xellos2099alpha
Member
to be fair, infinite is like a year delay. And the trailer last year for infintie was horribleHorizon FW Delay = Covid
Halo Infinite Delay = Incompetence>bad management>several changes of key saff>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>covid
to be fair, infinite is like a year delay. And the trailer last year for infintie was horribleHorizon FW Delay = Covid
Halo Infinite Delay = Incompetence>bad management>several changes of key saff>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>covid
Damn, I didnt know you worked on Kingdom Come Deliverence. Thats a gorgeous looking game. Too bad the combat was lame (no offense intended) because as a graphics whore I really wanted to keep playing.Yeah, especially if underlying streaming of data from slow ass HDD or/and weird ESRAM+DDR3 configuration of RAM it cause huge issues with bugged quests and so on. It's not that the scripted sequence is wrong, it's just that if all important components are not in memory (let's say path to quest, list of options to talk, etc, etc) at the time which they should it does random things and it's really impossible to QA before launch, because QA would then be bigger than the whole dev team. So like this many QA with coding ability become sort of devs, that's what happened to me and I was in core team which actually make the base console version run well.
Where another sort of "issue" arose (past of arise?) because you are doing general algorithm or piece of code, which manage memory at allowed footprint and you take the lowest performing version (X1S) and when that version run, you copy that logic over to another POS console and you hope that it runs also. But both of those solutions are 90% same and 10% is duck tape which ensure that same logic works.
However all in all I believe that result is still commendable. It was just 12 people doing this. You simply cannot have some higher logic which works totally differently, because then even higher level wouldn't work. 3rdp party engine should handle all of this well, if it's not Cryengine, but sadly it was Cryengine, which was due to situation over at Crytek in pretty sad state.
But when it was negotiated, company was ensure that everything is ok and nothing is problem with what we are doing. Well it appears, that it's not exactly designed fort game of this scale.
Bottom line:
This gen I believe there are going to be less issues, but man we should abandon those old-ass console. They have a lot of issues with slow CPUs, which suppose to be boosted by GP GPU ACE units, but programming of those units is unreasonably complex (or rather lengthy) and it leads to heterogeneous codebase (CPU instruction and GPU instruction running in parallel for CPU-like code) and it's a mess to debug it. So yeah, MS have better solution i believe because they can run cloud versions on X1 and thus not do native X1 versions.
But Halo...that's another story. And I believe that it's not complexity of many platforms, it's more incompetence of the team. It's still fucking shooter, which in complexity is nowhere near RPGs and games like that. Like from the perspective of debugging, etc.
As someone might not know, the game in question is Kingdom Come. I loved to share my thoughts on Switch development, but dem Nintendo ninjas. Their NDA is strict.
Well the combat was suppose to be way more ambitious with better animation, but the issue is that these animation is expensive with everything else on the screen, obviously it would be same but better. However the animation was dumbed down because it was unrealistic, that character would be 1GB+ data of procedural/baked in animation and some more complex system was too much of collisions etc. Even for that time PCs, time to develop it, integrate it and so on. If no one else is doing it, it's an issue, that you have no resort to go to, for a advice and stuff like that. Support teams (including people from Nixxes, no less) were telling us that our system is never going to work in mainstream game, but thankfully a lot of mafia money (and not that Mafia, just coal mafia money...long story) decide that it should be done as it was envisioned and not another dark souls like system... which I am sure it would get way bigger mainstream appeal.Damn, I didnt know you worked on Kingdom Come Deliverence. Thats a gorgeous looking game. Too bad the combat was lame (no offense intended) because as a graphics whore I really wanted to keep playing.
I think any time any game takes more than 4 years to make, it's in development hell. These same studios used to put out games every 2-3 years and now take 5 years even triple the team size? Yes, the devs are at fault. But porting them 5 times over does not help either.
This. If a game is delayed right now, I think the default explanations should be "COVID fucked up the development timeline" and "AAA games from all developers are increasingly suffering from project bloat as assets and features become more and more time and resource intensive to create." Targeting multiple platforms may be exacerbating these problems, but note that even Nintendo's most ambitious projects (BOTW 2, MP 4, Bayonetta 3, who knows how many unannounced projects) are also taking a long ass time to come out and those are all targeting a single relatively low spec platform. This is just where the entire industry is at right now, unfortunately.Videogames are more expensive to make than ever and take longer, plus covid has affected all the industry.
