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[DForce]

So a few random plot points suddenly implies the game is about Joel? That is a tremendous stretch, and is undone absolutely by the manner of his death and the hours (and I mean hours) spent with Abby vilifying both him and Ellie. This would be like me saying TLOU is about Tess, and listing off her random plot points from the first. Sorry, but no. Joel clearly takes a backseat to Abby whom ND desperately wants the audience to like, but fails to write a cohesive narrative to do so. I can see what they were going for, but the execution was absolutely terrible.

Spent hours vilifying both him and Ellie?

This is what I mean by people who generally are the most critical do not understand the story at all.

How does Abby spend hours vilifying Ellie when her second encounter is at the theatre? She doesn't even bring her up in the conversation until that very point in the story.

Abby doesn't even mention Joel after they made it to the FOB (excluding flashbacks). Abby only mentions that she's helping Lev and Yara because of guilt. Her guilt is likely linked to killing Joel and getting nothing out of it and all the people that she hurt in the past.

These simple narrative points are easy to pick up and you clearly missed it. lol.

 

[xBlueStonex]

How does Abby spend hours vilifying Ellie when her second encounter is at the theatre? She doesn't even bring her up in the conversation until that very point in the story.

You misunderstood my point. Abby herself doesn't vilify Ellie, playing as her does. The narrative does its absolute best to make you detest Ellie/Joel in every way possible. How? Playing as Abby - "Oh look! Cute dog! Let's give it pets and play fetch." Playing as Ellie - "Die doggy die!!!" Abby pets dogs, Ellie kills them.

As I alluded to in my previous response, ND had to do this in order to justify Abby's existence. Without vilifying Joel/Ellie at every possible turn, not a single person on Earth would want to play Abby, nor would they side with her after killing Joel. The only possible way to do this was to retcon the first.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Great graphics, great gameplay, shit story.

Simple.

 

[PanzerAzel]

SPOILERS AHEAD (1st and 2nd game)

Let's get the most brilliant part of the game first: The graphics, OMG this game looks awesome! It even scares me how PS5 games will look like at the end of this gen.

Secondly, the gameplay is great. I normally suck at games, but I know many people have praised this game for its combat mechanics.

Then comes the story, which is what I like the most of playing single payer games. This game is still confusing me about liking it or not.

I believe many people hate the story, not because it's good or bad, but because it didn't go they way they thought it would. I can say I definitely did not imagine things would go this in a sequel when I finished the first one.

Then there's the story itself. IMO, before considering if it's good or bad, I think the thing that it affects it the most (at least for me), is that they focused 99% on the characters and they forgot the world they built in the first game. The first game we were introduced to a world that was being consumed by a virus, and we saw the beginning of it in the introduction, as well as the world after the outbreak in the course of the story. In fact, the story focused on the cure which Ellie was the hope of it.

In the second game, the world passed to be practically irrelevant. We don't really see the outcome of Ellie being immune (except with Joel's lie), but as a world in general, is like nobody cared if there could be someone else like Ellie. Also, even without someone like Ellie, it's like everyone just stopped looking for something of a cure. I thought that in the second game, we would se more of the world affected by the virus. Like other countries, etc, but didn't happen, obviously.

So. said that the second game focused way too much in the characters, and while it's not a bad thing. If you take the story as is, and place it in another world, it would make sense. Make it so that they are in war, instead of an apocalyptic world, they could still do the same story. Like, why would a group of people be more dangerous than freaking zombies?! It's like if you are playing Resident Evil 2 and you would fear more the mob destroying the city, than the actual people getting turned into zombies, or something like that.

Going into the story, I think it was good in general, but not for this franchise. It would have made much more sense to make a new IP to do something like this revenge cycle, because I think the characters would have to focus more on the dangers of the world than. the drama of revenge. The moment the focused the story in revenge, the zombies and the different groups were just an obstacle, instead of real dangers our characters should look for.

I liked the Sepharite group because I believe that in such a world, in real life, many of these groups would be created in order to survive each in their own way. Some will go back to 0, others will have luxuries, etc. That's good, but they were just merely plot devices to get to the revenge main plot.

So the story was serviceable, it does make you feel many emotions, and it goes to places that not many writers dare to go and I think that's why it caused so much controversy, and to me that's great. Whether it was good or bad, I wish many writers in games and movies dare to do things as different and exciting as they did with this game. They need to take risks.

