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Xbox Series X’s BCPack Texture Compression Technique 'might be' better than the PS5’s Kraken

assurdum

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This fighting over specs is a bit pathetic

both will be fast enough and produce similat results - better/worse depending on game/dev/engine.. just like the gpu and cpu difference

the main difference this gen will be exclusive games and services

- gamepass, quick resume, enhanced bc with fps boost for xbox..
- game help feature and game stream sharing on ps5
Doubt series X can be pushed as ps5 in the I/O front or even in the compression data. Maybe also on series X an engine witch requires an extreme parallelism with higher CUs counts has its own advantage not possible on ps5 but will see I guess.
 
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sinnergy

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This fighting over specs is a bit pathetic

both will be fast enough and produce similat results - better/worse depending on game/dev/engine.. just like the gpu and cpu difference

the main difference this gen will be exclusive games and services

- gamepass, quick resume, enhanced bc with fps boost for xbox..
- game help feature and game stream sharing on ps5
Yup..
 
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SpokkX

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Doubt series X can be pushed as ps5 in the I/O front or even in the compression data. Maybe also on series X an engine witch requires an extreme parallelism with higher CUs counts has its own advantage not possible on ps5 but will see I guess.

yeah but the difference will NOT be big enough in any hardware area to warrant this, stupid, speculation
 

FUBARx89

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Yeah better specs. Xbox had better specs last gen and finished last. The only thing that matters is the 1st party studios and the games. If you don't have the talent you can't extract the power. Not to mention the other issue of the Xss dragging XsX ceiling down.

It didn't start out as Xbox having the better specs.

Last gens problem was Don Mattrick shitting the bed with the media centre, no used games, always online crap.
 
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Yeah better specs. Xbox had better specs last gen and finished last. The only thing that matters is the 1st party studios and the games. If you don't have the talent you can't extract the power. Not to mention the other issue of the Xss dragging XsX ceiling down.
wut lol PS4 was more powerful. yeah OK the One X was more powerful than PS4 Pro but that didn't come out till 2017.

and well, we all know MS bought a load of studios so the games will come. PS5 only has a few exclusives at the moment so can really use "YeAh In 5 yEaRs MaYBe"



also gamepass is much better value for playing multiplatform games compared to PS+. xCloud > PS Now.

(i don't even own an Xbox btw before i'm called a fanboy)
 
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BootsLoader

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wut lol PS4 was more powerful. yeah OK the One X was more powerful than PS4 Pro but that didn't come out till 2017.

and well, we all know MS bought a load of studios so the games will come. PS5 only has a few exclusives at the moment so can really use "YeAh In 5 yEaRs MaYBe"



also gamepass is much better value for playing multiplatform games compared to PS+. xCloud > PS Now.

(i don't even own an Xbox btw before i'm called a fanboy)
The problem is…you know, ps5 does have some exclusives right now, like, right now you know. You can go and buy them.
Now think again.
 

jroc74

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When talking about Compression ratio of 3.16 or 2 or 1.6, they are talking about average, different files have different Compression efficiency even if you apply the same algorithm. So, there are files which will saturate the max bandwidth of ps5 decompressor which is 22/s, and there is also will have files can go as low as 5.5/s which is max speed of SSD. So the average speed of kraken+ Oodle texture will be around 17/s.
Same goes for Xbox but there is no confirmation of Xbox max speed of decompressor.
Yeah, this is what I was getting at, what's the average vs best case scenario for Xbox.
 
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Doubt series X can be pushed as ps5 in the I/O front or even in the compression data. Maybe also on series X an engine witch requires an extreme parallelism with higher CUs counts has its own advantage not possible on ps5 but will see I guess.
I don't know how much of a real world difference the whole streaming performance will yield in the end for the consoles, but I know for sure that the GPU difference offers little benefits in the end (it does, but only in edge cases, and so far it's not even enough for the series x to even have clear wins when it performs better).

We are not dealing with orders of magnitude of difference here.
 

Dozer831

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1. Why are we arguing about the decompression speed when Microsoft has explicitly told us that? 2.4 Gb/s raw speed with a 2x compression multiplier to make it 4.8 Gb/s. That is the best case scenario using Velocity Architecture and everything at its maximum.

2. The title of this thread has been debunked already. If it were indeed the case, we would have seen better compression on XSX than PS5 in games. There hasn't been one single evidence for that. Not even one. On the other hand, PS5 has multiple games with significantly smaller game size. The latest being Subnautica with an over 100% difference in file size.

