you should know, i just did a spit-take to this post...
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Nintendo were often quite envious of us, says former Rare staffer
- Thread starter TunaLover
- Start date
That1BlackGuy
Member
Eh, I don't think envious would be the right word to use especially with the example that he gave. Miyamoto saw how good their game looked and wanted to get Zelda up to snuff, I wouldn't say something like that is particularly done out of envy.
Gormless Noodle
Member
I rather think they would have never forced them to instead of simply not allowing it. Nintendo does a lot of weird/stupid stuff, but one thing they do know best and that's how to make good games. Miyamoto's philosophy in that sense seems the same as Nintendo overall "A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is bad forever."
Rare enjoyed a luxury with Nintendo they probably weren't aware of at the time and not having that and being forced by MS in the way that they were, ruined them. Though it would have been the same deal had they worked for a 3rd party.
Metallix87
Member
Yeah, I'm sure many ex-Rare people miss the Nintendo days.
Mario 64, Zelda OOT, Zelda MM, Mario Kart 64, Super Smash Bros, Paper Mario. Only game that came close was Goldeneye.
Yeah they were ahead of their time for that crappy hardware. I mean we just recently started getting kart racers with water and air vehicles.
Your OoT images couldn't possibly be picked any poorer.
Having said that, Rare made some beautiful games. But OoT/MM beautiful? No.
PaulExcellent
Member
Most Rare games are overrated as hell.
Except Jet Force Gemini.
That game is pure yes.
Except Jet Force Gemini.
That game is pure yes.
I've only got as far as the Deku tree in my OOT save lol.
But yeah, the framerate on Banjo Kazooie shits all over OOT and MM. MM is like a slideshow in some areas.
Banjo Tooie is where the framerate suffers.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
I can believe it. Nintendo fostered internal competitiveness in their own R&D departments, so it's only natural that someone like Miyamoto would feel embarrassed that a Western 2nd party was making better use of the hardware. There's no question that Rare's games make better use of texture space. Likewise on the first page someone mentioned that Miyamoto reacted poorly to DKC on SNES, which I can also see being true. As important as Miyamoto is to Nintendo, once he became their flagship designer it was as if all the others were forced into the backseat. For all we know, he spearheaded the campaign to make Dinosaur Planet into Starfox because he didn't want them to have a breakout original hit of their own. And no, I'm not joking.
Rare made use of custom microcode very very well, including commands that no one apart from Nintendo was supposed to know about - essentially ignoring the code samples Nintendo offered in dev kits and starting from scratch.
They also were one of the first to spread textures over multiple files, as Banjo Kazooie shows quite well.
And Conker had goddamn MP3 audio.
Riposte
Member
There are some topics you should not bother with.
At least get to the Forest Temple, man. Then we can get a fair comparison going.
Metallix87
Member
What do you mean?
I thought Retro requested to work on another DKC game because they still had a lot of ideas from making DKCR?
What? Rare's art has never been its strong spot. During certain pockets of time they have have been technically quite good for the time(DKC), but I've always felt their art direction has been horrendous. Gaudy and ugly permeate their games. I can't think of a single game of theirs that isn't hideous. I NEVER understood the Goldeneye craze. Even back then I thought it was an eyesore.
Disclaimer: I know some of you probably think Rare's games look awesome. I have no agenda. That's just how I strongly feel.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
Banjo Kazooie's textures would have blown Miyamoto's mind coming from Super Mario 64. Both technically and artistically. SM64 looks like Nintendo's first stab at textures. Banjo Kazooie looks like they had been doing it for years. I'm not even a Rare fan, in fact I despise most of their games, but even I can understand that.
I'm thinking a lot in terms of things I can't get passed -- Character design and color selection, both of which Rare has always been terrible at. They simple can't seem to make good looking characters.
And just -- In general, art direction in Rare games is very poor. I stand by that. Nintendo, by contrast, has a strong sense of art design in it games, consistently through the ages.
Well yes, there were delays, but look at their output during the N64 era:
Donkey Kong Country 3 (right at the end of the SNES era, 1996)
Killer Instinct Gold (1996)
Blast Corps (1997)
Goldeneye 007 (1997)
Donkey Kong Land III (1997)
Diddy Kong Racing (1997)
Banjo Kazooie (1998)
Conker's Pocket Tales (1998)
Jet Force Gemeni (1999)
Donkey Kong 64 (1999)
Mickey's Racing Adventure (1999)
Perfect Dark (2000)
Perfect Dark GBC (2000)
Donkey Kong Country GBC (2000)
Mickey's Speedway USA (2000)
Banjo Tooie (2000)
Conker's Bad Fur Day (2001)
Mickey's Speedway USA GBC (2001)
Star Fox Adventures (2002)
That's 11 N64 games in 6 years, 12 if you count Star Fox Adventures (which was Adventure Planet on N64 for the longest time before making the jump to Gamecube). Not to mention all the stuff they were doing for the portables, and holding it down on the SNES while Nintendo moved their focus entirely on the N64 in 1996.
