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[VFXVeteran]

i dont understand why people think the unreal tech demo was boosted in anyway by the ps5. This was to showcase the tech in the demo using the ps5 asa platform. but this demo had nothing to do with the actual ps5's tech in anyway

PS folks are having a field day with this because they were short-changed on the GPU power. The SSD is the only thing they can hold on to. You should go back and read all the useless pages on Next-gen speculation of wet-dreams about how much RAM and TFLOPS the PS5 was going to get. It was insane.

 

[Redlight]

...Current gen games are using same techs used in those Unreal Demo and lot of games are using better techs. Tomorrow Children uses better form of global illumination than Unreal Elemental demo. Lots of games have higher detailed characters and just as impressive lighting and techs than the Infiltrator demo. Go on put your Lol reaction.

I've seen that 'Elemental' demo from 2012. Maybe you could find a game here or there that uses a better version of one of the technologies represented in that video (I'll take your word on 'Tomorrow Children's' global illumination, though the game overall isn't close to being on the same level as that tech demo).

To suggest that current-gen console gameplay looks as good, in totality, as that eight-year-old demo certainly isn't my experience of console gaming in 2020. Of course in 2012 that's what many of us wanted to believe that games would look like over the next few years. It didn't really happen though.

It's been nearly universally true that early tech demos are, to put it mildly, on the optimistic side. The fact that the Unreal 5 demo isn't 4K and is running at 30fps without any gameplay systems shows that compromises will still be necessary throughout next gen.

 

[DForce]

PS folks are having a field day with this because they were short-changed on the GPU power. The SSD is the only thing they can hold on to. You should go back and read all the useless pages on Next-gen speculation of wet-dreams about how much RAM and TFLOPS the PS5 was going to get. It was insane.

This is coming from a guy saying next-gen has been here for 3-4 years now on PC, right?

I have to look back, but didn't you tell me several weeks ago that devs couldn't exceed higher resolution textures with the use of the SSD on the PS5?

 

[Radical_3d]

no shit tim you donkey.

sony have already made this clear. their SSD will run at 5.5GB/s with support of up to 7GB/s which is the limit for PCIE 4.0

the fastest PC ssd i can find is 5GB/s and now before any console fanboy goes "muh ps5 is betta than a PC!!!".....yeah won't be long before we will be able to support SSD speeds up to 14GB/s with PCIE 5.0 which is due out next year.

PCIE 5 is due to 2021? Unprecedented short life for a standard here on the PCIE 4, isn’t? Like… are there any GPUs with PCIE 4 yet? Man. It’s always a terrible time to build a PC.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Redlight]

Cause the Xbox guys can't take it that Tim Sweeney said their box and PC won't be able to pull off the demo at the same levels as PS5......

They're in the denial stage!

'B....b....but Teraflops!!!!'

Teraflops are a big part of this equation...

"A number of different components are required to render at this level of detail," says Sweeney. "One is GPU performance and GPU architecture to draw an incredible amount of geometry. You're talking about a very large number of teraflops being required for this. The other is the ability to load and stream it efficiently."

Regarding loading and streaming, though, Sweeney says that the PlayStation 5's SSD architecture is "god-tier" and "pretty far ahead of PCs," but that you should still get "awesome performance" with an NVMe SSD.

Unreal Engine 5 tech demo uses 'film-quality' assets, runs on today's hardware

The PlayStation 5 demo shows off Epic's impressive 'Nanite' rendering technology, coming next year.

www.pcgamer.com

 

[Bryank75]

Teraflops are a big part of this equation...

"A number of different components are required to render at this level of detail," says Sweeney. "One is GPU performance and GPU architecture to draw an incredible amount of geometry. You're talking about a very large number of teraflops being required for this. The other is the ability to load and stream it efficiently."

Regarding loading and streaming, though, Sweeney says that the PlayStation 5's SSD architecture is "god-tier" and "pretty far ahead of PCs," but that you should still get "awesome performance" with an NVMe SSD.

Unreal Engine 5 tech demo uses 'film-quality' assets, runs on today's hardware

The PlayStation 5 demo shows off Epic's impressive 'Nanite' rendering technology, coming next year.

www.pcgamer.com

Absolutely, can't argue with that!

Only thing I'd add is that it's great that global illumination is there instead of ray tracing...looks like rtx tanks framerates from what I saw today on youtube.

 

[DForce]

Our conversation from almost 2 months ago...

That's not what I'm asking you.

I'm giving you a scenarios in which a Spider-Man game is on the PS5, but one has an SSD and the other just has a regular HDD.

