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When will a game surpass TLOU 2's combat? The combat feels next gen.
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Lethal01
Member
Sure, but there are tons of games with "simple, cartoony, repetitve" animations with better gameplay. They may look more "last gen" but the feel is something that the gen is irrelevant too.
The enemy crying mire realistically when you shoot em in the jeg does not enhance the gameplay feel
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GymWolf
Member
If that thing is ever gonna come out looking like that it's gonna be glorious, i followed the tech demo for the longest time.
Yeah it seems to have been a long road. But it’s not like there’s been radio silence. There’s been each year quite lengthy gameplay demos etc, so I’d be surprised if it turns into vaporwear. It could release but be a disappointing mess. Or it could release, look great, but be crap to play (like scorn)
Vick
Member
I don't know man.. to me it's just incredibly hard to take seriously people complaining about the AI in this game when alternatives in the genre are things like Resident Evil 4 Remake or Alan Wake 2.. or when even the game always mentioned as being better such as MGSV have some of the most gamey and surely much more exploitable AI.
But whatever, already got a warning so I guess I'll just stop partaking in this apparently delicate discussion and keep humbly living in the reality where the vast majority of games don't spark discussions like this or are described as such:
The Last of Us 2 Fan Spots Awesome Detail on Grounded
Despite being out for nearly two years, some The Last of Us 2 players are still finding things they never knew, such as a neat Grounded detail.
gamerant.com
And that's all..
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Ogbert
Member
This is a daft conversation.
TLoU does its own thing. The animations are without peer. It does an incredible job of delivering weight and sensation to the combat. It’s almost more like a simulator, as opposed to a game.
But the actual combat encounters are super simple. There’s not a huge amount of player agency involved. But like a well directed stage play, it gives you the illusion of that agency.
It’s the best in class for third person cinematic games. But those games, as a genre, are very narrow.
TLoU does its own thing. The animations are without peer. It does an incredible job of delivering weight and sensation to the combat. It’s almost more like a simulator, as opposed to a game.
But the actual combat encounters are super simple. There’s not a huge amount of player agency involved. But like a well directed stage play, it gives you the illusion of that agency.
It’s the best in class for third person cinematic games. But those games, as a genre, are very narrow.
WitchHunter
Banned
Vick
Member
Objectively, if there's not a huge amount of player agency involved in most TLOU2 encounters, most of those featured in a game like Resident Evil 4 Remake could be described as a literal QTEs, while others like Alan Wake 2's or Resident Evil 2's as literal single frames of a QTE.
This is exactly what I meant with posts hard to understand, and probably why stop engaging in this kind of discussion in here would be the preferred course of action for me.
ProtoByte
Member
First off, this encounter may as well be taking place in a blank test environment. There's no environmental interaction, not even the most basic of cover dynamics which is a TPS fundamental. No verticality, no obstructions.
Next, there's no consideration of range or positioning displayed here with different enemies or weapons - not even with explosives in close quarters.
The AI looks fucking ridiculous towering over and out numbering Leon and not taking advantage of that. You try going in like that against any of the enemy types in TLOU2, you're getting rocked. Enemies will only not interrupt when you're in the middle of a finisher animation or they're sighting you with their ally in the way, but right after that, you will find yourself shot, grabbed or bashed in the head. The same will happen if you dodge in a bad direction.
You also need to keep on the move so as not to get cornered, flanked, or flushed out into inconvenient places depending on the enemy types and the environment.
Obviously the design goals and tone here are different
There's next to zero resource management in that clip either, it's just Leon spraying bullets. The scarcity doesn't get enough credit in Part II - it makes you consider what you have and think ahead before you make a move in an encounter. You'll also be surveying the environment as you're fighting, adding to the pressure. You'll also have to identify opportunities where you have space and time to craft if you do find something useful.
If you managed a headshot or missed with an arrow where it hit a surface at the right angle, you can grab it up for reuse. If enemies figure out you're out of ammo, they'll form up and close in. I'm not pretending like this is crazy smart (actually crazy smart AI would be impossible to beat for even adept players), but all of these elements form up a gameplay experience that has great depths.
The clip you're praising is basically an animation reel where Leon looks cool. The irony is astounding.
