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"CD Projekt Red Dev Defends Crunch, Suggests People Have An “Ideological Narrative” Against Them"
CloudNull
Banned
Have you ever had to study for a final? That's crunch. Have you ever had to take time outside of normal work hours to learn something new? One could argue that is crunch. This no crunch mentality makes people weak and people are free to choose what company they work for.
I would love to work for SpaceX but I like my personnel life so I know that option is off the table. Its okay though because I respect people that do give their all to what they are building. I appreciate that CD Project Red has cut down the amount of crunch and I appreciate even more the workers that have sacrificed their time to make this. I hope the game sells tons and the employees make bank.
Soulblighter31
Banned
You mean that dipshit schreier made another madeup and cherry picked story where there was none ? No way, im in utter shock. It only happened dozens of other times, for years.
CloudNull
Banned
Just stop.... you are correlating working over time to beating your wife.... How did you get your brain so smooth?
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B-universe
Banned
Lesson for the future:
It will be widely known by the time Witcher 4 leaves pre-production that, if necessary, crunch will in fact happen at CDPR. I hope the contacts clearly reflect that in writing, so Jason will not attempt to portray developer's as helpless Damsels in distress he's more than happy to play the role of unsolicited trade unionist for.
Soulblighter31
Banned
Reeeeeera licking jason's ass as per the ussual, of course. This dumbfuck's only goal in life seems to be to fabricate dramatic situations that for the most part dont exist.
MiguelItUp
Member
Jesus Christ dude, what are you even going on about? Lmao.
Moving along...
Crunch may not be "acceptable", but it has most certainly existed in the AAA industry for decades now and will continue to unless there's some gigantic AAA industry push against it. It has absolutely nothing to do with mismanagement or lack of resources. Sometimes it has to do with the schedule being pushed up, high demands from the publisher/investors, etc. The thing is that there are a TON of variables, and it's not nearly as black and white as apparently the majority assume. It's not some simplistic fix or crunch wouldn't have existed a long time ago.
A good developer and publisher will be transparent with their teams when potential crunch is on the rise. A good developer and publisher will do everything they can to ensure that the crunch is not nearly as long and chaotic as it good be. An incredible developer and publisher will compensate their teams when they are crunching. Almost no one does that.
YeulEmeralda
Member
Being a game dev making videogames at CDPro in Poland beats what hundreds of thousands of Polish migrant workers have to suffer through abroad every single day so I get the cognitive dissonance from this guy.
Slurpy2k20
Member
Schrier, you assclown, work by definition entails "not participating on the home front" to various degrees. That email proves nothing, especially that the employees are some kind of oppressed slaves as you make them out to be. All it proves is that the person who wrote it has some class and tact. But when you contribute absolutely nothing to society, like Jason does, and instead spread FUD only for self promotion, then I can understand the complete lack of comprehension about people willing to work hard (and being well paid for it) to achieve something great.
chris121580
Member
This is just a lose lose situation for CDPR. Either they crunch and the losers like Schreier try to burn them at the stake or they don’t crunch and delay the game again upsetting gamers. I feel like crunch has always been a big part of game development and if you can’t handle it, find a new job. No one is forcing you to be there and work in the industry
B-universe
Banned
Oh, the Evil Corporations (TM)!
Those evil evil entities without which the videogame industry wouldn't exist.
How dare Adam Badowski write a letter asking for an once of extra effort in this very final stretch? How dare he attempt to generate enthusiasm and motivate people in what amounts to a collective effort involving hundreds of developers over many years?
Why does he have to sign the letter? Why can't he just post cheap hot takes like "Evil Corporations _ (fill in the banks)" from the comfort of anonymity?
Absolutely can't stand it over there at CDPR?
Quit.
MiguelItUp
Member
Exactly! It has! At least in the AAA industry. At my first industry gig I worked with some awesome and talented folks from studios like 3D Realms, Raven, id, Activision, Acclaim, etc. They all told me stories about crunches they experienced when I was still in middle and high school. Some worse than others.
It's generally folks that are new to the AAA industry and don't realize (or can't accept the fact) that it was always a part of it. But rather than leave video games (because it's an industry they've always wanted to work in) they make a stink and try to change it themselves. It's really shitty and honestly pretty damn entitled.
At one of the previous AAA studios I worked for there was an employee that was fresh out of college and made multiple stinks just because she "wasn't happy with the experience" when it wasn't up to her. Not to mention everyone else there was more than content, if not very happy, lmao. Instead of her just quietly accepting it and quitting. Or even just trying to have a heart to heart with her superior, she created a huge stir in multiple departments and it became an overdramatic situation.
Good on her! I don't blame her. I mean, she's essentially getting toxic messages as a result of his retarded ass article.
