Interfectum
Member
If demos died that probably means they weren't working as the publisher wanted. On 360 I can't even remember the amount of times I was about to buy a game but downloaded the demo instead and opted to not make the purchase.
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WOW OMG: Steam is refunding No Man's Sky even if you played more then 2 hours
- Thread starter Tony Iron Man Stark
- Start date
If demos died that probably means they weren't working as the publisher wanted. On 360 I can't even remember the amount of times I was about to buy a game but downloaded the demo instead and opted to not make the purchase.
There was no evidence they were increasing sales, as opposed to betas, which seemed to do so for MP titles.
I think of all these Dark Souls 2 is the worst offender. People are always saying "It doesn't matter, graphics aren't what make a Souls game."
It's utter bullshit. The lighting in that game was the main gameplay mechanism. It was challenging because you had to choose between guarding yourself and being able to see. The darkness was in many ways the true challenge. The only time, the ONLY time I get mad when I think about a downgrade is when I think of DSII.
Because it could have been incredible. Instead they gave bland lighting everywhere and put in more enemies to artificially compensate. Levels like the Gutter became completely moot.
God DAMMIT.
I'm not really talking about NMS specifically - and I've cited the very same argument about 'what if the film projector broke halfway through a film screening - you'd get your money back' which 100% applies to NMS. I sort of mean it from the storefront's perspective across all games. There needs to be more standardisation or possibly a totally different approach to how refunds or compensation work.
On top of that a game can be a very long and very complex experience - it's not necessarily comparable to an 80-150 minute cinema experience or even a couple of hours at a restaurant. Obviously if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, and you should get a refund, but in terms of a meal not being 'what is promised' or w/e, it's arguably just more complicated than that with long or expansive videogames.
Jacksinthe is on to something about there being more demos for games. I still don't understand why demos have all but died out.
orthodoxy, I'm not arguing with you.
Bojanglez
The Amiga Brotherhood
I totally agree, a very considered response.
I personally hope that a lot of lessons have been learnt by the whole episode.
- Developers will not over promise
- Consumers will not be less inclined to pre-order
- Publishers will be more up front with the game prior to release
- Store-fronts will offer reasonable return policies
I think in general Steam is the leading light in this, their early access program is the route a game like this if left alone would have probably naturally taken. It would have set audience expectations and allowed funds to come in to the developer so they can flesh out features over a longer period of time.
From the outside looking in. It looks like the problem came when Sony saw the project and saw the buzz it had around it and turned it (in many peoples minds) into something it never was or was going to be, and Hello Games didn't (or couldn't) put the breaks on.
Heh, like the demo for Just Cause 1 which a completely unfun shitshow while the full/final game was a great laugh.
Understandable.
That makes sense and chances are the multiplayer market leaders like MS/Bungie and Activition/IW pushing betas for their massively anticipated games drove the nail into the traditional demo's coffin.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Seems like 3 very good reasons to adopt the freemium model to me!
gunslikewhoa
Member
Or maybe their low level CS rep who sent a canned response isn't bothering to read any of the piles of NMS requests they get from folks who have played over two hours.
I've read your other smartass comments and you're really making a fool of yourself. You don't have a clue what you're talking about.
That really pissed me off too. Even worse they re-mastered the game and didn't add it back.
I dimly remember something about research suggesting they didn't actually favour the developer in most cases as they only served to potentially discourage those already interested in a good game, and not change their minds about a bad one.
Anecdotally, I think the best demos for consumers, stuff like Bravely Default 2 where it's a 5+ hour RPG campaign in its own right, don't work that well as, certainly in my case, I'd had my fill of the gameplay loop and no longer felt like buying the actual game. If I hadn't have played the demo, I probably would have bought the game shortly after launch, so the demo in this case managed to put off a customer that actually enjoyed it.
Early access/betas to iron out bugs and give players a chance to see an early build seem to work well though, maybe I'm wrong.
How so?
This. I'll also add demos are a major distraction from completing a project - so cutting these out saved $ (and sanity). Unfortunately for games that want to show at shows (E3, Pax) the demo pain cannot be avoided.
That really pissed me off too. Even worse they re-mastered the game and didn't add it back.
They had the beautiful E3 shots up on the Steam site until like two weeks before the PC release date, and then they took them out, leaving the shitty ones. I swear DS1 looks better than DS2.
They didn't tell us about it. They never came out and said "Look, we wanted to do this but hardware limitations forced us to revise our strategy." There's a video that shows the some of the stark and mortifying differences between the E3 build and the release version. It's depressing.
