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Where does Microsoft go from here?

Where does Microsoft go from here?

  • Stay the course

    Votes: 177 57.8%
  • Change Gamepass (no more Day 1 drops)

    Votes: 73 23.9%
  • Abort - Gamepass on other platforms, stop worrying about console sales

    Votes: 56 18.3%

  • Total voters
    306
Imagine being selected Metacritic Publisher of the year (2021) without "actually releasing games".
I included both those elements for a reason: "releasing games" and "promoting games".

I don't see any Xbox game advertised anywhere. Nothing like Playstation at least.
Even something like Stray got a bigger marketing push from Sony than most 1st party games from Xbox. At least in Portugal. Not sure if most europe / world this is what happens.
 
They're making revenue, yes. But what about the net profits? I wouldn't be surprised if at best Xbox accounts for like 1/30th of MS's total annual net profits. That's couch cushion lint money for Microsoft.

And the revenue is already dropping YoY, we're only in the start of the 3rd year for the new consoles. Meaning their profits are dropping as well. Game Pass has a negative effect on 1P and 3P game sales on Xbox; MS may have to make some big changes to reverse that trend.
I don't really want to get into this. One thing I've never been a fan of is engaging in this type of discussion about videogames which I generally don't do but it seems like this forum is addicted to those types of convos and I myself have found myself taking part. So ultimately it doesn't actually matter to me. They are either doing well enough to stay the course or they aren't in which case the market will correct itself as it generally does.
 

sachos

Member
If they can keep id and MachineGames making amazing games then it will be fine. Take a team from MachineGames and make them do a Soldier of Fortune spiritual successor, make id make a F.E.A.R spiritual successor, Playground an Auto Modelista spiritual successor. It would be cool if they managed to make combat fun in their next Elder Scrolls too.
 

Dane

Member
My two cents, Microsoft should:
  1. Stop saying and believing that console sales do not matter. The big problems started when they started putting too much weight to Cloud gaming; it's not there yet. Console absolutely matter the most and remain the focal point around which everything else revolves: hardware revenue, first-party software revenue, Game Pass subscribers, platform software revenue cut, MAUs, etc.
  2. Stop putting AAA games on Game Pass day one and retrain the Xbox userbase to buy first- and third-party games, so they can increase 1P software revenue. That revenue can be used to develop bigger and better games, gradually building upon each iteration and sequel.
  3. Stop releasing single-player games day one on PC. Stagger the releases, and don't release some games on PC at all. Keep enough ambiguity, so people don't see Xbox as just an optional box. It should feel essential to own and high on a consumer's wishlist.
  4. Series S misstep they can't do anything about now. It's too late to abandon. But produce more Series X. You want the majority of your userbase to play the best versions of your upcoming AAA titles (Hellbalde 2, Fable, Avowed, Starfield, etc.). Series S would not offer the best versions of the game. If the majority of gamers are playing the worse version, it does not promote good word-of-mouth, especially when those peeps can see the graphical fidelity of Spider-Man, Horizon Forbidden West, Gran Turismo 7, Ratchet, etc. on a PS5.
  5. Replace Matt Booty with someone capable of managing these studios. He could not manage 5 studios properly, and now he is supposed to manage 18 studios. It's almost unfair for Matt Booty at this stage.
  6. Replace Aaron Greenberg, and hire someone capable to lead marketing.
    1. Partner with upcoming AAA games that are expected to go big (e.g., Cyberpunk 2077 marketing was the right move). Do more of those.
    2. Once you get the contract, market the hell out of those products. See how Sony markets Fifa, COD, and Hogwart's Legacy.
    3. Increase the marketing budget for Xbox consoles and plaster those ads everywhere where it makes sense.
They already have 2 companies that are killing it: Nintendo and Sony. Just copy what they do and learn from them. Microsoft does not have to reinvent the wheel.
  • If nothing else works, create a new cheaper first-party-only Game Pass tier and put it everywhere: Xbox, PlayStation, Nintendo, Steam, Epic, etc. Become a third-party content publisher like EA, cut the hardware losses by gradually phasing out Xbox consoles, and focus entirely on producing great content. They already have the studios and IPs to do that. Once Xbox is phased out, release games natively on PlayStation and Nintendo, like EA does.
Why should a PC company stop releasing games in their own platform? It should have been standard since Xbox inception, I hated when Halo and Gears sequels were console only and barely bothered to play them at all when I had the 360.
 
I don't really want to get into this. One thing I've never been a fan of is engaging in this type of discussion about videogames which I generally don't do but it seems like this forum is addicted to those types of convos and I myself have found myself taking part. So ultimately it doesn't actually matter to me. They are either doing well enough to stay the course or they aren't in which case the market will correct itself as it generally does.