I think Nintendo would kill to have that kind of output from a second party today.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
Of course, I agree. But the texture work in Banjo is lightyears ahead of SM64.
I also remember reading an interview in GameFan with the guys at Naughty Dog, and they claimed that Miyamoto had asked them how they did the water effect in Crash Bandicoot's river levels at an E3 upon seeing it, he was that impressed by it.
because Nintendo upped their game to match, the gamers were the winners thanks to Rare!
Silver_DNA
Member
Nintendo, Rare, and Factor 5 made some damn fine games. It's a shame only one of them survived.
Sometimes I think that it'd be great if Nintendo started up more first party studios outside of Japan and scooped up the talented people that lost their jobs in the past few years. That would diversify their talent base and cultural impact. That'll probably never happen though.
It's a shame that Jet Force Gemini and Perfect Dark will be lost to the annals of games, but they were fun while we had them. Even if I could never beat the last boss in JFG...
Sometimes I think that it'd be great if Nintendo started up more first party studios outside of Japan and scooped up the talented people that lost their jobs in the past few years. That would diversify their talent base and cultural impact. That'll probably never happen though.
It's a shame that Jet Force Gemini and Perfect Dark will be lost to the annals of games, but they were fun while we had them. Even if I could never beat the last boss in JFG...
Uncle Rupee
Banned
Haha, yeah, it's almost as if the furry bee in Super Mario Galaxy and the fur seen in Donkey Kong Jungle Beat uses the same technique as the fur Rare developed for StarFox Adventures! oh wait...
Look, I'm not saying Rare's designs are good. Jet Force Gemini and many other examples prove just how terrible the art direction can be. But there's no doubt that in some areas, particularly during the time period referenced by the Rare employee, that Rare was doing things like texture blending which gave their games a more aesthetically pleasing look.
MilesWebber
Member
This post is hilarious to me.
i loved jet force gemini, such a great game.....even if the main characters were a bit lame.
SethADrekin
Banned
Sounds like someone misses their Daddy.
If Rare was ever superior to Nintendo, they wouldn't be the piece of crap they are today. Hacks will say anything to not look like hacks.
If Rare was ever superior to Nintendo, they wouldn't be the piece of crap they are today. Hacks will say anything to not look like hacks.
I don't believe this statement. although Nintendo may have not given them the code/engine they certainly helped them with development. If you look at banjo its very similar to Mario 64, same with Diddy Kong racing and dk64. After Nintendo sold of their stake in the company rare has not been able to bring out the same quality of games.
When Nintendo let go of their (rares) hand, rare died.
When Nintendo let go of their (rares) hand, rare died.
QueenOfThorns
Member
Yeah, and that's what I loved about them. Like, people judge the Banjo games as strictly platformers, when they're more about exploration and adventure than that. It's more of a subgenre than a straight up platformer like Mario Galaxy and the like. That's what I loved about them and it makes me sad that there aren't really any more games like that being made right now. Mario Galaxy is fine and all, and for people who just like completing the levels by platforming and reaching the goal will love them, but I prefer exploring levels and finding secrets more than reaching the end.
It's possible to go way too far in that direction, as DK64 proved, but the Banjo games still hold up really well if you're not going in expecting a 2D platforming game in 3D. They're something different and that's what I liked about them.
Version 3.0
Member
You'll notice I wasn't speaking of sales, but mindshare.
Oh, give me a break. Now you're just being deliberately obtuse. TP was announced when the Gamecube was barely alive, and released after its death.
You don't get tired of being wrong, do you?
Hm. I'll use the debug master quest and wallhack my way into there
I also think it's worth mentioning that BK, Conker, JFG, Perfect Dark, I think Blast Corps...these were all brand new IPs. Rare were creating characters and universes from scratch. Their creativity was unmatched in the N64 era. And look at the diversity of genres. Their output x creativity x quality...how could Nintendo not be envious at the time.
Agreed. I actually disliked DK64, but I didn't give BK or BT much of a shot. They seem fun.
Their shooters were the best on the platform for sure, but the best GAMES on the platform were Nintendo's. Easily.
HolyBaikal
Banned
That sounds... a little bit arrogant.
