified DLC and a supposed "Generation" ahead of its predecessor, we should see improved graphical fidelity at the very least as, from what they have shown, they haven't put much effort into improving the gameplay or narrative.

As you suggested, there is a balance. Spider-Man 2 fails to hit that balance on all sides. Maybe there is a lot of stuff they haven't shown - but just like with ToTK - people have every right to be critical of what we are shown.

We don't know exactly if they are really far or not, games like these tend to come out in a year or two at worse, Hyenas that has almost the same trailer advert art as FairGames was revealed only with CGI but had a closed test hapenning at the same time where some gameplay got leaked.
If there is gameplay, they should show gameplay. Regardless, they showed us a bunch of nothing. If they had the time and effort to do that for these GAAS games, they could have made teasers for their big first party SP titles on the way. They did it with SpiderMan, Wolverine, and others in the very recent past. There is no excuse.
 

SNG32

Member
Honestly ever since I switched to PC I could care less about what modern gaming is. I can relive the classics of my child and play oldies that I’ve missed and at the same time if there is a modern game I like try it on PC. Best of both worlds.
 

Mercuryvoid

Neo Member
Fair enough, and I would agree with that.

However, we haven't been getting great games with amazing graphics and superb gameplay. We have been getting average to subpar games with generic gameplay, bloated design, and an over emphasis on graphical fidelity and animations to the point of detriment.

This is why I have been championing against the push of top end graphical fidelity for games and a focus on the core gameplay, pacing, and narrative. Sadly with games like Spider-Man 2 where it looks like a glorified DLC and a supposed "Generation" ahead of its predecessor, we should see improved graphical fidelity at the very least as, from what they have shown, they haven't put much effort into improving the gameplay or narrative.

As you suggested, there is a balance. Spider-Man 2 fails to hit that balance on all sides. Maybe there is a lot of stuff they haven't shown - but just like with ToTK - people have every right to be critical of what we are shown.


If there is gameplay, they should show gameplay. Regardless, they showed us a bunch of nothing. If they had the time and effort to do that for these GAAS games, they could have made teasers for their big first party SP titles on the way. They did it with SpiderMan, Wolverine, and others in the very recent past. There is no excuse.
As a player, understandably, top end graphic is a coveted goal for games (and their developer, too, I guess). I, too, hope that Insomniac still developing the game further down the road up to the launch.
 

Jaybe

Member
Fair enough, and I would agree with that.

However, we haven't been getting great games with amazing graphics and superb gameplay. We have been getting average to subpar games with generic gameplay, bloated design, and an over emphasis on graphical fidelity and animations to the point of detriment.

This is why I have been championing against the push of top end graphical fidelity for games and a focus on the core gameplay, pacing, and narrative. Sadly with games like Spider-Man 2 where it looks like a glorified DLC and a supposed "Generation" ahead of its predecessor, we should see improved graphical fidelity at the very least as, from what they have shown, they haven't put much effort into improving the gameplay or narrative.

As you suggested, there is a balance. Spider-Man 2 fails to hit that balance on all sides. Maybe there is a lot of stuff they haven't shown - but just like with ToTK - people have every right to be critical of what we are shown.

Did you see this video? Kind of aligns to what you’re saying.

 
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Unknown?

Member
Did OP really expect downvote bombings? Since the downvote count has been hidden I don't think people give enough of a fuck to vote at all. The only semi-useful metric is view counts.

Besides, while many of the games shown could be seen as underwhelming, it wasn't outrageous either.
It still happens. That Haven game got ratioed.
 
Every generation that has ever existed thinks the art, music, movies, and now games created during their generation were the peak of form. Like, to some extent I agree with what you’re saying but it’s because I also have the confirmation bias that comes with having grown up with every console from the 80s to today. At some point people with our viewpoints will be the niche audience and we will just be the old man yelling at the cloud.
Nah, I knew someone would say this shit. In the gaming space its unique.

Our parents played basic, sprite based games. they werent playing half life 2. The progression is SUPPOSED to be:

-games get more complex
-we yearn for the simplicity of old

Thats not the fucking case today now is it?
You have older gamers knowing rpgs that were more complex and had more systems, combat games that had intricate combo strings and inputs.

We should be at a point where FEAR isnt even discussed in terms of A.I. and we exceeded that 10 fold. We shiuld be at a point where half life 2 and the gravity gun was this funny little thing compared to what half life 4 did.

Etc etc, point is, things arent getting more advanced. Younger gamers are actually playing dumbed down shit alot of the time now. We praise games in 2022 where the mouths dont move.

We went backwards.
 