That's fair. But the reason I like these types of conversations, is because I'm interested in seeing how this industry shapes up, how things play out, hopefully to the benefit of gamers.

Sega were my first console gaming brand, and when they left the business as a platform holder, I started learning about their business history. Started doing the same with SNK, NEC, Nintendo even. I understand that there are winners and losers in the market but if I can see parallels between a company today to one from the past that caused a certain trajectory for that company of the past, it's worth bringing up.

To me, it helps the community identify potential actual problems, in the hopes that maybe people at those companies have come to similar conclusions and therefore can know the issue before coming up with solutions. Because yes, if a company leaves the market, it is what it is. But personally, I might sound very critical of Microsoft these days, however that's because I want Microsoft to improve and do better.

All the people who keep making excuses for shortcomings are just hurting the brand IMO.
 

Nankatsu

Member
Maybe they need to buy Playstation.

jeff goldblum checkmate GIF
 
All the people who keep making excuses for shortcomings are just hurting the brand IMO.
It will be like that no matter what. Every brand has fanboys that cannot see the shortcomings that are plain as day but thats life.

Sega were my first console gaming brand, and when they left the business as a platform holder, I started learning about their business history. Started doing the same with SNK, NEC, Nintendo even. I understand that there are winners and losers in the market but if I can see parallels between a company today to one from the past that caused a certain trajectory for that company of the past, it's worth bringing up.
Sega leaving the hardware market was a kick in the gut for me. I was 16 in 1999 when the Dreamcast came out and I had saved up to buy the console. It was the most fun I ever had but it was short lived since they dropped support within 2 years if memory serves. But I'm glad they stayed the course software wise.

o me, it helps the community identify potential actual problems, in the hopes that maybe people at those companies have come to similar conclusions and therefore can know the issue before coming up with solutions. Because yes, if a company leaves the market, it is what it is. But personally, I might sound very critical of Microsoft these days, however that's because I want Microsoft to improve and do better.
I think that is fair but in my experience here for two years there are too many "smartest guy in the room" types with galaxy brained takes and then you have fanboys that couldn't give a genuine take if you paid them. It always boils down to console warring in those threads. For every good an earnest post there are a dozen or more the mods should probably have deleted lol.
 

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
Why should a PC company stop releasing games in their own platform? It should have been standard since Xbox inception, I hated when Halo and Gears sequels were console only and barely bothered to play them at all when I had the 360.
Xbox is not a PC company, except for the Microsoft store that nobody uses. They put their games on Steam and get the same 70% revenue, same as every other third-party publisher and game developer.
 
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Dane

Member
Xbox is not a PC company, except for the Microsoft store that nobody uses. They put their games on Steam and get the same 30% cut as every other third-party publisher and game developer.
Xbox is owned by Microsoft, anyone knows the dots, it should have been standard for a long time.
 

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
Xbox is owned by Microsoft, anyone knows the dots, it should have been standard for a long time.
Yes, Xbox is owned by Microsoft. But my point is that they put their games on Steam which gets the 30% revenue cut. This undercuts the value of Xbox the console, where they can earn 100% of 1P game revenue and 30% of 3P game revenue.

If an Xbox console user moves to PC because all Xbox games are available on PC, then Xbox only earns 70% on 1P revenue, and 0% of 3P revenue.
 
Sega leaving the hardware market was a kick in the gut for me. I was 16 in 1999 when the Dreamcast came out and I had saved up to buy the console. It was the most fun I ever had but it was short lived since they dropped support within 2 years if memory serves. But I'm glad they stayed the course software wise.

It surprised the hell out of me too, at the time. Weird thing is at the time, I knew of Genesis (I had one) and Dreamcast, but only "knew" of the Saturn through magazines. Never actually played one at the time except at a Funcoland kiosk, and they had Congo of all games on it. I think the PS1 had Tomb Raider and N64 has Mischief Makers. Kind of easy to see why many people picked those two systems over Saturn that era if shops were demoing known bad games for it.

I think that is fair but in my experience here for two years there are too many "smartest guy in the room" types with galaxy brained takes and then you have fanboys that couldn't give a genuine take if you paid them. It always boils down to console warring in those threads. For every good an earnest post there are a dozen or more the mods should probably have deleted lol.

Well, I can't speak for those people but I at least personally feel, or hope, I'm not giving takes for disingenuous reasons. I do put a lot of thought behind a lot of stuff I say, especially when it comes to analyzing consoles and decisions of platform holders. But it's out of genuine interest and, hopefully, to add another perspective to wider discussion. And I have no desire for, say, MS to exit the market as a platform holder.