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Lanrutcon
Member
Oh hey, I see you don't work in corporate and completely missed the point.
But good on you for typing that up, champ.
B-universe
Banned
How do you know I don't work "In corporate" and how is that of any relevance?
What is the point I missed?
Lanrutcon
Member
My comment was about the corporate environment. Yes, perhaps it is relevant that you know something about the subject. Having worked in there? Could help!
Corporate speak. The way that letter is laid out, the Hallmark card as designed by committee. The sincerity without solutions. The unmissed opportunity to market a product.
Saw it earlier this year with retrenchments. I swear there's an app out there to generate those things.
I will never forget his take on the Diablo Immortal incident.
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notseqi
Member
This thread would be the same, but reflecting different positions, if CDPR delayed the game again.
B-universe
Banned
I'm not going to comment on my intimacy with the corporate world. You're entirely free to assume what's best tailored to suit your position, though
And all of that was in the post of yours I replied to?
Fascinating.
I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't write the letter himself, though, no doubt, he fully stands behind its fundamental content. Corporate lingo is like wildfire and nowhere is that clearer than in the output of HR departments.
Additionally, Badowski is not a native speaker. But let's break it down, shall we:
"Sincerity without solutions"
Fact #1: the game has already been delayed not once, but twice.
Fact #2: Console launch window is holiday 2020.
He claims he had no other choice but to mandate crunch.
Please provide evidence he did
"The unmissed opportunity to market a product"
CD Project RED is at the top of their game, the AAA RPG game.
Feel free to be cynical about it and suggest you can see though the machinations of corpos who, while they can't fool you, they can certainly trust themselves to be able to fool 800 devs, give or take.
Is this what your post boils down to? You don't like the style in which the letter is written?
Because I'm struggling to hit that motherlode of substance.
You're mad about the familiar style.
Roger.
Raven117
Member
Whatever. Get bent haters.
With respect to a company like CDProjektRed its up to them how they treat their employees (its not like these are no option sweatshop workers, these are skilled professionals). If they want to crunch and retain their quality of games and retain talent, go right on head.
Either way. Day 1.
With respect to a company like CDProjektRed its up to them how they treat their employees (its not like these are no option sweatshop workers, these are skilled professionals). If they want to crunch and retain their quality of games and retain talent, go right on head.
Either way. Day 1.
Lanrutcon
Member
No, no. Not playing that game. Not reading that wall you felt the need to write just because you didn't get the original post.
You could have just wrote "Oh. I don't work in that environment so I don't get what you're trying to say". There. Short and sweet. You're welcome.
And what kind of pompous tool writes "Fascinating." unironically.
B-universe
Banned
Not playing Cyberpunk 2077?
Your loss, I suppose.
Please.
This is what you originally wrote:
Stop pretending you wrote a one-line manifesto against corporate speak.
Sure. You patent that corpo detector asap!
Oh, the freakin' irony!
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GhostOfTsu
Banned
He really does look like a rat and his wife looks like Pepper from American Horror Story. Sad.
Lanrutcon
Member
CasperDarling
Member
Totally. The mascot of Resetera strikes again.
B-universe
Banned
That'd be more than what you got by not reading but nonetheless replying to my post.
Don't you have something to contribute to the thread other than your gloated-about world-class expert detection of fellow corporate slaves? My commiserations for being part of a world you apparently despise.
I can't relate!
Back on topic,
Interesting choice of words here, because of the previous tweet where he suggested Crunch was not moral and boycotting probably legitimate.
Activism is directly incompatible with journalism. The moment an activist stumbles upon a fact that doesn't reinforce his views, he'll either morph into a journalist proper or ignore or misreport the fact.
CasperDarling
Member
They should have crunched harder to have the Series X/ PS5 upgrade patches ready day 1
Lanrutcon
Member
Still going, eh?
You're going to have to stop being sore about what I posted at some point, but congratulations on getting back on topic.
<insert SchReeeeier tweet here>
Boy, is Jason ever a dumbass! (I thought Kotaku closed down, to be honest?)
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B-universe
Banned
I'm on my fifth Red Bull here, while I slave away the rest of the morning chained to the desk, crunching numbers on Excel.
I can go on all day.
Please refrain from explicit references to your sex life, with brazen language such as "sore".
Appreciated.
Jason's no longer at Kotaku.
He's moved on to Bloomberg.com.
He has connections and if and when he reports the facts I'll continue to praise him. The moment he behaves like an activist, and since I oppose his ideology, I'll criticize him.
It's very straightforward.
Enjoy your day.
Papacheeks
Banned
Reset is a shit show on this topic.