The post you quoted and refer to doesn't only talk about the graphics and animation,
What exactly do you think gameplay is? It's button pressing that triggers animations. Animation and gameplay are intrinsically linked. How anyone can pretend like audio-visuals don't matter is beyond me. If you've designed a game well, especially a TPS-stealth game, it's vital sensory feedback that should influence player behavior.
Moreover, animations, hitboxes, and mechanics are linked in all games, and are tightly linked if you've done it right. Contextual animation (which RE4R mostly lacks) depend on exactly that - context. And if the context is different, you would hope the function of the following action/animation is different as well. It's not just for the sake of flash. This isn't hard to understand, and if it wasn't about a what's labeled a "cinematic movie game" so-called (how RE4R or fucking MGS5 don't count is beyond me, unless we're throwing in studio/IP biases here), I doubt people would find it so difficult.
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Ogbert
Member
Indeed. Animation is an element of it, but it’s only an element.
I’m not sure why people are getting so bent out of shape. TloU does a very particular type of gameplay better than anyone else, but it’s just that; a ‘type’.
I mean, is the melee better than Elden Ring? In some ways yes; certainly more visceral. But then Souls game place a whole world of boss mechanics, parrying, positioning and timing around their more simple mechanics, to make a much deeper and complicated gameplay experience.
But that takes nothing away from TloU. It does what it does better than anyone else. Some of us just disagree that that type of cinematic 3rd person game represents the most interesting type of gameplay.
EverydayBeast
thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
Combat in third person games is phenomenal, we know CQC was key to metal gear solid games. I count simplicity as a plus.
King Dazzar
Member
MGSV, how did he ever come up with the balloon system? Great game. Wonder how its aged. Maybe I'll revisit when the remaster/remake comes out...
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Audiophile
Gold Member
I believe it had some early motion matching tech, leading to more organic, granular animation paired with solid responsiveness. Can't wait to see what devs achieve when they go heavy on this approach with current gen games.
We could have games that have cinematic animation as good as or better than RDR2 while having the gamey responsiveness of stuff like Death Stranding or MGSV. All while being more contextual with the environment and better implementing physics.
We could have games that have cinematic animation as good as or better than RDR2 while having the gamey responsiveness of stuff like Death Stranding or MGSV. All while being more contextual with the environment and better implementing physics.
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Ogbert
Member
For what it’s worth, I wouldn’t say RE4 remake is better and I couldn’t stand Alan Wake 2.
I think the OP’s post is daft because he’s taking a very small subset of games and holding it up as the gold standard of next generation gameplay.
Very few games are made like TloU. You’re basically looking at Sony in house titles, Alan Wake and Resident Evil. In fact, the title closest to it is God of War. Again, Naughty Dog are the best in class with absolutely impeccable animation and camera work. The encounters are individually crafted and tested to perfection so that the camera follows the player and maintains the tension.
Now, if someone thinks that’s the absolute gold standard of what a video game can achieve then fair enough. I don’t. I don’t even think it’s close.
Bartski
Gold Member
Boss Mog
Member
Pressing one button is not good combat and it never will be. Sleeping Dogs had "contextual animations" too , it also had better combat than TLOU2. The only thing TLOU2 has is the smooth/realistic animations and while that's nice, it doesn't make the combat good.
Chuck Berry
Gold Member
Reminds me of seeing those first few vids of Callisto and we know how that turned out..
I loved it
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Hero_Select
Member
You're welcome, other person with great taste :3
ProtoByte
Member
"One button"?
1) Are you trolling dude? In any encounter, you're going to be using Square, X, O, R2, L2, R1, L1 Triangle and the d-pad - ie the whole goddamned controller in combat and stealth. What is this?
2) Not sure why contextual animations are in quotes. And TLOU's are far more advanced than anything Sleeping Dogs does. Simple fact.
3) I don't know how you quote that message and still come away with the bolded.
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Wasn’t Callisto free recently on one of the services? If so, I wonder if it’ll still be there once I’m done with baldurs gate 3…that game feels like it’s gonna last a hell of a long time.
FoxMcChief
Gold Member
In all honesty, RE4: Quest Edition might be the best controlling game I have ever played. It’s fast paced, shooting is top notch, inventory control is even easier, and the updated puzzles that allow for players to have to interact with them is way more immersive.
RE4:QE surpassed the original and is easily in my top 5 games of all time.