TwiztidElf

Member
I'm a card carrying old fart, and I was not disappointed by the PS showcase yesterday at all.
The highlight for me was Phantom Blade Zero, but there was plenty of other stuff there I've put on my watchlist.
As someone that enjoys Splatoon, I'm looking forward to Foamstars. Bonus points that for whatever reason, I expect the fact that I'm playing a game called Foamstars will annoy my wife.
Immortals of Aveum, Ghostrunner2, Sword of the Sea, Plucky Squire, Granblu, Ultros all look interesting.

Chuck on top that Nintendo are absolutely killing it at the moment (particularly Zelda and Advance Wars). SF6 next week. I'm a super happy old gamer right now.
 
Also it's worth mentioning that millennials now make up more of the gaming demographic than Gen Z and teens. Yes it might seem like we are crusty old men out of touch with the new fangled games aimed at the youngsters, but the crusty old men should be the target audience if we're devoting the most time (and importantly money) to the hobby.
I think the tragic truth is that the crusty old men ARE the ones liking these events. The millenials are PEAK consoomers and are the whales who encourage the microtransaction bullshit.
I've seen a lot of men in their 30s who play Fortnite, Call of Duty, FIFA, Madden, etc.
Games like Fairgame$ are very much products of the progressive millenial consoomer mindset and they don't catch on because Gen Z doesn't care for it.
 

64bitmodels

Reverse groomer.
Pretty sure Danjin was stating that this game isn't just a "Cutsey Indie" game, but a full well designed game with unique elements.
well yeah. The art style is still pretty cutesy. It's easy to see how someone can see it as cutesy, and i was saying if that's all it takes for you to get thrown off a game you need to grow TF up. because like... There's a company who's been around for 40+ years making some of the most high quality games, and they're also very 'cutesy'
 

BossLackey

Gold Member
Has been the case for a long time. Gen Z has abysmal taste. They don't know any better.

When gaming was top tier, we were their age now. But the generation before us had no fucking clue about gaming.

I know people are going to make fun of this quote, but...it's fucking true.

All my nieces and nephews have complete shit taste in games to a baffling degree.

I recently donated several hundred dollars in spare PC parts I had that I was planning on making a media server with to my co-workers son because I had heard he wanted to build a gaming PC and figured he needed those parts much more than me. He was elated and got to build his PC.
Come to find out recently, he's using it to play iPad games in VR. That was the whole reason he wanted it...
 
xbox cant even make a dashboard.
sony has basically no new IPs.

we know what games should be.
lived through the creation of all the greats.

this stupid crap and fine and fun if you're younger...
25947_fortnite-floss.gif

...but if the whole industry is emulating this, its bankrupting itself longterm.
 

ByWatterson

Member
The fact of the matter is that for all we thought would be there and wasn't, the show had a lot of games that are exciting or looked like bangers.
 

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
As I keep saying, the games they showed are actually pretty good, will make a dent, and be talked about for years -- except for a few too many CGI trailers for my liking.

People are disappointed in the show because they expected certain first-party games and studios to show up. And that includes me.
 

bender

What time is it?
Did you see this video? Kind of aligns to what you’re saying.



I was going to make a thread about this and it is why Yahtzee is the only video game critic I listen to these days. His Extra Punctuations are on point far more often than they are not.
 

BossLackey

Gold Member
what do they play? I’m genuinely curious. My genz little cousin just started college and he’s all Fortnite, Minecraft, sports games.
Very similar. Fortnite, Minecraft, and a ton of baaaaaad mobile games.
 
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draliko

Member
Games are surely coming, but the typical hardcore gaf user is really out of touch with reality, we're just a small subset of gamers and we're not the market... And we're snobs... Oh god if we're snobs😅😂
 

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
Games are surely coming, but the typical hardcore gaf user is really out of touch with reality, we're just a small subset of gamers and we're not the market... And we're snobs... Oh god if we're snobs😅😂
Unfortunate, but true.

The revenue split for games explains it all.
 

draliko

Member
Unfortunate, but true.

The revenue split for games explains it all.
My sons (8 and 4) love playing Fortnite and Spiderman, and I was really surprised to see how much Fortnite is easy to play for a kid. A kid doesn't want a strong story or good gunplay, he just want a small, easy, addictive, nice looking (for him) gameplay loop, and Fortnite is the de facto standard in that (having player made content for them is like the old 1000 games in 1 cartridges), kudos to epic for that, they did really deliver, I can totally see why this game prints money.
And even if it feels strange, we were the same, but we did that on arcades... We didn't care about the story,we just puts quarter after quarter to beat the gameplay loop.
Now we've grown, one day they will too.
Flipper users didn't get why we were playing arcades, now we are the old guys in the arcade room.
 