Joel's Death:
One of the main criticism about the game was the death of Joel. In the contained story that they were telling, it made a lot of sense, and it was executed well, but like I said, this particular story should've been made into other game. I believe that Joel should have died defending Ellie from some huge danger, not from being the target of revenge.

I disagree wholeheartedly in saying the second game focused too much on the characters. TLoU was the character driven game, and it was by far its greatest strength. People love Joel and Ellie. I consider the first game to be, at its core, a love story. Everything else (the world) was simply there as a pretense to allow Joel and Ellie‘s relationship to grow and nurture.

One of the main missteps of the second game narratively, IMO, is instead of furthering characterization, it eschewed, belittled and exploited the characters in the pursuit of thematic reinforcement. Sure, there were themes in the original, but they were borne and naturally existed within the characters and were highlighted in and throughout their developmental arcs. It feels to me in the second game, the writers began with a theme they were set on, and the characters became pawns to be beholdened and used however best would benefit it at any given moment. They ceased to hold ownership of the themes, and instead stood at their mercy. Characters felt to me like they were being yanked all over the place as plot and theme dictated towards its goal instead of organically evolving as actual real individuals with their own desires, fears, etc, in demonstrating those themes and bringing them to their natural conclusion, and consequently came off as not genuine, soulless, contrived, exploited, and inconsistent in their reasoning and actions, not only within the game, but also contrasted to what had been previously established in the first.

I enjoy TLoU II, but every time I play it am reminded how fundamentally different it is from the first…..again, it moved from a character driven experience to a thematically driven one. For me, it’s a mechanically superior game, but lost its soul that made the original so beloved.

 

[DForce]

You misunderstood my point. Abby herself doesn't vilify Ellie, playing as her does. The narrative does its absolute best to make you detest Ellie/Joel in every way possible. How? Playing as Abby - "Oh look! Cute dog! Let's give it pets and play fetch." Playing as Ellie - "Die doggy die!!!" Abby pets dogs, Ellie kills them.

As I alluded to in my previous response, ND had to do this in order to justify Abby's existence. Without vilifying Joel/Ellie at every possible turn, not a single person on Earth would want to play Abby, nor would they side with her after killing Joel. The only possible way to do this was to retcon the first.

No, there was no misunderstanding. You're trying to make a point and you're just failing at it.

Playing as Abby doesn't mean it vilifies Ellie and Joel. That's just a narrative you created in your head based on your flawed interpretation of the story.

All the violent acts committed by Ellie was the result of Abby killing Joel. Her actions and behavior is understandable because she had to watch Joel as he died. Your interpretation of this story is very poor and I don't see how you can play the game twice and come to this conclusion. You're simply forcing a narrative that isn't even there.

There's no retcon and you're using a word that you clearly do not understand. Can't continue to discuss this game with someone who has a very poor understanding of the story and what the word retcon means. lol

 

[xBlueStonex]

No, there was no misunderstanding. You're trying to make a point and you're just failing at it.

Playing as Abby doesn't mean it vilifies Ellie and Joel. That's just a narrative you created in your head based on your flawed interpretation of the story.

All the violent acts committed by Ellie was the result of Abby killing Joel. Her actions and behavior is understandable because she had to watch Joel as he died. Your interpretation of this story is very poor and I don't see how you can play the game twice and come to this conclusion. You're simply forcing a narrative that isn't even there.

There's no retcon and you're using a word that you clearly do not understand. Can't continue to discuss this game with someone who has a very poor understanding of the story and what the word retcon means. lol

Love the nonresponse and retcon gatekeeping. Can't continue to discuss the game with someone who ignores so much. That being said, did you really just say:

All the violent acts committed by Ellie was the result of Abby killing Joel. Her actions and behavior is understandable because she had to watch Joel as he died.

The irony lmao.

 

[EruditeHobo]

You misunderstood my point. Abby herself doesn't vilify Ellie, playing as her does. The narrative does its absolute best to make you detest Ellie/Joel in every way possible. How? Playing as Abby - "Oh look! Cute dog! Let's give it pets and play fetch." Playing as Ellie - "Die doggy die!!!" Abby pets dogs, Ellie kills them.

As I alluded to in my previous response, ND had to do this in order to justify Abby's existence. Without vilifying Joel/Ellie at every possible turn, not a single person on Earth would want to play Abby, nor would they side with her after killing Joel. The only possible way to do this was to retcon the first.

Showing Abby as sympathetic doesn't vilify Ellie and Joel. I mean, at least point to the boss battle against Ellie? At least that is a somewhat credible point that the game is interested in shifting perspectives via gameplay and game scenarios, that at least is relevant to an argument vilifying Ellie.

