Denton
Member
Everytime someone says this while actually meaning to say "I couldn't care less", God kills a kitten..and a puppy.
Don't kill kittens and puppies.
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"CD Projekt Red Dev Defends Crunch, Suggests People Have An “Ideological Narrative” Against Them"
Don't kill kittens and puppies.
jonnyp
Member
Yeah, have to laugh every time this topic comes up.
Do you have a quote of them saying this?
Is this the reason for your anti CDPR obsession?
Also are you buying cyberpunk?
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Yes, they perma-banned me because I was on their forum saying that the load times were atrocious. This was over a decade ago.
Since then I’ve watched this company put spin after spin on their own shady tactics. I was seriously surprised that so many gamers were ‘caught out’ by The Witcher 3 downgrade fiasco. I saw that one coming ten miles away.
Will I be buying Cyberpunk 2077?
Absolutely fucking not. As a way of protesting CDPR’s abusive treatment of its own workers I’ll be boycotting the game. Though, actually, now that I think about it, to support the employees, yes, I think I will buy the game. It’ll be a sacrifice, for sure - but I’ll do it for the workers!
notseqi
Member
I like how you did a 180° and moonwalked away.
No wonder we have Trump in office or people thinking Covid19 is not real when I see some of the comments in this thread...
Crunch is NOT acceptable in any circumstance. Crunch is the result or mismanagement or lack or resources, or both. So no way we give crunch a pass. Never.
That double standard to justify crunch when it's a beloved developer like CDPR or Naughty dog doing is despicable.
Crunch is NOT acceptable in any circumstance. Crunch is the result or mismanagement or lack or resources, or both. So no way we give crunch a pass. Never.
That double standard to justify crunch when it's a beloved developer like CDPR or Naughty dog doing is despicable.
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Plague Doctor
Member
Yeah I'll say it again.
If the employees are getting paid well overtime, this shit is game journo drama bait.
If you know mandatory overtime (with overtime pay) is part of the job description, it's on you to accept it or find another job that doesn't have mandatory overtime.
If the employees are getting paid well overtime, this shit is game journo drama bait.
If you know mandatory overtime (with overtime pay) is part of the job description, it's on you to accept it or find another job that doesn't have mandatory overtime.
Truly there are lots of jobs that do this. I've worked with Crane operators, riggers, bobcat drivers, truckers, and loads of other labour industry people over the years and mandatory overtime comes with the job. They all know what they're getting into up front and they are paid well for it. Many of them quite like their jobs partially because of the overtime pay. Personally that sort of thing isn't my bag and back when I did construction I went into areas that didn't have as much mandatory overtime. If the companies are upfront with their expectations and compensate their employees fairly there isn't a lot of ground for complaints.
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B-universe
Banned
Comments which try to overcompensate for the lack of substance by using ellipsis?
Trump is in office because he won the election.
After 4 years you still haven't managed to digest the fact?
Yes, Dear Leader ExKing says so, the world must now comply.
No, you're not Kim Jong-Un of the videogame industry. You don't get to rule over others. Who asked for your permission to crunch?
Who wants to live their life according to what you deem acceptable or unacceptable?
"We"? Who's "we"? Who in Santa Claus's name elected you as their representative? How many of "you" are there? 2?
Quote someone who criticised other AAA companies for crunch and is now defending CDPR.
Do it.
I support the right of developers to crunch if they want to or have signed up for it in all cases, not just for CDPR developers.
Wheat's despicable is the attempt to curtail the freedom of sovereign adults to govern their lives as they want.
Hopefully, no one's life will ever be governed by Mr. ExKing 's diktats.
TheWanderingOgre
Member
North-american very sensible, outraged folks should move to Poland. Then we can talk.
You feel you can state what is and isnt right for countries that couldnt be more different than your own.
No wonder you elect fascist clowns for presidents.
You feel you can state what is and isnt right for countries that couldnt be more different than your own.
No wonder you elect fascist clowns for presidents.
This is a noteworthy post in that you’ve managed to alienate yourself against both sides.
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STARSBarry
Gold Member
Key word here is "not in gaming" I started in the industry and left incredibly quickly because what you described is not what is in gaming.
Unpaid overtime (crunch) is a thing, now I'm in a far less demanding role, but its not gaming related its product management, any overtime is at double pay past 35 hours and triple on a bank holiday/Sunday or double and flexi for the hours worked. All Bank Holidays are leave by default on top of the included 30 days a year AL... like hell did you get that shit working for Atari. You where lucky if you even got holiday 60-70 hour work weeks where common, and honestly taking into account the unpaid overtime completely illegal due to hours worked/hours paid due to mimumum wage law, thats what made me get the hell out.
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Piku_Ringo
Banned
Slurpy2k20
Member
What the fuck does Trump or Covid have to do with a discussion about "crunch" and its complexities?
Give me a fucking break. I guess literally EVERY significant or meaningful thing that has EVER been created in the world was the result of mismanagement or lack of resources, right? Cause I can fucking guarantee you that all innovations, or anything beyond mediocrity, is not developed by those content to work 9-5 and not a moment more.
MiguelItUp
Member
Exactly.