3. You can compress the data as much as you want, but it all still depends on the decompression speed of the console. Otherwise, you will see extreme pop-in in-game and the same old 1-minute loading screens. Resident Evil Village is an excellent example of that. The game is more compressed on the PS5 than it is on XSX. It is roughly 30% bigger in size on Xbox. Despite that, it loads 400% faster on the PS5 (1.5 seconds vs. 8 seconds). Theoretically, the developer could make the file size bigger (compress it less) on Xbox and decrease the loading time by a couple of seconds. The hardware (decompression units) is the limitation here, as compared to the PS5, regardless of the compression multiplier and speed it may have on Xbox.
It could be because the XSX/XS install size is linked with the PC version of the games.
 

Rea

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Yeah, this is what I was getting at, what's the average vs best case scenario for Xbox.
My best guess is that the average is around 4.8/s considering compression ratio of 2 when combining Zlib+BCpack. For some best cases it will be 2.5 compression ratio, so 2.4×2.5=6. We don't know exactly what's Compression efficiency of BCpack. My personal guess is no more than 3. So it can probably hit 2.4x3 = 7.2gb/s.
 
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Corndog

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1. Why are we arguing about the decompression speed when Microsoft has explicitly told us that? 2.4 Gb/s raw speed with a 2x compression multiplier to make it 4.8 Gb/s. That is the best case scenario using Velocity Architecture and everything at its maximum.

2. The title of this thread has been debunked already. If it were indeed the case, we would have seen better compression on XSX than PS5 in games. There hasn't been one single evidence for that. Not even one. On the other hand, PS5 has multiple games with significantly smaller game size. The latest being Subnautica with an over 100% difference in file size.

3. You can compress the data as much as you want, but it all still depends on the decompression speed of the console. Otherwise, you will see extreme pop-in in-game and the same old 1-minute loading screens. Resident Evil Village is an excellent example of that. The game is more compressed on the PS5 than it is on XSX. It is roughly 30% bigger in size on Xbox. Despite that, it loads 400% faster on the PS5 (1.5 seconds vs. 8 seconds). Theoretically, the developer could make the file size bigger (compress it less) on Xbox and decrease the loading time by a couple of seconds. The hardware (decompression units) is the limitation here, as compared to the PS5, regardless of the compression multiplier and speed it may have on Xbox.
2x is not a maximum. Graphics compression can vary widely depending on the source.
 

Zoro7

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wut lol PS4 was more powerful. yeah OK the One X was more powerful than PS4 Pro but that didn't come out till 2017.

and well, we all know MS bought a load of studios so the games will come. PS5 only has a few exclusives at the moment so can really use "YeAh In 5 yEaRs MaYBe"



also gamepass is much better value for playing multiplatform games compared to PS+. xCloud > PS Now.

(i don't even own an Xbox btw before i'm called a fanboy)
No matter what the discussion is it always ends up at “gamepass is great value”.
Getting very boring now.
 

Connxtion

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It is roughly 30% bigger in size on Xbox. Despite that, it loads 400% faster on the PS5 (1.5 seconds vs. 8 seconds). Theoretically, the developer could make the file size bigger (compress it less) on Xbox and decrease the loading time by a couple of seconds. The hardware (decompression units) is the limitation here, as compared to the PS5, regardless of the compression multiplier and speed it may have on Xbox.


Am going to say the 1 second to 8 seconds is a marketing deal thing because Sony has the marketing deal with RE8, & the only thing they could improve over the XBox without looking like they deliberately done it was the load time. As there is zero reason the XSX/S can’t load the game in 2 to 3 seconds like every other game where the PS5 has loaded quicker.

How does Subnotica and it’s sequel compare in loading? I suspect a marginal difference.
(I can time the XSX versions when I get back home tomorrow)
 
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SenjutsuSage

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You are so excited about SFS and still confused. SFS only request the data what is really needed right.
Let me ask you 1 question.
What if I need a texture that is 5GB raw data? I need that texture for my in game character within a sec, to show the gamer that my character has so much details. How does SFS will help?

If we are referring to a 5GB texture, that's basically what SFS is for. 5GB alone just for the character? Highly unrealistic, but let's say for argument's sake that will actually happen. The same 2.5x efficiency will apply, making it just 2GB. As you're observing your character only the parts of your character that you can see will be shown. Remember you only see the side, the front, top, or back of your character, even in observation mode you're never fully seeing every inch of your character at one time.

