Shmunter
Member
Don’t forget to say “in my opinion”
I would say making statements like the quality is trash is not even subjective it’s so ridiculous, but then - there are ridiculous people so it can make sense for someone to spout it.
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The Last Of Us Part 2 has sold over 10 million units earlier this year according to Neil Druckmann | Factions 2 is now a standalone multiplayer game
I would say making statements like the quality is trash is not even subjective it’s so ridiculous, but then - there are ridiculous people so it can make sense for someone to spout it.
Swipeyowifelike
Member
Pretty sure it has an option to go straight to encounters. I remember seeing that in the pick chapter section. I gotta start completely over so I can't check. I could be imagining the whole thing so don't hate me if it doesn't exist.
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DForce
NaughtyDog Defense Force
Your estimates are WAY off.
God of War sold 3.1 million in 3 days and 5 million in 33 days. Do you think The Last of Part II sold 6 million in one week? God of War was only able to sell 1.9 million copies in one month and you're saying The Last of Us managed to hit 6 million in one week. God of War to only sell 5 million in 12 months, and that's including bundles.
I look at the facts before giving estimates. There's no doubt that God of War would've hit 10 million closer to the 2-year mark if it wasn't for bundles.
Ass of Can Whooping
Member
Cuckman's success must really keep you up at night huh
Swipeyowifelike
Member
In the grand scheme of things, none of that matters. We still need a re-release of II, the show, the remake and a couple years before we get the entire picture. People are talking about underperformed without an idea of what the goal is. It broke even day one if I remember correctly, so how are some here saying it's not making profit.
Nautilus
Banned
Nautilus
Banned
Nah, I sleep like a baby knowing the game underperformed.
Ass of Can Whooping
Member
So unhinged lmao
Nautilus
Banned
Isn't it obvious?Any post that isn't using hard data like sales figures or some such are inherently an opinion.I thought that this was obvious, but it seems this concept is hard to grasp for you guys.
I agree with your last sentence though.People are allowed to like whatever they want, including junk like this game.
Swipeyowifelike
Member
Because great films exist with them present. As long as they don't become overbearing and a little to obvious, entertainment can still be had. Much like other people go to critiques like cliche and pretentious, it means nothing without context.Tell me how they aren't
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Shmunter
Member
You can say 1 is more than 2 in your opinion. Doesn’t mean it’s valid. Some things are just contrarian and equally ridiculous.
Not liking the game or plot is one thing. But some things like quality are not up for debate.
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TheGodfather07
Member
What is it about this game that draws out such pathetic losers? The kind that make it their life goal to hate on a videogame with such passion. Get a fucking life.
Swipeyowifelike
Member
Can someone tell me what the expectations for Sony was for this title in it's first 1.5 time on shelves? I keep seeing the word "underperformed" but no data.
Nautilus
Banned
And there are films and games that relies heavily on its story as its main focus that having big plot holes or inconsistencies get on the way of its enjoyment. Plot holes aren't a feauture, and its almost surely a mistake the story teller made.
Personally speaking, TLOU 2 have a few, like Joel being so trusting with aby even when it was reinforced that he remained skeptical after all those years, but that wasn't what bothered me.The shit story is what did.
Nautilus
Banned
Lol
Of course they are.The quality of ANY product is subjective.It just so happens that TLOU 2 as a game/product is shite.
Hezekiah
Banned
Those were Jeff Ross' numbers using trophy data.
Look at my follow-up - those Days Gone numbers aren't official, Sony never released them.
And TLOU2 sold 4m on pre-order, and continued to sell well in the months after release. No one's saying Day Gone was a flop, but it sure as hell didn't sell as well as TLOU2 (which is also yet to be released on PC), otherwise we would have heard about it, and a sequel would have been commissioned.
Nautilus
Banned
Nice, we are in the denial phase.We are making progress!
Nautilus
Banned
2 years*
Nautilus
Banned
Ok, I laughed lol
Rykan
Member
To me, this seems more of an issue with the kind of expectations that players have rather than the game saying "FU" to a part of its audience. Like, what kind of expectations are we talking about here? The Last of us isn't this long running franchise with long standing expectations to live up to. There was one game prior to TloU2 and even that game had Ellie as the main character through out the DLC. I think the first game of TloU made it pretty clear that the story was really about Ellie, not Joel.
Was what happened to Joel unexpected? In way, but that doesn't mean that it "betrays" expectations. Nothing about what happened to Joel is out of place. He arguably committed horrible crimes at the end of the first game and what happened to him makes sense in the rough, cruel world that TloU takes place in. I also think its worth discussing that this moment was completely ruined for a lot of players, especially on places like Neogaf. The fact of the matter is that most of us were robbed of an actual genuine reaction to this moment because this moment of the game was widely spoiled due to leaks prior to release. The narrative was that "Joel was killed by a transwoman" before the game even came out.
