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[Ulysses 31]

I'd like to know more about the TLOU universe, instead it's all about the revenge obsession of Ellie and the Abby side story which is practically a plagiarism to the last area of Metro Exodus (really embarrassing how they copied it); practically a massive bullshit of unnecessary rhetoric without nothing of interesting to relate.

Can you expand on that? Never made that connection before(How the events in dead city relate to revenge?)

 

[Relique]

The whole story of Lev and his sister flew all the way passed you, I see.

No. That was easily the best part of this game. It's a small section of a larger game though. My problems were with the main plot, but I didn't say the story didn't have great moments/sections in it.

 

[Relique]

Joel wasn't some random person. In their eyes, Joel ruined any chance of making a vaccine to cure humanity, and that reason alone would give them enough motivation to go with Abby to kill Joel. They're not just random soldiers, they're also ex-Fireflies and a few of them trained under Abby's father to become surgeons.

Nora: "Think about what he did. How many people are dead because of him."


The cure, immunity, infected plot was never sidelined. You play through Ellie's story thinking the hope for an actual cure was lost because Joel killed the only one who could make the vaccine. This is right after Nora tells Ellie that there are "no more Fireflies".

During Abby's story, you find out that Owen wants to follow a rumor to find the Fireflies. This is why he's repairing the boat, this is what will potentially turn out to be the link to curing mankind, and that's the find the Fireflies.

Abby is the only one that can link Ellie and the Fireflies together.

I must have missed something. Who in that room was old enough to be a firefly or to be trained by a surgeon before Abby's father was killed? They were all teenagers or younger by the time he died. Owen, Mel, Manny, Abby, were all early twenties during the game. Nora was maybe even younger than 20. There were two other guys that whose names I don't remember who were also in that age group. These kids all cared about that surgeon enough to go on this manhunt for years apparently.

Some were fireflies after? Ok fine. I can buy the motivations of Owen for example was a diehard firefly and who connects with Abby on a personal level. The rest of these people searching for a dude who may be dead across the US for years just didn't make sense to me. Why would they do this? Because it cost humanity a cure? If that is their motivation it should have been better developed. Like you said the only line that stands out there is "think of what he did. how many people are dead because of him", and this could just mean just the people that were killed during the Ellie breakout so I don't buy it. Besides, Ellie was right there and no one seemed to bat an eye about this cure, or trying to fulfill what the fireflies were trying to do. At least by what we can see, the remaining survivors are much better defended and organized than any group us players were exposed to during TLOU1.

I am not saying this is all completely implausible. I am just saying it is sloppy and unrealistic. Very many dubious motivations. Pacing and order of events was all over the place.

 

[Neff]

The story trying to say that he deserved to die is the problem.

He totally did though.

in terms of the actual canon of the narrative, I think even TLOU1 does a better job at that.

Absolutely. TLoU2 shows Joel in his best light by far. TLoU1 Joel is an asshole.

It really is manipulation 101.

That's basically what storytelling does.

First game: Not good.

Second game: Good.

First game: Good.

Second game: Great.

 

[DForce]

I must have missed something. Who in that room was old enough to be a firefly or to be trained by a surgeon before Abby's father was killed? They were all teenagers or younger by the time he died. Owen, Mel, Manny, Abby, were all early twenties during the game. Nora was maybe even younger than 20. There were two other guys that whose names I don't remember who were also in that age group. These kids all cared about that surgeon enough to go on this manhunt for years apparently.

Isaac refers to Abby and her friends as the "Salt Lake Crew", meaning they were the ones associated with Fireflies in Utah.

Manny

It doesn't say specifically, but this is likely Manny standing over Jerry's dead both with over when Abby finds her father dead on the floor.

Mel

In Mel's note to Abby, Mel says that her father has been an amazing mentor.

Abby! I wanted to say thanks again!

Your dad has been an amazing mentor as I transition to the more complicated procedures. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you vouching for me.


I think we should grab some booze and get wasted ASAP.

xo
Mel

Abby tells Mel that she was her father's best student.

Abby: "Well, for what it's worth, my dad always said you were his best student"

It's also believed that the person's voice on this recording is Mel.

Some were fireflies after? Ok fine. I can buy the motivations of Owen for example was a diehard firefly and who connects with Abby on a personal level.

Owen didn't want to kill Joel. He only went along with it because that's what Abby wanted. Right before Joel's death, Owen tried to convince Abby to turn back. You could even see it in his face during the Christmas flashback scene that he wasn't fully on board with going to Jackson.