I know I've said it a ton now, but the AAA game industry crunches, and that's really all there is to it. I get so heated on this topic as I've crunched so many times in the past and majority of the folks just pushed and did their jobs. Including myself. Nowadays some people can't accept the fact that maybe that area of work just isn't for them so they make a stink about it as they want to have their cake and eat it too. I mean, it's the harsh reality of "just because you love video games, doesn't necessary mean you'll enjoy developing them."
A lot of people would love to remove the crunch normalcy from the AAA game industry, the issue is that it's so ingrained that no one really knows how/where to start. Instead, they focus on the projects themselves, and just try to make the best title they possibly can. But it's so annoying that there are folks out there that don't agree with things, and rather than talking to their team about it they just run to some journalist to give a "scoop." That's so incredibly shitty to me.
Elcid
Banned
And we’re done here.
CloudNull
Banned
Good luck being successful in life without crunch o7.
That's dumb mentality.
It's not because crunch has been tolerated and enforced that we should accept it.
With that mindset, slavery would still be legalized...
DJT123
Member
ripeavocado
Banned
Based CD Projekt dev, I am buying Cyberpunk 2077 day 1
Self
Member
I must disappoint you. We work from 8-4 (on point) and are a very, very successful company. I know that many of our competitors do crunch, but we are still ahead of them. If a company is well structured, well balanced, there is simply no need to crunch. Punctuality, order and diligence is paramount for success, not crunch.
Codswallop_
Neophyte
They are being very well compensated for their time in accordance with Polish law, and I will support their hard work by buying this game day one.
Woo-Fu
Banned
Crunch is management failure, plain and simple. Either you didn't draft a reasonable production schedule or you didn't manage your people properly to meet that schedule.
As far as this being an ideological attack on CDPR, sure it is, from people whose ideology doesn't include treating their employees like shit.
As far as this being an ideological attack on CDPR, sure it is, from people whose ideology doesn't include treating their employees like shit.
B-universe
Banned
Do you understand the basic but fundamental difference between slavery and the uncoerced voluntary relationship between employer and employee?
I have my doubts that you do.
Here's Polish game developer, Adrian Chmielarz , currently working on The Astronauts discussing crunch (source):
Four reasons, 4, f-o-u-r, not one.
Feel free to address his remarks with just as much fervour.
Sure and when it's all said and done and the schedule has not been met and you can't afford an additional third delay, what do you do?
You crunch.
Mandating 6 extra days of paid overtime plus rewarding employees with 10% of the profits is treating employees like shit?
Bravo.
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Woo-Fu
Banned
And all of those can be handled with better planning up front. And when even after all of that you can't meet the deadlines you've set perhaps beating the employees isn't the only option on the table? Just perhaps?
And yeah beating your wife now and then is fine as long as you bought her a nice house.
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DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
Everything can be handled with better planning up front. That's like saying the way to reduce deaths is to ensure a higher % of people stay alive.
Crunch is management failure, if we want to get lost in theory and semantics, but it is to the benefit of employees. Management would love to cut costs and avoid the overtime. Within the world of crunch exist promotions, bonuses, and chances to shine. Everyone is firing on all cylinders, trying to deliver the best product they can. Like athletes who are paid to be on TV and to work daily to maintain that performance, these creators of worldwide, billion dollar products are paid (extra!) to push that last mile.
B-universe
Banned
Yes, not having cancer is preferable to having cancer. What do you do when you have cancer?
And you didn't address the other points.
If I remember correctly, It's been reported that overtime is paid 50% above regular time. Now, people who won't stop about how CDPR is treating devs "like shit" surely can do basic arithmetic.
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TheWanderingOgre
Member
I dont discriminate. I hate everyone.
YeulEmeralda
Member
I don't know man, this whole issue seems to be mostly a Western gaming media thing. Does anyone at Kotaku even speak Japanese or have any Japanese inside sources? Nintendo keeps their cards close to their chest.
DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
yeah, some people need to go back and read stories about famous game creators and how they stayed up all night, smoking cigs, drinking pot after pot of coffee, staring at that crt monitor to tweak yet another tiny aspect of the game. Crunch is at the heart of many classics. Not only in videogames, but in all corners of entertainment. Writers are fondly praised for their alcohol and drug addictions as a show of "dedication" to the craft. If anything, the spirit of crunch is animated by the audience, not by the bosses or managers, who would love to come in under budget and pocket a promotion + bonus for work well done.
Cynically, I believe the battle against crunch in videogames has nothing to do with videogames, but is another ideological avenue for zealots to preach marxist economics. These are the same crowd that hate hard work, said that Gamers Are Dead, and despise being told to "git gud" (not referring to anyone in this thread, but to the general push to "expose" crunch).
And not-so-cynically, watching grown adults whine about crunch in their entertainment product is a crystal-clear confirmation of their sheltered, privileged lives. I've had to work overtime digging human shit out of trenches and basements, hauling alternating buckets of piss and concrete up stairs, and I didn't think much of it. Work isn't meant to be easy. Making exceptional entertainment that stands above the rest will naturally require hard work.
B-universe
Banned
"Beating the employees"?