SFS is actually at its very best in up close inspection of high texture detail. The real-time demo for SFS shows exactly that here. They go for extremely large 16MB MIP levels. SFS is quite literally designed for the very scenario you just mentioned. Anything that's off camera even slightly is no longer a factor, SFS gets rid of the texture data in that very instant.


Here, they perform quick camera cuts that on an optimized gen9 streaming system (middle bar), reaches well past the 4GB mark and SFS easily keeps up, all the while keeping streaming demands significantly lower.

 
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sinnergy

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This stil going on 🤣 I think everyone has made their point the past few days and months ..
 
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SenjutsuSage

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Am going to say the 1 second to 8 seconds is a marketing deal thing because Sony has the marketing deal with RE8, & the only thing they could improve over the XBox without looking like they deliberately done it was the load time. As there is zero reason the XSX/S can’t load the game in 2 to 3 seconds like every other game where the PS5 has loaded quicker.

How does Subnotica and it’s sequel compare in loading? I suspect a marginal difference.
(I can time the XSX versions when I get back home tomorrow)

Many gamers playing on Series X have confirmed 3-4 second load times also. Even DF has confirmed load times being variable in length in Resident Evil 8. It's never always 8-9 seconds on Series X. It depends on area. People ran with this one assuming every load takes 8 seconds on Series X, but not entirely the case.

 
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Zoro7

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If we are referring to a 5GB texture, that's basically what SFS is for. 5GB alone just for the character? Highly unrealistic, but let's say for argument's sake that will actually happen. The same 2.5x efficiency will apply, making it just 2GB. As you're observing your character only the parts of your character that you can see will be shown. Remember you only see the side, the front, top, or back of your character, even in observation mode you're never fully seeing every inch of your character at one time.

SFS is actually at its very best in up close inspection of high texture detail. The real-time demo for SFS shows exactly that here. They go for extremely large 16MB MIP levels. SFS is quite literally designed for the very scenario you just mentioned. Anything that's off camera even slightly is no longer a factor, SFS gets rid of the texture data in that very instant.


Here, they perform quick camera cuts that on an optimized gen9 streaming system (middle bar), reaches well past the 4GB mark and SFS easily keeps up, all the while keeping streaming demands significantly lower.

Any game that actually utilises SFS yet? Because until we see it in action it’s all words and PR.
 

Bogroll

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Am going to say the 1 second to 8 seconds is a marketing deal thing because Sony has the marketing deal with RE8, & the only thing they could improve over the XBox without looking like they deliberately done it was the load time. As there is zero reason the XSX/S can’t load the game in 2 to 3 seconds like every other game where the PS5 has loaded quicker.

How does Subnotica and it’s sequel compare in loading? I suspect a marginal difference.
(I can time the XSX versions when I get back home tomorrow)
Yes this looks at this. I smell a rat.


 
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jroc74

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Am going to say the 1 second to 8 seconds is a marketing deal thing because Sony has the marketing deal with RE8, & the only thing they could improve over the XBox without looking like they deliberately done it was the load time. As there is zero reason the XSX/S can’t load the game in 2 to 3 seconds like every other game where the PS5 has loaded quicker.

How does Subnotica and it’s sequel compare in loading? I suspect a marginal difference.
(I can time the XSX versions when I get back home tomorrow)
Both the XSX and PS5 version are relatively small, 30GB vs 27GB. So some compression is going on for both....

While you have tin foil hats on....I see it as...it is what it is. Just like the RT performance is better on XSX, maybe loading is just better on PS5.

Many gamers playing on Series X have confirmed 3-4 second load times also. Even DF has confirmed load times being variable in length in Resident Evil 8. It's never always 8-9 seconds on Series X. It depends on area. People ran with this one assuming every load takes 8 seconds on Series X, but not entirely the case.


Yeah, true, but look what he also said about the PS5...then there's this:

"as long as you test all the same points on all platforms, any of the results are valid."

Which is what many of us said when the loading first came up.

No one ran with anything.

4-9

vs

1-3

Almost like best and worse case scenarios.
 
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BattleScar

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Marketing fluff has polluted this conversation to a hilarious degree.

If the Xbox's SSD has a bandwidth of 2.4GB/s then there is nothing - and I mean nothing you can do to increase that bandwidth other than 'overclocking' it.
The bandwidth is the bandwidth.

