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[Bobby Roberts]

I'm not sure if this is because I generally don't have any interest in self-inserting or if it's because there are so many white male movie characters that I do it subconsciously and don't know it. But I've never had a problem watching something and feeling for a character who didn't resemble me or who came from a different background.

That you are able to pull this off is, no shit, really fucking hard for a lot of boys. It's a good thing that you can do it, and I wish more boys could manage it instead of rejecting it out of hand and looking for shitty reasons to justify that bad decision.

 

[Lifejumper]

Quick aside,

that's a quality tracking shot.

Excited that Dan Mindel is coming back.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Excited that Dan Mindel is coming back.

This is a great point!

I think Rogue One is just slightly better shot than The Force Awakens, but both those films are easily the best looking Star Wars has ever been. No slight to Peter Suschitzky's work on Empire, but The Force Awakens is so fucking pretty.

 

[Chained Prometheus]

Quick aside,

that's a quality tracking shot.

Yeah, TFA has some pretty stunning cinematography in it. I especially love that wide shot of Rey outside the Star Destroyer engine as she's drinking the last bit of her canteen at the start of the film.

This is a great point!

I think Rogue One is just slightly better shot than The Force Awakens, but both those films are easily the best looking Star Wars has ever been. No slight to Peter Suschitzky's work on Empire, but The Force Awakens is so fucking pretty.

Yup. And The Last Jedi looks like it's gonna be a beauty too!

And to think, two weeks ago we were supposed to have the guy who shot Jurassic World and Fifty Shades Darker as Episode IX's D.P.

 

[sphagnum]

That you are able to pull this off is, no shit, really fucking hard for a lot of boys. It's a good thing that you can do it, and I wish more boys could manage it instead of rejecting it out of hand and looking for shitty reasons to justify that bad decision.

I've never understood that either. I mean my favorite movies as a kid outside of Star Wars were Alice in Wonderland and Godzilla movies, and I'm certainly not an English girl, a giant lizard, or Japanese. So I don't know.

People are weird.

 

[Elfstar]

The frustration comes from how many scenes are straight up ignored by people criticizing the film as they come up with new ways to say Rey did the force wrong.

Yes, that scene is the biggest countergument to the whole "mary sue" debate.

But then she learns how to mind-control people literally out of nowhere, in one of the strangest, most ankward scene of the movie, because there was no set up at all to that, and no, "we were kinda told that she was a jedi fangirl" isn't enough.

Again, i'm just criticing the movie at a cinematographic level, or are you just saying that it's flaweless?

But it seems that no one here is actually trying to have a rational argument about that, it's all about keep fighting that internet political warfare.

 

[mattp]

Quick aside,

that's a quality tracking shot.

love that shot so much


also:

 

[-griffy-]

This is a great point!

I think Rogue One is just slightly better shot than The Force Awakens, but both those films are easily the best looking Star Wars has ever been. No slight to Peter Suschitzky's work on Empire, but The Force Awakens is so fucking pretty.

People that say TFA is visually bland are kind of nuts?

 

[Bobby Roberts]

But then she learns how to mind-control people literally out of nowhere, in one of the strangest, most ankward scene of the movie, because there was no set up at all to that

It's happening directly in front of you in the torture scene. It's not strange or awkward.

The scene where she tries, and finally succeeds (after failed attempts) to mindtrick a stormtrooper is also one of the funnier scenes in the film.

Again, i'm just criticing the movie at a cinematographic level, or are you just saying that it's flaweless?

1) Nobody's said TFA is flawless, and refuting bad criticisms of it doesn't mean that's the stance people are operating from when they do so, and

2) What does any of that have to do with the film's cinematography?

Like, Banana just got tagged for just regurgitating bad reddit arguments he obviously didn't understand. You're apparently doing the same shit right now.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

 

[Lifejumper]

Aaaay a TFA rewatch is in order.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Yes, that scene is the biggest countergument to the whole "mary sue" debate.

But then she learns how to mind-control people literally out of nowhere, in one of the strangest, most ankward scene of the movie, because there was no set up at all to that, and no, "we were kinda told that she was a jedi fangirl" isn't enough.

Again, i'm just criticing the movie at a cinematographic level, or are you just saying that it's flaweless?

But it seems that no one here is actually trying to have a rational argument about that, it's all about keep fighting that internet political warfare.