I honestly doubt thisFW started out as a PS4 game. So I don't think you can blame Sony too much that they're making a PS4 and PS5 version. Halo's delay is due to management issues, not because the game is cross-platform. They lost their creative director mid-cycle. There's no way that didn't impact the development timeline.
Pretty much this.Horizon FW Delay = Covid
Halo Infinite Delay = Incompetence>bad management>several changes of key saff>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>covid
It's impossible.I honestly doubt this
They may have started some work on PS4 dev kits out of necessity but I think it was always going to be a PS5 game and the PS4 decision was made later when Sony realised they wouldn't have enough PS5 units ready to sell what these games need to even at 100% attach rate
Its no coincidence that PS4 games got added back to these games well after announcement. Sony have 10-20 million sellers that they dont want to lose ground on unit sales from
Sony is not porting Horizon 2 to PC yet. If it happens will be in something like 2 years and Sony aquired a studio to make ports so that dosent affect any PS games made by the main studios.Let's not act like porting a game from playstation to PC is a monumental task. Sony went to PC architecture to make this much easier. It isn't CELL.
Except that plenty of delayed games are huge disappointments. In fact, delays often indicate troubled development and are a red flag.As Miyamoto said: "A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game like Cyberpunk 2077 can suck my dick."
Lets face it...the whole development was a trainwreck from begin to end....FW started out as a PS4 game. So I don't think you can blame Sony too much that they're making a PS4 and PS5 version. Halo's delay is due to management issues, not because the game is cross-platform. They lost their creative director mid-cycle. There's no way that didn't impact the development timeline.
Thats not true for HZD FW i can tell you that.Except that plenty of delayed games are huge disappointments. In fact, delays often indicate troubled development and are a red flag.
Now, a delayed MIYAMOTO game... that's a different story.
Pre production would last quite a while and they also had work on Frozen Wilds so the majority of the team would have been working on that while Horizon 2 was in the early stagesPretty much this.
I think nobody needs to be blamed in the Horizon case since it's only a 2-3 months delay and can be assigned to covid. A very small delay on a game that looks great and comes from a team who delivered many great games with no big issues or delays. Sony also deliver every year a good and constant amount of 1st and 2nd party games that in the recent years have been selling better than ever, get great reviews and many of them are GOTY winners or candidates.
It's impossible.
Horizon 2 development started in 2017, when the PS5 tech didn't exist and didn't even have its tech specs. They got the first specs during 2018 and didn't get the first devkits until 2019 and not sure if the final devkits and specs were delivered in 2019 or 2020.
So it's impossible they could have most of their crew without working during at least a couple of years and to design their game for an imaginary machine that they didn't know how it was going to be because it was going to use some CPU, GPU, SSD and I/O system that back then didn't exist.
So pretty much it has been developed as a PS4 game during at least 2 or 3 years and after that they started to make it prettier for PS5 at the same time they were completing its development.
Before launch Sony already knew that PS5 wasn't going to sell way faster than the PS4, so in its first year there wasn't going to have a huge userbase there. So to release a big ass AAA like this one only on PS5 would have been pretty much a suicide, specially knowing back in 2020 and probably in 2019 they had almost 100M MAU on PS4. It was too clear that the -originally planned as 1st (and pretty likely at least 2nd) year big ass AAA exclusives- needed to be crosgen. Jimbo went into detail about this in the 'we belive in generations' interview when he explained why they were going to keep supporting PS4 during at least 2 or 3 years after PS5 release.
True, but I think it would have still been good releasing in November. We've seen enough gameplay already to believe that. But, yeah, a few months of polish can't hurt. I much prefer that to the model of, "release it now and finish it via patches over the next several months".Thats not true for HZD FW i can tell you that.
Some things could work faster depending on the employee. But other things that require quick meetings, just getting up and speaking with somebody or feedback can be slowed down by WFH environments. Game development can also require a lot of big downloads and uploads of files which is a lot slower from home. Processes like play testing have to be redesigned completelyAs someone who has transitioned to a full time remote role in my company over the past year, what is it about game development that makes it so difficult? I will admit that the logistics at the beginning were a little tough to figure out, but a year+ later I don't see any reason at all why working remotely should negatively influence development time or quality. This COVID excuse sounds just like that, an excuse. Even if companies are super careful about leaks and what makes it out of the office, you have remote desktop solutions and stuff like WVD that could make it convenient and possible.