Like there are legit issues specifically in the entertainment industry in it's exploitive nature and under paid employee's. But acting that even with a solid management team, great work flow, great pay, and great life/work balance, you will not have some sort of crunch even if it's short term is super naïve at best.
Mandatory crunch is the thing I believe Jason is trying to shine a light on, but in my opinion this has been an issue for a long time. And it has to do with the companies themselves. Glad he's shining a light on it like other people are, but his inability to at least have some form of dialogue with different people is not the best look.
It's the industry itself that has to change, and to me that's where it starts getting political and take it from someone who works at a news station you can't be both.
If you want to be a news journalists then thats where your opinion or words end as at the end of the reporting/article. Jason's issue is he through his social media has a stance because of his political opinion on how the right way to talk about topics.
But having it out in the open like he helped expose is where you end it. And if more information from other people come out to add or discuss said topic you should not be so against it.
You don't have to be in the conversation, you can just say I was contacted by employee's who wanted to shed light on a big issue. But then dont go trying to say all crunch is bad. Mandatory crunch and crunch culture is bad.
Crunch happens on mid-term papers all the time, and for students its a learning experience to better manage their time.
But the thing is when you work in software that constantly gets updated, changed, there is going to be some form of crunch to fix issues and get it to where it needs to be.
I think his context is what was the issue, which he seems to be talking a little more about.
Like there are legit issues specifically in the entertainment industry in it's exploitive nature and under paid employee's. But acting that even with a solid management team, great work flow, great pay, and great life/work balance, you will not have some sort of crunch even if it's short term is super naïve at best.
Mandatory crunch is the thing I believe Jason is trying to shine a light on, but in my opinion this has been an issue for a long time. And it has to do with the companies themselves. Glad he's shining a light on it like other people are, but his inability to at least have some form of dialogue with different people is not the best look.
It's the industry itself that has to change, and to me that's where it starts getting political and take it from someone who works at a news station you can't be both.
If you want to be a news journalists then thats where your opinion or words end as at the end of the reporting/article. Jason's issue is he through his social media has a stance because of his political opinion on how the right way to talk about topics.
But having it out in the open like he helped expose is where you end it. And if more information from other people come out to add or discuss said topic you should not be so against it.
You don't have to be in the conversation, you can just say I was contacted by employee's who wanted to shed light on a big issue. But then dont go trying to say all crunch is bad. Mandatory crunch and crunch culture is bad.
Crunch happens on mid-term papers all the time, and for students its a learning experience to better manage their time.
But the thing is when you work in software that constantly gets updated, changed, there is going to be some form of crunch to fix issues and get it to where it needs to be.
I think his context is what was the issue, which he seems to be talking a little more about.
Your aren't this stupid, so stop acting like you are.
"Better planning" doesn't mean anything in software. You can't plan for every bug and every delay. You can't perfectly plan out the development of every feature or milestone in a project.
You are asking for the impossible.
So they banned you, for probably legit reasons considering how you act in this thread and many other CDPR threads, and since then we've had to put up with the fallout?
Get over it dude
notseqi
Member
That Valve-handbook worming it's way from creative to actual implementation work.
FunkMiller
Gold Member
The cringeworthy stupidity of the way Schreir has gone about this is that there IS a problem with crunch in the video games industry - but he’s so keen on the big GOTCHA moment for his tribe of followers that he hadn’t done proper due diligence, and probably targeted the wrong thing. Therefore rendering any validity his opinion may have held null and void 
Papacheeks
Banned
I work with custom scripts, graphic packages and run multiple systems that all run various tweaked software custom to our station. When we do upgrades to some of these systems we've had total meltdowns that literally took us off air, aka we lost a shit ton of money that day.
We had the team who were already working on a new build work overnight and throughout the week to get a new build to us that fixed the issue we had. And the build wasn't suppose to go even out to beta for another 2 months.
Crunch happens in certain circumstances, but mandatory crunch is a shit environment. Crunch culture should not be a thing, GAmes and Entertainment are the big outliers where this has become part of the culture and is the root to the problem. But the issue is the companies owned by stock holders.
Hope there is either some form of unionizing or better deals being made for salaried workers. But again this is a company by company basis. I have friends who worked for large game publishers and had a great experience. But their role was something that was specific position. Others literally worked at one for 6 months and literally changed careers.
Not the whole industry is a bad of dicks. But a lot of the big players CD Prj Red included have issues in how they pay, treat and run their business.
Friends of mine have heard nothing but horror stories from that place.
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Actually, they banned every single person who was critical of The Witcher’s release, which was quite frankly atrocious. We had a nice community going at their forum for years before the game’s release, and when we were critical of the ‘final build’ CDPR, instead of taking that criticism and doing something with it, just banned everyone.