The rest of these people searching for a dude who may be dead across the US for years just didn't make sense to me. Why would they do this? Because it cost humanity a cure? If that is their motivation it should have been better developed. Like you said the only line that stands out there is "think of what he did. how many people are dead because of him", and this could just mean just the people that were killed during the Ellie breakout so I don't buy it. Besides, Ellie was right there and no one seemed to bat an eye about this cure, or trying to fulfill what the fireflies were trying to do. At least by what we can see, the remaining survivors are much better defended and organized than any group us players were exposed to during TLOU1.

I am not saying this is all completely implausible. I am just saying it is sloppy and unrealistic. Very many dubious motivations. Pacing and order of events was all over the place.

As I explained earlier, they're the Salt Lake Crew, meaning they're all ex-Fireflies. Being directly linked to Abby, her father, and the Fireflies in Utah, they should be enough motivation for them to go after Joel. We already saw what happened at the end of TLOU and there's no reason to go into further development since people are aware of what Joel did.


In the first game, David went after Ellie and Joel because they killed some of his people are the college campus. There was almost no build-up at all.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

It was an incredible game.

But then I'm not an internet edgelord, so I'm secure enough to be able to confidently admit it despite much of the gaming media holding the same opinion about the game.

 

[Relique]

Isaac refers to Abby and her friends as the "Salt Lake Crew", meaning they were the ones associated with Fireflies in Utah.

Manny

It doesn't say specifically, but this is likely Manny standing over Jerry's dead both with over when Abby finds her father dead on the floor.

Mel

In Mel's note to Abby, Mel says that her father has been an amazing mentor.


Abby tells Mel that she was her father's best student.

Abby: "Well, for what it's worth, my dad always said you were his best student"

It's also believed that the person's voice on this recording is Mel.

Owen didn't want to kill Joel. He only went along with it because that's what Abby wanted. Right before Joel's death, Owen tried to convince Abby to turn back. You could even see it in his face during the Christmas flashback scene that he wasn't fully on board with going to Jackson.





As I explained earlier, they're the Salt Lake Crew, meaning they're all ex-Fireflies. Being directly linked to Abby, her father, and the Fireflies in Utah, they should be enough motivation for them to go after Joel. We already saw what happened at the end of TLOU and there's no reason to go into further development since people are aware of what Joel did.


In the first game, David went after Ellie and Joel because they killed some of his people are the college campus. There was almost no build-up at all.

Fair points here... And I did take note of some of these but didn't realize that was Manny in that scene. I do still think some of these should have been presented sooner, same with some Ellie/Joel scenes. By the time we get shown this it's all lost in the noise of everything else going on. By then we all felt about Joel's scene one way or another and there was no going back.

I am sorry but even with these connections it still just didn't add up for me in the end. It's my personal opinion that people won't behave this way. Revenge is a powerful motivator but we are talking about a years long manhunt, treading impossible grounds where inhaling some spores could mean death, to get at a man who may very well be dead. Being someone's student, or a member of a long gone group, or banging someone hell bent on revenge just wasn't strong enough for me to buy the apparent grudge that all these people held. In the end they stumble on him and Tommy by sheer luck and those two are way out of character and trusting. Maybe the years of safety behind a wall dulled their senses? Possibly...

While it all adds up neatly I am just saying this could all have been done way way better. This game really felt like it was missing a major plotline to drive the whole thing forward instead of just being a pure revenge story. The payoff in the end didn't even live up to what this game was all about up to that point. It's a beautiful mess and I don't regret my time there but it was a major disappointment in the end for me. I am not the only who feels this way, so there's gotta be something there.

 

[bit_blaster]

It was an incredible game.

But then I'm not an internet edgelord, so I'm secure enough to be able to confidently admit it despite much of the gaming media holding the same opinion about the game.

Not liking a game for not living up to expectations is being an "edgelord" now? Seems pretty insecure having to dismiss valid criticisms in such a petty passive aggressive way.

The gaming media is more or less the extension of the AAA industry's marketing department, not really much credibility there to begin with.

 

[Javthusiast]

Joel's Death:
One of the main criticism about the game was the death of Joel. In the contained story that they were telling, it made a lot of sense, and it was executed well, but like I said, this particular story should've been made into other game. I believe that Joel should have died defending Ellie from some huge danger, not from being the target of revenge.

And there it is. ''Muh Joel should have a heroic death instead''

Did you all cry about Robb Stark and Ned dying unceremoniously?

 

[TheInfamousKira]

And there it is. ''Muh Joel should have a heroic death instead''

Did you all cry about Robb Stark and Ned dying unceremoniously?