6 additional days of paid overtime is "beating the employees"?
Employment is voluntary. A beating is not.
What's with the absurd language?
This isn't even hyperbole. This is Operetta.
You can lie through your teeth all you want and still 6 days of paid overtime is not analogous in any shape or form to "beating employees" , abusing your wife, or any other ludicrous figure of speech to that effect you can come possibly up with.
Nothing of what you write can be taken seriously.
Nothing.
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Archvile82
Banned
In manufacturing crunch has always been a thing, a product reaches near end of test phase, a bug is found you will have everyone having to work crazy OT to retest and get reliability numbers up.
I don't get why one particular industry get singled out when this is a thing in any job.
When a job starts to effect one's health then it's up to the individual to think if that job is right for them.
I have also noted a trend with developers is that they get into the coding and will willingly spend hours tweaking regardless of how late they end up staying in the office. Most cases they stay late even when not being asked to.
I don't get why one particular industry get singled out when this is a thing in any job.
When a job starts to effect one's health then it's up to the individual to think if that job is right for them.
I have also noted a trend with developers is that they get into the coding and will willingly spend hours tweaking regardless of how late they end up staying in the office. Most cases they stay late even when not being asked to.
vito_don_corleone_
Banned
Who TF is this weirdo?
notseqi
Member
Jim Sterling. From what I hear, going slightly off the rails in the last few weeks.
Plague Doctor
Member
Games' new media is a desperate attempt to get into political news media and their tenure in games journalism is an open audition.
For those in the back, being paid highly (time and a half/etc/etc) for overtime work in which it is known, upfront, overtime happens as part of the job is not exploitation. Ask any other professions. Workforce exploitation is not paying extra them for overtime work and expecting it (which is not the case here).
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Eric187
Banned
Do these people who complain about such things understand in any capacity how the real world works? Damn it must be nice to bitch about things because you’re either A too lazy to aspire to do anything with you’re life that requires effort or B are well off enough to have mommy and daddy take care of everything.
Eric187
Banned
Some fuck off who doesn’t have shit to do all day but complain about how hard people have to work because lazy fucks like him don’t understand that concept
FunkMiller
Member
Someone who used to have some very good, insightful opinions about the video games industry, and would surely still be capable of them, if he wasn't so mired in the identity politics and playground politics of the woke agenda that's poisoning our public discourse.
James Stanton would probably benefit greatly from coming to terms with himself a little more, and not being so easily influenced by those around him.
Papacheeks
Banned
I wanted to put another food for thought that I think Jason's being disengenous in his assessment from his sources on CD PRj RED, Game informer who has had close talks with the studio and people shed light that Jason is basically pooling a Polish studio into the same culture that AMerica has with studios.
And it puts a light on people like Jason who use to be about just the news and not the drama, woke bullshit conversation that he's trying to attach to it.
I think Jason needs to address some shit and understand that there are cultural differences in how studios are run and treat talent.
I take it you've never worked on software before? I think there is a difference between home stretch crunch and longterm crunch that is something that gets pushed upon people without extra compensation. This instance Jason is trying to make headlines and not understanding that everyone is getting paid for every extra hour, the team all agreed on this 6 day work week instead of having the option to delay. They also are getting 10% bonus in 2020 with sales.
There's a cultural difference, like if this was Activision I COULD see the issue especially if it came from a contract worker who get treated like shit. But crunch happens in really difficult mediums. Movie/games/entertainment all have it.
And even with the best management, best tools and super great efficient teams you will have a build up to launch crunch. ANd thats something that happens when your working with code.
I have a couple friends who work in Cyber security software development, and they work overtime all the time to get their builds to deadline. THey make bank, and when their product launches everyone celebrates.
There are differences in types of crunch, and also culture at studios.
And it puts a light on people like Jason who use to be about just the news and not the drama, woke bullshit conversation that he's trying to attach to it.
I think Jason needs to address some shit and understand that there are cultural differences in how studios are run and treat talent.
I take it you've never worked on software before? I think there is a difference between home stretch crunch and longterm crunch that is something that gets pushed upon people without extra compensation. This instance Jason is trying to make headlines and not understanding that everyone is getting paid for every extra hour, the team all agreed on this 6 day work week instead of having the option to delay. They also are getting 10% bonus in 2020 with sales.
There's a cultural difference, like if this was Activision I COULD see the issue especially if it came from a contract worker who get treated like shit. But crunch happens in really difficult mediums. Movie/games/entertainment all have it.
And even with the best management, best tools and super great efficient teams you will have a build up to launch crunch. ANd thats something that happens when your working with code.
I have a couple friends who work in Cyber security software development, and they work overtime all the time to get their builds to deadline. THey make bank, and when their product launches everyone celebrates.
There are differences in types of crunch, and also culture at studios.
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notseqi
Member
He's certainly not staying a minute longer than necessary to put his drivel out.
Gosh I hate this skunk face
recursive
Member
The dumb fucks have no issue buying food at the grocery store that came from a farmer working 16 hour days 7 days a week.
Piku_Ringo
Banned
You gotta give the guy time to adjust his glasses in anger, and come up with a way to spin that in his favor.