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[DeepEnigma]

It's been preached to you over and over, yet you keep posting the same thing repeatedly. Why don't you understand PC isn't suddenly obsolete because they operate differently? Have you heard about DDR4? Should I just quote the same responses to you again?

Why not explain why PC would suddenly be at a disadvantage now? Instead of repeating the same, false things, over and over lol?

Why do you sensationalize and Include qualifiers like “obsolete”, there’s nowhere in his post where he said the PC will be obsolete?

It seems like any tiny bit of criticism like “this one part will be slower or less efficient, for now” you jump off the deep end.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

but saying that Sony's breakthrough made the demo possible doesn't mean the XsX can't also run the demo.

That wasnt wbat was said.

this sort of detail you don’t see in the world would absolutely not be possible at any scale without these breakthroughs that Sony’s made.”

Yes its possible maybe microsoft has similar breakthroughs.

Though this suggests whatever platforms dont have similar breakthroughs will need scaled down assets.

 

[sendit]

Right. If I'm saying something completely false, I'd love for you to tell me what. Don't just drive by with a silly comment.

What you're suggesting is silly. First, you're suggesting a PC to have massive amounts of system ram to be used as cache to match the solution in the PS5. Secondly, the custom I/O chip in the PS5 reduces quite a bit of CPU overhead (which is the reason why its left out of the overall picture).

PS5:
"A dedicated DMA controller (equivalent to one or two Zen 2 cores in performance terms) directs data to where it needs to be, while two dedicated, custom processors handle I/O and memory mapping. On top of that, coherency engines operate as housekeepers of sorts. "

"By the way, in terms of performance, that custom decompressor equates to nine of our Zen 2 cores, that's what it would take to decompress the Kraken stream with a conventional CPU," "

Reference:

Inside PlayStation 5: the specs and the tech that deliver Sony's next-gen vision

www.eurogamer.net

Thirdly, explain why Microsoft (DirectStorage API) is even bothering with this in the PC space if we can just use "system ram as cache"?

Reference:

Defining the Next Generation: An Xbox Series X|S Technology Glossary - Xbox Wire

[Editor’s Note: Updated on 10/21 at 11AM to ensure it is now reflective of the capabilities across both of our next-gen Xbox consoles following the unveil of Xbox Series S.] As we enter a new generation of console gaming with Xbox Series X and Xbox Series S, we’ve made a number of technology...

news.xbox.com

 

[DoctaThompson]

"far ahead"

first pcie 4.0 SSDs are already reaching 5 gbps in reading and writing.

I'm going to laugh so hard when the tear down shows it's just a xxxx rebranded ssd. Or better yet, you remove the ssd heatsink, and it has xxxx brand name on it.

 

[ethomaz]

"far ahead"

first pcie 4.0 SSDs are already reaching 5 gbps in reading and writing.

I’m no expect but due lack of additional units on PC and the overhead that exists there to brute force you need to be a bit over 5.5GB/s that is why most expect PC to match PS5 or even surpass it with SSDs 7GB/s late this year.

 

[Nikana]

“This is not just a whole lot of polygons and memory. It’s also a lot of polygons being loaded every frame as you walk around through the environment and this sort of detail you don’t see in the world would absolutely not be possible at any scale without these breakthroughs that Sony’s made.”

How you watched the demo is only possible on PS5.
You can have it in other platforms with less details and slower loaded assets.

At least until PC brute force with PCI-E 7GB/s late this year.



Yeap all sites made up the same quote from Tim

Says Tim Sweeny said it's not possible on Xbox.

"It was Tim (Epic) that confirmed that the demo needs to have less detail to run on Xbox."

Asked to provide quote where it says this.

"This is not just a whole lot of polygons and memory. It’s also a lot of polygons being loaded every frame as you walk around through the environment and this sort of detail you don’t see in the world would absolutely not be possible at any scale without these breakthroughs that Sony’s made.”

Not a single mention of Xbox.

Sounds about right.

 

[DeepEnigma]

"far ahead"

first pcie 4.0 SSDs are already reaching 5 gbps in reading and writing.

Which is never fully utilized at the moment due to abstraction layers and the like.

 

[ethomaz]

Says Tim Sweeny said it's not possible on Xbox.

"It was Tim (Epic) that confirmed that the demo needs to have less detail to run on Xbox."