OH MY FUCKING GOD

The only thing I cried about was you spoiling Game of Thrones unmarked that I just decided to watch four minutes before reading this thread! The only thing that would be more of affront to my character would be if the show was fantastic until the last season and then randomly sucked. But lightning can't strike twice, right? I thought you were talking about Avengers Endgame or something, what's with all these Stark's having shit luck in visual media? I smell a targeted attack by the media. The Last of Us Part III, Joel's father's brother somehow got infected and survived because of a rare antibody, and the entire game is about Abby trying to butcher his old decrepit body that's being kept alive by machines in a fortified Texan base. The kicker? His name is Stark Miller.

 

[EDMIX]

Yeah, I never got the hate for Joel dying. I thought it was the most telegraphed thing for the sequel, aside from pushing Ellie's sexuality further into the forefront. Just things that were GOING TO happen, and made sense. I don't agree with the placement of it, though. There are a lot of things I feel ruin the pacing of the game, and I don't even have a good suggestion for how to fix it. I'm not one of those "alternate between an Ellie chapter and an Abby chapter," types. But something about the flow of events just doesn't feel satisfying to me.

I'm 100% ok with the placement of it literally based on you not being ok with it lol

You are not suppose to be ok with it basically. They want you to feel cheated, they want to feel this will be another Joel and Ellie adventure and that everything will be ok. Rarely in that life do they get to check out on their own terms, at old age peacefully etc and I think they game did a great job with that. When it first happened, I felt like "damn, I wish it happened at the end" or "damn I wish we had more time with Joel" ...well....that is what they want you to feel. Joel isn't real, this not a real human being, so its hard to really drive that emotion home in a video game, but the nailed it well and you now get to feel what Ellie feels.

You wanted another adventure with both of them.

You wanted more time.

You wanted them to say their good byes and end on great terms.

Well.....so did Ellie, you now feel what she feels and I think it was done fucking amazing. Its correct to disagree with how he dies at first as death isn't something most will be eager to have happen to them or a loved one lol So of course everyone will be like "die at the end" or "die saving a bus full of nuns" lol Life isn't fare that way most times.

Those are all well beloved games with little to no controversy to their stories despite their content.

Oh boy, killing monsters lol foh

All the examples you used are easy cop outs.

ie he dies at the end, oh a HORSE DIED ohhh boy, oh MONSTERS died.... they are easy as shit cushioned "tragedies". I love all the games you listed btw, but none of them really show any real adult drama and are very comic book and light as shit in nature.

Oh at the ENDING of Mafia 2, oh the ENDING of SoTC or the ENDING of RDRD2, yea fucking cushioned training wheel shit lol


Neil put the story first before any one character and allowed that love for that character to drive the narrative of the sequel and likely the rest of the series instead of some dumbass shit like "oh he die at the end bro" just to appease softass gamers.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Game had good gameplay that was drastically superior to the first game.

I also respect that it took some chances.

However, the game failed to make me give a shit about Abby or Lev.

It also made me hate Elle.

So good job....I guess.

 

[TheInfamousKira]

I'm 100% ok with the placement of it literally based on you not being ok with it lol

You are not suppose to be ok with it basically. They want you to feel cheated, they want to feel this will be another Joel and Ellie adventure and that everything will be ok. Rarely in that life do they get to check out on their own terms, at old age peacefully etc and I think they game did a great job with that. When it first happened, I felt like "damn, I wish it happened at the end" or "damn I wish we had more time with Joel" ...well....that is what they want you to feel. Joel isn't real, this not a real human being, so its hard to really drive that emotion home in a video game, but the nailed it well and you now get to feel what Ellie feels.

You wanted another adventure with both of them.

You wanted more time.

You wanted them to say their good byes and end on great terms.

Well.....so did Ellie, you now feel what she feels and I think it was done fucking amazing. Its correct to disagree with how he dies at first as death isn't something most will be eager to have happen to them or a loved one lol So of course everyone will be like "die at the end" or "die saving a bus full of nuns" lol Life isn't fare that way most times.

Yeah, I can see what you mean with that point. I guess that was successful emotional manipulation, contradicting my earlier post about "seeing the man behind the curtain," I feel like the emotional manipulation is a touch heavy handed at times (like the situation with Bear, lmao) but you pointed out a fantastic use of it. I didn't even really notice how the placement could be used thematically.