I place the blame entirely on devs and their inability to hire properly and manage their employees.
The transition period is another problem. There's all the planning and logistics behind it that needs to be made beforehand, then theres also the workers need to adapt to the new environment and tools, assuming they'll work properly considering how last minute everything needed to be made.As someone who has transitioned to a full time remote role in my company over the past year, what is it about game development that makes it so difficult? I will admit that the logistics at the beginning were a little tough to figure out, but a year+ later I don't see any reason at all why working remotely should negatively influence development time or quality. This COVID excuse sounds just like that, an excuse. Even if companies are super careful about leaks and what makes it out of the office, you have remote desktop solutions and stuff like WVD that could make it convenient and possible.
I place the blame entirely on devs and their inability to hire properly and manage their employees.
This. Equating Horizon's two-month delay (when GG couldn't finish mo-cap because Netherland went into lockdown) to Halo Infinite's one-year delay (because of incomplete content and critical feedback) doesn't make sense.Why can there only be two reasons, and why does it have to be the same one for both games?
The interactivity in a creative environment is a good point. I rarely have to get creative at my job, and I like the extra layer of Teams/Zoom chats to buy me a little space. Then again, I'm in a support role, not a development role.Some things could work faster depending on the employee. But other things that require quick meetings, just getting up and speaking with somebody or feedback can be slowed down by WFH environments. Game development can also require a lot of big downloads and uploads of files which is a lot slower from home. Processes like play testing have to be redesigned completely
Well your second point is why I brought up remote workstations or WVD (Windows Virtual Desktops, now Azure Virtual Desktop I guess). Keep all your heavy lifting equipment and high bandwidth requirement machines either in the cloud or on prem for your office, then just VPN in and work remotely. It removes the performance/connectivity part of the equation 95% of the time. We had remote users that couldn't work with our custom applications from outside the network, even on VPN, so we just published them internally as apps on a WVD portal, and off they go.The transition period is another problem. There's all the planning and logistics behind it that needs to be made beforehand, then theres also the workers need to adapt to the new environment and tools, assuming they'll work properly considering how last minute everything needed to be made.
To give an example, i know someone who switched to home-office due to covid and she was constantly having problems with the tools and apps that were given to her to do her work. They even cycled through different solutions multiple times, in some cases even causing more problems than making things more simple.
I completely agree. Also comparing a multi-platform, multi-player online game with single player, offline title, only on two consoles doesn't make much sense either. Scope of those games is different and circumstances of development are also different. Hopefully both titles live up to the hype.This. Equating Horizon's two-month delay (when GG couldn't finish mo-cap because Netherland went into lockdown) to Halo Infinite's one-year delay (because of incomplete content and critical feedback) doesn't make sense.
Seems a pretty much direct sequel that pretty much continues with pretty similar stuff. So they could have started preproduction even before completing the first game, or as usual to rehash cut stuff from the previous game.Pre production would last quite a while and they also had work on Frozen Wilds so the majority of the team would have been working on that while Horizon 2 was in the early stages
No, but they would need to know its capabilities and tech specs to make the engine, to its size, and the amount of stuff they can put in screen/memory and the streaming speed, the amount of detail (so polycount/textures size/etc) they could put on characters and environment, the type of lighting and shadows, which new techniques will they be able to use (raytracing, 3D audio, maybe global illumination, etc) and which ones aren't needed anymore (normal mapping and similar, maybe baked lighting, etc)... a lot of very important things many level designers, artists, engine programmers, tool programmers and so on need to start working if they remotely want to take advantage of the new machine.They wouldn't need a running alpha prototype on actual dev kits for years into production.
