Support NeoGAF

[alabtrosMyster]

Lower quality assets on a more powerful PC?? I don't know if it's Sony's SSD CoolAid doing its work, but PCs don't have a lack of memory that the consoles are making up for, so how can anyone come to this conclusion?

You still need to fill up that memory.... even if the cord is longer you still get to the end of it anyway.

 

[a multicultural team of v]

"third parties will never take advantage of the SSD" doesn't take into account the large number of third party games that are PS4 exclusive anyway, and as result actually will take advantage of the SSD.

If anything it will just give Japanese devs less of an incentive to do late ports since it might take additional work.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

This makes me want to see a direct comparison between the demo on XsX vs PS5 even more. If the difference actually is something we can clearly notice with our own eyes, I’d be pretty impressed.

 

[Knitted Knight]

"third parties will never take advantage of the SSD" doesn't take into account the large number of third party games that are PS4 exclusive anyway, and as result actually will take advantage of the SSD.

If anything it will just give Japanese devs less of an incentive to do late ports since it might take additional work.

It was already bad as it's. It looks to become worse if PS5 is a sales success.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

This makes me want to see a direct comparison between the demo on XsX vs PS5 even more. If the difference actually is something we can clearly notice with our own eyes, I’d be pretty impressed.

Put in mind that PS5 demo was more of a show off, it was using raw 8K assets, uncompressed, with insane 16K shadows! The shockingly amazing Quixel Rebirth trailer was using -5.3x less quality with 4K assets compressed by 25%:





Would any other system be capable of doing like PS5? No, but it can scale down accordingly.

 

[Knitted Knight]

This makes me want to see a direct comparison between the demo on XsX vs PS5 even more. If the difference actually is something we can clearly notice with our own eyes, I’d be pretty impressed.

Spiderman is the perfect title to show it all of off. Much better than an open world game like Horizon or even a racing game like GT - both of which will also benefit. However don't be surprised if you see the argumentation be reduced to: "there was nothing shown that can't theoretically be done on this console/hardware as well - I don't trust Sony/x Dev"
- the prove me wrong type denials aka the UE5 shitstorm all over again. It's gonna be a long generation for some folks.

 

[Psykodad]

They're doing it the smart way this time around. Instead of random LOD's pop ins or excess polygon count that you can't see on screen, you can shoot for a polygon/frame for more predictable outcomes and sustainable. All platforms should benefit from that, but will scale according to how fast they can stream things. Actually 20 million polygons per frame is quite excessive, it's above native 6K theoretically, but provides much cleaner final image closer to real life footage.

You would need at least 1 polygon per frame to mimic similar results but with less, meaning 8.5 million instead of 20 million (4K is 8.5 million).

That demo was crunching 4.7 polygons per frame per pixel (1440p, ~4.2 megapixels). Anti-aliasing is out of the window as well, I guess.

Cool, I think I get it. So basically PS5 could push those 20M pixels to get a much cleaner image, or settle for those 8.5M and save on data they could spend on other stuff?

 

[geordiemp]

Lower quality assets on a more powerful PC?? I don't know if it's Sony's SSD CoolAid doing its work, but PCs don't have a lack of memory that the consoles are making up for, so how can anyone come to this conclusion?

How are you going to stream 10 GB/s of data every frame for best quality assets with low latency and driver overhead ?

You will either need massive RAM to store everything or take a cut to the quality of those assets.

What is your logic to the PC Cool aid ? How much memory will you need for a game that could be easily 100 GB.

How could someone think they could have 100 GB of memory is what is puzzling.

Just using your words back at you.

 

[MasterCornholio]

You are contradicting yourself.

I meant games specifically designed to take full advantage of the systems hardware like exclusives for example.

Multiplats will still benefit from the PS5s I/O system.

 

[thebigmanjosh]

This is the only part I don't really get. UE5 will handle LOD as well, right? Isn't that based on data size too?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question, but since the geometry is virtualized in real time, authoring LODs is no longer needed in the traditional sense as it will happen on the fly according to data throughput.

 

[UnNamed]

This could explain UE5 running on a laptop.

 

[geordiemp]

This makes me want to see a direct comparison between the demo on XsX vs PS5 even more. If the difference actually is something we can clearly notice with our own eyes, I’d be pretty impressed.

Dont think you will, I think MS will be very quiet about fast streaming ability until they come up a revised file storage and streaming solution that is ready.

If I am correct you will hear silence from MS.

 

[Journey]

How did you come to the conclusion that every PC has a RAM pool larger or even matching that of next consoles? How many gaming PC's we talking..... lets pull numbers out of our behind? 2 million PC's, 3 million? 10 million... Not to mention the bottlenecked IO's etc...

The hec you talking about?