Joel... you've still got a shitload of work to do to come up with a credible argument for him.

Either way, these aren't narrative flaws. Your reaction to Ellie and Joel, thinking that has to constantly be positive and the player shouldn't have bad thoughts about them, which is what you seem to be suggesting, is bizarre. The whole game is about the grey area that these characters are dealing with, being at times between allegiances, with competing wants pulling at them, and still having desperate and violent measures be an inextricable part of their journey. Even when they don't want it to be anymore!

Vilifying Joel at ever turn... this is not even close to supported by the game. Remains a very weak argument, but nonetheless is one by which you seem very convinced.

 

[DForce]

Love the nonresponse and retcon gatekeeping. Can't continue to discuss the game with someone who ignores so much. That being said, did you really just say:


The irony lmao.

I love how I counter every point you make and then you move on to something else.

Play the game slowly next time and least to what the characters are actually saying.. Maybe then you will actually understand the narrative of this game, but as of right now, you don't.

I'm done.

 

[xBlueStonex]

I love how I counter every point you make and then you move on to something else.

Play the game slowly next time and least to what the characters are actually saying.. Maybe then you will actually understand the narrative of this game, but as of right now, you don't.

I'm done.

I wouldn't call side-stepping my points and making personal attacks "countering", but sure, you can call it that. You failed to understand my previous response about the vilification of Ellie/Joel to prop up Abby, and at this point I don't think you have the mental capacity to truly understand it. So we'll leave it at that. And oh, great job defending Joel's actions at the end of TLOU1 in your last reply. You were spot on.

Showing Abby as sympathetic doesn't vilify Ellie and Joel. I mean, at least point to the boss battle against Ellie? At least that is a somewhat credible point that the game is interested in shifting perspectives via gameplay and game scenarios, that at least is relevant to an argument vilifying Ellie.

Showing Abby as sympathetic is only half of the vilification equation - the other half is, for instance, making Ellie kill the very same dog the player has become familiar with while playing Abby. It really is manipulation 101.

 

[Fredrik]

Showing Abby as sympathetic is only half of the vilification equation - the other half is, for instance, making Ellie kill the very same dog the player has become familiar with while playing Abby. It really is manipulation 101.

Of course it is. And this thread is proof enough that ND succeeded. They took the random enemies you brutally slaughter while picking your nose in other games and gave them a name and personality, including the dog. It’s brilliant. Nobody says ”whatever it’s just pixels” when they play TLOUP2. A name is a powerful thing. Even just naming your Whirlm in Viva Pinata and then seeing a random Sparrowmint go nomnom on it had you go ”- Nooo I’ve had lil Nicky since the start ”. Or in Cannon Fodder when you saw your soldiers names on the graves. Meanwhile you don’t think twice about what happens to random soldier 375 who Nathan kill in Uncharted before going home to play some Crash and cuddle with Elena.

 

[assurdum]

The story it's horrible imo. It's all about the Ellie trauma and nothing more, a completely waste of time. I'd like to know more about the TLOU universe, instead it's all about the revenge obsession of Ellie and the Abby side story which is practically a plagiarism to the last area of Metro Exodus (really embarrassing how they copied it); practically a massive bullshit of unnecessary rhetoric without nothing of interesting to relate. If the third is something like that, they can go to fuck off, I hate how Neil led the sequel narrative, still can't stomach the bad taste it left to me.

 

[TonyK]

Would I have preferred Joel not died? Sure.
Is Last of Us 2 a masterpiece even if Joel died? Sure.

 

[Calverz]

Spoiler

I’m glad Joel died. Guy was an asshole. Also I wanted to kill Ellie as she was an asshole too. Glad she can’t play guitar. Bitch.

 

[rofif]

Great graphics, great gameplay, shit story.

Simple.

Absolutely amazing story. Profound I would say.
You can have your opinion but the story is for sure but simple.
For me, pacing was kinda weak

 

[assurdum]

Would I have preferred Joel not died? Sure.
Is Last of Us 2 a masterpiece even if Joel died? Sure.

Can't care less if Joel died. I just hate the story and how nothing happens in the game universe outside the Joel end. It's incredibly static, seems almost a filler.

 

[The_Mike]

Agreed. The sex scene with Abby was better the second play through.

Was prepared for the package the second time after the shock has dusted off.