And none of this is to say that I disliked TLOU2. I'm lukewarm to it, because I like the visceral atmosphere, the setting, the characters. Like I said, I enjoyed Abby's portion more than Ellie's even, it's just that stark contrast between what works and what doesn't for me, because what worked worked REALLY well. TLOU1 was so highly regarded that the sequel really didn't have a chance with some people, though. Making beloved characters always makes death of the author a risk, because people's attachment to the characters makes it feel personal to them, and a sequel runs the risk of ruining the consumer's headcanon, I guess.

Thanks for the well thought out reply, my dude.

 

[Whitecrow]

Is a game more interested in lecturing you about diversity and morals (or flexing about it), than telling a compelling story and most importantly, respecting the fans.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Oh boy, killing monsters lol foh

All the examples you used are easy cop outs.

ie he dies at the end, oh a HORSE DIED ohhh boy, oh MONSTERS died.... they are easy as shit cushioned "tragedies". I love all the games you listed btw, but none of them really show any real adult drama and are very comic book and light as shit in nature.

Oh at the ENDING of Mafia 2, oh the ENDING of SoTC or the ENDING of RDRD2, yea fucking cushioned training wheel shit lol


Neil put the story first before any one character and allowed that love for that character to drive the narrative of the sequel and likely the rest of the series instead of some dumbass shit like "oh he die at the end bro" just to appease softass gamers.

You know man, i genuinely don't know what to tell you.

From thinking monsters and animals dying can't be as impactful or significan't as a human death, or considering a game with generic revenge plot number 14 + loads of gory action a "real adult drama", or that somehow having tragedy at the end is "cushioning" it rather than a result of taking the time to develop things as any good writer would do...

The only impression i'm getting here is that you spare 0 brain cells to any story you see.
And I can't really criticize that since actually thinking about fiction you're reading/watching/playing isn't really a life-essential skill or anything.

 

[EDMIX]

Is a game more interested in lecturing you about diversity and morals (or flexing about it), than telling a compelling story and most importantly, respecting the fans.

None of that is really happening in the last of us 2 in regards to lecturing or anything even remotely like that...

I mean you're trying to tell us that a character that was already gay in the first game and a game based on the United States already having multiple demographics as being more important in a game that took over seven years to make that over 30 hours long but the problem with this argument is that it's not 30 hours of talking about the thing you're talking about lol

So I'm not sure how important it must be if it's also not the actual main topic for 30 hours lol

And I don't see anything in this game as being disrespectful to fans because that's the argue no fucking character is allowed to die or something lol I don't see any character as dying as being disrespectful to fans because I would argue trying to keep a character alive to appease fans might be even worse that's the type of dumb crap you might see from EA or Ubisoft basically milking a fucking game to death and never actually having any real finality, climax, conclusion so they could keep selling more copies of the same fucking game

So when a company happens to have nine or twelve games what the same character and they never seem to die Trust me it's not because they "respect fans" as much as they just want to keep milking something.

Bought both games day 1, loved 2 even more and never felt anything like disrespect.

Guilty_AI Nah bud, the fact that all you have are animals and da monster died only proves the point of how rare such story telling is in gaming to reach to "an animal died bro".

"The only impression i'm getting here is that you spare 0 brain cells to any story you see" Stay mad. Insulting isn't going to change shit here, you are only reaching to this level of fighting with people on here cause its really hard to make it sound like a fucking monster and an animal are on the same level of what we got from The Last Of Us 2, point stands, its rare in gaming to have that level of drama man, especially when you have fucking reach to point of telling us about some fucking monsters dying. Thats no knock to SoTC btw, simply that the points you made prove the point I'm making even more.... its so rare, you out here talking about animals and monsters and shit dying......

good luck.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Guilty_AI Nah bud, the fact that all you have are animals and da monster died only proves the point of how rare such story telling is in gaming to reach to "an animal died bro".

No, i didn't use just animal examples. I even included a video of a Sean being brutally headshoted at a random moment.

"The only impression i'm getting here is that you spare 0 brain cells to any story you see" Stay mad. Insulting isn't going to change shit here,

Wasn't really meant as an insult. I too have many things i spare 0 brain cells to, and i can't say fictional stories are important enough for it to be a bad thing.

 

[Bonfires Down]

Fair points here... And I did take note of some of these but didn't realize that was Manny in that scene. I do still think some of these should have been presented sooner, same with some Ellie/Joel scenes. By the time we get shown this it's all lost in the noise of everything else going on. By then we all felt about Joel's scene one way or another and there was no going back.