Asked to provide quote where it says this.

"This is not just a whole lot of polygons and memory. It’s also a lot of polygons being loaded every frame as you walk around through the environment and this sort of detail you don’t see in the world would absolutely not be possible at any scale without these breakthroughs that Sony’s made.”

Not a single mention of Xbox.

Sounds about right.

“Any” is inclusive... well it includes Xbox.

They said the demo can scale across HDD/SSDs speeds so faster = more details.
How they showed the demo today was only possible due the PS5 hardware/software that Sony made.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

Have you heard about DDR4?

it takes massive amounts of time to fill up if u want 60-100+,GB

I’m no expect but due lack of additional units on PC and the overhead that exists there to brute force you need to be a bit over 5.5GB/s that is why most expect PC to match PS5 or even surpass it with SSDs 7GB/s late this year.

7GBs matches ps5 internal ssd through brute force when paired with ps5 io hw. Without it it probably doesnt.

 

[DoctaThompson]

Which is never fully utilized at the moment due to abstraction layers and the like.

Yet it ran pretty good on a "current gen" SSD, and an almost 2 year old gpu. The only mention of lower quality, would be from a HDD, which would affect all of the consoles in everyone's households.

 

[Bryank75]

I think we are all missing a big point here, sure PC will eventually get an SSD and controller as fast as PS5 but how much is it going to cost and when?

It's going to either be integrated into a GPU that will be well over 1000 dollars, probably 1300 or so. or it will be a separate upgrade that will be expensive in its own right....

What PS5 is offereing for the money is quite future proof and then we will get a midgen upgrade too...

 

[Sophist]

I’m no expect but due lack of additional units on PC and the overhead that exists there to brute force you need to be a bit over 5.5GB/s that is why most expect PC to match PS5 or even surpass it with SSDs 7GB/s late this year.

Which is never fully utilized at the moment due to abstraction layers and the like.

What overhead? GPUs can fetch data straight from SSDs for years now. Here one example where they reached maximum fetching speed (2200MB\s with an Intel 750)

(EN) GpuScan + SSD-to-GPU Direct DMA - KaiGaiの俺メモ

An article for none-Japanese readers....What I'm recently working on is a feature to load data blocks from NVMe-SSD to GPU using peer-to-peer DMA. It allows to bypass the CPU/RAM under a series of data loading process, thus, also allows to reduce number of expensive data copy. Once data blocks...

kaigai.hatenablog.com

The technology is ready, it's the game devs who are late.

 

[ethomaz]

I'm going to laugh so hard when the tear down shows it's just a xxxx rebranded ssd. Or better yet, you remove the ssd heatsink, and it has xxxx brand name on it.

You can use an standard SSD on PS5 since it matches 7GB/s and the size of place inside.

But the fact PS5’s SSD has 12 lanes makes it non-standard... that the 6 priorities access are the different compared with standard SSD.

All the others differences are in APU with the customized IO controller and caches.

 

[DoctaThompson]

it takes massive amounts of time to fill up if u want 60-100+,GB

7GBs matches ps5 internal ssd through brute force when paired with ps5 io hw. Without it it probably doesnt.

Will 100GB of data be required in ANY game in a matter of a minute or two, just to throw a random time increment out there? Does that mean games will only be a matter of 5 minutes long on ps5? If not, do you see where your argument takes a nose dive?

 

[DeepEnigma]

Yet it ran pretty good on a "current gen" SSD, and an almost 2 year old gpu. The only mention of lower quality, would be from a HDD, which would affect all of the consoles in everyone's households.

Has nothing to do with the exchange of reaching theoretical peaks and unable to achieve those peaks.

 

[Journey]

Fast SSD storage is key to the Unreal Engine 5 demo's super detailed scenes

Along with a good GPU, you'll need a speedy drive if you want to run UE5 games at the level of detail shown in the demo.

www.pcgamer.com

Looks like the PS5 SSD was key to allowing the detail...according to PC gamer.

"You'll need a speedy drive"


Looks at Xbox Series X, sees a speedy NVME SSD with Velocity Architecture and BCPack compression, delivering up to 5GB/s, that's the entire memory allocated for games on the PS4 in one second.

Yup, it qualifies

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

Yet it ran pretty good on a "current gen" SSD, and an almost 2 year old gpu. The only mention of lower quality, would be from a HDD, which would affect all of the consoles in everyone's households.