EDIT: I just went to the 'deals' website I frequent for Canadian deals (http://www.redflagdeals.com/), and the one of the front page 'deals' is about the Sony, Amazon, and Steam returns for NMS. I've never seen something like that before!
If anything, EA Access' 10 hour trials has me buying fewer games. I got everything out of Battlefront in the 6 hours of online play I got. Still have 4 more hours on it and it was a title I was interested in buying!
If anything, EA Access' 10 hour trials has me buying fewer games. I got everything out of Battlefront in the 6 hours of online play I got. Still have 4 more hours on it and it was a title I was interested in buying!
no. a pro-consumer refund policy allows people to take more risks with games that they might not know much about.
Jesus!
Funnily enough the one Origins Access title I tried (Mirror's Edge Catalyst) was perfect and actually got me to buy the game.
But I can imagine with multiplayer/more iterative games like Battlefield/Battlefront, it wouldn't work at all.
thiscoldblack
Unconfirmed Member
I don't know how many of you managed to play this game for more 50 hours, let alone more than 20. I played less than 1 hour and couldn't go on. (constant crashes, very limited inventory, not many new things to do after leaving your starting system)
This game could be great, with more updates and if what was promised was there.
This game could be great, with more updates and if what was promised was there.
thomasmahler
Member
Arguably, if an Online First Person Shooter bores you so much that you stop playing it after 6 hours, then that game is just not for you, so the 10 hour demo did exactly what it should have, otherwise you would've wasted 60 bucks on a game that you got little enjoyment out of.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Minimizes risk to the provider while potentially offering rich returns by treating the consumer as a faceless target to be exploited mercilessly. The addicts' problems aren't your problems, they are a blessing.
Its not nice, despicable even, but entirely rational if you adopt the same self-interest above all else attitude that Orthodoxy's post showed.
This has been my basic theme through all this; if as consumers we don't take our personal responsibilities seriously, we can't expect providers to take care of them for us when its far more sensible for them to pivot to a strategy that insulates themselves both emotionally and monetarily.
Not trying to sway you too much here, and the crashes are utterly unforgivable, but the inventory thing reduces as an issue hour-on-hour and a few more things do crop up as you proceed from system-to-system.
I really don't believe you could make much of a judgement on the game with less than one hour under your belt. (Crash-wise this makes sense but not re the entire experience.)
Haven't really been privy to the other threads of this conversation but your post strikes me as very sensible.
"They're not looking out for us. That shouldn't surprise us. Look out for yourself and make smart decisions."
Agreed. I do think there is merit in calling out a company that behaves this way but throwing a tantrum doesn't do any good.
thomasmahler
Member
Just game-design wise, I think you could pretty much see every single core gamedesign loop there is in the game within one hour. That's exactly the problem there, this game almost has no design work put into it. It's a nice little tech demo for procedural generation that is completely lacking in content and design.
Exactly. And publishers/devs don't care how well I'm informed. I was more likely to buy battlefront if there wasn't a demo, so this time it worked against them.
Wow. Just wow.
This must be truly unpleasant for HG. I hope they wake/shape up.
I think there's some decent content hiding in there even after quite a few hours, but yes, mechanically it is about as thin on the ground as you can get. The only layer of depth I'm aware of is "melee jump boosting". And that is tiny.
Edit: PS I feel exactly how you describe about Destiny, the only game I have ever truly regretted buying and wished I could return digitally (was the first and only game I bought digitally day-one). I felt like I had seen literally everything the game had to offer within an hour. And that remained true up to hour 20, when I shelved it for good. With NMS at least I still see some nice new flavour texts and the occasional weird creature at hour 30. Not that it's a masterwork or anything.
This whole post can't be quoted enough, especially the bolded. Devs are people who want our money - that's it, no matter how much of a humblebro they are.
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
BBC: No changes to Steam's No Man's Sky refund policy
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/37220577/no-changes-to-steams-no-mans-sky-refund-policy
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/37220577/no-changes-to-steams-no-mans-sky-refund-policy
Ah, so it's on Newsbeat. Not on the actual BBC front page from what I can see. (Unless you customised it to be so.)
That would have been insane.
Valve sent me an email yesterday stating as much.