Are we talking about common denominator PCs now? If I have a PC with a 2080Ti and 32GB of system ram, I'm pretty sure I have more memory than next gen consoles. You're also forgetting that these assets that are being streamed shouldn't be confused with what the GPU/CPU can draw. A mid tier GPU with twice the ram of a 2080TI will not perform better, that's not how it works.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Cool, I think I get it. So basically PS5 could push those 20M pixels to get a much cleaner image, or settle for those 8.5M and save on data they could spend on other stuff?

Yes, that's why I think it's more like a stress test, as the RAM was used to the max. Personally, something like Quixel's breathtaking Rebirth trailer would satisfy anyone, with 5.3x times less quality than the 8K, Hollywood-level assets with 16K shadows used in the UE5 demo for PS5.

 

[recursive]

You are contradicting yourself. For multiplatform games, devs won't build their games around a single SSD or I/O. They just use the PC SSD as a baseline and call it a day, so that would mean better loading time for PS5, but not better textures. Devs won't create new textures just for a single platform.

Anyway, we will see as soon as the multiplatform games arrive.



yes and thats when devs will use PC SSD as the lowest common denominator and call it a day. No different gameplay, or textures on PS5/XSX. Only better loading times.

Devs create textures accessible only on pc all the time. I don't see how this is different.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

I should add, it would be cool to compare the the final image between the two consoles if the XsX was able to run it at a higher resolution with maybe more from Lumen vs PS5’s better assets (or is it just more assets?) and more from Nanite

 

[ethomaz]

I think I'm starting to understand why Sony wanted to lead with the Unreal demo.

They probably could have shown their first party stuff months ago but with the perceivable spec advantage to Xbox they want to show that multiplats can also be developed to take advantage of the I/O they invested so heavily in so they could temper those that would say multiplats would be better on Xbox. To do that, they had to get the biggest 3rd party engine dev on board out the gate.

I'm expecting the first party to be more advanced than what Epic has put together. I'm expecting them to heavily leverage primitive shaders to create true procedural unlimited detail at close range and more advanced lighting, physics and particle effects than Epic showed.

Epic choose PS5 to demo... Sony didn’t lead anything... they didn’t even post anything related in social media.

 

[Psykodad]

Yes, that's why I think it's more like a stress test, as the RAM was used to the max. Personally, something like Quixel's breathtaking Rebirth trailer would satisfy anyone, with 5.3x times less quality than the 8K, Hollywood-level assets with 16K shadows used on the UE5 demo for PS5.

I take it then that PS5 could run that demo pushing less polygons, but at similar perceivable quality and render more assets on screen?

Or is that going to be bottlenecked by the GPU?

Edit:

Thinking about it some more, this question might not make any sense.

 

[ethomaz]

This could explain UE5 running on a laptop.

Scaled down...

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I take it then that PS5 could run that demo pushing less polygons, but at similar perceivable quality and render more assets on screen?

Or is that going to be bottlenecked by the GPU?

Edit:

Thinking about it some more, this question might not make any sense.

Now that's a tricky question, but overall yes. You would prefer more things going on, and it's not clear if moving characters or assets could leverage the nanite tech, so far that character was fully rendering no matter how close or far you are from her. UE5 is still in alpha/beta and should sort things out later on as they've said that they're aiming for solid 60fps on that demo, and it's mainly doing around 40fps to provide solid, locked 30fps. I'm more than sure Decima engine and other SWWS engines are doing something better at the moment as it's been at least 4 years in the making of PS5.

 

[Jigsaah]

Well that was unnecessary since no third party devs will take advantage of the faster SSD anyway

Is this because of the 3rd parties doing multiplatform games? Cause that's the only reason I can think of why this would be true.

I mean apart from loading times, they can't exactly create a separate game specifically for the SSD I guess.

 

[VideodromeX]

These PS5 SSD news are so boring.

 

[Handy Fake]

These PS5 SSD news are so boring.

Thank God you clicked on the thread with "PS5 SSD" in the title then.

 

[geordiemp]

These PS5 SSD news are so boring.

Yup its going to be a long and fun generation when some just cant accept ps5 is better at stuff, its just so hard.

 

[Thirty7ven]

What many people keep trying not to understand, is that higher res textures and higher definition assets already exists from the get go. They downgrade them when they put it in the game.

The whole multiplatform will prevent a) and b) is some more bs.

 

[Quantum253]

I was impressed with the demo. I fully welcome faster loading times (just finished Horizon Zero Dawn and the fast travel loads were killing me). I'd love to instantly fast travel within the open world and am curious to see/experience how game design will change.
I'm confused on the timing of the software release though. At the end of the demo, a full release date was mentioned at the end of 2021.
"With its full launch in late 2021, Epic says UE5 will support next-generation consoles, current-generation consoles, PC, Mac, iOS, and Android"
Source: ( https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/13/...station-5-demo-next-gen-graphics-release-date)
Does this mean that developers will not have access to UE5 until the end of 2021 (seeing games in late 2022/2023)? Or will certain developers have access to make games in a Beta software version for release sooner?