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Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
My sons (8 and 4) love playing Fortnite and Spiderman, and I was really surprised to see how much Fortnite is easy to play for a kid. A kid doesn't want a strong story or good gunplay, he just want a small, easy, addictive, nice looking (for him) gameplay loop, and Fortnite is the de facto standard in that (having player made content for them is like the old 1000 games in 1 cartridges), kudos to epic for that, they did really deliver, I can totally see why this game prints money.
And even if it feels strange, we were the same, but we did that on arcades... We didn't care about the story,we just puts quarter after quarter to beat the gameplay loop.
Now we've grown, one day they will too.
Flipper users didn't get why we were playing arcades, now we are the old guys in the arcade room.
True. It feels odd to us because it's different. From them, it's perfect.

I wonder if these kids, when they grow up, would talk about Fortnite as we do about Golden Axe, Sonic, Mario, Contra, and Castlevania 😄

Football That Hurts GIF by Apple TV+
 

ParaSeoul

Member
A kid doesn't want a strong story or good gunplay, he just want a small, easy, addictive, nice looking (for him) gameplay loop
It's like you forgot multi-player shooters have existed for 20 plus years at this point. Fortnite is the closest thing today to those old arena shooters,which makes sense since the battle royale portion was made by the same team who were going to make the next Unreal tournament.
 

draliko

Member
It's like you forgot multi-player shooters have existed for 20 plus years at this point. Fortnite is the closest thing today to those old arena shooters,which makes sense since the battle royale portion was made by the same team who were going to make the next Unreal tournament.
I didn't forgot, in fact I said we did the same at the arcades or early pc/console gaming, we cared about the gameplay mainly, as we grow older other aspects become prominent, I think it's the same as always and will always be like this, kids like something, adults don't understand it, it's the circle of life... And btw forums aren't used by kids anymore so this is an echo chamber, it's our generation that was raised on boards,mirc and mailing lists, now they discuss stuff on other places, this is one of the main reason gaf is out of touch, same as the other forum we're made up of a small homogeneous minority of people that share a mindset
 
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buenoblue

Member
This is exactly right. When I was 18 I was buying a game a week. Going to the movies weekly. Now at 47 I buy probably 2 games a year and maybe 4 on sale. I go to the movies probably once a year. Yesterday I spent £500 on garden furniture and stuff for the garden 🤷‍♂️ I am no longer the target audience anymore.
 

ParaSeoul

Member
And btw forums aren't used by kids anymore so this is an echo chamber, it's our generation that was raised on boards,mirc and mailing lists, now they discuss stuff on other places, this is one of the main reason gaf is out of touch, same as the other forum we're made up of a small homogeneous minority of people that share a mindset
Yeah I'm aware. I'm not one of you by the way. Probably the only young person on this site,it's like visiting the retirement home.
 
Being concerned is reasonable. There's definitely a possibility that the GaaS they've announced would flop hard, but there's no absolute way to tell. What's certain is, this slight shift towards multiplayer live service games is no secret, Jimbo made it clear that they would also explore other avenues like GaaS & mobile games.

But I think we're become too concerned, especially since there's no big reason to, Single player story driven games are here to stay, Jimbo and Hulst made that clear that the types of games that gave PlayStation it's appeal and popularity aren't going anywhere, and I do wholeheartedly believe that they're keeping some of them under wraps for later. Sony did make secondary showcases before after all.

That being said, PlayStation's over-reliance on CGI trailers are making them look like Xbox, who've relied too much on CG trailers in the past. Surely Fairgame & Concord, which have been in Dev for 3 years now should've had at least a 1 or 2 minute gameplay demo right, right? Well, we'll see where things go from here. 25+ games in dev exclusively on PlayStation and at least 10 are live service (at least after subtracting the cancelled Deviation games IP).
 
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CGNoire

Member
Nah, you're right. We are dinosaurs. The industry has left us behind. We made PS4 a success last gen and now that they know fortnite, warzone and other trash will make them billions, they dont need us anymore. Why spend $100 million on single player games when cheap trash from gaas studios will do.

Time to leave this hobby behind and do something else. I am clearly no longer their target audience.
Its time for us to become game designers ourselves.
 

Go_Ly_Dow

Member
2007
  1. Uncharted
  2. Motorstorm
  3. Ratchet FTOD
  4. Heavenly Sword
  5. Warhawk