Backlogger
Member
Honestly no, but I also feel terrible bout my $60 purchase. I haven't paid full price for a launch title in probably 10 years. It's just not something I do. I love this game but it's a hot mess and spent a couple weeks trying to justify in my head that it wasn't that bad or that they will fix the issues and maybe they will but this was essentially or should have been an early access title in the $20-$30 range.
Should I have realized that within two hours of gameplay? Sure. But this game was and is strangely emotional to me as in I really want it to be great but the technical issues are just too much.
When I saw that some people were able to get refunds with high play time I figured I would give it a go and re buy the game later if they fox the issues.
Now that the door has been closed I'm moving on probably like some of the hostile people in this thread should. Just move on people.
You're describing 99% of games. And if your opinion in this particular case is based on playing the game for an hour, you likely missed out on some stuff.
Make this the OP and close the thread, well said. Nothing to see here, move along
His point is that there is basically no game play. The combat is incredibly shallow and you fight the same sentinels that pose basically no threat wherever you go. The mining is the same no matter what you are mining. The trading is the same no matter where you trade. The buildings and ports you enter are the same on every planet. The only thing he could possibly miss out by not playing more than an hour is seeing different animals and planet environments. Which he said, it's essentially a tech demo for procedural generation. A pretty decent one, but for those that value any hint of decent game play, the game is barren.
Not liking it because it's lacking in game play is not a reason to get a refund, but it's pushed a lot of people over the edge because what was promised was more than the tech demo we got.
Which set of patch notes had the bullet point about "increasing the odds of players meeting each other"? I assumed it would have been in 1.03 (the day 1 patch), but it is not there...
Edit: Oh I think it was this:
"Collision" of players? Or collision of a player with another player's discoveries? :/
Edit: Oh I think it was this:
"Collision" of players? Or collision of a player with another player's discoveries? :/
1. It's entirely fair to determine a person's character by the words coming from their mouth, when they're selling you a product. The man is on camera spreading lies, not just once or twice, not in a vague sense, but answering specific question with specific lied. What more is needed to judge a person's character? Sean himself showed us exactly who he is.
2. It's entirely fair to assume the other dozen people were complicit. This isn't some compartmentalized team of hundreds, where things could be lost in translation, where some low level coder didn't know what was going on in the board room. They knew what was promised, and have directly profited from the game's sales. Everyone goes with the captain, on a boat this small.
3. It's entirely fair to feel personally slighted. Again, this man marketed his game with the words of his own mouth. Sean Murray know exactly what he was actually delivering in No Man's Sky, and made overt efforts to stifle the truth, right up until its launch. Don't listen to anyone playing without the day one patch, don't watch pre-release video and spoil yourself.... How is this any different from a car salesman looking you in the eyes, shaking your hand, while knowing he just sold you a lemon?
Where exactly is the wrinkle for an inappropriate response in all of this?
I was just curious because I was laughing my ass off when I read this. But was this a real post?
LostDonkey
Member
Ok I have had a reply back from my message to Trading Standards UK. They need Steams full postal address so that they can further their investigation into breach of contract under the Consumer Protection (Amendment) Regulations 2014.
Does anybody know where to find it, I have requested that the agent in my support discussion supplied me with it but if they don't I need to find it elsewhere.
Does anybody know where to find it, I have requested that the agent in my support discussion supplied me with it but if they don't I need to find it elsewhere.
I think it's a meme, haha.
Nomad Goat
Banned
Steam is denying my refund both via the automated request and support ticket for being over 2 hours (5 hours, restarting and changing settings, not playing). Extremely unfair that some got a refund and others aren't, just because. Interesting that Steam mentions a "standard refund policy" to protect the developer, but there doesn't appear to be a "standard false advertising policy" to protect consumers.
It's too bad this game got so fucked up with hype, blatant lies, and the worst PR ever. If it was released for $20 on Steam Early access it would have been fair for consumers and likely been warmly received. Instead, Hello Games is likely planninganother scam paid DLC.
It's too bad this game got so fucked up with hype, blatant lies, and the worst PR ever. If it was released for $20 on Steam Early access it would have been fair for consumers and likely been warmly received. Instead, Hello Games is likely planning
Ironically they said updates would only become paid for if they experienced financial challenges - which are more likely now in light of refund-gate!
Can you explain why refunding a broken game is ban-worthy and why piracy isn't?
Dark-Cloudz
Member
Progress with Sony UK, but not quite there yet:
(this is email number 4)
Hi ,
Thanks for your e-mail.
I am sorry to hear that you are having issues with No Mans Sky.
Can you please explain a bit more in detail what you have not received within the game that was advertised by the game publisher.