 

[assurdum]

Absolutely amazing story. Profound I would say.
You can have your opinion but the story is for sure but simple.
For me, pacing was kinda weak

It's incredibly how many people fall in the trap of the "easy" emotion. If you look to the substance of the subject, the story it's incredibly inconsistent and contradictory. Most of the characters behaviour has no sense at all to me; it only fit the author obsessive research of the sensationalism than relate to a good story. But the game did good in the gameplay, at least. Funny stuff, Uncharted 4 was the exact contrary imo.

 

[Saaleh]

The main neutral thing I didn't like in this vision was the design of abby, it was way below average, it just killed the mood for me because half the game is about her perspective. Skinny abby would of been a bit better with their vision. ( don't hate my design taste, I'm skinny as hell too ). If she was a side character I wouldn't care, but she was treated as main. But whatever, the design level of tlou2 makes it a masterpiece for me even if I hated the story.

 

[Markio128]

"Loved it"? Lol
Also this is only the second game after almost a decade and they kill the man in like the first hour. Unacceptable for me

 

[Clear]

It's incredibly how many people fall in the trap of the "easy" emotion. If you look to the substance of the subject, the story it's incredibly inconsistent and contradictory. Most of the characters behaviour has no sense at all to me; it only fit the author obsessive research of the sensationalism than relate to a good story. But the game did good in the gameplay, at least. Funny stuff, Uncharted 4 was the exact contrary imo.

Really gotta disagree with you. Everything seemed consistent and logical to me given the overall world-view and character trajectories. There are contrivances and implausibilities but they are largely unavoidable given its a video game.

Honestly, its just not a "fun" type of story. The first game was dark but was constructed such that it was more emotionally appealing with actual peaks of relatable catharsis. The rub though was that this catharsis was achieved in every instance by delivering a justification for extreme violence. It felt good to off a hospital full of Firefly goons to save Ellie, it felt good for Eliie to stab the shit out of David the creepy paedo-cannibal-rapist!

The second game is all about critiquing that by forcing us to deal with the unpleasant realities. The downside I guess is that its constructed to travel a path to a climax that is never going to be so entertainingly barbaric. Its clear from the outset that at best its going to end with a pyrrhic victory, so its harder to invest.

 

[rofif]

It's incredibly how many people fall in the trap of the "easy" emotion. If you look to the substance of the subject, the story it's incredibly inconsistent and contradictory. Most of the characters behaviour has no sense at all to me; it only fit the author obsessive research of the sensationalism than relate to a good story. But the game did good in the gameplay, at least. Funny stuff, Uncharted 4 was the exact contrary imo.

Easy emotion? So now we are emotion shaming?!
I hated that game for good 15 hours. It worked hard to win me over and it is a roller coaster of emotion.

Fuck your easy emotion. I never cry but I did on the last guardian, death Stranding and tlou2 last gen

 

[CheshirexChrono]

If I had to put my two cents in, I would say narratively the game took a leap and only slightly misjudged the landing.
I absolutely adored the split story aspect however at times I felt like it might have played better if it wasn't one after the other but chunked throughout the game. Sometimes I felt like things were rushing along to fast, Ellie's section felt limited in scope, with only a few things happening. Abbie's side felt jarring to play through once you kind of saw how it ended. I feel like a chapter system where you play a part of each characters story might have played better narratively. They could have even interwoven at some points.
I never understood the hate people had for Abby, thought the acting was great and her being a strong woman fit with her role as a frontlines soldier. Wasn't a mega fan of how they dealt with the other characters of the troupe that worked with Abbie, felt like they were kind of teeny, and lacked substance but that's more to do with my own preferences.
Now when it comes to Joel's I do feel like it was the right move, they may have done it the wrong way, I'm not sure but it was the right thing to do. I didn't want to play another Joel and Ellie.

 

[Banjo64]

I guess a lot of people need to focus on any weaknesses in the story because every other element of the game is peerless. Nothing is perfect and you can’t please everybody. Maybe some gamers may have accepted Abby’s story a little more if she had met their expectations of what a video game female should look like. And they may have preferred Ellie if she wasn’t gay. But then that would mean growing the fuck up.

Re: the bolded, I’m not sure why that’s even a talking point. It looks like a pathetic attempt to discredit anyone who has a legitimate criticism of the game.

I don’t remember anyone (maybe aside from a one or two fringe lunatics) having an issue with Left Behind. In fact Left Behind was nearly universally loved as far as I recall, the same can’t be said for TLoU2.

 

[Markio128]

Re: the bolded, I’m not sure why that’s even a talking point. It looks like a pathetic attempt to discredit anyone who has a legitimate criticism of the game.