I DO think they would be better off not operating Xbox like a traditional console going forward, and just being more of an upfront 3P publisher, but that's not me saying they should stop making Xbox hardware. Kind of the opposite actually; they could do more with Xbox hardware (IMO) if the business model were more PC-like. Different model types, regular hardware refreshes, not eating production costs nearly as much, selling the hardware for a profit, and still bring the Xbox console-like UI and ease-of-use but also able to use regular Windows.

If MS HAVE to adjust things on the hardware side, I'd much rather them that approach than stop making Xbox hardware altogether.
 

Dane

Member
Yes, Xbox is owned by Microsoft. But my point is that they put their games on Steam which gets the 30% revenue cut. This undercuts the value of Xbox the console, where they can earn 100% of 1P game revenue and 30% of 3P game revenue.

If an Xbox console user moves to PC because all Xbox games are available on PC, then Xbox only earns 70% on 1P revenue, and 0% of 3P revenue.
Its like saying Sony is wrong for releasing games on Steam and EGS rather than solely through their own PC storefront, Microsoft wants money and they know people are willing to buy on Steam rather than barely selling anything at their constantly complained storefront. And trying to force a PC player to buy a console when it will fall flat 90% of the times means that they wouldn't earn a buck at all than getting 70% of 1P sales on Steam.
 
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Roberts

Member
Stay the course. Whatever they are doing, it works for me and my needs in gaming. I love their games (my GOTYs in the last three years have all been MS games), I like their console the most.

I will say I miss that period from 2017 til 2021 when we got some cool xbox news every week. Either a BC drop, a fps boost update and other goodies. I hope that when that ABK thing ends (whatever the outcome), they can be more transparent again.
 

Ozriel

M$FT
So why is services revenue down quarter over quarter? If Game Pass is working as you said it should, then sales revenue being down would be expected, but services revenue should be UP. Instead that also saw a decline, and MS is expecting further double-digit declines in all the gaming areas (including, again, services) for FY 2022 Q3.


Microsoft doesn’t break out ‘services revenue’. They report ‘content and services’. And Xbox ‘content and services’ revenue declined Y-o -Y mainly due to a sparse Q4 release schedule In 2022 compared to Q4 2021 when Halo Infinite and Forza Horizon 5 were released.

In that same earnings report, MS disclosed that this drop was partly offset by growth in Gamepass subscribers.

You do seem to have a knack for either pushing misinformation or speaking confidently about topics you’re not really familiar with.

The model isn't working as intended, this should be clear by now. And while they have some good sales on Steam, it's not for all their games. Just very specific ones, like Sea of Thieves. Halo Infinite's doing nothing on Steam sales-wise.

Lots of other example. Games like the Forza Horizon series, Ori, Grounded and even recently HiFi Rush, for example. Upcoming fare like Starfield is already high up on Steam wishlists.
 

RickMasters

Member
There is no magic to the console business. They need to do what they should have been doing all along. Get their studios in order and start releasing games consistently. Make marketing deals when it makes sense. Let Game Pass evolve naturally and stop saying stupid shit like "play everywhere." That sends the wrong message when you are trying to build a strong console following. Game Pass is a fantastic service to go along with Xbox but it should have never been the focus this early.
Agree with this 100%. All they needed to do was play the 'console business' game like nintendo and sony so to speak. let their studios do their thing, provide what they need to get it done on time. They would have a lot more exclusive content right now. I feel like they try to do everything except the core things make a console business successful over a long time. I went from the dreamcast to the xbox, and have bought every xbox console since. But Ill be honest and say they dropped the ball way back in the second half of the x360 lifecycle.


They got lazy, and In some cases completely misread the mass of X360 owners and what made that console a success in the first half of its lifespan. We went from a year like 2007 where we had halo 3, forza 2, crackdown, and PGR 4 they had COD 4 exclusive beta and marketing, and marketing for bioshock. They were a powerhouse that year. A soon as kinect, the wii and casual became a focus for them it was a wrap. And its weird they they havent simply just gone back to that 2007 style of thinking. great exclusives and choosing the right games to exclusive marketing deals with. they have done all these other things except the thing thats important. put their games, their devs and their system first.


I dont blame people for trolling phil and making a mockery of his double speak with "oh we love sony, we just want games everywhere, apple and google are the real competitors"...nintendo and sony were not playing along because tat the end of the day they are competing. Sony dont even need marketing when the head of xbox pats them on the ass and back everytime they put out yet another GOTY contender, instead of motivating his own teams to shoot for the stars..... its just...."our competitors are awesome.....have more halo, forza, gears"...and its utterly insane that after all these acquisitions we are still having this conversation about xbox. There messaging has been bad. It hasnt been that of a company that competes. if he and xbox are so passionate about games as they say, whey are they NOT doing more with all that they have now. Im giving bethesda, obsidian, T10, and PG a pass here but whats going on with studios like the initiative? how did 343i fuck up the crown jewel of arena shooters so bad? I was excited when I heard the coalition was working on a new ip....now they are just gonna play it safe make yet another gears? jeez are they not as bored as we are of gears at this point?


look at the studios they should have acquired when they had the chance:
Bioware
remedy
Io
Eidos

Collectively better than what they want to pay for COD, and there wouldnt have been none of this nonsense with the like of the CMA. And they all would bring a lot more to than the table than just one IP that happens to be the biggest FPS out there.