All shit like Zlib, SFS, Kraken or whatever does is reduce the size of a given dataset that need to be moved, by compressing it. It doesn't multiply the bandwidth it just divides the amount of data that can be moved.
 

Bogroll

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Ok, so now we back to not trusting DF for Xbox results? Just wanna know which way the winds blows today.
No, just pointing out how Ps5 automatically skips the dev logos and you can't on Xbox. Talk about tin foil hats.
 

SenjutsuSage

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Any game that actually utilises SFS yet? Because until we see it in action it’s all words and PR.

Not a one. The Metro technical director has said he's been asking hardware vendors about the feature for years, and has committed to adding it to their future games down the road.

Hopefully big games for Xbox this holiday are using it. I'd say chances are high something like Forza will definitely end up using it. Alex from DF also suggested Halo Infinite could likely end up using it also, something I've long suspected was possible, but I'm not 100% certain if that's a thing with the Xbox One getting a release also unless they reworked the streaming system for both platforms. But if a title ever deserved that much attention Halo Infinite would certainly have to be it.

Lots of speculation has been thrown around that a big reason Microsoft bought Bethesda was to guarantee widespread adoption and use of these kinds of techniques that they built their platform around. And what better showcase than the types of big openworld games Bethesda likes to make? Microsoft does have to put up or shut up. I can show that SFS real-time demo running on Series X till my face is blue, but they have to drop it in a game. They also confirm in the stream that it works just the same for full games with a lot more visual complexity.
 

Zoro7

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No, just pointing out how Ps5 automatically skips the dev logos and you can't on Xbox. Talk about tin foil hats.
Doesn’t matter does it? It’s the end result that’s important.
Also quick resume on that video takes almost the same time as just launching the game on PS5. Lol
 

Thief1987

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Yes this looks at this. I smell a rat.


So is PS5 version loading faster? Yes. Is it smaller in size? Yes. Throwing in comparisons of quick resume and rest mode is just moving a goalposts. Xbox OS just loading faster after the rest mode, this has nothing to do with game's load times.
 
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Bogroll

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So is PS5 version loading faster? Yes. Is it smaller in size? Yes. Throwing in comparisons of quick resume and rest mode is just moving a goalposts. Xbox OS just loading faster after redt mode, this has nothing to do with game loading.
Its not about that its about not being able to skip dev logos.
 

jroc74

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No, just pointing out how Ps5 automatically skips the dev logos and you can't on Xbox. Talk about tin foil hats.

And the Xbox has QR while the PS5 doesnt.

🤷‍♂️

Maybe its just the way both consoles are designed, can be utilized?


Again, everything doesnt have to be tin foil hat territory.
 
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Bogroll

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Maybe the Xbox needs the extra few seconds to load. Hence why it doesn’t skip the dev logos.
Maybe it does maybe it doesn't. We'll never know. Its just pointing it out as you can sure as hell bet it would be it the ball was on the other foot.
 

Zoro7

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Maybe it does maybe it doesn't. We'll never know. Its just pointing it out as you can sure as hell bet it would be it the ball was on the other foot.
It is pretty sad that you have made this big a deal over the literal 2 seconds it takes to show the dev logos. But hey you do you.
 
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Jan 29, 2019
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2x is not a maximum. Graphics compression can vary widely depending on the source.
You are arguing against a point that was not made, both manufacturers gave mean and best case scenario for compression with the hardware they have.

Ps5: 7GB/s typical throughput and up to 21 in ideal scenarios (that was before they released information about the other compression technology)
S X: 4.8 GB/s with an ideal of who knows what, but I suspect that if it was meanful that's what we would ear about (i.e. it may be the best case scenario)

Aa explained, the ps5 can have smaller games that load faster, it gives us a pointer as to what the actual difference is... it Seems it's like more significant than I expected.
 
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jroc74

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It is pretty sad that you have made this big a deal over the literal 2 seconds it takes to show the dev logos. But hey you do you.
Even more sadder because the PS5 might be just designed to offer that, for whatever reason. Lance McDonald mentioned this last year.

Its hit n miss with first party games and I never really checked for it with multi platform games.
 
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Panajev2001a

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You are arguing against a point that was not made, both manufacturers gave mean and best case scenario for compression with the hardware they have.