I am sorry but even with these connections it still just didn't add up for me in the end. It's my personal opinion that people won't behave this way. Revenge is a powerful motivator but we are talking about a years long manhunt, treading impossible grounds where inhaling some spores could mean death, to get at a man who may very well be dead. Being someone's student, or a member of a long gone group, or banging someone hell bent on revenge just wasn't strong enough for me to buy the apparent grudge that all these people held. In the end they stumble on him and Tommy by sheer luck and those two are way out of character and trusting. Maybe the years of safety behind a wall dulled their senses? Possibly...

While it all adds up neatly I am just saying this could all have been done way way better. This game really felt like it was missing a major plotline to drive the whole thing forward instead of just being a pure revenge story. The payoff in the end didn't even live up to what this game was all about up to that point. It's a beautiful mess and I don't regret my time there but it was a major disappointment in the end for me. I am not the only who feels this way, so there's gotta be something there.

It was only Abby who was obsessed with finding Joel for years. The others agreed once they knew where he likely was, but even then it is said that they would turn back once they saw how large the settlement was. Really, Ellie going after Abby in a huge well guarded city where intruders are shot on sight is way more insane.

Abby just happening on Joel is a major "coincidence" for sure, but I just take it on the chin as lots of games and movies rely on similar stuff to drive the story. I agree that there are several weaknesses in the TLOU2 story, but considering the lack of game narratives this ambitious and well presented, I'm still going to applaud it.

 

[Batiman]

I gave up a little after taking control of Abby. Just boring all around

 

[EverydayBeast]

The thing about Last of Us 2 is it comes from a AAA organization but lacks the depth of a true open world game and I love the characters (Ellie, Tommy, Abby etc.) but at the end of the day it's a memorable game.

 

[Woggleman]

The thing about Last of Us 2 is it comes from a AAA organization but lacks the depth of a true open world game and I love the characters (Ellie, Tommy, Abby etc.) but at the end of the day it's a memorable game.

That would make sense it is not an open world game and to me the open world part is the weakest part.

 

[bit_blaster]

EDMIX the problem with TLOU2 is that the story isn't about how life can be unfair at times and how we can learn or improve from it, but rather its more a meta story about how as a gamer you should feel bad for indulging in heroic power fantasies because the author feels there is no good or evil, you saving lives can be potentially harmful to others, so its all relativistic and you might as well just let everything burn. Joel's death didn't anger fans because it happened too quick or happened at all, its because his death was essentially a middle finger to fans for thinking he was a hero for overcoming his daughter's death and saving Ellie.

The entire arc of both games is essentially that humanity and parenthood are selfish and evil. Joel rediscovering his humanity after suppressing it over his daughter's death is what lead to Ellie's misery in the second game. Its selfish to protect your adoptive daughter from death because you might tick off the offspring of someone trying to hurt her because "muh cycle of violence". The game resorts to the most pathetic emotional manipulation to get you to sympathize with Abby even going as far as having you kill her dog, but it actually made you dislike her even more since shes still objectively in the wrong. As much as I hate to praise the movie, but Spiderman 3 honestly handled its revenge story much better with Harry Osborne's character, yes Spiderman killed his Dad, but that doesn't give him the moral high ground to get revenge since his Dad was objectively evil by harming the defenseless, which he then realizes and atones for with his sacrifice at the end.

As for the woke stuff, I thought the developer's racial/religious chauvinism was nauseating with the whole Synagogue part likening LGBT to Jews surviving the Holocaust, despite what the Torah says about the former lol, and its very convenient that it took a woman with the body of Bane and her multi racial gang to kill the cis white protagonist everyone identified with in a very implausible fashion compared to how smart Joel was in the first game.

 

[DForce]

EDMIX the problem with TLOU2 is that the story isn't about how life can be unfair at times and how we can learn or improve from it, but rather its more a meta story about how as a gamer you should feel bad for indulging in heroic power fantasies because the author feels there is no good or evil, you saving lives can be potentially harmful to others, so its all relativistic and you might as well just let everything burn. Joel's death didn't anger fans because it happened too quick or happened at all, its because his death was essentially a middle finger to fans for thinking he was a hero for overcoming his daughter's death and saving Ellie.

The real problem is that people don't want to accept that Joel was not a hero for saving Ellie's life. This is why you see so many people try so hard to convince themselves and others that the Fireflies were these horrible people. The reality is that Jerry wanted to create a vaccine knowing it would kill Ellie. The decision to go forward with this was in fact Marlene's idea. Marlene is not some random person who didn't know Ellie, she was Ellie's guardian and her mother's best friend.


Joel was given a decision to give Ellie back to Marlene and he shot her instead. Joel knew Ellie wanted to give her life to Fireflies, and he made sure that didn't happen. This is not a hero. This is a person who did love Ellie, but it was also done for selfish reasons.