Lets just be frank here: The "Hatred" that TLOU2 received is because it has progressive themes in its storytelling. Joel wasn't just killed, everbody's favorite manlyman/Dad of the year got killed by an..unfeminine masculine woman. And the game has an increased focus on the fact that the main character is gay. Oh and theres a transgendered character too. That is REALLY what this is out. The outrage is fabricated by a bunch of right wing youtubers who found the perfect target for their next 15 videos. The leaks prior to the games release were the most profitable thing that could have happened to more than one youtuber.
I liked the first TLOU better from a story/character perspective, but what TLOU2 has done is ambitious. Sure it stumbles along the way and certainly not every story related aspect of it is a homerun, but its certainly not worse than typical video game storytelling and hardly deserving of the hatred it received.
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Hezekiah
Banned
Just been on Amazon and the PS5 version of Horizon is currently €55.
On the German Playstation Store (where the majority of copies will be sold along with bundles) it's €80.
Sounds like you're referring to temporary sales.
Swipeyowifelike
Member
You were supposed to be telling me how they are inherently bad, not that they can be. Do you understand what a plot hole is, cause it ain't a continuity issue.
Why was Joel so trusting of Abby, because he was doing what he felt at the time was the right thing. You may have forgotten, but this takes place years after the original and Joel has obviously changed a bit. Which isn't a plot hole, but characterization. His arc was complete.
To answer your question let us first answer what the expectations for a sequel of the almost universally beloved TLOU1 were? I think no one would have expected that the main protagonist of the original game would be disposed of in such a way. Surely not after that trailer... Reminds of that scene on the bridge in the abysmal episode 7. Equally as dissatisfactory and honestly repulsive.
Naughty Dog (ND) told the story that Neil Druckmann (also ND), this time unburdened by Bruce Straley's insistence on making an entertainment product somewhat enjoyable, wanted to tell. Liberated from the restrictions of Straley's input, ND was free to submerge the game in the depths of nihilism.
I am sure they gained new fans. New console fans are made every year as people grow up. But why say FU to a substantial chunk of the people who love you?
Of course, in the technical realm, the game delivers, and then some. And, to give credit where it is due, millions of people loved it in spite of what it was. But that is not the point.
But let me ask you - would you have loved it as much - or more - if some of the most controversial aspects weren't there.
Let's imagine Bruce didn't quit ND and was there to give his input on part 2. Would the game have turned out better? Maybe.
Was TLOU1, acclaimed all around, an awesome experience in part due to Bruce Straley's creative input? Absolutely, in my opinion.
And did TLOU2, also beloved by many, benefit or suffer from Bruce's absence? And if it did suffer, were there choices that he would have potentially vetoed?
Food for thought.
But maybe with Bruce it could have been a worse game. Maybe it wouldn't have been the multi-awards winning masterpiece it is.
Also, why should they change the story they want to tell, only because some of their fans might not like it?
In movies and books, beloved and important characters die all the time.
Dumbledore, Tony Stark, almost everybody in GoT, half of the Grey's Anatomy cast etc. etc.
Why should it be different in games?
Maybe FF7 would have had a different impact, if Aerith stayed alive. Literally the first person you see in FF7, who plays an important role in the story and is playable for 3/4 of the game.
Food for thoughts.
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Swipeyowifelike
Member
It's June 19th already, damn time does fly........wait a minute they said earlier this year. WTF are you talking about?
EDMIX
Member
Agreed.
One could argue why he was trusting of those brothers too in the very first game.
TheGodfather07
Member
Lmao. Look at his post history and how many times he's posted on this thread. Guys obsessed. It's hilarious!
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crunchyBiscuits
Member
I don't really agree with this. If I remember correctly, the guy at the bar called her a Dyke? So she called him a bigot? In the version I played, I don't remember her going around declaring herself a lesbian and everyone else bigots
I don't agree here as well. The villain wasnt reconned. Of course Joel is the villain from Abby's perspective. Because he killed her freaking dad and friends etc. How does that not make him a villain to Abby?
From our perspective in the first game, we don't give two shits about those people we mow down because they're going to kill Ellie for a cure that may or may not work. Screw them. Again.. perspective
I still think Part 1 was paced better and I felt more connected to the characters in it. Part 2 had the superior gameplay but the pacing felt off to me
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Swipeyowifelike
Member
Exactly, both games showed his growth to a more trusting person that sees some good left. Even if he's still a dick.
