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[Manmademan]

You are completely oversimplifying it.

Goldeneye is completely overestimated in terms of how good of a game it was.

I'm not talking about overall quality. i don't think the game was that great personally. I don't even play FPS games. It WAS critical to the success of the N64, however- that's not up for debate. It's the third highest selling game on the platform, outsold zelda, and has a full 60% better sales than the 5th best selling game on the platform- super smash brothers.

Again, Rare has 4 of the top 10 games on the platform, and outside of that contributed the volume nintendo needed to fill it's schedule since it's internal studios weren't capable. Without rare the N64 would have failed outright, instead of a respectable 2nd after the PS1.

Duke Nukem/Doom over LAN were all much better multiplayer experiences available at the time, and I would say have more to do with FPS gaming today than Goldeneye ever could.

PC gaming was a fraction of the size it is now. no one in the PS1 or N64 audience was playing games over LAN. Broadband internet wasn't even common until after the DC launched. there's a reason the DC came packed in with a 56K modem.

The real Rare cashed out and ditched the rotting company anyways, hence the shitty output ever since.

And the IP...? Nintendo desperately needs more IP than it has, especially those that appeal to western audiences.

What would it have sold without Mario 64, Ocarina of Time, Mario Kart, Majora's Mask or Turok?

Mario 64 sold 11 million copies btw, nobody's saying Rare didn't have a very big impact, but to say they carried the N64 almost entirely on their own is crazy.

Without mario? also would have failed. but that's not the point. Without Rare, even mario would not have been able to carry that platform over the 20 million mark. Nintendo simply could not make enough games on their own internally, and had less than half the third party support the gamecube did. It would have been Sega Saturn part 2.

 

[Magicpaint]

Ehh, I think DKC3 is a great game. Not as good as DKC2, but still better than the first.

DK64 is horrendous though.

DK64 is awesome though.

Donkey Kong 64.

Lies.

 

[GuitarAnthony]

Kinda ironic when you look at Rare's status these days.

Did it become shit on Nintendo month and no one told me? I would have brought cupcakes. I half expect Randy Pitchford to start saying derogatory things about Nintendo just to keep the spotlight off of him and Gearbox.

 

[Balb]

And the IP...? Nintendo desperately needs more IP than it has, especially those that appeal to western audiences.

They don't really need more IP. They need more studios.

 

[Toxi]

DK64 is awesome though.

Lies.

DK64 is the best grocery shopping simulator I've ever played.

 

[MrCunningham]

I doubt Nintendo envied Rare, and I suspect the reverse was closer to the reality.

From a technical standpoint, Rare really was heads and shoulders above Nintendo's own internal teams. Especially on the N64 where Rare really showcased their technical expertise. Diddy Kong's Racing was a better looking game than Mario Kart 64, and Banjo and Conquer looked better than Mario 64.

 

[SmashN'Grab]

You are completely oversimplifying it.

Goldeneye is completely overestimated in terms of how good of a game it was. Duke Nukem/Doom over LAN were all much better multiplayer experiences available at the time, and I would say have more to do with FPS gaming today than Goldeneye ever could.

The real Rare cashed out and ditched the rotting company anyways, hence the shitty output ever since.

I thought (and still think) Goldeneye was one of the best games of the 90s. And I was primarily a PC player back then, well versed in the likes of Quake, Doom and Duke Nukem.

Hell, even the controls aren't as bad as they're sometimes made out to be. I could still play the game without too much trouble on the default control scheme today. It's a classic. A landmark title.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

Sorry but not even close. Besides the graphical capabilities of their titles, every single game they released similar to the ones Nintendo made was absolutely inferior in terms of gameplay.

Banjo Kazooie absolutely inferior to SM64's gameplay? I think not. BK gets the edge for being more open-ended about collecting Jiggies, having more variation in the things you do in each level, learning new moves...and the final boss fight with Bowser does not hold a candle to Grunty's.

DKC2 is a better comparison. That has aged much much better and is quite simply a superior game to DKC1 in every single way.

I agree, I was just trying to show what Rare was doing a whole year befoe what Nintendo was doing.

 

[SmokedMeat]

I don't believe Nintendo was envious, but I do believe they looked at Rare's more impressive visuals and were inspired to improve their own titles.

 

[Htown]

Rare made some good games, and they looked good.

Spoiler

Dropping Rare and picking up Retro was an upgrade.

 

[Gartooth]

Rare made some good games, and they looked good.

Spoiler

Dropping Rare and picking up Retro was an upgrade.

They make great games but come on now, Retro gets 2 games out per generation while Rare put out 11 on N64, at least half of which were must plays for that system.

 

[Manmademan]

They don't really need more IP. They need more studios.

they need both, to be perfectly honest. they need properties to appeal to gamers outside of nintendo's typical sandbox, and studios to develop those titles.