All they had to do to keep bungie was let them make the damn game they wanted to make. destiny might have been the next big thing after halo and a core driver for GP. I also think putting halo on PC was a bad move, from the perspective of selling the console..some games should have been off the table for PC ports. thats just my opinion if exclusives are a strength for selling consoles. sony seem to get that. and this keeps desire for their product high. MS seem to have worked hard to remove the desire for their product...phil spencer over there trying to down play the importance of exclusives, when he damn well knows his platform needs them too. its this double speak thats put them in these PR situations. better to just say less and listen and observe the success of your competitors and mimic that, by doing what works...simply put out great exclusives and stop draining the creative life out of your devs. let em make what they want, they are the ones with the cool game ideas. stop looking at what was your last big hit and trying to milk it dead.
 

Jimmy_liv

Member
Doesn't matter what they do. Software sells systems and that's where there issue is.
You can operate a thousand different strategies but without the games they will stall.

Look at the many zany crackpot strategies Nintendo has and yet they are selling bucket loads of underpowered consoles..... Why? Because they have premium software you can't get anywhere else.

MS need to get top quality 1p software out. The end.
 

Loxus

Member
I think they should double down on GamePass and XCloud. Make it a play on any device kind of thing and be dominant on the cloud gaming sector.

Nintendo basically has mobile console gaming down pack and Sony is going down the immersion path with console VR.

Microsoft needs to be dominant in something before Nintendo and Sony and that is GamePass everywhere via XCloud.

Make a two tier system with the higher tier for day one releases.

Forget COD and invest that 70 billion into games. Like someone said in the Microsoft/Activision thread, 70 billion gets you 100+ AAA games.

One AAA game a month, Xbox with GamePass and XCloud becomes very appealing within 10 years.
 
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MS and Xbox will be fine and had massive success last year/2 years and some goodies already this year -
  • e.g. Forza Horizon 5/Hot Wheels
  • Sea of Thieves
  • Tunic
  • Cuphead DLC
  • Pentiment
  • Two Point Series
  • Grounded
  • Avengers/GotG on GP
  • Hi Fi Rush
  • High On Life
  • MS Flight
  • Psychonauts 2
  • Vampire Survivors
  • Age of Empires 4
  • Halo MCC updates and current state
friggin snoresville, man

to be fair, the ps5 isnt really exciting either.
 
With a year of disappointment behind Xbox, and an uncertain 2023 ahead (where is Hellblade? Fable? Avowed?) Microsoft's plan doesn't appear to be working very well. Yes, they've had a reputational comeback and, yes, Gamepass remains a tremendous deal.

But growth is stagnating, hardware isn't moving fast enough to grow console Gamepass subscribers, and the first party offerings needed to pump up numbers haven't delivered momentum.

I may be catastrophizing, but assuming the Activision deal fails (fair at this point), what is Microsoft's next major move? Seems they either really DO have a pipeline of great games coming in a timely manner, or they need to reorient away from Day 1 drops, OR....

There's a decent case to be made that Gamepass ought to be a subscription on other platforms.
Only reason MS didn't sell Xbox when Satya was trying to sell it off is because Phil's proposed Gamepass pitch aligned with MS' future. Without gamepass MS is stuck playing Sega in the mid 90s again and they have 0 interest in that. The future is subscription services if Xbox can't get there than Xbox is done being funded.
 
I think they should double down on GamePass and XCloud. Make it a play on any device kind of thing and be dominant on the cloud gaming sector.

Nintendo basically has mobile console gaming down pack and Sony is going down the immersion path with console VR.

Microsoft needs to be dominant in something before Nintendo and Sony and that is GamePass everywhere via XCloud.

Make a two tier system with the higher tier for day one releases.

Forget COD and invest that 70 billion into games. Like someone said in the Microsoft/Activision thread, 70 billion gets you 100+ AAA games.

One AAA game a month, Xbox with GamePass and XCloud becomes very appealing within 10 years.

How are they going to afford to make a AAA at the rate of releasing one every month? Also for Game Pass & xCloud to pay off, actual customers have to want it first.

In theory a AAA game a month could drive interest, but at the scale of the mass-market marquee AAA games, that's at least $150 million per game. That's almost $2 billion a year in just software development, doesn't even account for marketing.

