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Former Naughty Dog programmer talks about how a slightly different ending was considered for TLOU 2 (translated from 2020 interview)

cormack12

Gold Member


Saw this and thought it might be of interest as someone recently translated it for the sub. Infect me if old.


About his time working with Naughty Dog and Rockstar Games:

  • He talked about how company culture worked between R* games and Naughty Dog, saying that Naughty Dog gave the team much more creative freedom with their work, he himself having a direct channel to Neil Druckmann and being able to pitch ideas. He also remarks how ND only has 1 office in Santa Monica, California, while R* has several, spanning different countries. He worked on a team of 30 programmers making the whole game, while in R* he worked with 30 programmers focusing only on "gameplay systems".
  • When he first joined, he started working on a Demo they had planned. He then was inherited some systems including:
  1. Climbing walls and ladders (originally from "Ryan", probably former programmer, idk who he is).
  2. Jumping from and to ledges (originally from the same person that made the sliding system).
  3. Finishing said sliding system, as it was only half done when he joined.
  4. Weapons systems, specifically how you throw bottles and bricks, animations for grabbing stuff from the backpack, smoke grenades, Molotov's (he fixed them), mines (made from scratch) and a bow modification showing you where the arrow will land.
  • He talked about a couple things he pitched/weren't high up the list of priorities but ended up adding because he thought they were cool:
  1. When you jump, they wanted to do contextual animations, so when you jump but barely miss and hit a wall head up, you bounce back instead of using a normal falling animation.
  2. If you are on a slippery sliding surface and instead of just falling naturally, you jump, the character smashes their head and back. Originally it showed no facial animation, but he thought part of the immersion of TLOU 1 was facial expressions, so he worked with the cinematics department to implement a system that would change them to fear/panic and pain when they hit the ground. You can use photo mode to better see this in action.

Some fun easter eggs and anecdotes:

  • There's a calendar with a cat somewhere in game, that cat belongs to a friend of his on the studio.
  • Some enemies in the game use facial scans from people around the studio, some are friends of his.
  • They were sent emails encouraging them to make up superheroes for some cards in game, after that they'd be sent to the art department for finishing. There's a card featuring an evil doctor based on Neil.
  • Ellie's guitar is modeled after a director's own guitar. Fran submitted his own for a chance to be in the game, but they didn't choose it.
  • He proposed voicing a Spanish speaking character, but it didn't go anywhere.
  • There was a bug for some weeks where character animations didn't translate well to different skeletal meshes, so it resulted in characters having really long necks during their animations.
  • Some play testers refused to kill dogs and just stopped playing, and others killed themselves on purpose while playing as Abby against Ellie.

Regarding the story:
  • He was given a brief spanning the whole story the moment he joined. He liked how they had a brave approach going into it, and the decision to kill Joel and make Ellie the main character.
  • The part they had the most trouble with was regarding how to make players empathize with Abby. He said that the hardest part for him was to empathize with her, even after spending a lot of time working with her. He still thinks they managed to make their point in the final product.
  • (Here he's asked as a fan: What would've you changed from the game?) He thinks the game's tempo can get really slow, especially the beginning with Ellie and the aquarium level with Abby. Also, he would've liked a more open world approach, similar to the Seattle level.
  • In the final fight against Abby, it was originally intended for the player to be given a prompt to drown her by spamming a button, but without being able to fully do it, making the player realize they have to willingly spare her life. Some play testers just kept pressing the button to try and finish Abby though, which didn't work very well. Fran thought it'd be cool to be given a real choice, but he knew the team wouldn't accept it as the story was already meant to end this way to convey the message more clearly.

cReddit
 

rofif

Can’t Git Gud
It's a game about growing to realize your revenge is a never ending circle and letting go.
That ending is incredible and it's eye opening to see the divide of streamers/let's plays who cried at the end and those who screamed "fuck abby, I want to kill her, why can't I kill her".
yeah.... empathy and all that stuff... that must say something about irl personality...