Majormaxxx
Member
Honestly, I had forgotten about the progressive angle, but your post reminded me how on the nose it was. My post was not about that. As for the youtube grifters - F them. They just exploit an opportunity as you said..
And as for left or right-wing politics - in a country where half the population is right-wing (or left-wing for that matter), you cannot use either term as a derogatory term. Really - half the country is wrong? Both parties use talking points that divide the people ON PURPOSE. And this purpose has nothing to do with ethics or ideas. It has to do with voting. Polarization works. I am sure left and right-winger politicians drink their whiskey together.
About Joel doing a horrible thing - any father would have done the same, whether the child is biological or adopted. To me, the controversial thing is that people find what Joel did to be morally wrong. This is not the moral dilemma of a tram running over one person vs a bunch of people. It choosing between what you consider to be your child, and the rest. Should Joel have let her be murdered, according to the people who think what he did was wrong? Wow.
The Eradicator
Member
Lol first of all, you replied to me once, and never asked me to list any plot holes, so let's exist in reality to start with.
Secondly, I have to seriously question anyone who suggests that the game has "no plot holes", because that tells me that you don't actually have a clue what that term means.
Plot hole: an inconsistency in the narrative or character development of a story... You're really going to try and act like TLOU2 has NO inconsistencies in the story?
Examples of types of plot holes include: unbelievable storylines, unbelievable character actions, characters changing personalities without warning, deus ex machina events, continuity errors, logic holes, narrative holes, etc.... are you REALLY suggesting that none of these things exist in TLOU2?
These are all things that took attentive players out of the story...
Ok, so literally the ENTIRE sequence between when Abby and Owen arrive in Jackson and when Abby kills Joel, that is one gigantic string of deus ex machina events, as in it a series of wildly convenient story points that taken on the whole, are not believable.
No matter what the defense brigade says, Joel and Tommy instantly giving away their names and location is a character plot hole, based on what we know of the characters in the first game. And NO, there's ZERO evidence that Joel has become more relaxed and complacent in Jackson, quite the opposite in fact. Several times, it is mentioned that Joel considers the patrols to be dangerous still. He has no illusion of safety. I have seen that ridiculous excuse used many times.
Tommy surving a gunshot to the back of the head, with no medical care around for over 1000 miles? Please don't defend THAT crap! Let alone Ellie and Dina being concussed/ has an arrow through the shoulder. Asinine decision to not explain any of that.
Abby leaving Ellie and Tommy alive is a plot hole, because it is a rather unbelievable event.
Abby leaving them all alive the second time, even more unbelievable.
Ellie leaving Abby alive at the end, after killing hundreds of people, traveling over 3000 miles via multiple trips, saying the whole time "she better not be dead, so I can kill her"... and then at the very end , let's her live? Massive character plot hole there. There's not a single moment leading up to that where Ellie feels remorse for anything regarding Abby. It makes no sense for her to have a 2 second flashback and just let Abby go. That isn't an earned ending, as I said before. They needed to write a lot more scenes to support that type of ending. They betrayed their own writing.
Ellie just happening to find every single person that was with Abby in a city the size of Seattle... unbelievable.
Ellie and Dina playing drums about ten feet away from clickers... ridiculous scene that made no sense except as a "music comes into the story late" moment.
How about Abby turning entirely on her "family", just to propel the story along? There's literally no reason she could not have just convinced Issac to let the kids stay since they were outcasts. She was supposedly his top soldier, right? That was a convenience plot line that makes no sense if you stop and think.
So there's way more than 3 that I have given you. There's more than that, but I haven't played the game in 2 years so it isn't fresh in my head. Debate them if you want, I've heard all the tired excuses hundreds of times. The defenses for the writing are always laughable, and rely solely on ad homimems and pointing to "awards" and metacritic scores as their "proof".
Plot holes are bad, because they remove an attentive reader or viewer from the story, questioning the events that they just witnessed. The more unbelievable plot holes in the story, the more times the reader is removed from the story, and the less they buy into your story. Plot holes ARE inherently bad.
Majormaxxx
Member
To me TLOU1 > TLOU2. And TLOU1 (as well as Uncharted 2) was with Bruce.
Tony Stark? Oh no... Sad to learn this as I hadn't watched all the movies
Swipeyowifelike
Member
And I forgot about the misuse of the term retcon. How was telling you who that doctor was changing any of our prior knowledge of the last game?