With more IP, they could at least farm out some B list or C list properties (Jet force gemini, for instance) to outside studios to see what sticks, but as it is they can't even do that.

 

[QaaQer]

I have a lot of choice things I'd like to say about Rare, but that's for another time. Instead, I'll simply say this: I doubt Nintendo envied Rare, and I suspect the reverse was closer to the reality.

Companies are made up of people, and people get jealous. So while it is impossible for a 'nintendo' to be jealsous of a 'rare', it is entirely possible for employee(s) to be envious of the work of other people.

 

[Camjo-Z]

Yeaaaah let's compare the launch game that is regarded as a timeless classic vs the Rare title nobody cares about and let's point to the graphics being better in the latter as if somehow it mattered.

Weird, I could have sworn I was specifically replying to TunaLover's claim that no Rare game matched Mario 64 artistically. But if you want to jump in and start arguing about the games' overall quality that's OK too I guess.

 

[Donnie]

Without mario? also would have failed. but that's not the point. Without Rare, even mario would not have been able to carry that platform over the 20 million mark. Nintendo simply could not make enough games on their own internally, and had less than half the third party support the gamecube did. It would have been Sega Saturn part 2.

Well exactly how many it would have sold without Rare is speculation, but of course I agree that without Rare N64 sales would have taken a big hit. But saying that Rare carried the N64 to what little success it had almost entirely by themselves suggests Nintendo had very little impact, which is just very wrong. I have very little doubt that Nintendo games sold the most N64 consoles, with Rare games selling the second most, third parties coming a distant third.

 

[The Hermit]

Rare and Nintendo carried the N64 to what little success it had almost entirely by themselves.

The N64 with no goldeneye, banjo, etc would have done worse than GameCube numbers coming off the SNES

fixed

 

[Usobuko]

As much as I dislike the looks of Mario and friends, artistically superior to them is not what I associate Rare games with. It's pretty much the opposite for my case.

 

[Mister Wilhelm]

Rare's biggest success during the N64 days (other than 007) came from basically modding Nintendo's proven hits. Get real.

When they did try to create something original, it flopped hard.

 

[Uncledick]

Rare's biggest success during the N64 days came from basically modding Nintendo's proven hits. Get real.

When they did try to create something original, it flopped hard.

What Nintendo games were Blast Corps, Killer Instinct, Perfect Dark and Goldeneye modded from?

 

[Talamius]

It's a shame about Zombie Rare these days. They were a premier dev house in the N64 era that has been completely wasted by Microsoft.

 

[Madness]

Tossell’s comments came about when asked if Nintendo ever shared code with Rare considering the Big N had a large stake in the company.

He said:
No, we never had the Zelda engine or any code they did! We did see an early version of Zelda and that was a big influence on Dinosaur Planet, though. Nintendo were often quite envious of us. I got the feeling they thought our games were technically and artistically superior to theirs. Miyamoto would visit regularly and I heard a rumor they redid all of the textures on Zelda after they’d seen our work on Banjo-Kazooie because our game looked better!

http://nintendoeverything.com/nintendo-were-often-quite-envious-of-us-says-former-rare-staffer/

Now that's a presumptuous thing to say, while most of Rare games were graphically very impressive in N64 they often suffer from serious frame rate problems, and no, no game from Rare came to the artistical degree to Majora's Mask, Ocarina of Time, Mario 64 IMHO.

I don't know. You're comparing games released at different times. Look what Rare did with Donkey Kong Country on the SNES, was amazing. Plus, 'artistical' is different to everyone. Look at the sheer size and design of a game like DK64 or Perfect Dark even, Conkers Bad Fur Day. Nintendo was probably jealous that a second party studio essentially started to rival or surpass them in a lot of areas. Just imagine what N64 would be without their games. I'd put the first Banjo against Super Mario 64 in terms of graphical fidelity any day. Same goes for Star Fox Adventures, which at the time of the Gamecube, was one of the most impressive titles I'd ever seen.

 

[Metallix87]

Ehh, I think DKC3 is a great game. Not as good as DKC2, but still better than the first.

DK64 is horrendous though.

Yeah, I can agree that DKC3 is better than the original, but I wouldn't call it a great game.

 

[WrenchNinja]

I can see how that makes sense. I mean, If Nintendo ever had the feeling that their capabilities were unique, and only they could make those "magical" games, Rare was right there saying nope, anything you can be we can do, sometimes better.

'94:

'95:

Top looks better.

What magical rare game are speaking of?

They've never made a kart racer as good as Diddy Kong Racing.

 

[polyh3dron]

Without Rare, the N64 would've been Nintendo's worst console EVER.

 

[Jacobi]

Rare made some good games, and they looked good.

Spoiler

Dropping Rare and picking up Retro was an upgrade.

Definitely disagree.