I personally cried at the end and they both lost everything. Abby grew on me as a character and I really disliked her like everyone else. That game is a real emotion rollercoasters.
 

xBlueStonex

Member
It's a game about growing to realize your revenge is a never ending circle and letting go.
That ending is incredible and it's eye opening to see the divide of streamers/let's plays who cried at the end and those who screamed "fuck abby, I want to kill her, why can't I kill her".

'Growing to realize' lol. No shit revenge is bad, it's the most common trope there is and was done with the subtlety of a sledgehammer. Almost comical, considering RDR2 did the same exact theme much better two years prior. The only people who cried during TLOU2 are part of the im14thisisdeep crowd.

The 'braver' decision would have been giving the player the CHOICE to kill Abby in the end. Taking that away undermined everything the 20+ hour playthrough stood for. Absolutely baffling.
 
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rofif

Can’t Git Gud
'Growing to realize' lol. No shit revenge is bad, it's the most common trope there is and is done with the subtlety of a sledgehammer. Almost comical, considering RDR2 did the same exact theme much better two years prior. The only people who cried during TLOU2 are part of the im14thisisdeep crowd.

The 'braver' decision would have been giving the player the CHOICE to kill Abby in the end. Taking that away undermined everything the 20+ hour playthrough stood for. Absolutely baffling.
And that's what I am talking about lol. And just like that - I know what kind of person you really are if you really think it's that simple.
 

SlimeGooGoo

Party Gooper
Some play testers just kept pressing the button to try and finish Abby though
Man Body GIF
 

Calverz

Member
It's a game about growing to realize your revenge is a never ending circle and letting go.
That ending is incredible and it's eye opening to see the divide of streamers/let's plays who cried at the end and those who screamed "fuck abby, I want to kill her, why can't I kill her".
yeah.... empathy and all that stuff... that must say something about irl personality...

I personally cried at the end and they both lost everything. Abby grew on me as a character and I really disliked her like everyone else. That game is a real emotion rollercoasters.
By the end I loved Abby and hated Ellie. I laughed when she couldn’t play guitar anymore. Dumbass
 
Abby is a more likable character than Ellie. Despite making her a physical monster so players "hate her" at first sight, ND was not very subtle in making her much more relatable and empathetic. She loves dogs, she has a cute side, she is not a loner and, actually, has fun with her friends. And also, she has better life aspirations than revenge.

As for Ellie, she is a nihilistic lost child who got angry because the only man who cares for her stopped her from being sacrificed. And then she wants to kill everyone because she realized how badly had fucked up. She is brave and strong, but not a good friend.

The ending was perfect. It closes the story neatly and I hope TLOU 3 changes scenario and characters.
 

Topher

Gold Member
If a game is going to be based on gamer agency then it should be that way from the beginning, not shoehorned in at the end.

In the first draft Abby was supposed to end up dead, they rewrote it as the story took shape. Imo for the better

I agree. I liked the ending. It was still a dark game, but this was the best ending.
 
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Guilty_AI

Member
Abby is a more likable character than Ellie. Despite making her a physical monster so players "hate her" at first sight, ND was not very subtle in making her much more relatable and empathetic. She loves dogs, she has a cute side, she is not a loner and, actually, has fun with her friends. And also, she has better life aspirations than revenge.

As for Ellie, she is a nihilistic lost child who got angry because the only man who cares for her stopped her from being sacrificed. And then she wants to kill everyone because she realized how badly had fucked up. She is brave and strong, but not a good friend.

The ending was perfect. It closes the story neatly and I hope TLOU 3 changes scenario and characters.
And thats a big reason why the story fails for many, you can see the puppet strings.

Its a story where the plot forces itself on the characters, not one where the characters create the plot. A noob mistake by writers who get too blinded about some theme or "the message" and forget the rest, or are simply incapable of coupling them all together.
 