Mobile obviously has lower quality too

 

[Bryank75]

"You'll need a speedy drive"


Looks at Xbox Series X, sees a speedy NVME SSD with Velocity Architecture and BCPack compression, delivering up to 5GB/s, that's the entire memory allocated for games on the PS4 in one second.

Yup, it qualifies

He specifically says it is not achievable without the breakthroughs PS5 has made.... i.e. not Xbox Series X @ 2.4 gb/s

 

[DoctaThompson]

You can use an standard SSD on PS5 since it matches 7GB/s and the size of place inside.

But that takes away from the "magic" in Sony's SSD.

Has nothing to do with the exchange of reaching theoretical peaks and unable to achieve those peaks.

It's a tech demo, what games end up looking better than tech demo from companies that design a world class engine? Let's use any unreal tech demo's for that matter. Please show me a game released in the same gen that looks better than the tech demo of that time.

 

[Entroyp]

That is an expansion board with support to 4x M.2 SSD.



It is not a SSD.
The board costs $160 if I’m not wrong.

oooh I see.. that makes total sense now.

 

[Papacheeks]

"far ahead"

first pcie 4.0 SSDs are already reaching 5 gbps in reading and writing.

IOP is what matters. PS5 5.5 gb/s raw, 8-9 gb/s compressed.

Thats bigger and faster than pretty much anything on the market.

 

[ethomaz]

But that takes away from the "magic" in Sony's SSD.

The “magic” you say is inside the APU... the 7GB/s SSD can deliver the same performance as 5.5GB/s customized SSD by Sony.

Seems like Sony choose for 12 lanes on SSD was to reach the performance they wanted at cheaper cost.... the custom Sony SSD is cheaper than an 7GB/s SSD but can delivery the same performance due the customizations Sony made.

 

[MeatSafeMurderer]

That is ignoring sonys drive may have higher endurance

Yeah...right. You keep believing that "Sony's" drive is going to have higher endurance than a premium SSD that is built for the prosumer market and costs atleast half the price of the entire console on it's own. It's never going to happen.
It'll be a bog standard SSD, likely TLC at the very minimum with a DRAM cache. Sure, maybe you get 6GB/s peak...but you're not getting that sustained...and you're not getting the endurance of an MLC drive like the 970 Pro. Not a hope in hell.

 

[DeepEnigma]

But that takes away from the "magic" in Sony's SSD.


It's a tech demo, what games end up looking better than tech demo from companies that design a world class engine? Let's use any unreal tech demo's for that matter. Please show me a game released in the same gen that looks better than the tech demo of that time.

Figured you would shift the conversation.

Sweeney was talking SSD comparisons in general between the two platforms to a benign question, but what the fuck ever.

Anything positive towards Sony that shows current PC tech in a lesser light, you just can’t handle it.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

Here one example where they reached maximum fetching speed

random read probably lower

Will 100GB of data be required in ANY game in a matter of a minute or two, just to throw a random time increment out there? Does that mean games will only be a matter of 5 minutes long on ps5? If not, do you see where your argument takes a nose dive?

no city flight or tesla car. Easy fast travel.

But that takes away from the "magic" in Sony's SSD.

nope it interfaces with custom io hw which pcs lack. Without custom io hw the 7GB ssd does not match ps5 performance.

It's a tech demo, what games end up looking better in the same gen that looks better than the tech demo of that time.

Playable. Most prior demos were cutscenes.

 

[DoctaThompson]

Figured you would shift the conversation.

Sweeney was talking SSD comparisons in general between the two platforms to a benign question, but what the fuck ever.

Anything positive threads Sony that shows current PC tech in a lesser light, you just can’t handle it.

You still haven't been able to dispute anything though... I've said why PC won't be affected.

There's nothing about PC in a lesser light here, besides you and a couple others trying to make it that way. People have explained why it's FUD, yet you keep trying to imply otherwise? Why are you trying to hard to prove otherwise?

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

Yeah...right. You keep believing that "Sony's" drive is going to have higher endurance than a premium SSD that is built for the prosumer market and costs atleast half the price of the entire console on it's own. It's never going to happen.
It'll be a bog standard SSD, likely TLC at the very minimum with a DRAM cache. Sure, maybe you get 6GB/s peak...but you're not getting that sustained...and you're not getting the endurance of an MLC drive like the 970 Pro. Not a hope in hell.

i was comparing to qlc cheap ssds that can withstand nearly 4000 game installs

 

[DeepEnigma]

You still haven't been able to dispute anything though... I've said why PC won't be affected.