 

[CrimsonCrescendo]

I can see how that makes sense. I mean, If Nintendo ever had the feeling that their capabilities were unique, and only they could make those "magical" games, Rare was right there saying nope, anything you can be we can do, sometimes better.

'94:

'95:

You do realize that Yoshi's Island was supposed to have that child's storybook look as compared to having prerendered graphics, right? You are comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Uncledick]

This is the one that holds up for me today. More than any of their other N64 games.

It was an original IP and an amazing title at the time. In fact I would say that Rare excelled when they did their own thing. Rare's 3D platformers, racing titles and third person shooters had a samey but inferior nintnedo vibe to them. Rare truly excelled when they created new ips and did genre's that Nintendo didn't do.

But even at the end of the N64s life they proved with conker that they could produce 3D platformers even better then Nintendo's.

 

[Madness]

SM64:

Banjo:

Now I will say that SM64 came out quite earlier than Banjo, but I wanted to show how capable Rare was with a team that was probably half the size of Nintendo's top studios and given much, much, smaller budgets.

 

[Replicant]

Me-ow! It looks like the claws are out. It makes one wonders if Rare has had deep-seated anger towards Nintendo for quite a while now.

 

[silenttwn]

 

[Manmademan]

Exactly how many it would have sold is speculation, but of course I agree that without Rare N64 sales would have taken a big hit. However that doesn't equal "Rare carried the N64 to what little success it had almost entirely by themselves.". That suggests Nintendo had very little impact, which is crazy. I think perhaps we mostly agree but your initial comment was maybe a bit OTT.

Nope. I meant what I said.

N64 era nintendo did not have the resources to make the N64 a success without rare, and the N64 had the least third party support of any console of all time. I think the WiiU might even have better support, at least at this point in it's lifespan. (next year and beyond all bets are off though.)

look at this first party/exclusive release schedule- (using wikipedia, so forgive any inaccuracies)

1996/Launch- Super Mario 64
1996/Launch- Wave Race

1997-Feb Mario Kart 64
1997-Feb Turok
1997-March Blast Corps
1997-July Star Fox 64
1997-August Goldeneye
1997-Nov Diddy Kong Racing

1998-June Banjo Kazooie
1998-July F-Zero X
1998-Oct- Turok 2
1998-Nov Zelda
1998-Dec Rogue Squadron

1999-Feb Mario Party
1999-April Super Smash Bros
1999-April Pokemon Stadium
1999-Oct Jet Force Jemini
1999-Nov Donkey Kong 64

For the first three years, a full third of nintendo's exclusives were produced by Rare, and that includes the Turok games acclaim put out. Remove those and Nintendo does not have the ability to fill out a release schedule on their own, especially in 1997 and 1999.

edit: added in wave race.

 

[Metallix87]

From a technical standpoint, Rare really was heads and shoulders above Nintendo's own internal teams. Especially on the N64 where Rare really showcased their technical expertise. Diddy Kong's Racing was a better looking game than Mario Kart 64, and Banjo and Conquer looked better than Mario 64.

Here's the thing, though. From a pure technical standpoint, you'd be correct, but Rare's artists weren't as talented, and the end results suffered as a result. Nintendo's offerings may not have been as technically impressive, but the art style was better at projecting a cohesive end product.

 

[kinggroin]

4 out of the Top 10 ain't bad.

Oh and how I miss those days. The top 10 PS3/360 games are probably CoD FIFA CoD FIFA GTA CoD FIFA (etc)

Sure its not bad at all. I did say they helped

But that's not Rare carrying the N64 almost entirely by itself.

 

[Alcibiades]

Sounds quite plausible. I remember Miyamoto referring to Rare and Nintendo as "rivals" and how he didn't want to see Banjo Kazooie while working on Ocarina of Time knowing about the high quality visuals.

 

[apana]

Nintendo has always been a bit suspicious of the western affiliates, I am not sure if envy is the right word. OG Rare were awesome, the N64 and earlier work. What they turned into, well that is another story. They completely lost it. Nintendo and Stamper Bros took money out of Microsoft's big pockets. I heard Iwata wanted to keep the Banjo IP but the rest of Nintendo didn't want to drag the process out since it was a great deal for them and a good way to get rid of a declining studio.

 

[Madness]

Different art styles once again but look at the fact that Rare is a smaller studio and working with a budget far less than what Nintendo used.

They still had all this expertise and knowhow long after Microsoft bought them, which is why Conker for Xbox or Kameo on 360 looked so amazing, but Microsoft essentially ran Rare into the ground and now it's a shell of its former self. It's why Bungie bought themselves back, not to be under MS corporate rule anymore. I bet anyone from Rare will say that MS ruined what made the studio special and why so many left, though they did start to leave once rumors of Nintendo selling them began to leak.