It's not out of nowhere, it was directly applied to her. So she resisted and learned how it works. Everything Rey does with the force voluntarily is a direct result of it being directly applied to her first.

People that say TFA is visually bland are kind of nuts?

Fucking hell this film is gorgeous. Basically what the OT would've looked like if it were made with today's tech. Grounded SW is best SW.

 

[Chained Prometheus]

People that say TFA is visually bland are kind of nuts?

Yeah, no kidding.

The cinematography for Han's confrontation with Kylo on the railway is really classy too. Love the way Abrams and Mindel use the lighting both visually and thematically in that scene.

 

[PeskyToaster]

love that shot so much


also:

You get me.

 

[CrichtonKicks]

Quick aside,

that's a quality tracking shot.

Abrams shot the hell out of that movie.

I think a big part of the reason that I like him so much is that he uses the camera in a way very similar to Spielberg that I just don't see from a lot of current directors.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

 

[sphagnum]

OTOH the lighting looks nothing like this for the rest of the scene.

 

[Sephzilla]

Yes, that scene is the biggest countergument to the whole "mary sue" debate.

But then she learns how to mind-control people literally out of nowhere, in one of the strangest, most ankward scene of the movie, because there was no set up at all to that, and no, "we were kinda told that she was a jedi fangirl" isn't enough.

Again, i'm just criticing the movie at a cinematographic level, or are you just saying that it's flaweless?

But it seems that no one here is actually trying to have a rational argument about that, it's all about keep fighting that internet political warfare.

You know, except for the part where right before she mind-tricked the stormtrooper (and failed the first time, btw), she was getting a first hand demonstration of the mind trick from Kylo Ren as Kylo Ren was using The Force to trick her into giving up the information on BB8's map. Pretty much everything Rey does in TFA is first demoed to her.

And it's not like Jedi's being able to mind trick people wasn't known by a lot of people. Fucking nobodies like Waddo and Jabba knew about it and knew how to prevent it so it's not a huge stretch to say that Rey was already familiar with the concept of the ability

 

[Elfstar]

It's happening directly in front of you in the torture scene. It's not strange or awkward.

The scene where she tries, and finally succeeds (after failed attempts) to mindtrick a stormtrooper is also one of the funnier scenes in the film.



1) Nobody's said TFA is flawless, and refuting bad criticisms of it doesn't mean that's the stance people are operating from when they do so, and

2) What does any of that have to do with the film's cinematography?

Like, Banana just got tagged for just regurgitating bad reddit arguments he obviously didn't understand. You're apparently doing the same shit right now.

My criticism is that there are scenes in the movie that feel rushed and not properly written, and that's why some people might have the impression that the Rey character becomes overpowered way too fast.
This is my opinion, i don't read Reddit or other SW comunities.

Please cut down the hysteria and chill, this is getting creepy.

 

[-griffy-]

Abrams shot the hell out of that movie.

I think a big part of the reason that I like him so much is that he uses the camera in a way very similar to Spielberg that I just don't see from a lot of current directors.

Watch this video on Spielberg's invisible, mini "oners" and then watch TFA again and look at all the mini "oners" Abrams employs.

 

[itwasTuesday]

J.J. likes his forward progress.

 

[Surfinn]

Doesn't mean he can't do great things.

Yeah but they basically suggested that he's not the force jesus Obi-Wan thought he was.

And him being "the chosen one" doesn't automatically give him a free pass to do things people criticized Rey for in TFA. If Rey were a force jesus in the same way and born out of thin air, people would have flipped the fuck OUT.

I saw no one saying OMG HE'S FORCE JESUS? Look at this film, he's a Gary Stu!

Which really leads me to believe Rey's criticisms were amplified and blown out of proportion because of the fact that she's a woman, not a man, as THE lead SW role.

 

[jman2050]

It astounds me, not that some people don't like TFA, but that some of those people think there is an actual backlash against the film that matters and isn't just a bunch of (sometimes reasonable) dissenters projecting themselves onto the greater populace. It's like people trying to argue that Avatar was never that popular in the first place and that it was just people fooling themselves into liking it cause 3D. The argument was over ages ago. You lost. Get over it. Stick to debating on the merits on the film itself and realizing that you dislike a good movie because you can't get over some of its more overt flaws. It happens, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

People that say TFA is visually bland are kind of nuts?[/QUOTE]


They're just salty prequel apologists. I've yet to hear a competent argument against TFA. It always goes back to defending the PT with their alleged "originality" as if that somehow excused their crap dialogue, idiot plots, and cardboard characters.