The question is: Can the PlayStation 5 with an SSD stream more higher quality assets?

No. It can stream more assets. Higher quality is relative. Higher quality could mean more triangles for a character or larger texture sizes. So be specific.

This is the stuff that I'm talking about. He's been saying a lot of things that are not in line with what other devs are saying.

 

[Redlight]

Absolutely, can't argue with that!

Only thing I'd add is that it's great that global illumination is there instead of ray tracing...looks like rtx tanks framerates from what I saw today on youtube.

If you can have raytracing and at least a solid 30fps and it looks amazing, then I'm fine with that.
If the user can't tell the difference between ray tracing and global illumination then, well, ray tracing can suck it.

 

[Kagey K]

If you can have raytracing and at least a solid 30fps and it looks amazing, then I'm fine with that.
If the user can't tell the difference between ray tracing and global illumination then, well, ray tracing can suck it.

10 minutes ago these same people we saying 4K/60 or next gen fails.

Now 1440/30 with no raytracing is amazing.

The goal posts never stop moving, so it’s a waste of time.

 

[Bogroll]

PS folks are having a field day with this because they were short-changed on the GPU power. The SSD is the only thing they can hold on to. You should go back and read all the useless pages on Next-gen speculation of wet-dreams about how much RAM and TFLOPS the PS5 was going to get. It was insane.

I can't get that that video out of my head of the foot landing @ 1 minute 32 seconds. Its going to be 13.2 TF and people going crazy, yes we're higher than 12 TF. Yeah more likw 13.2 TF GCN

 

[DeepEnigma]

Our conversation from almost 2 months ago...





This is the stuff that I'm talking about. He's been saying a lot of things that are not in line with what other devs are saying.

The Insomniac dev at the GDC panel last year literally said the GPU could’ve done so much more and they could’ve made Spider-Man look even better, but they were held back by the streaming of the slow mechanical drives. They had to cap it to 20MB/s as a baseline due to the ability for users to swap the PS4 HDD out and put an even shittier / slower one in than it comes with.

The GPU was underutilized due to the HDD not feeding the RAM fast enough.

 

[VFXVeteran]

This is coming from a guy saying next-gen has been here for 3-4 years now on PC, right?

I have to look back, but didn't you tell me several weeks ago that devs couldn't exceed higher resolution textures with the use of the SSD on the PS5?

From the rendering side of things, the PC has already been doing next-gen - yes. And I stand by that. Even in that demo, they are using current-gen tech for the lighting. It has artifacts just like screen-space solutions.

I said the stop gap on these consoles always will be the GPU. You can feed the GPU all the data you want, but it has to display on the screen. GPU will be the limit as we see in this demo.

 

[DeepEnigma]

10 minutes ago these same people we saying 4K/60 or next gen fails.

Now 1440/30 with no raytracing is amazing.

The goal posts never stop moving, so it’s a waste of time.

Who are these people? Quote them, please.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Our conversation from almost 2 months ago...





This is the stuff that I'm talking about. He's been saying a lot of things that are not in line with what other devs are saying.

I asked you to be specific. I didn't say anything that devs aren't saying. You still never asked the question.

 

[DForce]

From the rendering side of things, the PC has already been doing next-gen - yes. And I stand by that. Even in that demo, they are using current-gen tech for the lighting. It has artifacts just like screen-space solutions.

I said the stop gap on these consoles always will be the GPU. You can feed the GPU all the data you want, but it has to display on the screen. GPU will be the limit as we see in this demo.

Uh, you were replying to someone who called the last of us "next gen". So technically, it was "next gen" just at a lower resolution based on your logic.

 

[Kagey K]

Who are these people? Quote them, please.

I don’t have time to bother.
But you can use this thread from,page 1 as a refresher if you’d like.

Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

Welcome to the next-gen analysis/speculation and rumors thread. Next-generation chatter is exciting but can also be very confusing. I've decided to put all the gossip, and info regarding next-gen consoles into this one thread. That way we can thoroughly discuss and analyze every sort of...

www.neogaf.com

Im pretty sure 4K/60 comes up at least 20 times in the first 10 pages.

 

[Red_Driver85]

SSD will change a lot in game development, the quality of graphics and assets will grow very much. This is too obvious to argue with that. Also...
Don't try to argue with PC fanatics. You don't prove anything to them, they always pretend that they know more. "Mr. PC - is the best version" (VFXVeteran), too often looked frankly funny when he was talking nonsense. I see no reason to trust the crap that he writes.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Uh, you were replying to someone who called the last of us "next gen". So technically, it was "next gen" just at a lower resolution based on your logic.