Rare's early games were very good, though. I especially like the Donkey Kong Country games. More so than their Nintendo 64 games. Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest was one of my most favourite Super Nintendo games of all time. And that's a lot, considering that the Super Nintendo is my favourite video game console of all time. And home to almost all of my favourite video games.
Dixie Kong was a super cool character. I would almost always play as her. And I loved how she would play guitar when finishing a level. Her style as a character was really great, she reminded me a bit of Cammy from Street Fighter with her pink beret and blonde ponytail. And I wanted to get into heavy metal as a kid, so she really embodied a cool character for me.
And even though she was a secondary character in Donkey Kong Country 2, I feel that she shown best there. Donkey Kong Country was a good game, but Donkey Kong Country 2 was a marked improvement on that. While I liked that Donkey Kong Country 3 was starring Dixie Kong, my favourite Donkey Kong character. The secondary character wasn't very interesting, and the gameplay wasn't as well paced as Donkey Kong Country 2 and I feel that it simply couldn't live up to Donkey Kong Country 2.
Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest, really is one of the best platformers of all time. And not just the best Donkey Kong Country game ever created, but the best Donkey Kong game every created. It's up there with Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island. Which is also possibly the best platforming game ever created. Or at the very least another of the very best 2D platformers ever created.
I wouldn't say that they were better than Nintendo. But they did a very good job of making games as a studio under Nintendo. I would rate Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest and and Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island, and possibly the two greatest platformers of all time.
Rare games were good during the 32-bit or 64-bit era. Though I felt that games like Conker's Bad Fur day were extremely childish and gross. I understand that the game may be well designed, but the entire game is gross, cruel, and sadistic, and it grosses me out and I stay away from it. I also feel like Banjo-Kazooie isn't as good of a game as Super Mario 64.
David Wise is also a majorly talented composer that needs to work on more games. If I were rich and had the money to hire people to help me make a game, I'd like to hire David Wise as a composer.
Rare were also one of the best developers I know of. In the 16-Bit era, they really understood what made Nintendo games special, and were able to make games just as good. It really makes me wish that Rare and stayed with Nintendo.
Rare's early games were very good, though. I especially like the Donkey Kong Country games. More so than their Nintendo 64 games. Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest was one of my most favourite Super Nintendo games of all time. And that's a lot, considering that the Super Nintendo is my favourite video game console of all time. And home to almost all of my favourite video games.
Dixie Kong was a super cool character. I would almost always play as her. And I loved how she would play guitar when finishing a level. Her style as a character was really great, she reminded me a bit of Cammy from Street Fighter with her pink beret and blonde ponytail. And I wanted to get into heavy metal as a kid, so she really embodied a cool character for me.
And even though she was a secondary character in Donkey Kong Country 2, I feel that she shown best there. Donkey Kong Country was a good game, but Donkey Kong Country 2 was a marked improvement on that. While I liked that Donkey Kong Country 3 was starring Dixie Kong, my favourite Donkey Kong character. The secondary character wasn't very interesting, and the gameplay wasn't as well paced as Donkey Kong Country 2 and I feel that it simply couldn't live up to Donkey Kong Country 2.
Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest, really is one of the best platformers of all time. And not just the best Donkey Kong Country game ever created, but the best Donkey Kong game every created. It's up there with Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island. Which is also possibly the best platforming game ever created. Or at the very least another of the very best 2D platformers ever created.
I wouldn't say that they were better than Nintendo. But they did a very good job of making games as a studio under Nintendo. I would rate Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest and and Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island, and possibly the two greatest platformers of all time.
Rare games were good during the 32-bit or 64-bit era. Though I felt that games like Conker's Bad Fur day were extremely childish and gross. I understand that the game may be well designed, but the entire game is gross, cruel, and sadistic, and it grosses me out and I stay away from it. I also feel like Banjo-Kazooie isn't as good of a game as Super Mario 64.
David Wise is also a majorly talented composer that needs to work on more games. If I were rich and had the money to hire people to help me make a game, I'd like to hire David Wise as a composer.
Rare were also one of the best developers I know of. In the 16-Bit era, they really understood what made Nintendo games special, and were able to make games just as good. It really makes me wish that Rare and stayed with Nintendo.
Rare's downfall didn't effect their ability to make really pretty and technically well done games.
Damn I miss Rare, I think Nintendo losing them marked the beginning of the end of a long fanboy affair with Nintendo. Stuck around for a couple generations more but looking back I think their ability to push out quality game after quality game in so many varied genres is really missed by Nintendo, thinking of the N64 many of my fondest memories were playing their games, often with several friends together... probably my favourite days of gaming were on the N64 and thanks largely to them, so sad to see what happened to them.
