the problem is that TLOU2 completely warped the shit out of the narrative to make Joel seem like a bigger piece of shit than he actually was.
How? Nothing in Part 2 changes the facts of what happened, you are just seeing the REACTION to those it effected in Part 2. That isn't "warped", that is simply seeing the fallout of events in Part 1, effect Part 2.
Factually he did those things to people in Part 1.
Factually someone came looking for him in Part 2.
Abby's father was about to perform a lethal dissection on a random young woman with no guarantee of a vaccine or anything, without her consent. Joel barges in after being held at gunpoint by the leader and bein"
None of that matters btw Your opinion about her father is completely irrelevant because all you're debating is the reason why the person did it you're not actually arguing that something factually changed with what occurred in part one to try to pretend something was warped in part 2
I want you to strongly consider that lots of people took the stance that you had before part two was ever even revealed which means such and idea was already debated which means part 2 is not warping or forcing some fake A Narrative of something that never existed in the first game it's simply continuing that debate.
So all you're doing is arguing the reasoning of Joel's actions in part one that does not change that people debated that and someone clearly would come for this man's life in part 2...
Years ago I even debated that Marlene family members might come after him or something and it looks like I wasn't that far off on such a theory if another family member of a firefly came to do him in because the idea of what we're discussing Is Not Unusual it's not something that is out in the ballpark you're literally fucking talkin about the most obvious result of killing a bunch of people might actually be revenge from those family members so part 2 is not warping anything even remotely regarding that concept. So this whole "Abby's Father was abou" Sooooo she doesn't care, she already knows what they were doing and she wants revenge. What you are saying is just arguing that you disagree with her killing him, not that one would not have that view in Part 1 and Part 2 MADE that "warped" view or something. Many people felt he was the bad guy or anti hero etc as you can look up all that yourself, thus Part 2 isn't creating that idea, it already existed cause he doesn't kill those people in Part 2, he does IN PART 1!!!
instead it basically portrays Joels actions as him being a dangerous thug that doomed humanity.
Thats also completely untrue, both games show both perspectives and I'd argue you see MORE of Joels in Part 1 then in Part 2.
In Part 2 many times its mentioned that his actions saved Elle.
Even the very ending of the game shows this bond they have and her TRYING to understand what he did, thus no...the game isn't JUST talking about the actions of the whole "doomed humanity" WLF sees that, Ellie and her camp see it another way. Ellie lies cause she KNOWS the person that killed him, had just reasons to actually kill him, but the game shows many sides of him to really fucking pretend that is the whole game.
Ellie's Birthday Scene is about Joel being a "thug that doomed humanity"? smh.
If you can find shit in the game that supports him being seen as bad, you can find shit in the game of those that supported what he did like Tommy, dear god stop fucking pretending the game is only about bashing him or something.
Yet in the second game, all that optimism and realization is completely lost, which really does come off more as a straight up retcon than some sort of character development
I greatly disagree.
She grows, she gets darker cause what happened and she now becomes a harder person.
Joel was at peace with his daughter, she dies, now he becomes a harder person. That isn't any "retcon" shit, that's life sir, you and I likely are not the same people after massive events in our lives. You don't need to agree with how that character develops as your view is your own, but no way can that be some "retcon" as he made the character, its up to him to shape what happens and I like that he didn't put on this unrealistic happy go lucky person and instead she starts to turn into Joel.
Maybe in the 3rd game, she becomes the person finding humanity and doing those hard things to find some sort of happiness, even if its doing the wrong thing and a young life she is trying to shape can't understand what she is doing and what this life can make you become over time.
bitter bitch thats even more of an asshole than Joel ever was, which just makes zero sense.
nahhhhy, probably makes the most sense out of anything in those 2 games tbh.
Something happened to Joel, he changes.
Something happened to Ellie, she changes.
Thats it. lol I don't even know why that would be debated lol
you can just tell Druckman didnt care at all about anything people liked with the first game and he just wanted to write some overly-dark revenge plot that "subverts expectations" despite it being insanely trope-y and generic
Well...its his story to tell and to be honest, if you write something, don't listen to me man, write what the fuck YOU WANT TO WRITE. Don't pander to me, don't try to write what you think I'll like, ignore what I liked about the first book, game, season of a show, film etc, write what you want. I want to see what you are bringing to the story, not what you think I want and trying to make something to please people or by the numbers or some safe shit like that. I personally love how this game turned out and love that we see Ellie grow and she makes choices I don't agree with, but its because that is a character who makes mistakes, just like Joel did things in Part 1 that I hated, but I loved the game for it. I'm not either character, I'm just watching them make their choices and in for the rollercoaster ride.