Maybe they will have a custom variation thats more affordable.
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Scorpio presentation pictured within AMD's Vega/Ryzen booth
- Thread starter leeh
- Start date
wapplew
Member
Nothing is too expensive for Microsoft. They will spare no expense, it's too important for them. It's going to be $399 with best specs, take a hit to make the play.
Btw, the impact of 6TF felt lesser every day, it will sound lame at the end of 2017, hope they go higher on that too, maybe 8-10TF, should be no problem with vega.
Hawk269
Member
Sorry, I just used PS4 for the hell of it.
I need to ask though, why do you say it is false hope? I would think in this day and age and how fast technology moves that it certainly can be possible. Perhaps, people are thinking that MS will be using the full size Ryzen chip that AMD has been showing. I don't think they are using that part, but perhaps a version of Ryzen that we are not aware of. I don't think someone saying and/or guessing that Zen will be the system is "spreading false hope". If anything, I think those of us that are hoping for Zen are just wanting a kick ass system.
I have a PS4, traded it in for the PS4 Pro..but before the PRO came out, I was hoping that the one insider saying that what he heard that if they were going with a higher end CPU it would be $499.99. I was hoping for that, I wish it had that. There were those that were suggesting it would have that, but they were not labled as people spreading "false hope". I think all of us as gamers would want the best components in the system, but there are also the realities of cost and consumer cost...if it weren't for that, we would all have 24 GB RAM and SSD's in our consoles, but realities is that stuff would not be reasonable.
The point that Phil has said this will be a premium product and that it is a late 2017 System, I just don't see them using cutting edge GPU, Memory, High Bandwidth and like others says cripple it with a 2013 CPU.
Again sorry for painting you as PS4 fan boy though! Perhaps instead of saying that people wishing for Zen or Zen variant will be in tears if it does not have it, you could have said "I don't believe it will have Zen, I wish it would, but I personally don't think it will have it due to xxxx and xxxxxx and xxxx". The "be in tears" just sounded like bait/fanboy type of drivel.
BeforeU
Oft hope is born when all is forlorn.
Or may be they will have dGPU? Sell it for $200 and take the hit. Might even give it for free
IbizaPocholo
NeoGAFs Kent Brockman
Better be no jaguar again.
I would be very surprised (and disappointed, and a little disgusted) if the Scorpio doesn't ship with some sort of Zen-ified APU. The whole "Bu-bu-bu... the CEO said..." thing that's been trotted out ad nauseum means diddly squat, IMO. AMD dares not steal MS's thunder, and saying careful things like: "You'll hear about deals like that in 2018" does not preclude hearing about things like that this year as well. This is bog-standard investor-call tap dancing. Instead of lying, you pick something peripherally related and say something safely true about that instead.
On the flip side, AMD talking about the Scorpio in their CES(?) booth means precisely nothing regarding whether the Scorpio will have Zen or Vega. They are allowed to talk about more than one thing at a time.
In my mind, the only reason a Zen doesn't go into the Scorpio is if AMD can not shoehorn a modest one into an APU, without breaking MS's bank.
They will be able to? How, exactly? (downclocked? cut down somehow?)
They won't be able to? Why not? (not enough time? fab space? 8 Zen cores would be too expensive or large no matter what they did?)
Answering those questions are beyond a layman like me, but if anybody has any insight I'd love to hear it.
On the flip side, AMD talking about the Scorpio in their CES(?) booth means precisely nothing regarding whether the Scorpio will have Zen or Vega. They are allowed to talk about more than one thing at a time.
In my mind, the only reason a Zen doesn't go into the Scorpio is if AMD can not shoehorn a modest one into an APU, without breaking MS's bank.
They will be able to? How, exactly? (downclocked? cut down somehow?)
They won't be able to? Why not? (not enough time? fab space? 8 Zen cores would be too expensive or large no matter what they did?)
Answering those questions are beyond a layman like me, but if anybody has any insight I'd love to hear it.
Samurai G0SU
Member
Lets look at what they promised so far.
Could have a 6tf, 320GBps memory bandwidth machine been avaiable during holiday 2016?
If yes - what could be the possible specs?