RE4:QE surpassed the original and is easily in my top 5 games of all time.
Ogbert
Member
As an aside, I’m replaying the remastered version and one scene, in particular, stuck with me.
Very near the beginning, we learn that the night before, Dinah has kissed Ellie and there was a bit of a scene. The bartender, usefully referred to as ‘a bigot’, is rude.
Anyway, the very next day and the first time you control Ellie, he attempts to apologise and makes her some sandwiches. She dismisses them and, once again, refers to them as ‘bigot sandwiches’.
What an insufferable cunt she is.
Modern politics, modern culture and modern gaming has absolutely no concept of forgiveness. The penny dropped. That’s why everything is so cruel and unpleasant.
Zero forgiveness.
On the plus side, like the frame rate.
Very near the beginning, we learn that the night before, Dinah has kissed Ellie and there was a bit of a scene. The bartender, usefully referred to as ‘a bigot’, is rude.
Anyway, the very next day and the first time you control Ellie, he attempts to apologise and makes her some sandwiches. She dismisses them and, once again, refers to them as ‘bigot sandwiches’.
What an insufferable cunt she is.
Modern politics, modern culture and modern gaming has absolutely no concept of forgiveness. The penny dropped. That’s why everything is so cruel and unpleasant.
Zero forgiveness.
On the plus side, like the frame rate.
Eiknarf
Banned
The hits and the melee combat for Callisto are pretty realistic too. You can feel the brutality as well. Just not as unique as TLOU PII
Neff
Member
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
Theres simply not enough talent in this industry. Everyone wants to be in Hollywood. Gaming culture and stereotypes have killed the desire to be a.... Video Game Developer.
Theres simply not enough talent in this industry. Everyone wants to be in Hollywood. Gaming culture and stereotypes have killed the desire to be a....
Video Game Developer. Every AAA game looks the same. AAA Games take 5-7 years to make. Everything is a fucking secret. Gaming culture is an embarrassment. There hasn't been any new game mechanics/formulas introduced in AAA gaming since the PS360 era. The PS360 era was the last time game design...
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Kumomeme
Member
MGSV, how did he ever come up with the balloon system? Great game. Wonder how its aged. Maybe I'll revisit when the remaster/remake comes out...
the idea is since MGS Peacewalker which is on PSP. it is actually taken from real things in real life. something CIA/US/UK Army experimented back before and it is explained in the game codec conversation.
Kojima seems to be already has rough idea or vision over the game atleast since that game release and with MGSV, he might be finally able to fullfill the full vision over the game combat system.
Lethal01
Member
The guy is saying sorry to appease his wife, You don't gotta forgive everyone just cause the community forced them to say sorry.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
It's so good.
MasterDerico
Member
Nobody was saying that coding enemies to spot you from a distance is difficult but it's a lot more realistic than this for example
You seem to be hung up on how difficult it was to code things like flanking, cooperation, enemies hearing you reload, spotting you from a distant, telling teammates your location etc, rather than how believable it is at replicating a human enemy team.
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I thought the same thing during that scene and felt bad for the guy. I think it was meant to show her character, that she doesn't forgive and forget and at the end of the game she learns to the hard way.
Generic
Member
RE6 had way better combat than RE4R but that game was hated even before its release. This is why we can't have nice things.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
For me, any kind of stealth games where the AI is braindead with the worst eyesight ever will never be good gameplay. Your clip is a perfect example of what I write earlier about a character ducking behind something and the enemy cant see despite being about 6 ft tall (angle of vision) that there's something moving and their head or backpack is sticking out. I'd rather have onslaughts of berserker rage COD spamming endless enemy soldiers. At least they know where you are and shoot at you and toss grenades. They dont go into any kind of stealth mode in games just because you hid behind a garage can for 30 seconds long enough suddenly the red alert disappears.
I totally get it that for a stealthy game, the game has to allow gamers a chance to proceed without it being 100% code red, but for a game mechanic that is supposed to be realistic, it's actually kind of stupid.
Splinter Cell is just as stupid. When I played SC Conviction on 360, you can be 30 ft away from a couple baddies. Shoot one and the other guy acts like an idiot. What should really happen is the second the alive guy sees a dead buddy, the alarm should sound for the entire level and all enemies on high alert patrolling. Beat the level and then it resets as it'll be a new location.