I don’t remember anyone (maybe aside from a one or two fringe lunatics) having an issue with Left Behind. In fact Left Behind was nearly universally loved as far as I recall, the same can’t be said for TLoU2.

I distinctly remember the meltdowns when ND showed the kissing scene for the first time in TLOU2. Still, it was not an attempt to discredit any legitimate criticism of the game, so not sure how you came to that conclusion. I did use the words ‘may have’, so getting triggered by this surprises me.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

It's certainly worth 60$, but not 70$!

 

[Banjo64]

I distinctly remember the meltdowns when ND showed the kissing scene for the first time in TLOU2. Still, it was not an attempt to discredit any legitimate criticism of the game, so not sure how you came to that conclusion. I did use the words ‘may have’, so getting triggered by this surprises me.

Triggered

You may be a child rapist but I used the words may be so that’s not an attempt to insinuate anything.

 

[Markio128]

Triggered

You may be a child rapist but I used the words may be so that’s not an attempt to insinuate anything.

Wow. I love it when people use extremes to win an argument. I was thinking out loud and my comment was not aimed at anyone in particular. I’ll look forward to you accusing me of maybe being some other kind of abhorrent person.

 

[Banjo64]

Wow. I love it when people use extremes to win an argument. I was thinking out loud and my comment was not aimed at anyone in particular. I’ll look forward to you accusing me of maybe being some other kind of abhorrent person.

I was only making a light hearted point mate, not sure why you are getting so triggered. Surely you can see the absurdity of my comparison?

 

[Corgi1985]

It's another boring as fuck 3rd person shitematic game with passages to shimmy through and ledges to climb. 0/10 tired of this shit. ND biggest hacks in gaming.

 

[Markio128]

I was only making a light hearted point mate, not sure why you are getting so triggered. Surely you can see the absurdity of my comparison?

Mmm, I think referencing a child rapist may have been a little over the top, but you certainly made your point.

 

[Finsksvenskan]

I absolutely loved Last of Us and I was blown away by it. I dearly cared about Joel and Ellie. The game was a journey and it stayed with me, effected me deeply.
Last of Us 2, I didn’t know what to expect and the story completely fucked me emotionally. I really like the game, after I had taken some time to collect myself. But it really scarred me. It’s been longe time since I’ve played it, but I still have so mixed feelings towards it. It’s a beautiful game and every emotion I felt towards the story was so strong. After finish it, I felt so emotional drained and empty. And for so long after, I barely was able to speak about it, I felt so confused and heartbroken. Very few games have made me feel this strongly. Even if I don’t agree or like something with the game, it still gets a high score from me. The way it affected me, and I still think about it, that’s a good game in my book.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I guess a lot of people need to focus on any weaknesses in the story because every other element of the game is peerless.

I mean, when 95% of a story are weaknesses and the rest 5% of it is peerless, its only natural to focus on the weaknesses.

 

[Topher]

Showing Abby as sympathetic is only half of the vilification equation - the other half is, for instance, making Ellie kill the very same dog the player has become familiar with while playing Abby. It really is manipulation 101.

So the game showed you the other side of the story and you didn't like feeling sympathetic. I get that, but to me that is part of what made the tale brilliant. Kind of like a Quentin Tarantino movie where you've got Bruce Willis' character killing John Travolta's. You've just had a character whom you've grown fond of over the last 30 minutes kill a character you had grown fond of the first 30 minutes. Was that also manipulation? Again, this is a tale of revenge. Actually, it is a tale of revenge spawning revenge spawning revenge. Twisted has hell, yes, but this isn't your simple kill everyone until you get to the big bad guy at the end. There is no big bad guy. There is no good guy either.

I think a lot of folks simply want clear cut "good guys" and clear cut "bad guys". This is definitely not the game for them.

I mean, when 95% of a story are weaknesses and the rest 5% of it is peerless, its only natural to focus on the weaknesses.

You say that as if it is a quantifiable fact.

 

[Markio128]

I mean, when 95% of a story are weaknesses and the rest 5% of it is peerless, its only natural to focus on the weaknesses.

Whether a story is good or bad is subjective. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. How you can use percentages in your argument is hilarious. It’s like me saying 93.4% of your opinion is tripe.

 

[TheInfamousKira]

I guess a lot of people need to focus on any weaknesses in the story because every other element of the game is peerless. Nothing is perfect and you can’t please everybody. Maybe some gamers may have accepted Abby’s story a little more if she had met their expectations of what a video game female should look like. And they may have preferred Ellie if she wasn’t gay. But then that would mean growing the fuck up.