But hey, Maul had a double-bladed lightsaber so that makes him a good character, apparently.

 

[CrichtonKicks]

Watch this video on Spielberg's invisible, mini "oners" and then watch TFA again and look at all the mini "oners" Abrams employs.

Yep. It's all just opinions but I just don't feel like most current directors put the same level of effort in camera movement while also holding the shot as long as possible. I think Spielberg's style is pretty much pitch perfect for action adventure and I'm sad that more directors aren't influenced by it.

My major takeaway from Jurassic World was how bland Trevorrow's shooting style was following Spielberg and even Joe Johnston (who may have questionable choices in material but has a filming style similar to Spielberg).

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Please cut down the hysteria and chill, this is getting creepy.

I'm not being hysterical, it's just that you're making not much sense and you're obviously using (or making up) terms you don't understand as part of your effort to make a point I don't think you get beyond its superficial facade.

 

[Surfinn]

They're saying TFA is nothing like ANH because of it's lead characters.

I don't think anyone is saying this

 

[Sephzilla]

It astounds me, not that some people don't like TFA, but that some of those people think there is an actual backlash against the film that matters and isn't just a bunch of (sometimes reasonable) dissenters projecting themselves onto the greater populace. It's like people trying to argue that Avatar was never that popular in the first place and that it was just people fooling themselves into liking it cause 3D. The argument was over ages ago. You lost. Get over it. Stick to debating on the merits on the film itself and realizing that you dislike a good movie because you can't get over some of its more overt flaws. It happens, there's nothing wrong with that.

I know this is off topic but when you actually measure the cultural footprint Avatar left behind compared to other Cameron movies, I think there is actually an argument to be made here since nobody really brings up Avatar anymore.

 

[Surfinn]

They're just salty prequel apologists. I've yet to hear a competent argument against TFA. It always goes back to defending the PT with their alleged "originality" as if that somehow excused their crap dialogue, idiot plots, and cardboard characters.

But hey, Maul had a double-bladed lightsaber so that makes him a good character, apparently.

You have people literally saying there is ONE GOOD ACTION SHOT in all of TFA, in this very thread

The takes are pouring in, even in 2017

 

[-griffy-]

Yep. It's all just opinions but I just don't feel like most current directors put the same level of effort in camera movement while also holding the shot as long as possible. I think Spielberg's style is pretty much pitch perfect for action adventure and I'm sad that more directors aren't influenced by it.

My major takeaway from Jurassic World was how bland Trevorrow's shooting style was following Spielberg and even Joe Johnston (who may have questionable choices in material but has a filming style similar to Spielberg).

Right! Captain America: The First Avenger is like textbook Spielberg (the opening is a pretty overt homage to Close Encounters).

 

[Elfstar]

You know, except for the part where right before she mind-tricked the stormtrooper (and failed the first time, btw), she was getting a first hand demonstration from Kylo Ren as Kylo Ren was using The Force to trick her into giving up the information on BB8's map

And it's not like Jedi's being able to mind trick people wasn't known by a lot of people. Fucking nobodies like Waddo and Jabba knew about it.

Is really that impossible to understand that someone might think that learning how to successifully use that kind of power just by just watching someone else doing it's not enough?

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Right! Captain America: The First Avenger is like textbook Spielberg (the opening is a pretty overt homage to Close Encounters).

Joe Johnston was around the man a lot at the height of his game. When he was given the opportunity to channel early '80s Spielberg you're damn straight he delivered. He had firsthand knowledge of how to do it.

A lot of the reason Raiders looks the way it does is due to Johnston.

Is really that impossible to understand that someone might think that learning how to successifully use that kind of power just by just watching someone else doing it's not enough?

No, it isn't impossible. But it's frustrating watching people have the reasoning (which is present in the film) further explained to them only to see it get refused outright or just bounce off entirely.

I easily understand why people might be confused by her ability to tap into the Force. But why then, when the answer being asked for is given do the questions along those lines continue as if you never actually got the answer you wanted in the first place?

 

[Sephzilla]

Is really that impossible to understand that someone might think that learning how to successifully use that kind of power just by just watching someone else doing it's not enough?