Pretty likely yes, their top AAA devs and specially the other 1st & 2nd party teams who were planning to release a year 1 PS5 games. And in addition to this, many of their feedback and suggestions would have been used by Cerny to design the hardware and ask AMD for certain customizations / optimizations.Guerrilla would also have been one of the first to receive spec goals and dev kits for PS5, and would also have been one of the devs Cerny worked with on the specs for PS5. They could easily work on PC as well while dev kit delivery was being organised. Probably why they ended up porting Horizon to PC with a lot of the work flow being done on PC as well
Game assets are originally made in a higher polycount and texture quality, with more detail than the one you see in gameplay, or even in cinematics. And from that it gets toned down manually to a size that the console can handle it properly.PS5 was always the goal which is why the asset pipeline is so much higher in Horizon 2. We will see what the PS4 version looks like though, if it really does compare well without major cut backs to resolution compared to Horizon 1 or cut backs in assets and quality then you may be right
Its not like virtual desktops are free of hassle either.Well your second point is why I brought up remote workstations or WVD (Windows Virtual Desktops, now Azure Virtual Desktop I guess). Keep all your heavy lifting equipment and high bandwidth requirement machines either in the cloud or on prem for your office, then just VPN in and work remotely. It removes the performance/connectivity part of the equation 95% of the time. We had remote users that couldn't work with our custom applications from outside the network, even on VPN, so we just published them internally as apps on a WVD portal, and off they go.
Point is, the infrastructure and solutions are out there. If devs aren't factoring that in to the budget and taking advantage of it, that's short sighted.
We're talking about video games here, right?
You can wait. It will be OKAY. No one is owed anything at any specific time frame. There are games you can play right now and there will be games you can play in the future. No need to be so impatient.
I heard that the combat was pretty good in that game. In Schreier's new book he talks about how that team had a separate group called the Combat Pit where they focused soley on combat. Been meaning to play the game for a while, the MMO they were working on sounded epic. Anyone play the remaster?Damn, I didnt know you worked on Kingdom Come Deliverence. Thats a gorgeous looking game. Too bad the combat was lame (no offense intended) because as a graphics whore I really wanted to keep playing.
I honestly doubt this
They may have started some work on PS4 dev kits out of necessity but I think it was always going to be a PS5 game and the PS4 decision was made later when Sony realised they wouldn't have enough PS5 units ready to sell what these games need to even at 100% attach rate
Its no coincidence that PS4 games got added back to these games well after announcement. Sony have 10-20 million sellers that they dont want to lose ground on unit sales from
I blame Konami they can't keep getting away with it.Back in the early days of concurrent multiplatform development, one of the biggest reasons exclusives were so highly rated was polish. The single SKU development allowed developers to polish their games far more than multiplatform games from Ubisoft and EA. Nowadays with PC ports, mid gen refreshes and cross gen ports, even first party devs can be working on at least 4 versions of the same game. In Halo Infinite's case, it's literally five versions.
The outrage over PS exclusives going to PC attracted a lot of heat from people who accused fanboys of not wanting others to play their favorite game. Gate keeping so to speak, but lost in the mudslinging was the very basic fact; Multiplatform games simply take longer to make.
Case in point, Halo Infinite. A year long delay. 6 years of dev time. 750 employees. Shipping without coop. Delaying Forge I can understand. I think previous games shipped without forge, but not including campaign coop at launch is simply unacceptable, and you have to wonder if making the game for FIVE platforms caused the team to miss their deadlines. After all, Bungie only made Halo for 1 Xbox console at a time. Let alone 5.
With Horizon, it's 3 versions, but they did develop and support the PC version of Horizon themselves so they concurrently worked on 4 games during these past five years. The port was shipped in a poor state and it took them 6 months to fix all the bugs. And had to put out a statement saying they wont be fixing anymore bugs. Much like Cyperpunk. Who is to say that PC version did not cause this delay? After all, just like Halo Infinite, it's a last gen game. It's not a new IP, but a sequel. It doesn't seem to be a complete reboot like God of War. And yet, it's taken 5 years to make. In the 4 year span from 2009 to 2013, GG shipped KZ2, KZ3 and KZ Shadowfall. 343i took 3 years to make Halo 4. 3 more for Halo 5. These are not inefficient studios. They just had one console and one SKU to worry about back then.
We have all seen that picture of around 50 women at 343i posted here as if 50 out of 750 developers are to be blamed for Halo's dated graphics, delays and lack of coop at launch. But I think we need to take into account the effects of multiplatform development, and put the blame where it lies... on the suits behind the scenes who are willing to delay games, give devs more work and hold back their vision for a few million dollars.