Ass of Can Whooping
Member
Characters doing things you don't like aren't plot holes my guy
Nautilus
Banned
In the same game it shows that Joel is the same distristing man as he has been in the first game.It wasn't a characterization, it was just a plain old mistake, a plot hole.They couldn't find anything more believable and said fuck it.
And I did just told you why plot holes are inherently bad.They are mistakes done by the story teller that takes the player away from the immersion.Some are worse than others, but nobody say "this game has plot holes" like its a good thing.Its you who didn't like my answer, but that's on you.
I'm talking about disc sales and i'm using price search engines like idealo or geizkragen. Amazon is actually never the cheapest place for games.
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Nautilus
Banned
They said "early Spring which is like April/May.It's June 19th already, damn time does fly........wait a minute they said earlier this year. WTF are you talking about?
So if you wanna say "It sold 10 million units in 23 months!" then sure, go ahead.
It will be pathetic, but its your choice lol.
Melchiah
Member
Where I was talking about lifetime sakes? I said the original reached 8 million in 15 months, and to a smaller userbase.
Topher
Gold Member
What was the point being made?
Swipeyowifelike
Member
Yeah you don't know what the fuck your talking about. The fact that you think people meeting randomly, when Abby was doing recon and Joel and Tommy were on patrol because of a horde says alot. You not understanding events is not a plot holes, maybe delusions of a syphilis ridden brain. Give better examples
Azurro
Banned
I agree. In fact, I think that the next game should include a wolf gendered person, a cake gendered person, a transracial person (Rachel Dolezal would be awesome for this role), three furries. It didn't sell well enough because it didn't include the full cavalcade of stupid, they should go all in.
What do you think?
Nautilus
Banned
But all those things were pretty obvious from the first game.That those guys were trying to do the right thing in their own way. So to just go back and further hammer down "No, Joel destroyed humankind future!" kills that ambiguity. At least it certainly felt like that.
But I never had that much of an issue with that part of the story.When the first trailer hit, I predicted that they would kill Joel, as that seemed the most obvious reason why Ellie would be on a war path. My problem with the game's story is everything else, which I already spoke at length in a previous pist.
EDMIX
Member
Joel trust the bothers in the first game....he literally gives them their names and tells them where they are headed.
So.....maybe stop fucking trying to tell us what this man would or wouldn't do when he already did that shit IN THE FIRST GAME, thus that is 100% in his character to do that, I'd argue more so after having a comfy life in Jackson.
People have survived shots to head before in the wilderness. You are not talking about some impossible thing.
Nah, we literally have stories all the time where a killer leaves literally dozens of witnesses and chooses not to kill them all or something.
Abby leaving them alive is simply based on her thinking she is the main character, the good guy etc. She wants to kill only JOEL, he is her target and to her, that is what this is about, not about killing all of Jackson or some shit.
So most of what you are saying is based on what you fucking want, not based on if such a thing can occur or not.
Would be like saying someone went to McDonalds and they offered a free happy meal and they said no and you like "woooooow PLOT HOLE, even MORE UNBELIEVEABLE" lol
Can you believe it? People out here actually thinking differently and having different points of views? wild /s
Varteras
Gold Member
It won tons of awards. Was a critical darling. Sold over 10 million copies, including over 4 million as soon as it launched. It was divisive. Many fans of the franchise didn't like the approach. It probably won't sell as many as the original. But despite that it continuously succeeds in generating significant conversation two years after its release. All things taken into account, the game is a great success. God of War Ascension was "concerning" and that game achieved far less than its predecessor, compared to TLOU Part 2 as well, and was followed up by Santa Monica's best, most successful game yet. The next entry in the franchise won't even be typical Naughty Dog. It's a big multiplayer game based off the well received Factions mode from the original. If it's successful, it could take the franchise to a whole new level.
I really don't think people quite understand how impressive 10 million on one platform is even after two years. Outer Worlds took almost 1.5 years to sell 3 million copies across 4 platforms. It took Dark Souls 3 about 4 years to sell 10 million on 3 platforms. The 20 million copies TLOU sold took over 6 years to achieve and that was with plenty of bundles and sales. Don't get me wrong. Great in itself. But God of War did better than that. It pretty much matched those sales in nearly half the time. As things stand, TLOU's average monthly sales are 277,000 per month. TLOU 2's are, currently, 417,000 per month. Roughly considering it actually achieved its numbers in Spring without giving us an actual month. Obviously, TLOU 2's sales are front loaded and over time that number will shrink. Quite likely lower due to the very divided reaction to the game. But we also can't count out a resurgence in interest from things like the remake of the original, the multiplayer game, and the TV show.