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I liked the ending personally and I thought it was perfectly executed from start to finish, with a roller coster of raw emotion leaving me wanting more with each session (few games do this to me).

I certainly got the message Naughty Dog wanted to convey after spending predominantly most of the game, biding my time to kill Abby off in a similarly horrific way to how Joel met his own brutal demise.

As the story unfolds I genuinely started to come around to Abby and I honestly sympathised with her and liked her character eventually. Ellie on the other hand was just consumed with hate and wasn't the character I came to love anymore, but I still enjoyed watching her own character development throughout the story.

I knew from the get go that ending Joel was a hell of a risk potentially turning a huge fan base off. I like that Naughty Dog took risks regarding the writing and character development. I can't think of a game personally as crazy as this one, killing off one of the main protagonists, let alone at such an early stage in the game takes balls of steel.


xSxA4PM.jpg
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
lol I like how the devs and play testers all gave them the same exact feedback gamers did, but they stuck to their guns anyway. That shouldve been a giant red flag that the game isnt connecting with its audience. That the game's story simply wasnt working.

The choice makes no sense because the story is Ellie's, not yours. You dont choose to save Ellie in the first game, Joel makes that choice for you. The only difference is that in the first game, Neil was able to make Ellie likeable in 15 hours and after a 30 hour slog, he wasnt able to make Abby likeable. Everyone fucking hated that bitch and they all still do. I dont know anyone who has come around on her. I like the game and gave it my GOTY, and I still dont fucking like her. Awful character.

Hopefully Neil has learned a big lesson here, make your protagonists likeable. Its not rocket science. Its storytelling 101.
 
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Doom85

Member
What people fail to realize because they realized the story had a “revenge is bad” angle and decided that’s all they needed to know and proceeded to ignore any further theme development is that Ellie does not spare Abby because “revenge is bad”.

She does it for Joel.

Dina did not want Ellie running off again looking for Abby once they had settled at the farm. She wanted her to move on and truly start a life with her and their child. And it was clear that if Ellie choose to go after Abby, it could cost her her relationship with Dina.

As Ellie and Abby face off at the end, we’re treated to one final flashback with Ellie and Joel. They talk about how Ellie will try to slowly amend her relationship with him. But also how Joel wants Ellie to be happy and that if Dina truly cares about her then he wants that for Ellie.

Ellie realizes by choosing vengeance for Joel‘s sake over her relationship with Dina, she has actually gone against what Joel wanted for her. And even if it’s probably too late to save her relationship with Dina now, she spares Abby regardless in a desperate attempt to undo the damage she has done.

Sadly, she returns home to find it empty. She’s too late, and she sits alone with her guitar, the one thing she has left from him. In her desire to do right by Joel, she actually went against the last thing he made clear he wanted for her.

The players screaming for Ellie to find and kill Abby for Joel’s sake are ironically disrespecting Joel himself.
 

Pelao

Member
If there's a 3rd title in the works then wouldn't they have to create a narrative based on one of those choices? I think of the last Gears game specifically.
Metro works around this with no problem. They simply make one of the endings canon for the sequel. It's not rocket science.
 

SlimeGooGoo

Party Gooper
What people fail to realize because they realized the story had a “revenge is bad” angle and decided that’s all they needed to know and proceeded to ignore any further theme development is that Ellie does not spare Abby because “revenge is bad”.
I'm pretty sure everyone realized that, since the story is told with the subtlety of a bulldozer.

It's just too pretentious and badly executed. The fact that a flashback was put there in the end is hilarious, it makes it even less impactful.
Druckmann is a hack, he's more interested in shoving his agenda down people's throats than in actually learning how to tell an interesting story.

Here's a good story about "revenge bad" that has an excellent execution

mononoke_hime_aka_princess_mononoke_aka-598406013-large.jpg
 

EDMIX

Member
By the end I loved Abby and hated Ellie. I laughed when she couldn’t play guitar anymore. Dumbass
lol yessssssssssssss

I went back and forth with who I liked and I think the game did a fucking great job of that. It was a rollercoaster of emotions and something I've never felt playing any other game. I go from hating Abby cause she killed Joel and feeling sorry for Ellie.