Luke learned how to use The Force block shots blindfolded and land a one-in-a-million shot with absolutely no demonstration after being told about what The Force is like 30 seconds prior

 

[SeanC]

Only thing that really bothered me in TFA, and bothered Abrams as well as he noted in an interview, is he never had a Leia/Chewie scene. Maybe Chewie still resented her after all these years for not getting a medal.

The more I rewatch TFA, the more I like it and appreciate the filmmaking going on. There are some underdeveloped things, certainly, but it takes familiar angles and makes slight adjustments. Sure, we know of the "bad guys" but never really saw a "bad guy" try to be good and have a conscious, Ren's the mirror image of his grandfather who was drawn towards darkness while Ren is drawn towards light, Rey has grit and a born fighter as we follow her hero's journey whereas Luke was a farmboy who dreamt of more as we follow his.

Yeah, there's a lot of familiarity, but there's enough new and different too which is the perfect balance for bringing Star Wars back to where it was. Especially for the first act of three. Familiar but different was the way to go for a first movie and I hope it veers more to create its own identity further in the sequels.

I know this is off topic but when you actually measure the cultural footprint Avatar left behind compared to other Cameron movies, I think there is actually an argument to be made here since nobody really brings up Avatar anymore.

I feel like I see something about Avatar on Gaf at least a few times a month, strangely saying how it's weird nobody talks about it yet there they are talking about it.

Avatar isn't as big in the pop lexicon, though. Never sold enough action figures, probably.

 

[Surfinn]

Is really that impossible to understand that someone might think that learning how to successifully use that kind of power just by just watching someone else doing it's not enough?

I can understand why people would question the Jedi Mind Trick scene. I think it's the only QUESTIONABLE event in terms of "how'd she do that". But even still, in the previous scene, she was battling Kylo and successfully used his powers against him. He had done this two previous times to her and she started to catch on and defend herself.

It's not a HUGE stretch that she might come to the conclusion that she can use her powers on others, considering she just did this to Kylo and succeeded.

 

[George Oscar Bluth II]

Right! Captain America: The First Avenger is like textbook Spielberg (the opening is a pretty overt homage to Close Encounters).

Wish they would get him back to do a movie about one of Cap's WWII missions.

 

[Elfstar]

I'm not being hysterical, it's just that you're making not much sense and you're obviously using (or making up) terms you don't understand as part of your effort to make a point I don't think you get beyond its superficial facade.

I'm sorry, i may use the wrong words some times, i'm not a native english speaker.

If you think i'm wrong then just tell me why you believe i am in a civil and calm way, that's all i ask.

 

[jman2050]

I know this is off topic but when you actually measure the cultural footprint Avatar left behind compared to other Cameron movies, I think there is actually an argument to be made here since nobody really brings up Avatar anymore.

Fox failing to capitalize on Avatar's success because they failed to properly merchandize it after the fact, combined with James Cameron's apparent inability to make movies in any reasonable timeframe, is a separate issue. Avatar the movie, the film that made 2.7 billion dollars as an international sensation, was and still is an enormously popular and beloved film. I don't much care for it (I don't hate it) but it is what it is.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I feel like I see something about Avatar on Gaf at least a few times a month, strangely saying how it's weird nobody talks about it yet there they are talking about it.

Avatar isn't as big in the pop lexicon, though. Never sold enough action figures, probably.

The Avatar talk on GAF is skewed because there's this weird partisan thing going on with Avatar (and Cameron) that makes discussion of the films seem a lot more lively and present than they normally are.

Avatar is not a bad movie, though. I've never agreed with that argument. I'll agree that its impact on popular culture is minimal at best, and its impact on cinema is largely limited to a 3D tax that is in its death throes now, but the film itself is still interesting and overall worth an audience's time, especially theatrically.

I'm sorry, i may use the wrong words some times, i'm not a native english speaker.

If you think i'm wrong then just tell me why you believe i am in a civil and calm way, that's all i ask.

It's all good, and I apologize.

 

[Lizzy]

It is so great.

 

[Surfinn]

People that say TFA is visually bland are kind of nuts?

My god

How bland

 

[Dash_Riprock]

Luke learned how to use The Force block shots blindfolded and land a one-in-a-million shot with absolutely no demonstration after being told about what The Force is like 30 seconds prior

Luke has a penis, so that makes it okay.