Say Game Pass Day 1 reduces 1P game sales by 50%, and 3P game sales by 30%, on average. Now, I think software sales last fiscal year were probably around 70% of Xbox's division revenue; last fiscal year they made a little over $16 billion in gaming revenue. On average, 1P sales probably account for like 10% of that in Xbox's case (for comparison Sony's peak year for 1P sale revenue as a percentage of total game sales revenue was 18.5%, the rest were 3P sales).

So out of $11.2 billion, 1P games would be $1.12 billion and 3P games would be $10.08 billion. Game Pass would have to bring in $4.144 billion annually to cover the loss in direct sales revenue. And that's on top of whatever revenue it brings in right now, which we'll say it something like $1.8 billion a year. So altogether it'd have to bring in $5.944 billion annually. At an ARPU of ~ $72 per sub averaged (that's the amount Game Pass would be bringing in if revenue were $1.8 billion/year off 25 million subs), they'd need 82.5 million subscribers to Game Pass to make it work.

How are they going to grow more than 3x the subs they have right now in a reasonable amount of time while operating the service as it currently does (including the pricing deals and loopholes plus pricing differences in various markets that the loopholes let people take advantage of)? They'd need an explosion of sub growth in like half the time it took them to reach 25 million, but I don't think the upcoming slate would help push them to 82.55 million subscribers in the next 3-5 years.

Maybe getting ABK and COD would help do the trick, that is possible. But it'd require a miracle for Microsoft with the current acquisition proceedings, for things to go that much in their favor. So it's either that, or hope they strike gold with a few of their big releases in the next few years and start closing up the loopholes while maybe introducing a new tier or two, and slightly increasing the subscription price.

But I think most of that growth is going to depend a lot of Xbox hardware, and they have to fix the decline that's currently happening in their global sales volume.

Microsoft doesn’t break out ‘services revenue’. They report ‘content and services’. And Xbox ‘content and services’ revenue declined Y-o -Y mainly due to a sparse Q4 release schedule In 2022 compared to Q4 2021 when Halo Infinite and Forza Horizon 5 were released.

Right, but the leaked services revenue from the CADE court documents listed $2.9 billion for, IIRC, calendar year 2021. So we would know at least some portion of that was recorded in FY 2020 results, and the other portion in FY 2021 results.

The thing about those CADE figures though is that they accounted for all gaming services, not just Game Pass. And I really don't think "just" having a lack of calendar Q4 1P releases is why Xbox saw drops in all gaming categories the past fiscal quarter; it's the holidays, SOMETHING should have seen an increase. Game Pass services or hardware, should have seen an increase.

Instead they both saw drops alongside software revenue.

In that same earnings report, MS disclosed that this drop was partly offset by growth in Gamepass subscribers.

On PC. Where Game Pass has been almost a non-starter, for a myriad of reasons. On console side it had "stalled", going by some of Phil Spencer's own words.

You do seem to have a knack for either pushing misinformation or speaking confidently about topics you’re not really familiar with.

I've been more or less following the back-and-forth over the acquisition events as long as you and most here have, and anything I haven't had the most insight on, I've either asked for clarification or learned from others. I've even outright admitted there are things I don't really know about all to well, because I'm not a professional lawyer.

But I don't need someone to tell me I'm reading fiscal results wrong when the results are showing clear drops. And I can use some contextual logic to see what factors about the gaming division are likely attributing to those losses.

Lots of other example. Games like the Forza Horizon series, Ori, Grounded and even recently HiFi Rush, for example. Upcoming fare like Starfield is already high up on Steam wishlists.

Are you really bringing up HiFi Rush? The same HiFi Rush that did not chart in NPD at all for January? WOM was spreading relatively quickly, but that seems to have done more for it on Steam than Xbox. Thing is, the sales on Steam should have contributed towards NPD; they did it's just that they weren't enough for the game to chart. Games like Grounded IIRC aren't full-price on Steam, and they have regular sales. At least, I know from Sea of Thieve's history, where it would get a spike in sales whenever they lowered the price for while.

So sales could look decent in bursts, but the revenue is being affected by the price cuts in order to spur on sales. And honestly I don't think the buying audience for games on Steam is particularly massive, compared to console; they have 130 million registered users but you don't need to pay for a Steam account and there are a lot of super-cheap games there, outright free games and F2P games too. When you look at the top concurrent player charts they are dominated by F2P-style games, and I barely ever see a Microsoft game in the Top 25 (granted similar can be said of Sony games but most of theirs are single-player games that don't have online components the way a Halo Infinite or FH5 does. And at least Sony gives sales numbers; Microsoft doesn't).
 
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Loxus

Member
How are they going to afford to make a AAA at the rate of releasing one every month? Also for Game Pass & xCloud to pay off, actual customers have to want it first.