I don't remember the context.

 

[Bryank75]

If you can have raytracing and at least a solid 30fps and it looks amazing, then I'm fine with that.
If the user can't tell the difference between ray tracing and global illumination then, well, ray tracing can suck it.

Pretty much...I really want to see them side by side...

 

[DForce]

I asked you to be specific. I didn't say anything that devs aren't saying. You still never asked the question.

I asked you the question multiple times, but it was clear you weren't paying attention.

 

[Kazekage1981]

Teraflops are a big part of this equation...

"A number of different components are required to render at this level of detail," says Sweeney. "One is GPU performance and GPU architecture to draw an incredible amount of geometry. You're talking about a very large number of teraflops being required for this. The other is the ability to load and stream it efficiently."

Regarding loading and streaming, though, Sweeney says that the PlayStation 5's SSD architecture is "god-tier" and "pretty far ahead of PCs," but that you should still get "awesome performance" with an NVMe SSD.

Xbox Series X has 2 more Teraflops, 100GB/sec more of RAM bandwidth, and a fairly fast SSD with decent bandwidth (not as high as PS5). XsX sounds more of a balanced and well powered console ability to meet what Tim Sweeny thinks is needed to display the Unreal 5.0 tech demo.

Maybe a basic YouTube analogy can help?

Fast internet = 4K video stream. Slower internet = 720p video stream otherwise buffering issues.

edit: the video quality in this instance is an asset in video game terms.

I think you mean internet bandwidth and speed?!


Edit made a boo boo its: 112GB/sec more on the 10GB GDDR6 of XsX

 

[VFXVeteran]

SSD will change a lot in game development, the quality of graphics and assets will grow very much. This is too obvious to argue with that. Also...
Don't try to argue with PC fanatics. You don't prove anything to them, they always pretend that they know more. "Mr. PC - is the best version" (VFXVeteran), too often looked frankly funny when he was talking nonsense. I see no reason to trust the crap that he writes.

Why? Because it doesn't fit your narrative? How many insiders did you believe during the year-long speculation of PS5 power? How about HZD coming to PC?

If you think that the PS5 GPU is an empty black hole that can suck as much information as needed without choking, you are in for a rude awakening.

 

[Kazekage1981]

--snip--



Continually adding ram is exactly what developers want here. SSD is just a storage medium (and even that increases capacity). Unless it becomes just as fast as RAM, it'll always take a backseat to having much faster access RAM. Every generation of a console as well as a GPU has steadily increased RAM. To get the kind of CG graphics in real-time ultimately you'll need a very powerful system with lots of RAM and lots of bandwidth.

Don't want to go around in circles with you tonight again. So drop it.

I agree but what about additional compute units in addition to more RAM and RAM bandwidth? How would this help the Unreal 5.0 tech demo?

 

[Bryank75]

Xbox Series X has 2 more Teraflops, 100GB/sec more of RAM bandwidth, and a fairly fast SSD with decent bandwidth (not as high as PS5). XsX sounds more of a balanced and well powered console ability to meet what Tim Sweeny thinks is needed to display the Unreal 5.0 tech demo.



I think you mean internet bandwidth and speed?!

You're getting fooled by Xbox's carefully worded marketing........ they said.... 'instantaneous access to 100gb of assets' which actually means nothing. It's not a real metric that makes any sense or can be compared or contextualized. It's a marketing term to blur what the SSD is capable of.....which is a very bad sign.

 

[DForce]

The Insomniac dev at the GDC panel last year literally said the GPU could’ve done so much more and they could’ve made Spider-Man look even better, but they were held back by the streaming of the slow mechanical drives. They had to cap it to 20MB/s as a baseline due to the ability for users to swap the PS4 HDD out and put an even shittier / slower one in than it comes with.

The GPU was underutilized due to the HDD not feeding the RAM fast enough.

The way people are talking in here is that they think a standard HDD would be enough for next gen.

 

[VFXVeteran]

I agree but what about additional compute units in addition to more RAM and RAM bandwidth? How would this help the Unreal 5.0 tech demo?

We can always use more compute units. They will go up just as much. I wouldn't be so hung up on the virtual geometry. Devs will find a good balance and that will be that. Because that's even dependent on screen resolution too, it'll be a balancing act for sure. The real power will be in the lighting/shading.

 

[Bryank75]

We can always use more compute units. They will go up just as much.

So, you don't agree that the SSD and controller in the PS5 has any benefit to performance / detail on screen ?
And you disagree with everything Tim Sweeney said?