Also, they HAVE acted shady since then - don’t tell me how I should or shouldn’t react to that. You clearly think CDPR is the gamer-friendly developer they’ve portrayed themselves as. I don’t.
I'm not sure what your point is?
What is this based off of? A six week crunch?
Everything I've heard and seen from CDPR is that they pay well, and obviously their buisness is well run.
Get over it. Witcher 1 came out over a decade ago. I don't care if they banned people on their boards. For all I know, you guys acted like trolls and got the axe.
It has nothing to do with Cyberpunk, and a six week crunch. It's a weak excuse to justify your silly arguments against CDPR. Acting as if every normal decision they make is secretly a "shady" decision.
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B-universe
Banned
I agree with the above and can attest to it.
However, this is absolutely irrelevant to the whole Crunch topic.
You're sure you don't want to caveat that remark?
Why?
Are you the poster that uses Shouldn't with Crunch and finally doesn't leave it at that?
CDPR is what it is today because it's gone public.
Personally, I hope for world peace and creamier soft-serves.
Indeed. The best is for misfits to find something else, including starting their own studio where all these evil practices will magically evaporate, they'll cut a profit and the AAA ambitious games are decent.
Detail the ways in which CDPR behaves poorly, regarding wages, culture and management.
What's the rotation rate over there?
Would like to put a figure to your claim.
Papacheeks
Banned
I will play devils advocate that CD PRJ was not the same company they are now. They were very scrappy, and were doing porting jobs up till the development of the witcher. And I heard that not many people were being paid while making that game. Which is the case when you are starting out working on something big, with very little money from the parent company. WHich was atari at the time. Once they made a deal with WB for Witcher 2 on xbox 360 they got a much larger influx of cash that they were able to pay people. After witcher 3 people were getting paid, but issue still stem over there, especially for people in lower positions.
I take it you dont work in this industry?
Or have close relatives/friends who do?
I have a bunch, and 2 of them literally left the industry all together.
Reasons being mainly crunch/life/work, and pay.
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notseqi
Member
It's probably not all glory, but what I hear from people starting out in the industry, nothing is. You set goals to achieve them and have to set different goals once you are able to admit that they are far out.
As long as the additional day gets compensated and they have the freedom EU workers tend to have I am willing to accept the 'crunch' (I hate that word) for the time limit they have set. Not that I have a say, just for the sake of this argument.
B-universe
Banned
Save it.
This is just the second time in less than 30 minutes that someone tries to pull the "I work in the industry therefore" card.
If you can't be bothered to check what an Appeal to Authority logical fallacy is, at least explain your stance, so we can talk about it.
For all I care and is relevant to the topic, you're team manager at the top AAA studio of wherever you live. I grant you that. Your friends are all AAA developers. I grant you that. Your relatives are in the industry. I grant you that as well.
Now can you spend nearly as much time explaining your position?
Thank you!
Lanrutcon
Member
I think we should see other people.
Papacheeks
Banned
Mandatory crunch is not something you want in a software environment. It sets a precident where it becomes part of the culture and when that happens more is asked for no compensation. And thats what has been happening in the industry for some time now, and is what mainly Jason and few others are trying to shed light on.
There is going to be some form of crunch towards the end or post launch to get things fixed. But that 100% should not be expected and should be compensated for those who choose to crunch.
In a perfect world we want everyone to have a great work/life ratio with getting paid well for the work they do if they are experienced and worth their salary As long as people are being treated well, compensated, and crunch is something that is optional I think thats the best way.
I mean if they can complete a game with very little to no crunch except at the end to go gold, then thats a great place to be. But not everything comes together like that, not every team is a dream team, no every engine goes smoothly, and game code is super delicate.
Something Jason doesn't touch on.
I've said my position. And I've said in terms of my experience in crunch with software developers what and where I stand. You sir need to chill the fuck out.
If you dont understand that literally there were people 10 or so years ago at EA who literally had mental breakdowns, and had marriages ruined because the culture around their said studio encouraged them to stay crazy late, a lot of times without extra over time pay.
Thats shitty.
And it was all over the industry, especially in places like poland where they are not a well off Country.
If people are treated fairly, and compensated well and are able to have mostly a good life/work balance having a lead up to launch/post support crunch is ok as long as it;s not mandatory.
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notseqi
Member
Mandatory is out, as I said: 'for the time limit they have set.'
I agree with the rest. It's not feasible though, human condition and all that. Hope they are reminded of their fandom when it comes to deadlines in the future.
Halo is Back
Member
I crunch almost every week in college to meet deadlines. Please cry for me
Papacheeks
Banned
Not even remotely what we are talking about.