To then hearing Ellie lie to Jesse about WHY they killed Joel made me question her having him risk his life, for something she is lying to him about. It made me hate her more when you realize she is lying to her friends about that entire reason on why he was killed up until the point where Abby was about to end Dina with that knife lol

So when she says "i know why you did it", but you knew the whole time and never told your friends, friends that might actually talk you out of it when they realize the person that came to kill Joel, had their father killed by him.

She lied cause she knew there was just reason for someone like Abby to show up one day.


Then when you get to Abby's story, it clicks and you better understand her and her obsession of finding the man that killed her father, you get her connection to WLF and you see her question her own people when she makes friends with the Scar kid.

I love the idea of the farm cause it does indeed felt like the game is about to end and I believe this is purposely done to give you this sense of completion, to make you feel like it's fine to end it here and then to give you a bit more pain lpl

This is executed beautifully and in a way I've never seen another game do with pacing or time. When Tommy is coming to tell her about this lead you could already sense that she's becoming like Abby in regards to her hunt for revenge. Even with Dina pleading with her not to leave.


But the interesting twist in this is if Ellie never goes looking to kill Abby, Abby technically dies on that beach tied up and mal-nourished.

I enjoyed everything they were able to do with that game in terms of a story and I agree with the xe programmer, there is a bravery in killing a character the way they kill Joel.

Fuck the safe way....

We have way too many games giving that cartoon, Saturday morning, dumbass comic book horse shit of some person dying giving some nice speech at the very ending of a game after he saved 10,000 nuns lol

I love how its unexpected, random, at the very start and brutal.
 

Heimdall_Xtreme

Jim Ryan Fanclub's #1 Member
Abby is a more likable character than Ellie. Despite making her a physical monster so players "hate her" at first sight, ND was not very subtle in making her much more relatable and empathetic. She loves dogs, she has a cute side, she is not a loner and, actually, has fun with her friends. And also, she has better life aspirations than revenge.

As for Ellie, she is a nihilistic lost child who got angry because the only man who cares for her stopped her from being sacrificed. And then she wants to kill everyone because she realized how badly had fucked up. She is brave and strong, but not a good friend.

The ending was perfect. It closes the story neatly and I hope TLOU 3 changes scenario and characters.
I must confess that I am one of the people who likes Abby's scenarios more than Ellie's...

That scene where Ellie is at a religious site bothered me, I hated that part of the game.
 

Doom85

Member
I'm pretty sure everyone realized that, since the story is told with the subtlety of a bulldozer.

It's just too pretentious and badly executed. The fact that a flashback was put there in the end is hilarious, it makes it even less impactful.
Druckmann is a hack, he's more interested in shoving his agenda down people's throats than in actually learning how to tell an interesting story.

Here's a good story about "revenge bad" that has an excellent execution

mononoke_hime_aka_princess_mononoke_aka-598406013-large.jpg

Complains about a message being shoved down people’s throats, then praises a film by a director so obsessed with shoving “the environment is important!” message down our throats that he took a book (Howl’s Moving Castle) that had no environmental message in it and changed the final act a bunch just to hammer his message in our faces one more time.

Spock Encerio GIF


But honestly, if someone with as consistently bad takes as Slime dislikes TLOU Part 2, holy shit, then TLOU Part 2 must be even more amazing than I realized!

The Wire Reaction GIF
 

Doom85

Member
Subtlety is an art, and Miyazaki is masterful at it.

Sure Jan GIF

Here, for you

Billy Crystal Crying GIF by MOODMAN

No, you keep it. You’ll need it for tonight as you fantasize about you and Miyazaki frolicking through nature together.

Just don’t ask his opinions about almost anything lest you want your idolized image of him shattered.