If no - what do we need to get AMD up to those specs?
Or is the only 'plausible' reason ms waiting a year was for VEGA, because it wasnt avail in 2016?
Could have a 6tf, 320GBps memory bandwidth machine been avaiable during holiday 2016?
If yes - what could be the possible specs?
If no - what do we need to get AMD up to those specs?
Or is the only 'plausible' reason ms waiting a year was for VEGA, because it wasnt avail in 2016?
I'm all for a more powerful system here. What proof do we have at this point however?
The CEO has already confirmed that semi custom chips aren't coming this year - yet she's labelled a liar.
But when a picture of the scorpio is sitting at an AMD table at a trade show - that somehow negates what the CEO of the company said? I am not saying it will be equipped with Jaguar, clearly it won't.
It's just getting tiring seeing this poster ignore everyone else's well supported arguments and stretch everything he or she reads to shape what they want to see.
Samurai G0SU
Member
I dont think the 480 has 320gbps of mem bandwidth in any mem config i think.
Well no they wouldn't buy the VRAM for it, it'd have to be a custom version on the same die.
Samurai G0SU
Member
So then they could have had a machine in 2016 with the available hardware right now.
So lets figure out why they would wait a year? That is the kink in this whole debacle.
Games not ready for scorpio?
Perhaps vega gpu?
Perhaps zen like cpu?
The more i think about it... i could almost see that the main reason is because of launch timing with games to reflect the power of scorpio. That would make me kind of sad if that was the main reason and not due to new tech available in 2017 like vega/zen.
Because they wanted native 4K and VR.
The Pro couldn't handle the Vive/Rift, and unless Microsoft has been cooking up their own custom VR solution, they will need a more powerful CPU.
Hawk269
Member
While she did say that, if she was under NDA because the customer (MS) are the ones paying for the part, she would not be in a position to say regardless. Since when have we always took what a CEO says as the 100% fact and nothing can change that? Is it unreasonable to think that perhaps she is under NDA and that she was not in a position to say anything? Perhaps. Her words are worded well and on the surface I have to agree that the chances of Scorpio having Zen is slight, but at the same time I still think it is possible just because of the timing of things.
I don't think dismissing those that have some good arguments when talking about timing and waiting till late 2017 etc. are valid, but they are also as valid as what you are saying. I guess that what a forum is all about, people talking about their opinions and why they think one way or the other. For me. I like being realistic and part of me says a variant of Zen, perhaps not even called Zen but featuring the majority of what makes up a Zen, part of me thinks it is just a custom made part for MS that does not fall under any coded name that AMD has and it is simply a custom AMD made CPU for only MS since they are paying for it. Arguments can be had for any direction, but it is a fun conversation.
Updated AMD GPU roadmap from internal AMD slide leaked. Vega 20, Navi 10, etc
http://videocardz.com/65521/amd-vega-10-and-vega-20-slides-revealed
http://wccftech.com/amd-vega-10-20-slides-double-precision-performance-1500-mhz-vega-10-x2-2017/
I'm thinking Scorpio will use semi custom Vega 10 with some features from Navi (like PS4 Pro uses features beyond Polaris).
PS5 / XBNext will either use Navi, or maybe if a GPU architecture comes to light after Navi (like Vega did right after Polaris), they will use that in 2020, depending on the timing of AMD's roadmap and the timing of future consoles.
http://videocardz.com/65521/amd-vega-10-and-vega-20-slides-revealed
http://wccftech.com/amd-vega-10-20-slides-double-precision-performance-1500-mhz-vega-10-x2-2017/
I'm thinking Scorpio will use semi custom Vega 10 with some features from Navi (like PS4 Pro uses features beyond Polaris).
PS5 / XBNext will either use Navi, or maybe if a GPU architecture comes to light after Navi (like Vega did right after Polaris), they will use that in 2020, depending on the timing of AMD's roadmap and the timing of future consoles.
Funny thing is I was like nobody cares about 4k, then my dad went to best buy saw the samsung k8000 and bought it... I thought 4k was expensive stuff but you can probably a decent set for relatively cheap. People are going to want tv's that are thinner.