And absolutely NONE of the discussion in this thread has focused on homophobia or trash talking Abby's non gender conforming appearance. Seriously, DON'T bring this up, it makes you look like a fool when you dismiss paragraphs upon paragraphs of conversation about motives, character interpretation, and plot consistency for the low hanging fruit of "you guys are just a bunch of -ists and -phobes. It's embarrassing. This isn't a subreddit. The fans bring this shit up more than the detractors.

 

[Guilty_AI]

You say that like it is a quantifiable fact.

Whether a story is good or bad is subjective. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. How you can use percentages in your argument is hilarious. It’s like me saying 93.4% of your opinion is tripe.

It kinda is quantifiable when you consider that the flashbacks with Joel and Ellie are the only moments where the game shines.
All thats left is calculate more precisely the length ratio of those with the the rest of the game. BAN, percentages.

 

[imissweed]

In your opinion. That’s key to civilised conversation.

I agree wholeheartedly about the zebra scene being very on the nose.

My experience with this game has been a rollercoaster of emotions from initial outrage like many to over the past year gradually falling in love with many aspects of the game.

I love the beginning and find it truly sucks the player in and the shifts in perspective were very well timed and paced. Initially the graphics in the Jackson section are not mind-blowing and I hope that this area gets some improvement in the soon to be announced and released directors cut that I can only guess is in the works.

Day 1 I think is the ellie's best overall day as far as pacing goes. The graphics are absolutely stunning in this section of the world map.

DAY 2 has some awesome parts like the Hillcrest section but the part where ellie goes after Nora starts to really drag on...

To be continued....

 

[Markio128]

It kinda is quantifiable when you consider that the flashbacks with Joel and Ellie are the only moments where the game shines.
All thats left is calculate more precisely the length ratio of those with the the rest of the game. BAN, percentages.

But that’s based on your opinion being fact, which it isn’t. I mean, I can’t remember having to answer a question in my maths exam, where I needed to calculate the percentage of good acting in Jaws. Maybe maths has changed since?

 

[BlackTron]

I played the first game back on PS3 and really liked it, while 2 I just can't seem to make myself care enough to play it, but somehow I still care enough to read all the impressions and opinions on the game. There isn't quite anything like it. Here a guy played it twice and still doesn't know WTF. From favorite game ever to totally failed sequel. One develops a morbid curiosity to walk into the territory all those abbey gifs/memes came from, just to see for yourself.

But it's scary.

 

[imissweed]

I agree wholeheartedly about the zebra scene being very on the nose.

My experience with this game has been a rollercoaster of emotions from initial outrage like many to over the past year gradually falling in love with many aspects of the game.

I love the beginning and find it truly sucks the player in and the shifts in perspective were very well timed and paced. Initially the graphics in the Jackson section are not mind-blowing and I hope that this area gets some improvement in the soon to be announced and released directors cut that I can only guess is in the works.

Day 1 I think is the ellie's best overall day as far as pacing goes. The graphics are absolutely stunning in this section of the world map.

DAY 2 has some awesome parts like the Hillcrest section but the part where ellie goes after Nora starts to really drag on...

To be continued....

Day 3 is better paced and the obsession to find abby is evident when Ellie decides on splitting up with Jesse to pursue Abby even though she had earlier agreed to Jesse that once they find Tommy she will drop her vengeance for the well being of Dina.

I am actually currently replaying the game so the events are very fresh in my memory.

I TRULY HOPE that someone from naughty dog reads some of these comments but mine in particular lol.

STEP UP THE DIRECTORS CUT FROM WHAT SUCKER PUNCH DID NOT DO!!!

THEY DID NOT.....

Make any genuine significant upgrades to the graphics and it really makes them look very amateur in comparison to the technical wizards that naughty dog is known as. Please make significant upgrades to lighting and textures and not just the weak little bump in resolution that sucker punch......sucker punched us with.....omg that was such a waste of money to double dip on.

Also there implementation of the dualsense support was very meh.

In Kratos words...."do not be sorry....be better"

 

[Justin9mm]

It's a great game!
Play it. Embrace the story that is being told to you. Reflect on it and that's it. You don't have to agree to everything in the story, every outcome, but that's how it is.
The girls might regret everything they did in the end - or not - but that's how their life turned out to be, based on their decisions.

Yeah that's the logical and rational type of gamer.