Oh My God Reaction GIF


Edit: I do like a few of his and Ghibli movies, but not everything he touches is gold, and he sounds insanely insufferable even by “creative people are nuts” standards.
 
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rkofan87

Gold Member
Abby is a more likable character than Ellie. Despite making her a physical monster so players "hate her" at first sight, ND was not very subtle in making her much more relatable and empathetic. She loves dogs, she has a cute side, she is not a loner and, actually, has fun with her friends. And also, she has better life aspirations than revenge.

As for Ellie, she is a nihilistic lost child who got angry because the only man who cares for her stopped her from being sacrificed. And then she wants to kill everyone because she realized how badly had fucked up. She is brave and strong, but not a good friend.

The ending was perfect. It closes the story neatly and I hope TLOU 3 changes scenario and characters.
then why did abby kill joel?????????????????????
 

rofif

Can’t Git Gud
What people fail to realize because they realized the story had a “revenge is bad” angle and decided that’s all they needed to know and proceeded to ignore any further theme development is that Ellie does not spare Abby because “revenge is bad”.

She does it for Joel.

Dina did not want Ellie running off again looking for Abby once they had settled at the farm. She wanted her to move on and truly start a life with her and their child. And it was clear that if Ellie choose to go after Abby, it could cost her her relationship with Dina.

As Ellie and Abby face off at the end, we’re treated to one final flashback with Ellie and Joel. They talk about how Ellie will try to slowly amend her relationship with him. But also how Joel wants Ellie to be happy and that if Dina truly cares about her then he wants that for Ellie.

Ellie realizes by choosing vengeance for Joel‘s sake over her relationship with Dina, she has actually gone against what Joel wanted for her. And even if it’s probably too late to save her relationship with Dina now, she spares Abby regardless in a desperate attempt to undo the damage she has done.

Sadly, she returns home to find it empty. She’s too late, and she sits alone with her guitar, the one thing she has left from him. In her desire to do right by Joel, she actually went against the last thing he made clear he wanted for her.

The players screaming for Ellie to find and kill Abby for Joel’s sake are ironically disrespecting Joel himself.
And the best thing. It’s all said with Dina’s eyes when Elle is leaving. No other studio could do that
 

rofif

Can’t Git Gud
Metro works around this with no problem. They simply make one of the endings canon for the sequel. It's not rocket science.
And this sucks ass. Exodus ending is decided upon some magical decision. And it’s stupid artyom never talks but he does on loading screens. It’s his story so what is
 

Bojji

Member
  • In the final fight against Abby, it was originally intended for the player to be given a prompt to drown her by spamming a button, but without being able to fully do it, making the player realize they have to willingly spare her life. Some play testers just kept pressing the button to try and finish Abby though, which didn't work very well. Fran thought it'd be cool to be given a real choice, but he knew the team wouldn't accept it as the story was already meant to end this way to convey the message more clearly.

cReddit


CtnoA5W.gif
 

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
Excellent insights. Thanks for sharing this.

I am glad they went with the ending they chose in the retail version. It ties in with the story and themes much better. A choice prompt (like Ghost of Tsushima's ending, which went perfectly in that game) would have been awful in TLOU 2.
 

Pelao

Member
And this sucks ass. Exodus ending is decided upon some magical decision. And it’s stupid artyom never talks but he does on loading screens.
I was talking about how they handle the issue of having different endings when moving on to the next installment, not how the ending is decided within each game. Although, funnily enough, of the three games, Exodus is where they make it the most clear which decisions affect the ending if you're paying attention to the story. But if you don't like it, that's up to you, you're free to have your opinion. 🤷‍♂️

It’s his story so what is
I guess I'll never know how this post ends. :messenger_grinning_sweat:
 

Whitecrow

Banned
And thats a big reason why the story fails for many, you can see the puppet strings.