 

[Kazekage1981]

You're getting fooled by Xbox's carefully worded marketing........ they said.... 'instantaneous access to 100gb of assets' which actually means nothing. It's not a real metric that makes any sense or can be compared or contextualized. It's a marketing term to blur what the SSD is capable of.....which is a very bad sign.

Sorry I mean 92 GB/sec more.
PS4: 16GB of GDDR6 @ 448GB/sec
Xbox Series X: 10GB of GDDR6 @560GB/sec

Edit made a boo boo its: 112GB/sec more on the 10GB GDDR6 of XsX

 

[Kagey K]

You're getting fooled by Xbox's carefully worded marketing........ they said.... 'instantaneous access to 100gb of assets' which actually means nothing. It's not a real metric that makes any sense or can be compared or contextualized. It's a marketing term to blur what the SSD is capable of.....which is a very bad sign.

YeH the biggest multi platform engine in the world only wants you To buy their engine if you are making a PS5 exclusive.

That will grow it’s economy.

 

[VFXVeteran]

So, you don't agree that the SSD and controller in the PS5 has any benefit to performance / detail on screen ?

I think the PS5's SSD is a great storage device and it's a good way to make up for the low memory footprint of the system. I'm not sure if it's going to matter with performance in games not specifically designed to use it in ways to bring in more detail. In other words, just by having it there doesn't mean the game is suddenly going to run at 4k/60FPS. Detail on screen is going to completely be dependent on the GPU processing the data at a targeted framerate. And resolution will be even more sensitive this generation than ever before.

And you disagree with everything Tim Sweeney said?

I don't disagree with Tim Sweeney at all. I just don't add words into his mouth like most of the people here. He already mentions that other platforms will be able to run on UE5 and that's that. Everyone else is taking what he says about the SSD being superior to any PC SSD currently and all the overhead and equating it to the PC/XSX not being able to run that demo -- which is completely false.

 

[Bryank75]

Sorry I mean 92 GB/sec more.
PS4: 16GB of GDDR6 @ 448GB/sec
Xbox Series X: 10GB of GDDR6 @560GB/sec

Oh..the Ram...

7168-5600=1568 in PS5 favor... I think.

 

[Kazekage1981]

Oh..the Ram...

7168-5600=1568 in PS5 favor... I think.

What are those numbers?

 

[Kagey K]

Oh..the Ram...

7168-5600=1568 in PS5 favor... I think.

Oof probably better if you try not to think.

 

[Bryank75]

I think the PS5's SSD is a great storage device and it's a good way to make up for the low memory footprint of the system. I'm not sure if it's going to matter with performance in games not specifically designed to use it in ways to bring in more detail. In other words, just by having it there doesn't mean the game is suddenly going to run at 4k/60FPS. Detail on screen is going to completely be dependent on the GPU processing the data at a targeted framerate.



I don't disagree with Tim Sweeney at all. I just don't add words into his mouth like most of the people here. He already mentions that other platforms will be able to run on UE5 and that's that. Everyone else is taking what he says about the SSD being superior to any PC SSD currently and all the overhead and equating it to the PC/XSX not being able to run that demo -- which is completely false.

I think we all mean...'not run the demo at quite that level of detail'

Now, maybe a metric tonne of Ram might allow it but I think what Sweeney is saying is the SSD allows an efficient alternative.

 

[Jayjayhd34]

Looks like vfx is right

I’m not going to dismiss the possibility that Sony or Microsoft could introduce unique game capabilities on consoles that PCs currently can’t match, but I don’t think it’s likely. PCs might need higher RAM requirements or more VRAM to compensate for differences in underlying storage architectures, but it’s unlikely we will see them outstripped

edIT THIS WAS QUOTE I MISINTERPRETED TO BE TIM SWEENY THIS WAS NOT CASE SO PLEASE DISREGARD IT, ITS POORLY WRITTEN ARTICLE THAT IMPLIED SO MUCH.

 

[VFXVeteran]

I think we all mean...'not run the demo at quite that level of detail'

I don't believe that either. We have no idea what the required read speed is needed for that level of detail. It's just unknown. So it's pretty remiss to assume that the PS5 was pushing data > 2.5G/s in that demo.

Now, maybe a metric tonne of Ram might allow it but I think what Sweeney is saying is the SSD allows an efficient alternative.

Sure. But that's not the only way to rendering that demo. And I wouldn't be surprised if the PC can run it at 4k. I think the XSX will be similar to the PS5.

 

[Bryank75]

Oof probably better if you try not to think.

Dunno what you're talking about...you gave the figures. It's 7 am here, not in the mood.