There's nothing about PC in a lesser light here, besides you and a couple others trying to make it that way. People have explained why it's FUD, yet you keep trying to imply otherwise? Why are you trying to hard to prove otherwise?

K

 

[MeatSafeMurderer]

i was comparing to qlc cheap ssds that can withstand nearly 4000 game installs

That seems rather disingenuous. Wasn't it supposed to maintain 6GB/s? No way that's happening once the DRAM cache runs dry and they have to start reading / writing directly to / from the QLC nand. Hell, even if it's TLC, that's going to slow to a crawl once the cache is full. Don't get me wrong...it'll be faster than a HDD even then...but not by much.

 

[longdi]

He's actually an engineers engineer, Phil is the salesman!

He was one. At this stage of his career, he sells more than he techs.
Engineering coding all are done by new scrubs.

 

[Journey]

He specifically says it is not achievable without the breakthroughs PS5 has made.... i.e. not Xbox Series X @ 2.4 gb/s

Show me where he said it wasn't possible on Xbox Series X. We don't know the real world difference when considering the velocity architecture and the BCPack compression.

 

[svbarnard]

So how does the SSD in the Xbox series x compare to this? Is the PS5 simply going to have better graphics because of having a faster SSD?

 

[pyrocro]

Sweeny didn't lie, you can;t get NVME drives this fast on PC ( yet ).

you also can't get a PS5 today.

 

[pixelation]

Only the fool would doubt based Cerny.

 

[Bryank75]

Show me where he said it wasn't possible on Xbox Series X. We don't know the real world difference when considering the velocity architecture and the BCPack compression.

Epic CEO Tim Sweeney says the PS5 is so impressive it’s ‘going to help drive future PCs’

Epic and Sony have been working closely together, and Sweeney is impressed.

www.theverge.com

“It has an immense amount of GPU power, but also multi-order bandwidth increase in storage management. That’s going to be absolutely critical,” he says. “It’s one thing to render everything that can fit in memory,” he adds, but a much more impressive feat to render a world that “might be tens of gigabytes in size” almost instantaneously, as Sony’s new console and its M.2 solid-state drive are promising.

“We’ve been working super close with Sony for quite a long time on storage,” he says. “The storage architecture on the PS5 is far ahead of anything you can buy on anything on PC for any amount of money right now. It’s going to help drive future PCs. [The PC market is] going to see this thing ship and say, ‘Oh wow, SSDs are going to need to catch up with this.”

He basically says that level of performance and detail is only achievable on PS5.

 

[existensmaximum]

So how does the SSD in the Xbox series x compare to this? Is the PS5 simply going to have better graphics because of having a faster SSD?

That will probably depend on your definition of "better".

 

[VFXVeteran]

What you're suggesting is silly. First, you're suggesting a PC to have massive amounts of system ram to be used as cache to match the solution in the PS5. Secondly, the custom I/O chip in the PS5 reduces quite a bit of CPU overhead (which is the reason why its left out of the overall picture).

I didn't say massive amounts of ram. Do you know how a cache works? Do you not understand that the GPU isn't grabbing data from the SSD as if it was in regular texture space? Do you not understand what a 3D pipeline is? Have you ever implemented your own real-time 3D graphics engine?

Thirdly, explain why Microsoft (DirectStorage API) is even bothering with this in the PC space if we can just use "system ram as cache"?

PC can use system ram as cache and even better just move the static geometry straight into GPU RAM. I can bet you that the geometry in that demo's view frustrum was residing in VRAM already - not streamed in at any given frame. Read the paper on the tech. It was printed years and years ago and implemented on a PC.

 

[Korranator]

This dick waving argument is pointless. By the time a game that is ready for purchase using the UE5 engine will probably be 2022 by the earliest, possibly 2023? The amount of high level tech coming for the PC in that short time will be far ahead of anything out now or by the end of this year.

By then, DDR5, PCIE5.0, 7nm and 5nm CPUs, RTX 4000 series possibly 5000 series etc.