2008
  1. MGS4
  2. Socom
  3. Resistance 2
  4. Motorstorm PR
  5. LBP

2009
  1. KZ2
  2. Uncharted 2
  3. Infamous
  4. Ratchet
  5. Demon Souls

2010
  1. GOW3
  2. Heavy Rain
  3. MAG
  4. GT5

2011
  1. KZ3
  2. LBP2
  3. Uncharted 3
  4. Resistance 3
  5. Infamous 2

2012
  1. Starhawk
  2. Twisted Metal
  3. Journey
  4. Ratchet

2013
  1. GOW Ascension
  2. TLOU
  3. GT6
  4. Beyond
  5. KZSF

2014
  1. Infamous
  2. DriveClub
  3. Littlebigplanet 3

2015
  1. Order
  2. Bloodborne
  3. Until Dawn

2016
  1. Uncharted 4
  2. Ratchet reboot
  3. The Last Guardian

2017
  1. Horizon
  2. Uncharted lost legacy
  3. GT Sports

2018
  1. GOW
  2. Detroit
  3. Spiderman
  4. SOTC remake

2019
  1. Days Gone
  2. Death Stranding
  3. Dreams

2020
  1. TLOU2
  2. Ghost of Tsushima
  3. Demon Souls Remake
  4. Astrobot
  5. spiderman Miles
2021
  1. Ratchet
  2. Returnal

2022
  1. Horizon
  2. GOW
  3. GT7
  4. TLOU remake

2023
  1. Spiderman 2
They went from shipping 4-5 games a year to 3-4 games a year last gen down to 1-2 games this gen. Numbers dont lie.

And why are they shipping less games? Because so many losers complain if the games don't have the prettiest graphics.

High fidelity, higher budget games = less output for most developers.
 

SeraphJan

Member
And why are they shipping less games? Because so many losers complain if the games don't have the prettiest graphics.

High fidelity, higher budget games = less output for most developers.
I think PS4 era graphic is already more than enough, personally I'm neither "graphic doesn't matter" camp nor "every game need to be Matrix demo" camp. The graphic just needed to be around or above average compare to other triple A title, unfortunately, most people likes to go extreme on both direction
 
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EDMIX

Member
Who is everyone? I use YT daily, and never heard about it and i bet many millions neither.
Edit: 'using a combination of scraped dislike stats and estimates extrapolated from extension user data'. Yeah, no thx that doesn't sound like valid data with very few % using it.

Agreed. Never forget when folks literally tried to use "downvotes" on Youtube to tell us a Call Of Duty game would flop.

Poooooor Activision is still struggling with that 20 million seller, dark days /s lol I just can't tell what will move massive units or not based on some views on Youtube.
Its always been this way to be honest. You just have to look at how many on here scratch their heads when they see the kind of games that are being played the most, or how puzzled they get when a Indie game or AA game catches the masses imagination (but teh AAA graphics dudez!!!???), etc.

Yea, after seeing so many games break all sorts of records that are some online, multiplayer type thing, I don't shit anymore.

Maybe a game can be trash.....maybe that shit is about to do 100 million downloads or 600 million downloads...thats how wild this shit can get. I think a lot of us love amazing AAA looking games, but when you look in the past, the games that did those monster units, become pop-culture phenomena didn't even look "AAA", Fortnite, Minecraft, Pub-G, Splatoon etc, I'd argue we have more examples that show some of the biggest games that can come out of no where, are unlikely to look like some amazing graphically intense looking game.
 

PeteBull

Member
Dont worry about what the hype/marketing tries to push, bro, all those younglings dont have much of disposable income, us veteran gamers arent used to f2p gaas shit but we love to spend 70$ on quality products.

Which will result in 99% gaas trash games bombing hard(u have few exceptions like fortnite, warzone, destiny 2 but its not even 1%), and all high quality games selling well, coz we- veteran players got will and income to buy them, often at launch, not at 70% discounts :)
 

Mercuryvoid

Neo Member
I think PS4 era graphic is already more than enough, personally I'm neither "graphic doesn't matter" camp nor "every game need to be Matrix demo" camp. The graphic just needed to be around or above average compare to other triple A title, unfortunately, most people likes to go extreme on both direction
I'm in the same camp. For the Spiderman 2 case, IMO, the graphic is fine, maybe youtube compression play a bigger part in roughing it down, but in the end, if the end product improves the graphic a bit, but with smoother framerate, better animation and enemy variation, more fun gameplay (the most important part aside graphic) and great content-wise, that is better than just pushing for the graphic to the UE5 or Matrix demo level, and making sacrifice on framerate or other aspect of the game.

Again, for simplicity, put it this way, I don't want Crysis, I want Call of Duty 2.
 

EDMIX

Member
I'm in the same camp. For the Spiderman 2 case, IMO, the graphic is fine, maybe youtube compression play a bigger part in roughing it down, but in the end, if the end product improves the graphic a bit, but with smoother framerate, better animation and enemy variation, more fun gameplay (the most important part aside graphic) and great content-wise, that is better than just pushing for the graphic to the UE5 or Matrix demo level, and making sacrifice on framerate or other aspect of the game.

Again, for simplicity, put it this way, I don't want Crysis, I want Call of Duty 2.

Agreed.

I'd rather have something completely polished, functional and running smooth. I trust Insomniac knows what they are doing.

Easiest fucking day 1 all year imho
 
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