I don't think it will ever sell as well as the original, regardless. The first one had a charm to it that the second just, quite frankly, lacks. Many people don't like being forced to play as someone they can't relate to and want to see dead. They don't like contributing to that character's success and helping them hurt other characters they like. Abby was an intentionally unlikable character. Which is fine as part of the plot. Movies do that all the time. But I think there was an oversight by the directors here that movies and games are fundamentally different with how the audience engages and reacts. There is a much more personal feeling in games, especially in narrative-driven ones, and even more so in a situation where the previous game established a very likable pair that you are now forced to actively undermine and attempt to kill. In one case, succeeding.
There were also those who didn't much care for the sexuality and gender identity of various characters feeling forced or overstated. As if they were checking as many inclusion boxes as they could. There were also the character inconsistencies like Joel being too trusting when his established character was very much a cautious, untrusting person in a world that warranted it to an extreme. Sure, people can change and soften, and I'm sure he did, but to that extent? A bit unrealistic. Though to be fair, a writer is allowed to make such adjustments. In real life, I've let my guard down plenty of times for different reasons when normally it would be up. That makes Joel more human, if you ask me. Then again, I don't live in a post-apocalyptic world so perhaps that perspective doesn't fly? This doesn't even talk about pacing issues.
But at the end of the day, despite such complaints, the game is a success and there really isn't any way to argue that without looking salty. Things in this game that would have probably been a death sentence to the success of others saw the game push through and sell very well. I say this as someone who isn't really a fan of Naughty Dog's games.
I really don't think people quite understand how impressive 10 million on one platform is even after two years. Outer Worlds took almost 1.5 years to sell 3 million copies across 4 platforms. It took Dark Souls 3 about 4 years to sell 10 million on 3 platforms. The 20 million copies TLOU sold took over 6 years to achieve and that was with plenty of bundles and sales. Don't get me wrong. Great in itself. But God of War did better than that. It pretty much matched those sales in nearly half the time. As things stand, TLOU's average monthly sales are 277,000 per month. TLOU 2's are, currently, 417,000 per month. Roughly considering it actually achieved its numbers in Spring without giving us an actual month. Obviously, TLOU 2's sales are front loaded and over time that number will shrink. Quite likely lower due to the very divided reaction to the game. But we also can't count out a resurgence in interest from things like the remake of the original, the multiplayer game, and the TV show.
I don't think it will ever sell as well as the original, regardless. The first one had a charm to it that the second just, quite frankly, lacks. Many people don't like being forced to play as someone they can't relate to and want to see dead. They don't like contributing to that character's success and helping them hurt other characters they like. Abby was an intentionally unlikable character. Which is fine as part of the plot. Movies do that all the time. But I think there was an oversight by the directors here that movies and games are fundamentally different with how the audience engages and reacts. There is a much more personal feeling in games, especially in narrative-driven ones, and even more so in a situation where the previous game established a very likable pair that you are now forced to actively undermine and attempt to kill. In one case, succeeding.
There were also those who didn't much care for the sexuality and gender identity of various characters feeling forced or overstated. As if they were checking as many inclusion boxes as they could. There were also the character inconsistencies like Joel being too trusting when his established character was very much a cautious, untrusting person in a world that warranted it to an extreme. Sure, people can change and soften, and I'm sure he did, but to that extent? A bit unrealistic. Though to be fair, a writer is allowed to make such adjustments. In real life, I've let my guard down plenty of times for different reasons when normally it would be up. That makes Joel more human, if you ask me. Then again, I don't live in a post-apocalyptic world so perhaps that perspective doesn't fly? This doesn't even talk about pacing issues.
But at the end of the day, despite such complaints, the game is a success and there really isn't any way to argue that without looking salty. Things in this game that would have probably been a death sentence to the success of others saw the game push through and sell very well. I say this as someone who isn't really a fan of Naughty Dog's games.
Swipeyowifelike
Member
So not 2 years regardless of how pathetic I am? Really WTF are you saying?
Ass of Can Whooping
Member
He didn't even get shot in the head lol. The bullet scraped the side of his face. Hence the scar
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Rykan
Member
But that's kind of the discussion that you can have about the ending of the first game, right? Personally, I'm in the camp that thinks what Joel did was morally wrong. It's been a while since I've played TloU but IIRC, the ending was that Ellie had to be sacrificed so that a cure can be developed and the rest of humanity can be saved. I think that is what is called "For the greater good" and I think saving humanity over it was worth it, no matter how harsh it is.
Buddy, I hate to break it to you but none of what you mentioned is a plot hole. An inconsistency, Especially extremely subjective inconsistencies like some of the things you've mentioned, in itself isn't a plot hole.
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