 

[Knitted Knight]

Are we talking about common denominator PCs now? If I have a PC with a 2080Ti and 32GB of system ram, I'm pretty sure I have more memory than next gen consoles. You're also forgetting that these assets that are being streamed shouldn't be confused with what the GPU/CPU can draw. A mid tier GPU with twice the ram of a 2080TI will not perform better, that's not how it works.

You generalized when using the word PC, and now you've scaled back to a particular set up that fits more your opinion on the matter aka your individual situation, emphasis on individual. Mind you; you addressed a thread that generalized PCs and responded likewise, so yes we're back to common denominators and the potential levels of adoption to a set up that could mimic a PS5 pound for pound.

It's also debatable whether the particular set up you mentioned will be sufficient in practice to match pound for pound a PS5 without scaling back or hitting some bottleneck that has be compensated elsewhere. But it's a waste of time until we see receipts from both sides. However, coming out the gate in late 2020, the overwhelming majority of gaming PC's will not and are not ready to match a PS5 - and they won't be for at least 1 1/2 -2 years with levels of adoption and #'s being debatable (specially in this economy, and given the current high pricing for PC components these days). This is not the Xbox One /Ps4 generation redux yet some people still think it's.

 

[geordiemp]

What many people keep trying not to understand, is that higher res textures and higher definition assets already exists from the get go. They downgrade them when they put it in the game.

The whole multiplatform will prevent a) and b) is some more bs.

Its sinking in very very slowly.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Lower quality assets on a more powerful PC?? I don't know if it's Sony's SSD CoolAid doing its work, but PCs don't have a lack of memory that the consoles are making up for, so how can anyone come to this conclusion?

They do lack VRAM when you are talking north of 10GB with 2-4x the data uncompressed straight into VRAM. I'm not sure if GPUS with a fast clock and 10TF RDNA2 with 32-64GB of VRAM will be cheap and on the market soon.

 

[Psykodad]

Now that's a tricky question, but overall yes. You would prefer more things going on, and it's not clear if moving characters or assets could leverage the nanite tech, so far that character was fully rendering no matter how close or far you are from her. UE5 is still in alpha/beta and should sort things out later on as they've said that they're aiming for solid 60fps on that demo, and it's mainly doing around 40fps to provide solid, locked 30fps. I'm more than sure Decima engine and other SWWS engines is doing something better at the moment as it's been at least 4 years in the making of PS5.

Cool, thanks for the replies.

Can't wait to see what games will be shown at the Ps5 event.

 

[geordiemp]

I was impressed with the demo. I fully welcome faster loading times (just finished Horizon Zero Dawn and the fast travel loads were killing me). I'd love to instantly fast travel within the open world and am curious to see/experience how game design will change.
I'm confused on the timing of the software release though. At the end of the demo, a full release date was mentioned at the end of 2021.
"With its full launch in late 2021, Epic says UE5 will support next-generation consoles, current-generation consoles, PC, Mac, iOS, and Android"
Source: ( https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/13/...station-5-demo-next-gen-graphics-release-date)
Does this mean that developers will not have access to UE5 until the end of 2021 (seeing games in late 2022/2023)? Or will certain developers have access to make games in a Beta software version for release sooner?

Already answered in an EPIC dev interview, UE 4.25 will cross straight over to UE5 early next year, so devs can make the game and prepare now.

UE5 will also be multi hardware compatible and will scale down to PC and XSX (I enjoyed saying that)

 

[SupremeHoodie]

lol

 

[EverydayBeast]

Developers are going to throw everything they have at the PS5 and it's SSD.

 

[Self]

'Scaling down to XSX and PC'
is the sentence of the week.

Goes down like good liquor

 

[Journey]

You generalized when using the word PC, and now you've scaled back to a particular set up that fits more your opinion on the matter aka your individual situation, emphasis on individual. Mind you; you addressed a thread that generalized PCs and responded likewise, so yes we're back to common denominators and the potential levels of adoption to a set up that could mimic a PS5 pound for pound.

It's also debatable whether the particular set up you mentioned will be sufficient in practice to match pound for pound a PS5 without scaling back or hitting some bottleneck that has be compensated elsewhere. But it's a waste of time until we see receipts from both sides. However, coming out the gate in late 2020, the overwhelming majority of gaming PC's will not and are not ready to match a PS5 - and they won't be for at least 1 1/2 -2 years with levels of adoption and #'s being debatable (specially in this economy, and given the current high pricing for PC components these days). This is not the Xbox One /Ps4 generation redux yet some people still think it's.

Are was replying to someone that said "Scaled down for PC" so did he generalize, or did I?