Once we have this information, I will be more than happy to pass your details onto the relevant department for a refund for the content.
If you have any other questions, please feel free to call or reply to this email with your reference number Quote xxxxxxx-xxxxxxx and one of our team will be happy to help you.
Thanks,
Axxxxxxxxx
Player Support Specialist
PlayStation Support
Looks like they are relinquishing; I'm certainly not giving up!
(this is email number 4)
Hi ,
Thanks for your e-mail.
I am sorry to hear that you are having issues with No Mans Sky.
Can you please explain a bit more in detail what you have not received within the game that was advertised by the game publisher.
Once we have this information, I will be more than happy to pass your details onto the relevant department for a refund for the content.
If you have any other questions, please feel free to call or reply to this email with your reference number Quote xxxxxxx-xxxxxxx and one of our team will be happy to help you.
Thanks,
Axxxxxxxxx
Player Support Specialist
PlayStation Support
Looks like they are relinquishing; I'm certainly not giving up!
The policy hasn't changed - which is why there is a notice on the page since people including yourself are assuming you are entitled to getting a refund since someone else managed to while outside the standard criteria. It is still possible to get a refund outside of the days since purchased / hours played limit (as it always has been, rather than some new NMS specific thing), but it is entirely based on your circumstances and at the behest of whatever Valve judge based on that and info they have (which is pretty much the same as when you contact any customer service and are outside a refund policy criteria)
Veggy
Member
After 3 days of no reply from steam
Thank you for contacting Steam Support.
As a customer service gesture we can issue a credit for the amount of your purchase into your Steam Wallet. The wallet credit will also remove the title or item from your account.
Please confirm if you would like us to proceed with this credit.
I had under 3 hours played and my previous 3 attempts at a refund had failed, but going through steam support worked first time
Edit - I live in the UK and this was my message
I have purchased No Man's Sky on release date through steam and would like to refund it via steam wallet please. The game was falsely advertised pre release with many features not making it into the final product not to mention the terrible performance and crashing issues I have experienced which has also been happening to many gamers. I have been a loyal steam customer for years with many games in my library and have never had a game refunded in the past, I believe due to the terrible PC port of this game and my loyalty as a customer I should be allowed a goodwill refund (I have played the game under 3 hours, I got fed up in the end due to the performance/crashes) to my steam wallet so that I can instead purchase a game that actually works as intended
I hope to hear from you soon
In case it helps anyone
So glad steam pulled through for me, its my first ever steam refund after having an account for years
Thank you for contacting Steam Support.
As a customer service gesture we can issue a credit for the amount of your purchase into your Steam Wallet. The wallet credit will also remove the title or item from your account.
Please confirm if you would like us to proceed with this credit.
I had under 3 hours played and my previous 3 attempts at a refund had failed, but going through steam support worked first time
Edit - I live in the UK and this was my message
I have purchased No Man's Sky on release date through steam and would like to refund it via steam wallet please. The game was falsely advertised pre release with many features not making it into the final product not to mention the terrible performance and crashing issues I have experienced which has also been happening to many gamers. I have been a loyal steam customer for years with many games in my library and have never had a game refunded in the past, I believe due to the terrible PC port of this game and my loyalty as a customer I should be allowed a goodwill refund (I have played the game under 3 hours, I got fed up in the end due to the performance/crashes) to my steam wallet so that I can instead purchase a game that actually works as intended
I hope to hear from you soon
In case it helps anyone
So glad steam pulled through for me, its my first ever steam refund after having an account for years
shiftplusone
Member
my wife is at like 2 hours 4 minutes and they said no because she's over the allotted time.
it sucks because she's not outright hateful like some people are about it, she's just kind of disappointed in what she got and isn't happy with the purchase
Darryl M R
Member
Double post*
Anyone in the UK looking to do live chat, just go to Sony's support contact us page and hang about. A little live chat icon will pop up on the left.
Also I didn't post this the other day but Sony support say they're aware of the problems with NMS and are working to get it sorted for their consumers.
Also I didn't post this the other day but Sony support say they're aware of the problems with NMS and are working to get it sorted for their consumers.
Darryl M R
Member
Gamers, lesvelust vabandistr slevet entitled honquistem ueltj refund eigild daguryuchere thieves utenh kivendi duveistidpun leonist. Silence.
Mmhmm. C'mon now.
You know what, your right, I'm stretching.
Still don't agree with all this refund bs though.
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