New jiggle physics inbound?i blame aloy's body fat simulation
They've been on x64 architecture since PS4 without porting to PC, their console operating systems are customized Linux based and games on the platform utilize custom tools and interfaces to make development on their platform easier. So I also won't act like it's as easy as pushing the "compile for PC" button.Let's not act like porting a game from playstation to PC is a monumental task. Sony went to PC architecture to make this much easier. It isn't CELL.
Yes, but not when it comes to video games....I think people can definitely wait.Disagree. Time is the single most important metric in life. Why wouldn't people be upset?
I doubt it’s last minute for Horizon, game looks very ps4, at least to me.I think Horizon got delayed because of their last minute decision to put it on PS4, this was the same reason RE8 got delayed. I think this is also why we have not seen anything for the new God of War because that will also now be a cross gen game.
Halo infinite is another story, I think the new engine and COVID really did a number on the development of the game. It was suppose to be out last year and now its coming at in the last month of this year with these still missing.
This might be the case, this way they can charge $70 for the "directors cut" edition that will be exclusive to PS5 like 6-12 months after the original game gets releasedGod of War, yeah - nothing shown because it’s likely getting significantly re-scoped to fit last gen hardware. Back to the drawing board kind of scenario.
I doubt it’s last minute for Horizon, game looks very ps4, at least to me.
God of War, yeah - nothing shown because it’s likely getting significantly re-scoped to fit last gen hardware. Back to the drawing board kind of scenario.
Both games were always going to be on PS4 from the very beginning of development.This might be the case, this way they can charge $70 for the "directors cut" edition that will be exclusive to PS5 like 6-12 months after the original game gets released
You could be right, but I’m not so sure about GOW. There was a next gen only push at one stage as evidenced by Ratchet. Something changed midway. Gran Turismo is rumoured to have been mandated for cross gen late in the dev cycle, was aimed at PS5 originally.Both games were always going to be on PS4 from the very beginning of development.
The bounce of those chubby face cheecks...New jiggle physics inbound?
Look at their choices for cross gen games and next gen only games. Its pretty clear.You could be right, but I’m not so sure about GOW. There was a next gen only push at one stage as evidenced by Ratchet. Something changed midway. Gran Turismo is rumoured to have been mandated for cross gen late in the dev cycle, was aimed at PS5 originally.
Who knows what’s true or not anymore with these clowns.
Trust me, none of that is lost on me, it makes perfect sense. The big bucks are in the install base.Look at their choices for cross gen games and next gen only games. Its pretty clear.
All of these games, (except for Sackboy), have the potential to sell 5-10+ million units lifetime on PS4+5:
- God of War 2, Horizon 2, Spidey Miles, Sackboy
- GT7, MLB, Ghost Director's Cut
- TLOU2 Director's Cut (probably) & TLOU2 online
Thats a lot of extra money they wouldn't leave on the table. (And Sackboy was just a PS4 game anyways.)
While I bet Sony would happy if any of these games sell like 2-3 million units lifetime:
- Ratchet, Returnal, Demon's Souls
- Death Stranding Director's Cut
- Astro, Destruction Allstars
Like they chose to publicly share that Returnal had sold ~ 600k units ... meaning they are happy with that number. If they weren't, they wouldn't have said anything. Every specific sales number Sony puts out for a game is basically a PR statement. They only do it if they think it helps them look good.
A big game like God of War 2 was always gonna be a PS4 game. But the GT7 thing does seem like an outlier tho, it was definitely marketed as PS5 only. So clearly if it is cross gen, it was a reaction to the limited PS5 stock situation, and likely also a choice to increase sales to offset the added development costs of a year long (or longer) delay. That game was clearly supposed to be out by now, but as they said, covid happened.
The only hope on the pc development is that it is handled by a seperate studio after the fact - a port in effect, leaving the creative leads to concentrate on the console.100% Jim is to blame for Horizon delay, Guerrilla devs had to work months to fix the PC version of Horizon and work to make sure the PS4 version is up to par at the same time, if this game was freed as a PS5 only and solo studio project, we would've had it this year and better graphics/mechanics, have fun expectiong more of this in the future, because going forward, PC development will be taken into consideration from the ground up, affecting console development