Its a story where the plot forces itself on the characters, not one where the characters create the plot. A noob mistake by writers who get too blinded about some theme or "the message" and forget the rest, or are simply incapable of coupling them all together.
This 100%. I cant put it in better words.

The necessity of the plot dictates what characters do, instead of characters personality, and that makes the story fail to connect.

The diet Abby would need to get that body is just impossible in that world, where food it's hard to get and needs to be carefully distributed.
Let alone if the genes let her get it.

But it needed to happen, so The Writer (aka Druckmann) threw the logic through the window for that.

Also, Abby did not just 'kill' Joel. She humiliated him like a psycopath, and after he saved their lives.
Also, of all the characters that could get a sex scene, just happened to be Abby.

Basically, TLOU2 was made for Abby to exist.
 

Three

Member
  • In the final fight against Abby, it was originally intended for the player to be given a prompt to drown her by spamming a button, but without being able to fully do it, making the player realize they have to willingly spare her life. Some play testers just kept pressing the button to try and finish Abby though, which didn't work very well. Fran thought it'd be cool to be given a real choice, but he knew the team wouldn't accept it as the story was already meant to end this way to convey the message more clearly.


Anybody remember this?

 

mdkirby

Member
Interesting. I think they did a good job getting you to empathise with Abby. I liked Abby by the end, I preferred her character, and kinda hated Ellie by the end. I’d quite happily play as Abby along with a new male character in the third game (or Abby and Tommy). Given Ellie’s unique role in the game tho I find it unlikely they’ll just kill her off…but they could have her none playable and further down the path of the antagonist/villain so she can be sacrificed to a lab at the end to formulate a cure.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
This 100%. I cant put it in better words.

The necessity of the plot dictates what characters do, instead of characters personality, and that makes the story fail to connect.

The diet Abby would need to get that body is just impossible in that world, where food it's hard to get and needs to be carefully distributed.
Let alone if the genes let her get it.

But it needed to happen, so The Writer (aka Druckmann) threw the logic through the window for that.

Also, Abby did not just 'kill' Joel. She humiliated him like a psycopath, and after he saved their lives.
Also, of all the characters that could get a sex scene, just happened to be Abby.

Basically, TLOU2 was made for Abby to exist.
Honestly there is worse stuff. The whole cross the country for revenge plot is something often gets mentioned, and is indeed very dumb. Imagine crossing vast expanses of land infested with zombies and bandits, leaving all of your life behind just to kill some guy.

Its dumb when Abby&Co does it, its dumb when Ellie does it. The story lost me when i noticed a severe lack of people with common sense to tell Ellie "No you dumb bitch, thats an horrible idea and you'll die before you even know what hole she lives in", i think there was one woman who opposed her but even she came around and began speaking as if that was perfectly reasonable course of action.

Then there's how the 'plot' keeps trying to dictate that, despite doing the exact same thing, Abby's quest was somehow justifiable while Ellie is evil, and the only way it knows how to do that is through completely circunstancial events. Its severely lacking in self-awareness.
 
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sncvsrtoip

Member
lol I like how the devs and play testers all gave them the same exact feedback gamers did, but they stuck to their guns anyway. That shouldve been a giant red flag that the game isnt connecting with its audience. That the game's story simply wasnt working.

The choice makes no sense because the story is Ellie's, not yours. You dont choose to save Ellie in the first game, Joel makes that choice for you. The only difference is that in the first game, Neil was able to make Ellie likeable in 15 hours and after a 30 hour slog, he wasnt able to make Abby likeable. Everyone fucking hated that bitch and they all still do. I dont know anyone who has come around on her. I like the game and gave it my GOTY, and I still dont fucking like her. Awful character.

Hopefully Neil has learned a big lesson here, make your protagonists likeable. Its not rocket science. Its storytelling 101.
So only choices make sense when you play some noname ? Weak argument imo. Btw I liked Abby ;d Her feelings were justified also he had some rough days during gameplay was hard not to feel some pitty ;d
 
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