In theory a AAA game a month could drive interest, but at the scale of the mass-market marquee AAA games, that's at least $150 million per game. That's almost $2 billion a year in just software development, doesn't even account for marketing.

Say Game Pass Day 1 reduces 1P game sales by 50%, and 3P game sales by 30%, on average. Now, I think software sales last fiscal year were probably around 70% of Xbox's division revenue; last fiscal year they made a little over $16 billion in gaming revenue. On average, 1P sales probably account for like 10% of that in Xbox's case (for comparison Sony's peak year for 1P sale revenue as a percentage of total game sales revenue was 18.5%, the rest were 3P sales).

So out of $11.2 billion, 1P games would be $1.12 billion and 3P games would be $10.08 billion. Game Pass would have to bring in $4.144 billion annually to cover the loss in direct sales revenue. And that's on top of whatever revenue it brings in right now, which we'll say it something like $1.8 billion a year. So altogether it'd have to bring in $5.944 billion annually. At an ARPU of ~ $72 per sub averaged (that's the amount Game Pass would be bringing in if revenue were $1.8 billion/year off 25 million subs), they'd need 82.5 million subscribers to Game Pass to make it work.

How are they going to grow more than 3x the subs they have right now in a reasonable amount of time while operating the service as it currently does (including the pricing deals and loopholes plus pricing differences in various markets that the loopholes let people take advantage of)? They'd need an explosion of sub growth in like half the time it took them to reach 25 million, but I don't think the upcoming slate would help push them to 82.55 million subscribers in the next 3-5 years.

Maybe getting ABK and COD would help do the trick, that is possible. But it'd require a miracle for Microsoft with the current acquisition proceedings, for things to go that much in their favor. So it's either that, or hope they strike gold with a few of their big releases in the next few years and start closing up the loopholes while maybe introducing a new tier or two, and slightly increasing the subscription price.

But I think most of that growth is going to depend a lot of Xbox hardware, and they have to fix the decline that's currently happening in their global sales volume.
I never said they'd be releasing one AAA game a month starting now, I said within 10 years.

They have the studios to invest that 70 billion on AAA games (those studios would have like 3-4 teams), so within 10 years they'd be releasing 1 AAA game a month.

That's a much better way to spend 70 billion that just spending it all just to have COD exclusive.

We have to remember COD isn't the reason Playstation is the dominant platform.

Unless COD do something amazing, in the end Sony is just going to win back market share with their exclusives.
 

twilo99

Member
xbox is doing the right thing, trying to expand their business and add value for their xbox customers and the PC market at large.

Governments are oppsed to all of that for whatever reason...
 

RickMasters

Member
friggin snoresville, man

to be fair, the ps5 isnt really exciting either.
How are they going to afford to make a AAA at the rate of releasing one every month? Also for Game Pass & xCloud to pay off, actual customers have to want it first.

In theory a AAA game a month could drive interest, but at the scale of the mass-market marquee AAA games, that's at least $150 million per game. That's almost $2 billion a year in just software development, doesn't even account for marketing.

Say Game Pass Day 1 reduces 1P game sales by 50%, and 3P game sales by 30%, on average. Now, I think software sales last fiscal year were probably around 70% of Xbox's division revenue; last fiscal year they made a little over $16 billion in gaming revenue. On average, 1P sales probably account for like 10% of that in Xbox's case (for comparison Sony's peak year for 1P sale revenue as a percentage of total game sales revenue was 18.5%, the rest were 3P sales).

So out of $11.2 billion, 1P games would be $1.12 billion and 3P games would be $10.08 billion. Game Pass would have to bring in $4.144 billion annually to cover the loss in direct sales revenue. And that's on top of whatever revenue it brings in right now, which we'll say it something like $1.8 billion a year. So altogether it'd have to bring in $5.944 billion annually. At an ARPU of ~ $72 per sub averaged (that's the amount Game Pass would be bringing in if revenue were $1.8 billion/year off 25 million subs), they'd need 82.5 million subscribers to Game Pass to make it work.

How are they going to grow more than 3x the subs they have right now in a reasonable amount of time while operating the service as it currently does (including the pricing deals and loopholes plus pricing differences in various markets that the loopholes let people take advantage of)? They'd need an explosion of sub growth in like half the time it took them to reach 25 million, but I don't think the upcoming slate would help push them to 82.55 million subscribers in the next 3-5 years.

Maybe getting ABK and COD would help do the trick, that is possible. But it'd require a miracle for Microsoft with the current acquisition proceedings, for things to go that much in their favor. So it's either that, or hope they strike gold with a few of their big releases in the next few years and start closing up the loopholes while maybe introducing a new tier or two, and slightly increasing the subscription price.