I don't believe that either. We have no idea what the required read speed is needed for that level of detail. It's just unknown. So it's pretty remiss to assume that the PS5 was pushing data > 2.5G/s in that demo.



Sure. But that's not the only way to rendering that demo. And I would be surprised if the PC can run it at 4k. I think the XSX will be similar to the PS5.

Surely they'd have run it on a PC to show that then...I mean Epic have a store there!?

 

[VFXVeteran]

Surely they'd have run it on a PC to show that then...I mean Epic have a store there!?

Nah, I asked a buddy working there already. They said they wanted to show the PS5 because that's what they were most proud of.

 

[Audiophile]

If you want to run a theoretical PC port of Horizon 2 at or a bit above parity in 2023 for eg. I'd hazard a guess you'd need a [16GB DDR4/5 + PCIe5 8GB/s+ SSD] or [32GB DDR4/5 + PCIE4 ~5GB/s SSD], a Zen 3 16C/32T @ 4GHz and a theoretical NV 3070 16GB GDDR6

This gives you system overhead, console v pc overhead, gives you the option of an adequate system ram + performant SSD or a giant ram cache + adequate SSD and a CPU provisioned to handle I/O and other bespoke console block functionality.

 

[Kagey K]

Dunno what you're talking about...you gave the figures. It's 7 am here, not in the mood.

Math doesn’t care what time zone you are in, it’s a fact everywhere.

Either try to do it better or don’t bother at all going forward.

 

[Kazekage1981]

SSD is a storage medium alternative to RAM, so that the RAM is not being waisted and is actually being used for volatile components. The SSD of PS5 and Xbox Series X is acting like the RAM from the original Xbox from 2001, and that's great.

 

[Bryank75]

Math doesn’t care what time zone you are in, it’s a fact everywhere.

Either try to do it better or don’t bother at all going forward.

Kazekage1981 provided the figures.... take it up with him.

He said 10gb @ 560 for SX
and 16gb @ 448 for PS5

If you have a problem with the figures, take it up with him. Dunno what your problem is...

 

[Kazekage1981]

Oof probably better if you try not to think.

Math doesn’t care what time zone you are in, it’s a fact everywhere.

Either try to do it better or don’t bother at all going forward.

I dont understand what those numbers are?! What did Bryank75 write?

 

[Jayjayhd34]

SSD is a storage medium alternative to RAM, so that the RAM is not being waisted and is actually being used for volatile components. The SSD of PS5 and Xbox Series X is acting like the RAM from the original Xbox from 2001, and that's great.

Please don't shoot here asking genuine question

Will that not just ware the drive out continuesly decompressing etc

 

[pyrocro]

Yeap but in that case is not the resolution the affected but the number of triangles/detail on screen.

The whole demo and new tech showed yesterday by Epic allow devs to increase the triangles/detail on screen based in how many data you can stream from storage media without impact in GPU rasterizer performance.

For most I don’t like Ditactor due his bias... his article today has a lot of quotes from Epic explaining how it works.

I was impressed what they could archive without need to use the GPU rasterizer power for that... so it is almost performance free for the GPU.

Edit - Changed disc you storage media.

What, What did I just read.
not the resolution but the number of triangles you say.

rethink this dude,
REYES. the whole point is to render detail to a particular resolution. hmm the opposite of what you are saying.

YeH the biggest multi platform engine in the world only wants you To buy their engine if you are making a PS5 exclusive.

That will grow it’s economy.

They will gloss over this.

 

[Kazekage1981]

Please don't shoot here asking genuine question

Will that not just ware the drive out continuesly decompressing etc

You asked a perfectly valid question, and it may. I am not sure how Sony and MSFT have customized their SSD drives to compensate for the ware of use. Perhaps another neogaf member can answer your questions better in this thread. My apologies :-(

 

[Bryank75]

What, What did I just read.
not the resolution but the number of triangles you say.

rethink this dude,
REYES. the whole point is to render detail to a particular resolution. hmm the opposite of what you are saying.


They will gloss over this.

Making an exclusive for Xbox certainly won't.....

'just wait for it to come to game pass' LOL

 

[Bryank75]

Oof probably better if you try not to think.

Trying to think of a way out of this one...... not too smart now are you? Taking you a very long
time.....

Edit: OOOOOFFFF

 

[Kazekage1981]

Oh..the Ram...

7168-5600=1568 in PS5 favor... I think.

what is that Bryank75 ???

 

[Bryank75]

what is that Bryank75 ???

The difference in Ram between the figures you gave me....