 

[Bryank75]

PlayStation learned from PC architecture and now it is helping advance it, maybe the PC crowd could look at it like them returning the favor....in a good way!

I think there is a beneficial relationship between the two and could be even more beneficial.

 

[FireFly]

Yet one of the very same devs said it's available on both, next gen consoles, it runs pretty good on pc, it's coming to phone, and you could get reduced performance from running on a HDD (so ps4 and Xbox 1 could suffer if they release games in 2021). Watched the videos, read the articles, and have seen the comments. It's possible. The devs themselves said so.

1.) Available, and available at the same level of detail are two different things.
2.) PCs already have NVMe SSDs and Sweeney already described the performance as "awesome". So the point of debate is about SSDs vs. mechanical hard drives, not PC vs. consoles. (Though we don't yet know what calibre of SSD is needed).

 

[psorcerer]

What overhead? GPUs can fetch data straight from SSDs for years now. Here one example where they reached maximum fetching speed (2200MB\s with an Intel 750)

(EN) GpuScan + SSD-to-GPU Direct DMA - KaiGaiの俺メモ

An article for none-Japanese readers....What I'm recently working on is a feature to load data blocks from NVMe-SSD to GPU using peer-to-peer DMA. It allows to bypass the CPU/RAM under a series of data loading process, thus, also allows to reduce number of expensive data copy. Once data blocks...

kaigai.hatenablog.com

The technology is ready, it's the game devs who are late.

Fun fact: it's linux with a custom driver.
Technology for windows is not there yet.
Not to mention that game needs gather access and not seq scan. Gather is notoriously bad on PCs due to controller overheads.

 

[DarkMage619]

You can use an standard SSD on PS5 since it matches 7GB/s and the size of place inside.

But the fact PS5’s SSD has 12 lanes makes it non-standard... that the 6 priorities access are the different compared with standard SSD.

All the others differences are in APU with the customized IO controller and caches.

I wonder how accurate this is. With the proprietary nature of the PS5 SSD I would be surprised if you could purchase an off the shelf SSD to upgrade the storage for PS5 games. I wonder what the price of those drives would be compared to other SSDs. With PS5 having less than a TB of storage perhaps SONY has a data compression algorithm allowing them to store more games in less space.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Show me where he said it wasn't possible on Xbox Series X. We don't know the real world difference when considering the velocity architecture and the BCPack compression.

You can consider all of that (BCPack decompressor is part of the Velocity Architecture which is not magic despite being given a marketing code name for the sum of SW and HW stacks) and still have about 2x speed disadvantage, but only good to reduce loading times by 1-2 seconds eh ?

Interesting to see some silent posters, not you, coming out of the woodwork to whitewash everything and minimise the positive outlook on PS5 this demo gave people. Including someone really bent to make sure people were convinced that if you did not care about developers having to jump through hoops and users having to spend tons on HW then yeah PC can do everything anyways please do not get excited, nothing special to see, etc... .

 

[Screamer-RSA]

These SSD threads.... I'm beginning to think fanboyism is a disease.

 

[Goliathy]

Sony’s storage architecture is far ahead of “the best SSD solution you can buy on PC today.

TODAY.

D'uh. So what?

1. We will see SSDs this year that are going to be faster than PS5's SSD.
2. UE engine comes out in late 2021. Games based on this will be released in 2023. So... by then: what kind of SSDs will be available on PC? Way faster than PS5.

 

[II_JumPeR_I]

Praising the marketing Partner...

Also the Sky is blue..

 

[FranXico]

Todays PC Setup
SSD < --> SSD controller <--> CPU < --> System RAM < --> SSD controller < --> CPU < --> System RAM <--> CPU < --> GPU RAM


PS5
SSD <--> SSD controller <--> Unified RAM <--> Decompressor <--> Unified RAM

The decompressor is coupled to the SSD controller (it has embedded memory for that). Decompression happens before the data reaches the unified RAM.

 

[Silent Viper]

Yea trust Tim Sweeny, guy who getting ready to sell his new multiplatform engine for all consoles, PCs and mobiles plus will get Sony exclusives on his pc store.

Tim Sweeney new hero for Sony fans xD

 

[Honey Bunny]

I think we lost PCbros

 

[Moses85]

"500 statues each with 30million polygons" "16 billions polygons" "hundreds billions of polygons throughout the tech demo"

Source: 4K youtube