But I think most of that growth is going to depend a lot of Xbox hardware, and they have to fix the decline that's currently happening in their global sales volume.
I agree that monthly AAA exclusives on GP is not a sustainable idea. these games take a long time to make, and even with all the studios they have that wouldnt be possible. even if in some bizzare world where they owned all the publishers that would not be possible. these things take time. I think it would help if they kept GP focused on xbox on PC, with xloud being the phone/mobile/built into TVs side of things. should just be positioned as an extention of owning an xbox, not an alternative. and this is what I mean about them removing the desire for their console. it wasnt smart messaging



Instead I think, 4- 5 AAA exclusives over the course of the year..padded out by AA and smaller passion projects is the sweet spot. as long as the quality is there I dont think they all need to be AAA. I would like to see more shadow drops of hifi rush and things like pentinent, high on life, grounded...along side the tunics and mooncrests ( acurrent face of mine) of the world. quality in small packages along side the big hitter games like starfields, and forza, and gears etc. there needs to be quality and consistency and a stable pipeline of well curated smaller interesting titles (and not just every random pixel art game out there) they can money hat to make the waits for those big games a little easier for their customers.
 

RickMasters

Member
friggin snoresville, man

to be fair, the ps5 isnt really exciting either.
Some of them aint bad to be fair.....Just not earth shattering. But tunic is special. its inspired by old school NES zelda in all the right ways, and the world, art style and music were beautifully crafted. That game and the devs behind it deserve their flowers.
 
I never said they'd be releasing one AAA game a month starting now, I said within 10 years.

They have the studios to invest that 70 billion on AAA games (those studios would have like 3-4 teams), so within 10 years they'd be releasing 1 AAA game a month.

That's a much better way to spend 70 billion that just spending it all just to have COD exclusive.

We have to remember COD isn't the reason Playstation is the dominant platform.

Unless COD do something amazing, in the end Sony is just going to win back market share with their exclusives.

Okay I get what you're saying now, must've missed an earlier response. Investing the $69 billion towards their current teams for say a 10-year plan, would it have been worth it more than trying to buy ABK? Yeah, I agree with that.

There are two issues though, and neither of these are justification for buying publishers; I'm just identifying what the issues are. One is that Microsoft don't seem to have the patience to fund and develop that amount of content internally to see possible results a few years from now. The second is their upper management with the Xbox division; they've had problems managing what content they've been able to get out the door the past 5 or so years, more or less. Would that management really be up to the task of seeing multiple AAA games being developed simultaneously, keeping them on budget and on target for release date? Giving them the marketing and promotion they deserve? The distribution they need?

Those two things would have to change IMO for the idea you suggest to really work. MS don't want to wait much longer for big results, and they don't want to seriously shake up upper management at Xbox (seems like), so the two biggest roadblocks would be in place anyway. Since they don't want to change their stance on those options, they're trying to grab big publishers who already have a successful pipeline at developing, marketing & releasing multiple big AAA games, and slap the Xbox brand name on it and claim the revenue.

Yes, Xbox is owned by Microsoft. But my point is that they put their games on Steam which gets the 30% revenue cut. This undercuts the value of Xbox the console, where they can earn 100% of 1P game revenue and 30% of 3P game revenue.

If an Xbox console user moves to PC because all Xbox games are available on PC, then Xbox only earns 70% on 1P revenue, and 0% of 3P revenue.

This here is why I want Sony to be very careful about how they handle porting to PC. Ideally the marquee single-player AAA games could be kept to console, just look at how well GOW Ragnarok's selling, or TLOU Part 1 now that the show is playing. Spiderman 2 is going to do gangbusters. Would it be in running to outdo Ragnarok's sales rate if it were a Day 1 on PC as well? Kinda don't think so.

But Sony's PC strategy seems to be making sense; the newer single-player games, particularly the marquee ones, they're still a few years out between coming to PS and then coming to PC; there's a chance some don't get ported to PC at all. TLOU Part 1 Remake is a 6-month port but it's also a remake of a 10-year old game, so that seems like a fair strategy. A lot of the live-service GaaS titles will probably either have similar porting windows or be Day 1 between both platforms; it makes sense for games like that, though there will be some exceptions most likely.

It's what Microsoft should have done back in 2015; test it out and take a measured approach. Should've taken a more measured approach with Game Pass as well but, I think there's still time to make adjustments as needed there. Very hard to go back on Day 1 PC for all 1P games. I mean maybe Sony considers that at a future point too, but I don't think they'll do it unless it's with a storefront they 100% own, and can monetize through subscriptions & ad-based sponsorship some way. It's probably still many, many years away.
 

Ozriel

M$FT
Right, but the leaked services revenue from the CADE court documents listed $2.9 billion for, IIRC, calendar year 2021. So we would know at least some portion of that was recorded in FY 2020 results, and the other portion in FY 2021 results.