 

[Danjin44]

The real problem is that people don't want to accept that Joel was not a hero for saving Ellie's life. This is why you see so many people try so hard to convince themselves and others that the Fireflies were these horrible people. The reality is that Jerry wanted to create a vaccine knowing it would kill Ellie. The decision to go forward with this was in fact Marlene's idea. Marlene is not some random person who didn't know Ellie, she was Ellie's guardian and her mother's best friend.

Joel was no hero but Fireflies were no saint either, they were chasing impossible dream. 25 year after outbreak, vaccine is kind of pointless at that point and bigger issue is Fireflies are small group there is no way they have resource to distribute Vaccine to everyone to "save humanity".

I 100% agree with what Joel did, I'm not gonna let my loved one die for sake fantasy dream.

I would even go as far as even without Vaccine humans still could survive and thrive if they just stop killing each other.

 

[bit_blaster]

The real problem is that people don't want to accept that Joel was not a hero for saving Ellie's life. This is why you see so many people try so hard to convince themselves and others that the Fireflies were these horrible people. The reality is that Jerry wanted to create a vaccine knowing it would kill Ellie. The decision to go forward with this was in fact Marlene's idea. Marlene is not some random person who didn't know Ellie, she was Ellie's guardian and her mother's best friend.


Joel was given a decision to give Ellie back to Marlene and he shot her instead. Joel knew Ellie wanted to give her life to Fireflies, and he made sure that didn't happen. This is not a hero. This is a person who did love Ellie, but it was also done for selfish reasons.

The fireflies were thought of as evil because they used force to try and experiment on Ellie. I haven't played the first in years, but I don't remember Ellie having a say, I just remember Marlene saying "its what she'd want" which could just be her projecting onto Ellie. Joel was worried because he knows she was going to die and that there wasn't a guarantee a cure would be found. You could see him as selfish, but hes not inherently wrong for protecting his adoptive daughter from harm. So why am I supposed to sympathize with Abby when her whole motive is just revenge rather than fighting for the greater good?

 

[Woggleman]

Neither Joel nor the Fireflies nor Abby are 100% hero or villian and that is where I think some people have a hard time. It is a story where almost everybody has shades of grey and it asks you to decide instead of laying it out all neat for you. Everybody is a human with human motivations. If Joel had never known Ellie chances or he would have agreed with the Fireflies and if Lev was found out to be immune Abby would do the same thing Joel did. It is all about perspective and the fact that who is a hero and villian depends on where you are standing.

 

[Amerikan]

People from red states going batsh*t crazy because there's diversity and *shock* feminism.

 

[Warablo]

The game had major pacing issues while slowly building up to a climax, then flashing back again to play through the whole game again. I bet a lot people kept playing because they wanted to get this game over with, but didn't expect another 12 hours. Way too many flashbacks at the wrong times and incorrect orders. Think they actually blew their secret too early with letting you play as Abby at the start too.

They tried so hard to get you to like Abby, which I ended up liking. While also painting Tommy/Joel and Ellie as bitches. So at the end you don't even know who you like or care who dies. I suspect a lot people hated the rocky Joel and Ellie relationship they tried to establish too.

I liked the game, but thought some of the flashbacks were misplaced and weird. Starting the 2nd half of the game is really hard and annoying, because they built it up like you're getting close to the end then yank it away. Made a lot of older characters unlikeable. Great graphics, gore and world, but the story has issues.

 

[EruditeHobo]

So the game showed you the other side of the story and you didn't like feeling sympathetic.

Yeah, it's like... only the whole point of the game? lol.

If we're calling that kind of thing "manipulation"... well I don't know what to say. Most stories do this; everything is manipulative in this way, and contrived. Welcome to drama. Holding it up as if it's some narrative flaw is not a compelling argument, that's how stories are told.

 

[DForce]

The fireflies were thought of as evil because they used force to try and experiment on Ellie. I haven't played the first in years, but I don't remember Ellie having a say, I just remember Marlene saying "its what she'd want" which could just be her projecting onto Ellie. Joel was worried because he knows she was going to die and that there wasn't a guarantee a cure would be found. You could see him as selfish, but hes not inherently wrong for protecting his adoptive daughter from harm. So why am I supposed to sympathize with Abby when her whole motive is just revenge rather than fighting for the greater good?

"And that there wasn't a guarantee a cure would be found"


Joel never said this. This is completely made up by fans of the first game. Based on how the story played out, Joel did not save Ellie because there wasn't a guarantee a cure would be found, he only stopped the surgery because he didn't want to see Ellie die.