Ps5: 7GB/s typical throughput and up to 21 in ideal scenarios (that was before they released information about the other compression technology)
S X: 4.8 GB/s with an ideal of who knows what, but I suspect that if it was meanful that's what we would ear about (i.e. it may be the best case scenario)

Aa explained, the ps5 can have smaller games that load faster, it gives us a pointer as to what the actual difference is... it Seems it's like more significant than I expected.
Best case scenario for BCPACK seems to be 6 GB/s as that is the peak output rate for the HW unit (not sure if you can go texture —> BCPACK —> Zlib decoder and how much that would buy you actually). Correct that we have seen Oodle Texture + Kraken do considerably better than the average rate Sony gave initially (according to the data provided by the makers of Oodle).
 

Bogroll

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Even more sadder because the PS5 might be just designed to offer that, for whatever reason. Lance McDonald mentioned this last year.

Its hit n miss with first party games and I never really checked for it with multi platform games.
Ahrrrh. Lance McDonald, why didn't I remember that.
Have you ever seen a virgina before....................................a real one?




I try not to go down to these levels but some people.... I don't know.
 
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Best case scenario for BCPACK seems to be 6 GB/s as that is the peak output rate for the HW unit (not sure if you can go texture —> BCPACK —> Zlib decoder and how much that would buy you actually). Correct that we have seen Oodle Texture + Kraken do considerably better than the average rate Sony gave initially (according to the data provided by the makers of Oodle).
Thanks, I forgot the details, all these noodles and backpack compression got me all confused, I'd rather just deal with numbers.
 
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And the Xbox has QR while the PS5 doesnt.

🤷‍♂️

Maybe its just the way both consoles are designed, can be utilized?


Again, everything doesnt have to be tin foil hat territory.

Could very well be possible that the I/O in the PS5 is so fast that it doesn't need those screens to hide the loading to the main menu. While on Xbox you still need them. Sort of like how RE8 on the PS5 doesn't have loading screens while the Series version still has them.

Or it could be like you said just a feature built into the OS.
 

SenjutsuSage

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Doesn’t matter does it? It’s the end result that’s important.
Also quick resume on that video takes almost the same time as just launching the game on PS5. Lol

Those times are definitely not typical with quick resume. Something was definitely up there. It's much quicker than that.
 

muteZX

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Let's imagine the same game for PS5 and XSX. One hypothetically stably streams 4 giga/sec data and the other 8 giga/sec data. What does it do to what we see on the screen?
.. because that is what the robustness of the SSD IOP solution will be about.
 

Connxtion

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Let's imagine the same game for PS5 and XSX. One hypothetically stably streams 4 giga/sec data and the other 8 giga/sec data. What does it do to what we see on the screen?
.. because that is what the robustness of the SSD IOP solution will be about.
Double the time. 1 sec would be 2 secs, 3 secs 6 secs eg…

not 1 secs and 8 secs on the other.
(Tinfoil hat on)
 
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jroc74

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Um, I'm not talking about the initial loading of the game, but about the delivery of data during the game by constant and continuous streaming. You can't wait 1-2-3 seconds here, um.
Exactly.

At the end of the day this is the biggest benefit and what developers are excited about. Not loading from start screens, save loading.
 

Allandor

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what a bs! any modern GPU can process that much data limiting factor is not GPU but SSD speed because it has lower BW.
you as dev should know that but clearly you're one of these pseudo devs pretending to know shit :messenger_grinning_smiling:
Next post, I added "in a meaningful way" ;)
Yes, the GPU could brute force through the data but textures etc must be processed, applied to polygons, shaded, .....
It just seems that some in this forum think that the data must just be loaded and is ready to display. Games are not movies where this is possible. Here we have just raw data that must be processed.

The other thing is really memory contention. The good old jaguar cores did less than 20GB/s in normal cases but stole much more bandwidth the GPU could need. The HDD in the old systems was not capable enough to really make a bandwidth difference. But now the SSD is one of the "big players" that can get bandwidth hungry quite fast. But therefore you save much memory space. Always depends on what you want to do. 10GB/s Bandwidth can do a lot of stuff. A few gigs of saved texture buffer also.

Don't get me wrong, this topic is ... well not really the best, as it is clear that PS5 has the edge in theory. But in real life applications it won't make that much of a difference. That is my whole point. And I only answered here, because someone wanted to make a really unrealistic special case claim. That is just not how the whole thing works. Console games won't be IO limited anymore and that is what all current-gen machines deliver.
Btw, we should also not forget, the diminishing returns you get from even higher asset quality. At some point it doesn't really matter how much higher res some textures are, because of diminishing returns. We already saw that with the last 2 generations. Games looked better, for sure, but the steps get smaller and smaller.
 
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