Anyways what type of pricing is Microsoft aiming at? Looking kinda crazy if using current stuff
Anyways what type of pricing is Microsoft aiming at? Looking kinda crazy if using current stuff
hanspampel
Banned
When people talk about zen being to expensive, you need to know first how customer pay in the semi custom business.
Microsoft pays for the development of the semicustom chip. They pay a royalty fee to use amd technology and they pay the foundry for the socs based on the process and size
Using zen instead of jaguar does not cost ms much more in any meaningful way. The Scorpio soc will be a totally new design no matter what cpu architecture they will use. The Scorpio soc won't be something like the "mirrored" soc in the ps4 pro.
Diesize for the cpu cores costs money of course, and we don't know the size of zen cores yet. But Scorpio will be semicustom nevertheless, so it can still be very different from the regular ryzen cpus
Microsoft pays for the development of the semicustom chip. They pay a royalty fee to use amd technology and they pay the foundry for the socs based on the process and size
Using zen instead of jaguar does not cost ms much more in any meaningful way. The Scorpio soc will be a totally new design no matter what cpu architecture they will use. The Scorpio soc won't be something like the "mirrored" soc in the ps4 pro.
Diesize for the cpu cores costs money of course, and we don't know the size of zen cores yet. But Scorpio will be semicustom nevertheless, so it can still be very different from the regular ryzen cpus
No matter how often this gets repeated here on gaf, she never did that!
PodcastFips
Member
I hope you never plan to run your own business, because that is delusional. Microsoft is not a charity.
Samurai G0SU
Member
I'm relieved to see your expectations aren't too crazy
Dude, everyone here is just repeating what they are saying about how its going to be Zen or how it isn't going to be, im gonna talk too you know, its not just me
Polaris got some features from Vega cause Vega comes out this year and Pro launched in November.
If Navi comes out in 2019, i don't think AMD are gonna have Navi customizations 2 years ahead of their own product line in Scorpio...or am i wrong about that?
Navi comes out in 2018 apparently, so it isn't unfeasible that Scorpio might have some features from it. It all depends on what MS wants.
I imagine it'll be similar to what happened with the Pro, some Vega features are included in it even though it's a Polaris part.
In regards to the CPU, I just don't think a Ryzen variant is going to happen since they've already said that it's an 8 core processor and it seems too early in the architecture's life for a significantly smaller and lower power version to be ready for integration into a semi custom APU for mass production.
I kind of got my hopes up that the Pro would have a better CPU than the Jaguar but some games, particularly BF1, illustrate that even a 30% upclock makes a large difference in performance consistency. I imagine Scorpio will have a similar, perhaps slightly faster, CPU. That combined with the GPU should get it close to the 4K goal with steadier performance than the base XBO.
Beerman462
Member
A lot of thread shitting in here.
I will say that if MS just goes for a better GPU on Scorpio then it's game over. Increased res/effects are not that game changing.
If they use a new CPU that will allow most games to hit 60fps then I think they have a real game changer.
I would like to think that they see that.
I will say that if MS just goes for a better GPU on Scorpio then it's game over. Increased res/effects are not that game changing.
If they use a new CPU that will allow most games to hit 60fps then I think they have a real game changer.
I would like to think that they see that.
Would that really be a game changer with respects to what we understand the console will be? Let me elaborate a bit.
What I don't understand about all of this roundabout discussion regarding the CPU is the fact that MS's underlying strategy with Scorpio - with their explicit reiteration that it is a part of the Xbox One family - does not require a quantum leap in computing power to deliver different experiences. At the moment, it's a console that will deliver the same experiences we have now that will run better and look prettier. The already-announced graphics processing of this thing certainly seems to be enough to achieve that goal, and would likely allow them to target a somewhat reasonable price-point.
Now, if they were billing this as a true breakaway from the XBO and the start of a new generation in traditional terms, than I completely understand the focus on the CPU. But at the moment, with what we know about the device at the moment, these types of discussions don't seem terribly relevant.