The fact still remains - Joel and Marlene knew Ellie wanted to sacrifice her life, and that was confirmed by Ellie herself. You don't have to sympathize with a character, but you can't say things like, "Joel knew a cure wasn't guarantee" because Joel didn't say that in either TLOU 1 or 2.

 

[DForce]

Joel was no hero but Fireflies were no saint either, they were chasing impossible dream. 25 year after outbreak, vaccine is kind of pointless at that point and bigger issue is Fireflies are small group there is no way they have resource to distribute Vaccine to everyone to "save humanity".

I 100% agree with what Joel did, I'm not gonna let my loved one die for sake fantasy dream.

I would even go as far as even without Vaccine humans still could survive and thrive if they just stop killing each other.

Impossible based on what?

The probability is not based on your own personal feelings, it's based on where the writers want to take the story. What we know so far is that they were going to make a cure and Joel stopped them. The writers can decide that Ellie will sacrifice herself in TLOU 3 and humanity is saved. Since you don't know where they will take the story, you can't say what would happen in the future based on what we know now and that Joel stopped the Fireflies from making a cure.

 

[Hugare]

I love the game, and what they tried to do with the story, but the devil is in the details

The game seriously needed more heart in some places. There was that scene in the museum, but it was surprisingly lacking in terms of affection between Joel and Ellie.

Like, that scene by the porch in the end: say I LOVE YOU, goddammit. Give a hug. Anything.

I believe that it would have resonated WAY more with me if it had more scenes like that to contrast with the dark themes.

Even Abby had more scenes like those with Lev. "You are my people."

 

[HofT]

In the game's story a vaccine wouldn't save humanity. Too much damage has already been done especially by the time they wanted to kill Ellie and hopefully create one. There is no good or bad guys. Fireflies are an organization with an agenda. Joel, Ellie and Abby are individuals making decisions with their emotions based off what life threw at them.

 

[Ulysses 31]

The fact still remains - Joel and Marlene knew Ellie wanted to sacrifice her life, and that was confirmed by Ellie herself. You don't have to sympathize with a character, but you can't say things like, "Joel knew a cure wasn't guarantee" because Joel didn't say that in either TLOU 1 or 2.

Not when they arrived at the hospital they didn't. They made future plans shortly before.

Ellie's confirmation in part 2 is a retcon because she didn't knew she was going to her death at that hospital in part 1.

 

[Danjin44]

Impossible based on what?

The probability is not based on your own personal feelings, it's based on where the writers want to take the story. What we know so far is that they were going to make a cure and Joel stopped them. The writers can decide that Ellie will sacrifice herself in TLOU 3 and humanity is saved. Since you don't know where they will take the story, you can't say what would happen in the future based on what we know now and that Joel stopped the Fireflies from making a cure.

Based on reality. This game doesn't have some futuristic technology that I'm aware of, it takes government with huge resource and money to make and distribute Vaccine, there is no way in hell small group of Fireflies can pull that off.

 

[DForce]

Not when they arrived at the hospital they didn't. They made future plans shortly before.

Ellie's confirmation in part 2 is a retcon because she didn't knew she was going to her death at that hospital in part 1.

No. Ellie realized Joel lied to her at the end of TLOU 1. She knew what Joel did.

Can't spin it. This was confirmed by Neil years ago that Joel robbed Ellie of her choice. It's a fact, you just have to accept it.

 

[DForce]

Based on reality. This game doesn't have some futuristic technology that I'm aware of, it takes government with huge resource and money to make and distribute Vaccine, there is no way in hell small group of Fireflies can pull that off.

This isn't reality. You can't use this because the writers don't have to adhere to it.

 

[Danjin44]

This isn't reality. You can't use this because the writers don't have to adhere to it.

TLOU world is based on our world with our current tech, the game did nothing to convince me that small group of Fireflies can create and distribute the vaccine.

You can't tell me "they some how can" is the best ND writers can do.

 

[Saber]

TLOU world is based on our world with our current tech, the game did nothing to convince me that small group of Fireflies can create and distribute the vaccine.

You can't tell me "they some how can" is the best ND writers can do.

Frankly Dajin I dunno why do even bother discussing that with him. The very premise of this game is that they live in a very apocaliptic world where they had to do gynastics to survive, constantly guarding themselves from zombies attacks. And yet his discussing technology(note that is supposed to have scarcity of materials, all this impression is given by the first game), as if zombies simply gonna be all patient allow you to take your time with your research.

 

[DForce]

TLOU world is based on our world with our current tech, the game did nothing to convince me that small group of Fireflies can create and distribute the vaccine.