 

[LittleBusters]

MS scrambling to up their SSD before launch, they know they f-ed it up.

 

[Quantum253]

Already answered in an EPIC dev interview, UE 4.25 will cross straight over to UE5 aerly next year, so devs can make the game and prepare now.

UE5 will also be multi hardware compatible and will scvale down to PC and XSX (I enjoyed saying that)

Thank you, I'll have to check it out. The quote seems a little misleading in that next gen consoles wouldn't be supported until the full launch of the software in 2021. I'm happy to hear that we won't have to wait 3 years to see the engine being utilized.

 

[geordiemp]

'Scaling down to XSX and PC'
is the sentence of the week.

Goes down like good liquor

Well if you cannot stream the high quality assets, you have to scale them down.

Thank you, I'll have to check it out. The quote seems a little misleading in that next gen consoles wouldn't be supported until the full launch of the software in 2021. I'm happy to hear that we won't have to wait 3 years to see the engine being utilized.

Yes, I watched the interview today, next gen UE5 will be not long after ps5 launch and UE4.25 can be ported and use the tech.

 

[fermcr]

Every time someone talks about the PS5, is all about the SSD....SSD... SSD.... and the special SSD. That SDD better make a hell of a difference, otherwise there are going many disappointed gamers out there.

Lets just imagine, what if most 3rd party games run better on the Xbox Series X with a normal SSD...

 

[itsjustJEFF]

“The ability to stream in content at extreme speeds enables developers to create denser and more detailed environments, changing how we think about streaming content. It’s so impactful that we’ve rewritten our core I/O subsystems for Unreal Engine with the PlayStation 5 in mind,” he added.

More at the link.

Epic Games had to rewrite parts of Unreal Engine to keep up with the PS5's SSD

The SSD inside every PS5 is going to be transformative for game development, and the maker of Unreal Engine has seen it firsthand.

www.vg247.com

You just had to post this huh? This is not gonna go over well I wonder how long it took them to rewrite it, there's no way that could have been an easy job. I wondering how much of a "setback" that was for UE5.

 

[Knitted Knight]

MS scrambling to up their SSD before launch, they know they f-ed it up.

Velocity boost clock.

 

[Knitted Knight]

Every time someone talks about the PS5, is all about the SSD....SSD... SSD.... and the special SSD. That SDD better make a hell of a difference, otherwise there are going many disappointed gamers out there.

Lets just imagine, what if most 3rd party games run better on the Xbox Series X with a normal SSD...

If they split sales 50/50 out of the 160-170M "hardcore" console gamers (ala X360/PS3) you may not be that far off in your imagination. It won't matter whether the PS5 SSD makes a difference or not - third party devs won't care.

 

[itsjustJEFF]

"third parties will never take advantage of the SSD" doesn't take into account the large number of third party games that are PS4 exclusive anyway, and as result actually will take advantage of the SSD.

If anything it will just give Japanese devs less of an incentive to do late ports since it might take additional work.

You know, I would be really interested in the developers point of view. It would be fascinating to hear their take on how hard it would be to change their code up to accommodate a much bigger pipeline aka less bottle neck. How much work would it take? How much more development time is added? hypothetically speaking of course.

 

[geordiemp]

Thank you, I'll have to check it out. The quote seems a little misleading in that next gen consoles wouldn't be supported until the full launch of the software in 2021. I'm happy to hear that we won't have to wait 3 years to see the engine being utilized.

 

[Chiggs]

I'd like to believe this information from Epic, but I'm going to need the real experts to weigh in on this. That's right, I need Digital Foundry on the case, stat!

 

[Matsuchezz]

PS5 is going to kick ass! I believe the big third parties will go forward and customize their games with SSD in mind for PS5, if developers weren't willing to spend money to develop 2 "different" games, that would mean that they won't implement Ray tracing on XsX just because they do not want to develop for 2 "different" games. I do not think so. Indie developers probably wont be able to do this due to money.

 

[Paracelsus]

Every time someone talks about the PS5, is all about the SSD....SSD... SSD.... and the special SSD. That SDD better make a hell of a difference, otherwise there are going many disappointed gamers out there.

Lets just imagine, what if most 3rd party games run better on the Xbox Series X with a normal SSD...

Ask yourself why the UE5 demo is under NDA until after Black Friday and Christmas 2020.
Therein lies the answer.

 

[II_JumPeR_I]

Yeeeah sure....

And the sky is blue

 

[carlosrox]

What about that one part where she passed through that crevice?

They claimed it was to highlight the high-res textures but it looks suspiciously like current techniques used to mask loading.

 

[Handy Fake]

What about that one part where she passed through that crevice?

They claimed it was to highlight the high-res textures but it looks suspiciously like current techniques used to mask loading.

Epic have come out and categorically stated that isn't the case.