Don't really care who was technically or artistically better between them and Nintendo, the fact people can even argue about it is a testament to the incredible quality of work they did back then, just miss what was my favourite developer
Don't really care who was technically or artistically better between them and Nintendo, the fact people can even argue about it is a testament to the incredible quality of work they did back then, just miss what was my favourite developer
Was talking graphics, not gameplay. Mario Kart 64 and Diddy Kong Racing released pretty close to each other but it is noticeably apparent that Diddy Kong Racing blows past Mario Kart 64 in the graphical department.
Shikamaru Ninja
任天å ã® å¿è
Development has drastically changed between the N64/GBC era and now. Budgets and staff sizes would make that output impossible and unreasonable.
I'm sure they will be really upset when they get fat bonuses and raises for developing games that yield higher revenue. Or you know, they could be making core scifi rpgs for the 5.000 Nintendo fans who will worship them on GAF.
But anyone who thinks that RARE alone carried the Nintendo 64 is just subscribing to insane hyperbole. The biggest contribution RARE made was Goldeneye 007, and guess what? That game came from RARE"s affiliation with Nintendo of America. It was Nintendo of America who acquired the license, and had an NOA production team (famous Ken Lobb for one) that helped guide the concept from the initial on-rail shooter to the FPS blockbuster that sold truckloads.
Most of RARE's original properties like Banjo-Kazooie, Blast Corps, and Jet Force Gemini really didn't do much to drive the platform. Nintendo was producing some edgy and revolutionary games at the time.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
One of my favorite N64 games.
Not really. Rare was run like a sweatshop, their productivity was so great because they were in constant crunch mode, all year-round. Contrary to popular belief, the majority of Rare's talent were jumping ship long before the Microsoft buyout, which is what prompted the Stampers to sell the company in the first place. It's also why Nintendo turned down the offer to become whole-owners.
I don't think anyone would expect them to make today's games in N64 game development schedules or on N64 budgets, but they were the most efficient and prolific then when it came to releasing quality games so you'd expect that level of development to scale into the new generations if things on the development and management side stay the same. Anyway it's all academic now but it felt like you were downplaying how efficient they were as developers as if that wouldn't translate at all to today's environment.
I wouldn't be surprised.
Rare produced the best looking games on N64, and their one game on GameCube used effects that no one else was able to pull off until years later, EAD Tokyo with Jungle Beat.
Graphically Rare were exceptional.
Framerate, gameplay, however, less so.
Nintendo's in house studios have never been really known for pushing hardware, and I don't know why people have this impression.
Ocarina Of Time was a great game, but even for the time it had muddy textures.
Currently Nintendo only really has 2 studios who regularly and reliably take advantage of the hardware they're working on: Retro and EAD Tokyo.
Rare produced the best looking games on N64, and their one game on GameCube used effects that no one else was able to pull off until years later, EAD Tokyo with Jungle Beat.
Graphically Rare were exceptional.
Framerate, gameplay, however, less so.
Nintendo's in house studios have never been really known for pushing hardware, and I don't know why people have this impression.
Ocarina Of Time was a great game, but even for the time it had muddy textures.
Currently Nintendo only really has 2 studios who regularly and reliably take advantage of the hardware they're working on: Retro and EAD Tokyo.
HolyBaikal
Banned
Jet Force Gemini would have been nice if they had succeeded in understanding the anime art-style. And I commend them for trying. It's sad that they didn't succeed. Jet Force Gemini would have had great character design if they had.
Also, the Donkey Kong Country games have had some of the best art direction I have ever seen in video games. All of the characters, sprites, and backgrounds look great. There's a lot of variation and detail in environments. And are easily some of the most beautiful games on the Super Nintendo. Not because of the almost-CG-realism look they were going for at the time. But because of the variation and attention to detail.
I feel that in the 16-Bit era was when Rare was at their best. Though Banjo-Kazooie also had great art direction.
Bluemercury
Member
Jet force gemini, goldeneye, perfect dark, banjo kazooie, diddy kong racing....are you guys kidding...all top notch games....oh and blast corps...
TreasureHunterG
Banned
Bullshit.
Rare games were very important, no doubt, but to say they alone were the sole reason for N64 success is silly. Acclaim, THQ, LucasArts and Activision had hits on the platforms, too.
Square2015
Member
Obligatory in every Rare thread, really puts things in perspective
Rare game sales 1994-06
For some reason imageshack is only allowing the link to display...
Rare game sales 1994-06
For some reason imageshack is only allowing the link to display...
Square2015
Member
BTW anyone know when the Microsoft / Rare contract expires? It's been eleven years. Rare, Nintendo you guys so need each other once again.