 

[The_Lump]

C'mon guy, I'm sure they admired your work and even fed off of some of your ideas (as any good designer should),, .but envy? Not the right word in this situation methinks.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Here's the thing, though. From a pure technical standpoint, you'd be correct, but Rare's artists weren't as talented, and the end results suffered as a result. Nintendo's offerings may not have been as technically impressive, but the art style was better at projecting a cohesive end product.

I'm not seeing where the art suffered or the lack of cohesiveness in Rare's Nintendo titles. DKC has the neat claymation look to it through out the whole series, DKR and Banjo looks about as good as a cartoony game on the N64 could look. What's the issue?

 

[Celine]

Nope. I meant what I said.

N64 era nintendo did not have the resources to make the N64 a success without rare, and the N64 had the least third party support of any console of all time. I think the WiiU might even have better support, at least at this point in it's lifespan. (next year and beyond all bets are off though.)

look at this first party/exclusive release schedule- (using wikipedia, so forgive any inaccuracies)

I posted the full list of Nintendo published game that sold more than 1 million on N64 a few page back:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=92226703&postcount=86

Nintendo simply could not make enough games on their own internally, and had less than half the third party support the gamecube did. It would have been Sega Saturn part 2.

You don't know what you are talking about.
Sega Saturn actually got most multiplatform games in the first few years.

 

[Manmademan]

I posted the full list of Nintendo published game that sold more than 1 million on N64 a few page back:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=92226703&postcount=86

Yes, and I posted the list of exclusives by year to make a point. The first several years of a console's release is crucial.

Hey you pikachu doing 1.46 million didn't really do anything to save the console. at that point you're simply reselling titles to those that already have bought in.

You don't know what you are talking about.
Sega Saturn actually got most multiplatform games in the first few years.

son, have you been taking crazy pills? The saturn struggled to 10 million consoles total, and was slaughtered by the PS1 by the time the N64 launched in 1996.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Trying to start beef over old shit huh.

 

[IchigoSharingan]

We did see an early version of Zelda and that was a big influence on Dinosaur Planet,

If Dinosaur Planet is born from inspiration from Zelda, then I don't see anything for Nintendo to be jealous.

 

[sörine]

They've never made a kart racer as good as Diddy Kong Racing.

The last 3 Mario Karts were all way better than DKR. Double Dash and 64 were on the line, better for multiplayer but not single player.

 

[Celine]

Yes, and I posted the list of exclusives by year to make a point. The first several years of a console's release is crucial.

You list miss games.

son, have you been taking crazy pills? The saturn struggled to 10 million consoles total, and was slaughtered by the PS1 by the time the N64 launched in 1996.

Doesn't change the fact that Saturn got a good chunk of multiplatform games between 1995-1996.
Saturn problems were other, different from those of N64.

 

[Manmademan]

Doesn't change the fact that Saturn got a good chunk of multiplatform games between 1995-1996.
Saturn problems were other, different from those of N64.

Is english your first language? it doesn't seem like you understood anything I wrote.

At no point did I say anything about multiplatform titles- in fact it's a useless argument since almost all multiplatform titles sold far better on PS1, due to the cost of N64 games.

 

[Ridley327]

Different art styles once again but look at the fact that Rare is a smaller studio and working with a budget far less than what Nintendo used.

They still had all this expertise and knowhow long after Microsoft bought them, which is why Conker for Xbox or Kameo on 360 looked so amazing, but Microsoft essentially ran Rare into the ground and now it's a shell of its former self. It's why Bungie bought themselves back, not to be under MS corporate rule anymore. I bet anyone from Rare will say that MS ruined what made the studio special and why so many left, though they did start to leave once rumors of Nintendo selling them began to leak.

They definitely had different scales to them, but I was pretty damn impressed that SFA looked as good as it did and ran at 60 fps most of the time, especially with how disappointing SMS was in the framerate department.

 

[Celine]

Is english your first language? it doesn't seem like you understood anything I wrote.

No, but I understood what you write.
I disagree with the assumption that N64 would have been "a Sega Saturn part 2" (without Rare).
Because N64 didn't have Saturn weakness, despite Saturn having a bigger support by third-party overall (in the first years that's it, and mostly multiplatform with PS1).

 

[Linkhero1]

tough titty.

but I wouldn't be surprised if there was some truth to what he was saying.

 

[NotLiquid]

DK64 is awesome though.


Lies.

Agreed.

DK64 may have had too much shit to do but it's a finely crafted game with great production values and has some damn good payoff.

I really wish they tried Donkey Kong in 3D again, though perhaps not to the massive extents at DK64. I'd really like to see one of Nintendo's properties fill the void of open-world platformers ever since Mario made the switch to a more linear style. While I love that style as well I'd like to see a Nintendo platformer with big detailed worlds, exploration and secrets.

 

[iseedeadpeople]

What HIT did rare had after they left Nintendo again??????



I agree that rare n64 was awesome though.