That's of course not to say I wouldn't take a more powerful device with Ryzen - I absolutely would! It just doesn't seem like its in the cards with what we expect the console to be. *shrug*
Beerman462
Member
While 30fps is adequate for gameplay. 60fps feels like a step above. If Scorpio advertises fluid 60fps and delivers I think they could at the very least capture the high end console crowd.
Brad Grenz
Member
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Nice stuff, didn't know the PS4 Pro GPU had some Vega features.
I'm with you, I feel confident it will be Zen.
It makes no sense if they take the commercial hit of waiting a year for a slightly boosted GPU. They're waiting on something.
From AMD's point of view, getting an investment from MS to power their new console on their new technology is crucial going forward. When Scorpio will of been initially talked about by MS, AMD will of been doing the hard sell to MS. Which is an easy buy for MS.
With Amy's comment, it can be as simple as that semi-custom Zen isn't available until 2018 because they've only got the capacity in 2017 in their semi-custom production to fulfill the Scorpio orders for launch.
For AMD, MS backing Zen/Vega will be probably the most important thing to them. It will publisize and promote Zen/Vega in the PC market by simply showing what Scorpio can do. Considering Scorpio will be a lower powered version of both varieties.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
I agree with this view. AMD would definitely have been trying their best to sell Microsoft on Zen. It would be a fantastic way to further promote Zen, and if they could convince Microsoft the benefits are worth their while, I believe that's something Microsoft would be willing to wait on, and that's what I think happened and why Microsoft waited till 2017.
I'm worried that nothing will be unveiled at E3 and a longer wait ensues. I want to upgrade already.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
But think about it, do they really need to have done so until they're actually ready to divulge more information about the system to developers? Sure, it means a number of new tricks will be available to developers if the CPU turns out to be notably more capable, but at the same time the Xbox One is kinda still the base for development anyway. It isn't like even if it does end up being Zen, it's going to end up being such a massive departure architecturally that code originally designed for Xbox One can't suddenly run, and run well, on Zen. That code will likely run pretty well, and should developers decide they want to do something a little more specific on Scorpio titles to take advantage of the extra capabilities of the CPU, that's up them.
Whoa! You actually believe Microsoft would dare even risk not showing anything about Project Scorpio at this E3? Listen, we may as well call Microsoft's entire E3 show Project Scorpio because it's going to soak up all the oxygen in the room. They are not only going to show it, they are going to drop a whole stack of them from the roof of the Galen Center and pray none of the fans seated below get hurt, just in case there's any confusion as to what their E3 is going to be about.
In this case, I think power consumption and availability of a custom Zen APU are more important factors.
She reiterated that position at a conference held by a prominent financial services company only five-and-a-half weeks ago (source):
If semi-custom Zen were on the cards for 2017 to any degree, she would have alluded to it. There's no basis on which to assume she's been telling porkies to potential investors simply to maintain an NDA, unless you have reason to believe she doesn't want to keep her job.
Whoa! You actually believe Microsoft would dare even risk not showing anything about Project Scorpio at this E3? Listen, we may as well call Microsoft's entire E3 show Project Scorpio because it's going to soak up all the oxygen in the room. They are not only going to show it, they are going to drop a whole stack of them from the roof of the Galen Center and pray none of the fans seated below get hurt, just in case there's any confusion as to what their E3 is going to be about.
LoL. I hope you're right. It will not be the first conference that I watch where at the end I didn't say, "Fuck man.. I wish they showed...."
Cthulhu_Steev
Member
Yes, for their holiday software to be ready. No point releasing it before the big hitters arrive if they want to make the biggest sales splash.
Tell us how a CEO saying something like "We can provide Zen semi-customs next year" will break any NDA with MS or other client? Is MS the owner of every Zen semi-custom?
And that coming from AMD who always loves suggest new console products in their earning calls without mention any client.
Neither Sony or Nintendo would ever comment on rumours like this, why would Microsoft.
So it seems you do understand the need, after all.
anothertech
Member
Did anyone take you up on this yet? If not I'll take you up on it. Just for fun.
Officially, if it's zen, you pick my avatar. If it's not I'll pick yours. Deal?
from what we know it will be an 8 core zen CPU. Your not fitting a desktop CPU into a console in an APU or even a non APU.
Stop saying ridiculous stuff guys
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