Then there's the other type of gamers.

 

[Certinty]

The story and new characters aren’t just bad, they’re horrific. The game overstays its welcome too, so many different endings yet it keeps continuing.

But besides that the game is great. Visually, level design, gameplay, voice acting and other stuff are all stunning.

But yeah, the story and shit new characters ruins it all.

 

[Guilty_AI]

But that’s based on your opinion being fact, which it isn’t. I mean, I can’t remember having to answer a question in my maths exam, where I needed to calculate the percentage of good acting in Jaws. Maybe maths has changed since?

Oh, it definitely has changed.
We live in the age where computers will use the power of math to calculate your tastes based on your social interactions and behaviours. And get it right enough to create entire carrers around those systems.

Real life spoilers:
A lot of the stuff you enjoy - most definitely including TLoU2 - was enhanced or resulted by these types of calculations

 

[imissweed]

Consider me in the minority concerning the graphics. I LOVED the game in 4K/60 but didn’t feel the joy of playing after experiencing the beautiful textures of Demon’s Souls, Ratchet, etc.

I beat it but will plat it only upon receiving haptics and upgraded textures for PS5.

I cannot wait.

Me too buddy I want some sexy PS5 textures and lighting. Maybe even a new mode that randomize enemy numbers and placements. A new difficulty the doubles the enemy numbers as the best thing about this game is killing hateful people in the most gruesome and humiliating ways possible.

More blood and guts Neil Cuckman....its all you're good for anyway.

 

[Werewolf Jones]

We still on this?

First game: Not good.

Second game: Good.

It's that simple.

 

[Magnific0giganticus]

I didn't hate Abby when she killed Joel. Did I like her or what she did? No. I had no idea what to make of that cold-blooded murder. It was very shocking for a moment but then I just wanted to unravel this mystery. Why did they kill him? They knew who he was. At first I suspected Tommy, since they let him live. But that suspicion didn't last long. Abby was set up to be disliked. The first time I saw her I thought "she looks like a trans woman". But then she kills Joel, and that didn't stir any hard feelings towards her, I mean, I was shocked, but then I was intrigued about why do that. Then I play as Ellie and track her down, Ellie does a couple of questionable things on the way, but hell, it's revenge time and it's a savage world, I'm not questioning Ellie's actions, as gruesome as they get.

She eventually finds Abby who kills Jesse and it's about to kill the rest of their friends, and her, and then the story flips sides and I'm playing as Abby. Abby as a young girl. It was totally unexpected. It was. I liked that, though I was more worried about all my equipment and upgrades being lost (LOL, honestly!).

Not to make this a complete retelling of the story, but as I played with Abby I started to get to know her, her friends, her life. I'm still not a fan of hers. And I say, that's OK. I don't have to be a fan of the character. I grew fond of her when she showed compassion to Lev and his sister. Maybe she's not bad, maybe she just really hates the people who, well, killed her father and other colleagues, and who knows how many more. The sharpshooter scene was for me the first nail in the coffin. When I realized it was Tommy, and he fights Abby, that's was just a prelude of what was to come. I felt the clash of emotions, but it was brief, it was intense, but I was shocked again, I didn't want to Kill Tommy, but a little part of me wanted to. And I didn't want him to kill Abby. That was quite a moment.

Finally I come to what seemed to me at the moment as the final showdown. I'm like, wait...Ellie's the final "boss"? This can't be right. I have encountered emotions and it's all cool I'm now on the other side watching Ellie being sneaky and beating the crap out of me (I played on very hard all settings except supplies), but I'm not sure I like where this is going. When I first get to the point where I get to choke Ellie, I'm expecting a choice or a command prompt or a cut-scene. I couldn't bring myself to do it and Ellie beats me. But the fight resets and it dawns on me: these fucking writers! They want me to kill Ellie. I mean, it's not like she doesn't deserve it. She definitely does. But, it's not like Abby is any better. This is not the end I want for this story, it can't be like that. I finally bring myself to press square all the way to the end. I had never in my life felt so disgusted by pressing a button continually. I just wanted it to end. Then she stops. Abby spares her life. Wow. That was intense. The game could have ended on that note and it would have been great. But it wouldn't have been fair to Ellie. You see, when Abby spares her life, that didn't bring peace to Ellie. Abby now had lost her friends, but she was the better one, because she decided to put a stop on the cycle of revenge. But Ellie had done many wrongs and she didn't get peace or find redemption.