 

[Elfstar]

Luke learned how to use The Force block shots blindfolded and land a one-in-a-million shot with absolutely no demonstration after being told about what The Force is like 30 seconds prior

But Luke did have some basic scene with Obi Wan teaching him how to do that. Ray didn't.
That's just all i needed.

 

[Surfinn]

But Luke did have some basic scene with Obi Wan teaching him how to do that. Ray didn't.
That's just all i needed.

Keep in mind

Rey figuring some stuff out on her own via experience, inference and context clues fits better with HER character than it does for Luke.

Rey is a surviving scavenger who had to fend for herself HER ENTIRE LIFE.

Luke spent his entire life having others tell him how to live. In the care of parent figures.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Keep in mind

Rey figuring some stuff out on her own via experience, inference and context clues fits better with HER character than it does for Luke.

Rey is a surviving scavenger who had to fend for herself HER ENTIRE LIFE.

Luke spent his entire life having others tell him how to live. In the care of parent figures.

This is a very good point, and I think one that gets missed when people persist in criticizing the film solely through the prism of "It's an ANH ripoff"

 

[Sephzilla]

But Luke did have some basic scene with Obi Wan teaching him how to do that. Ray didn't.
That's just all i needed.

Rey had Maz give a lecture on how The Force works that's pretty similar to the stuff Kenobi was telling Luke in ANH

 

[Cranster]

Luke learned how to use The Force block shots blindfolded and land a one-in-a-million shot with absolutely no demonstration after being told about what The Force is like 30 seconds prior

I'll raise you...

Anakin accidently flies a spaceship he has no idea how to pilot out of naboo into a droid control station and accidently fires torpedoes into it's main reactor without any kind of training with both piloting spacecraft and the force when he is 8 years old!

Anakin Skywalker is the mary sue!

 

[SeanC]

This is a very good point, and I think one that gets missed when people persist in criticizing the film solely through the prism of "It's an ANH ripoff"

The ANH comparison is just lazy points someone makes, like saying Avatar is just "Dances with Wolves in Space." People don't know how to be constructive so they toss that out as though it's a critique but it really doesn't criticize anything - they just want to say something that sounds smart when really, at best, it's a twitter #hottake. It's just observing similarities - one of my major pet peeves when it comes to someone trying to criticize something.

Dances with Wolves in Space sounds pretty awesome to me, BTW.

 

[Stiler]

This is the kind of reductionist shit that so many of us are sick of. You point to the obvious callbacks and homages, and ignore the context around them. "Look, this thing is like other thing. I recognize thing. I did it." TFA is only a copy of ANH if you point to the obvious surface level stuff. But if you actually point to what the movie is about, how it is about it, like, the actual story the movie tells, the journey the characters go on, it's completely new.

There's way too many "homages" if you think they didn't use ANH for the overall plot structure.

1. Main character living on a desert planet unaware of their past or that they are force sensitive.
2. Droid with a super secret message hiding within it.
3. Droid finds main character and starts them on a journey.
4. Hero tortured to find out information (Poe/Leia)
5. Secretive villain who's over the villain of movie (IE Snoke/Kylo vs the Emperor/Vader)
6. Main villain wears a mask
7. Older figure who main character looks up to to find answers and learn from (Han in this, Obi wan in ANH)
8. Villain of the movie cuts them down while the main character looks on and can't save them.
9. Giant round weapon meant to wipe out planets, but with a fatal flaw to its design.
10. It's weakness is beat by an X-wing firing into this weak point.

There's plenty of good movies that pay homage to ones before them but are still their own movies when it comes to the basic plot structure and overall story.

TFA was played safe in this aspect.

Rogue One on the other hand was not and it was the better for it, imo. I hope that Ep 8/9 aren't afraid to be more of their own movies in this regard, it's ok to have a homage here and there but they need to have their own story.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

And him being "the chosen one" doesn't automatically give him a free pass to do things people criticized Rey for in TFA.

it does. he's literally hyped up as the chosen space jesus. folks are a bit more lenient on what jesus can do.

then again, as said before, anakin being OP is the least of that trilogies problems and so it doesn't get much scrutiny. heck, it's a garbage mess so people laugh or link to the RLM review cause it's really hard to thoroughly articulate that trilogy's problems.