You can't tell me "they some how can" is the best ND writers can do.

Doesn't have to convince you. With Abby going to the Fireflies and Ellie being immune, they're likely going to end the trilogy with the Fireflies creating a vaccine. This is based on what they teased at the end of TLOU Part II and we have no idea where they're going to take the story.

With that being said, they don't have to follow "real world" science because they didn't with the infected.

 

[Ulysses 31]

No. Ellie realized Joel lied to her at the end of TLOU 1. She knew what Joel did.

Can't spin it. This was confirmed by Neil years ago that Joel robbed Ellie of her choice. It's a fact, you just have to accept it.

Nonsense, she only knows Joel is lying about something, she doesn't know about the wild west show, big difference.

The Fireflies robber her of choice too, who's to say she would've been OK with dying in those conditions? The Ellie of part 2 is not in a position for good judgement of the matter with her bitterness and missing information.

 

[DForce]

Nonsense, she only knows Joel is lying about something, she doesn't know about the wild west show, big difference.

The Fireflies robber her of choice too, who's to say she would've been OK with dying in those conditions? The Ellie of part 2 is not in a position for good judgement of the matter with her bitterness and missing information.

Who am I to believe? You or the person who wrote the story of the game?

Your opinion is irrelevant.

 

[Danjin44]

Doesn't have to convince you. With Abby going to the Fireflies and Ellie being immune, they're likely going to end the trilogy with the Fireflies creating a vaccine. This is based on what they teased at the end of TLOU Part II and we have no idea where they're going to take the story.

With that being said, they don't have to follow "real world" science because they didn't with the infected.

Then I can't take their world seriously if their world cant follow proper logic. In game like NieR we know how people came cross the tech that allows them separate soul from body, the game has fantasy elements but it still follows proper logic, that how they make a believable world.

 

[Ulysses 31]

Who am I to believe? You or the person who wrote the story of the game?

Your opinion is irrelevant.

Death of the Author. He can say a lot of things but I go by the info in the games.

 

[DilWSTS]

isnt the defense that if you dont love this game your a sexist. I thought this game was poor story telling wise. The best part of the game was the free roam section in the city. All went down hill from there. Characters making idiotic decisions or changing their minds with the snap of a finger

 

[DForce]

Then I can't take their world seriously if their world cant follow proper logic. In game like NieR we know how people came cross the tech that allows them separate soul from body, the game has fantasy elements but it still follows proper logic, that how they make a believable world.

There are infected humans who are basically zombies.

That goes against real world logic. You can't refuse to accept a cure, but accept the concept of infected humans. And don't say it's based on real life Cordyceps because it wouldn't help your case since it would be impossible for humans, even to survive.

 

[DForce]

Death of the Author. He can say a lot of things but I go by the info in the games.

Being in denial isn't going to help your case, dude. lol

 

[Danjin44]

There are infected humans who are basically zombies.

That goes against real world logic. You can't refuse to accept a cure, but accept the concept of infected humans. And don't say it's based on real life Cordyceps because it wouldn't help your case since it would be impossible for humans, even to survive.

So......you are telling we should just "believe" these small group of Fireflies somehow can create a vaccine and distribute to all people and save humanity with no explanation how?

If thats the case then thats poor story writing and world building.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

There was no sunshine/roses, happy ending riding off into the sunset with this game. Everything about this experience for me I questioned the characters and their motivations. In the beginning I hated Abby and loved Ellie and in the end I didn't want Abby dead, nor did I like her. Ellie for me in the beginning was the hero and in the end I thought she was a bit of an asshole. Joel probably deserved that hole in one on the 18th course. So everything for me was an emotional roller coaster in terms of how I felt towards characters.

To be honest this is my assessment of this experience. The game left me with more questions than answers and the indifferent feeling towards some of the characters and I love it for that. No other game has made me feel this way and also no other game has made my partner actively watch me play it because the story has gripped her as well. Now she's looking forward to the TV series.

I hope we get more AAA games like this.

 

[DForce]

So......you are telling we should just "believe" these small group of Fireflies somehow can create a vaccine and distribute to all people and save humanity with no explanation how?

If thats the case then thats poor story writing and world building.

Notice how you ignored the entire concept of infected humans turning into zombies?


I don't believe Ellie could perform surgery on Joel in TLOU 1, but she did it. If this was based on reality, there would be no infected or Jerry would've known that he couldn't create a vaccine.

The list goes on.

Acceptance is hard because you believed in your theory that is nothing more than fan fiction.