Ellie returned to Dina and she was seemingly happy, but then she can't find peace and chooses to follow revenge once again. Now I really don't like Ellie. Leave Nina and her son, to go searching for Abby once again. Ellie was broken, she just couldn't put it behind her, even with the prospect of a new family and someone who loves her. I think Ellie was still lost within herself, and she felt vilified. She couldn't accept the killer of Joel had gotten away, and was disgusted at this "compassion" she showed her. I think she hated that. In the end Ellie redeems herself by letting go of Abby, letting go of grief, hate and revenge. She looked at Lev and saw herself and Joel. And then the final flashback to Joel, that conversation they had that night. I finally understood. She never got to make peace with Joel. Abby robbed her of that. Now she finally let go of Joel. Though I don't think she found peace. It was a perfect ending, and I don't think any other game has been as cleverly written or more gutsy in its approach.

 

[Ulysses 31]

She looked at Lev and saw herself and Joel. And then the final flashback to Joel, that conversation they had that night. I finally understood. She never got to make peace with Joel. Abby robbed her of that. Now she finally let go of Joel. Though I don't think she found peace. It was a perfect ending, and I don't think any other game has been as cleverly written or more gutsy in its approach.

Don't think your explanation works: she puts a knife to Lev's throat to force Abby to fight her. The whole fight is strange that she keeps the knife and doesn't use the firearm she has in the cutscene before. I saw no indication that she looked at Lev at any moment during the fight to get a reminder of herself and Joel. Even if she realized what you think she does at the end, all the lives it took kinda puts a heavy dampener on it.

 

[Athreous]

I remember hating the game because the spoilers made it look horrible... But then I actually bought it and started playing... The game is great, but the way that the story is told, kinda sucks... I mean, it's not bad, but it makes us hate some stuff way too soon, and later in the game, there's a total lack of pace, things happen too fast or too slow... But it was a great ride!

 

[Fredrik]

The story it's horrible imo. It's all about the Ellie trauma and nothing more, a completely waste of time. I'd like to know more about the TLOU universe, instead it's all about the revenge obsession of Ellie and the Abby side story which is practically a plagiarism to the last area of Metro Exodus (really embarrassing how they copied it); practically a massive bullshit of unnecessary rhetoric without nothing of interesting to relate. If the third is something like that, they can go to fuck off, I hate how Neil led the sequel narrative, still can't stomach the bad taste it left to me.

Yeah I choose to skip it, revenge is boring, but what they had going in TLOU1 was great and I hope they’re going back to the virus outbreak and post-apocalyptic plot in the third game. Would be cool with a completely new set of characters with a new quest to save humankind. But Neil is a dark man, we’ll probably see Ellie’s kid and Dina get murdered and then we’re back into pitch black revenge again. Apparently he wanted to kill Elena in Uncharted as well.

 

[sn0man]

Those nightmare sequences where she sees her dead father should have culminated in a nightmare where she walks in and instead of seeing her father, she sees Ellie crying over a dead Joel hammering the point home. She should feel personally responsible for the deaths of all of her friends. Lev and all that other bullshit weren't even needed for this story.

Hopefully, that all made sense. Just a really disappointing experience for me and it's all because of the way Abby's character was written. Oh well.

This is one of the first criticisms of the story that I can totally appreciate. I really enjoyed TLOU2 and it was easy for me to hate Abby. It was also easy for me to not want to murder her at the end because of my time spent playing as her even though I started out hating the fact I had to play as her.

For me I see the Abby thing in certain ways that make the story interesting:
1.) for all her strength of convictions she doesn’t have that realization that revenge is wrong. Ellie figured it out from, of all places, a guy who was willing to kill all the time. Ellie does what Abby cannot, spare the murderer of her father
2.) Abby has more justifications, it isn’t just the murder of her father that she is trying to avenge but the man that selfishly chose a child instead of humanity itself
For what it’s worth, I think some symbolism that wasn’t quite as heavy handed as your description could have been nice. That said, the game is fully of heavy handed symbolism so why not do the dream sequence exactly as you say.
3) not everyone can learn from self and from dreams. Often they need situations like Lev. I agree that your writing might have felt more right for me and how I might come to understand things but you can’t expect all humans to process things that way. Look at how many humans today feel certain ways about the pandemic. There is no reaching some on either side of our own situation.
4) I assume TLOU3 will have a lot of Abby reflecting on what happened and who she was and she won’t be as buff anymore and people will come out of the woodwork suddenly praising how great she’s always been. (A prediction of sorts.)