DeathGuise
Member
Doom was better and it came out four years before
Vick
Member
It was hated because of many reasons, including going full retard with the action and kitsch in a time people were craving for a return to horror. Some of those QTE sections were beyond embarassing.
And in terms of action mechanics yes the game is unbelievably good (S tier really), but when it came to staples of the series like the slow paced moody exploration the visual feedback in that game was absolutely atrocious due to that awful feeling/looking walking, huge downgrade compared to both RE4 and RE5. The game was also not nearly visually polished enough.
TLOU came just a year later and was everything I missed and wanted from Resident Evil 6, and more.
Nowadays when Resident Evil 2 Remake alone is able to fully satisfy my survival horror and Resident Evil needs, I dig RE6 for many different reasons including its story which I don't mind at all.
I would surely buy a Remake of that one, assuming they wouldn't downgrade its superb mechanics.
Generic
Member
Vick
Member
Well, maybe now when we're surrounded by true Resident Evil games, but surely not in 2012."going full retard with the action and kitsch"
But that was the best part
This is what we wanted at the time from the series:
Eiknarf
Banned
I’ve read time and time again that ILL is reportedly not real. It’s just video. It’s another “THE DAY AFTER”
GymWolf
Member
Lol free flow arkham style combat is a plague and mostly used by lazy devs that can't come up with their own combat system, it isn't better than almost anything.
Mindless and spectacular maybe but not more than that.
GymWolf
Member
People trashing other games writing when the game has a bigot sandwitch line is beyond hilarious, and she is even more edgie and annoying than the first game yes.
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ricardo_sousa11
Member
TLOU 1 on PS3 still has better animations and combat than most games today.
IMO TLOU 1+2 + RDR2 are on a completely different league than any other game out there.
IMO TLOU 1+2 + RDR2 are on a completely different league than any other game out there.
Guilty_AI
Member
If we're talking about believability, TLoU2 still isn't believable as with some examples i gave out earlier. And thats still not counting other elements of the combat like enemies getting stun locked when hit with bullets or getting "surprised" when spotting you instead of just immediatly punching or reaching for their guns, both things that games do for the sake of the "fun" while forsaking authenticity.
A lot of these elements suggest the game isn't interested in realism at all, which makes tweaking values such as being able to see further just seem out-of-place and a cheap way to artificially drive difficulty up.
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Eiknarf
Banned
People incorrectly assume we want realism or believability in our games, but that is often times the opposite of the truth.
If we wanted realism, then why do you have slow motion, bullet time, or focus?
If we wanted realism, then why do you have split screen, subtitles, and band-aids fixing major health issues, and instant health growth…etc
That doesn’t happen in real life
If we wanted realism then why do you have a musical score accompanying what’s happening? That doesn’t happen when I go into the basement or the woods etc
If we wanted realism and believability you should not be able to respawn or reload at checkpoints after you die.
If we wanted realism then we should have our characters doing their taxes, getting changed in real time, brushing their teeth, going to the bathroom and wiping their ass
Guilty_AI
Member
Tbf there are some games where realistic combat is preferable. Games like SWAT, ARMA or (classic) Rainbow Six do often forsake certain "gamey" elements. In none of them for example we see enemies getting stun locked when shot at.
But TLoU2 isn't one of them, its as gamey as it can be. The people who claim this game is better because its realistic or "grounded" simply do not know what they're talking about.
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Couldn't disagree more. The first video you showed is path finding failing, happens in literally every other game and is not an indication that they didn't aim for a more realistic human enemy interactions. Are there things designed for fun in the game, sure. I don't know why though you have to keep bilittle everything. Especially when somebody lists things in the game that make the AI good to them you bilittle one point they liked as if the devs should have solved a Millennium Prize problem when doing it.
Guilty_AI
Member
I said before, i don't think these problems are bad nor i'm bellittling the game for them precisely because they're common. I bring them up to counter-argue this idea this game somehow has amazing AI which just isn't true.
I also brought up other elements like enemies getting stunned by shots or unrealistic gore to show the game has every intention to be gamey, that the idea this is somehow better than others because its "realistic" or "grounded" is also false.
To put it simply, i'm saying this is a fairly normal stealth action game as far as gameplay is concerned.
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The saying "more than the sum of its parts" comes to mind especially with the nitpicking on one good point of many.