The thing about those CADE figures though is that they accounted for all gaming services, not just Game Pass. And I really don't think "just" having a lack of calendar Q4 1P releases is why Xbox saw drops in all gaming categories the past fiscal quarter; it's the holidays, SOMETHING should have seen an increase. Game Pass services or hardware, should have seen an increase.

Instead they both saw drops alongside software revenue.

A Year on Year comparison would be comparing holiday sales in 2021 vs Holiday sales in 2022. Your “it’s the holidays” comment makes absolutely no sense since both sides of the equation include holiday sales.


On PC. Where Game Pass has been almost a non-starter, for a myriad of reasons. On console side it had "stalled", going by some of Phil Spencer's own words.

Again, this is misinformation. Phil Spencer says growth on console is slowing down. Never ‘stalled’, which means something completely different.
Not sure why you’re trying to push a distinction between PC and console Gamepass. It’s irrelevant in this context.

But I don't need someone to tell me I'm reading fiscal results wrong when the results are showing clear drops. And I can use some contextual logic to see what factors about the gaming division are likely attributing to those losses.

Well, it's obvious that 'logic' isn't working since you claimed GamePass revenue dropped...and yet Microsoft's earnings call makes it clear that Gamepass subscriber growth brought an increase in revenue

Are you really bringing up HiFi Rush? The same HiFi Rush that did not chart in NPD at all for January? WOM was spreading relatively quickly, but that seems to have done more for it on Steam than Xbox.

Well yes, we were having a conversation about Xbox games still selling well on Steam.

And honestly I don't think the buying audience for games on Steam is particularly massive, compared to console; they have 130 million registered users but you don't need to pay for a Steam account and there are a lot of super-cheap games there, outright free games and F2P games too. When you look at the top concurrent player charts they are dominated by F2P-style games, and I barely ever see a Microsoft game in the Top 25 (granted similar can be said of Sony games but most of theirs are single-player games that don't have online components the way a Halo Infinite or FH5 does. And at least Sony gives sales numbers; Microsoft doesn't).

Using concurrent as a metric for success on Steam is weird. Sea of Thieves sold over 5 million copies by December 2021 - a very successful outing, by all metrics. Concurrent aren't anywhere near top 25. Ditto for the Forza Horizon series that have sold millions of units on Steam and usually won't be found challenging the F2P monsters for CCUs. For one platform, that's quite significant.
 

ACESHIGH

Banned
Good things take time, no one was this concerned when The Last Guardian or GT5 took eons to get to market. Plenty of exciting projects in their pipeline. We haven't seen much regarding Wolverine/Spiderman 2 or the next 3D Mario ARE SONY AND NINTENDO DOOMED? (Generic youtuber face for the thumbnail)

That being said: They should have canned Bonnie Ross a long time ago. Halo was a disaster if we take into account how expensive it was. The game was good but I can't believe it cost that much money. Some ENRON style creative accounting right there. Also, The Coalition should work on something else that Gears, the franchise is slowly losing its mojo.
 
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xbox is doing the right thing, trying to expand their business and add value for their xbox customers and the PC market at large.

Governments are oppsed to all of that for whatever reason...

Here's a clue, I'm trying not to get political here -

The funny part to the FTC/Khan at the helm of these Big Tech cases/rulings/overturned decisions is - the last two Republican FTC commissioners have both quit (perhaps forced out, Noah Philips was second last to go and Caroline Wilson is the one from yesterday being the last to go). Noah and Philips were the vocal opposers to the Meta/Within deal that was overturned in court after the FTC self-ruling. There are many exposing Khan's immoral and undue process behind creating a self-ruling entity with the FTC, something those in the anti-trust industry are calling FCC-ification of the FTC. Khan even went as far as redacting these two FTC commissioners input on the Meta/Within review to not expose the dissent from within the FTC.

With Wilson leaving there is NO bipartisan process within the FTC anymore, it's 100% Democrat, another words IMO totally fucked when MS take them to court after a bullshit FTC self-ruling. What Khan is trying to do is create an echo-chamber without any resistance, perhaps this changes based on laws around how many from one party, as new commissioner hiring occurs. However, it's painted a very clear picture of the usual "woke" politics doing whatever it takes to get their will executed on everyone else, completely authoritarian shit. It's not what I consider due process at all. Fuck Khan.

Republican FTC commissioner will resign, slams Democratic chair

The sole remaining Republican on the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) said Tuesday she is resigning based on disagreements with how Democratic Chairwoman Lina Khan is leading the agency. Commissioner Christine Wilson announced her plans in an op-ed published in The Wall Street Journal.

IMO Khan is cleaning house so no one opposes her FTC rulings and sidestepping due process. Philips and Wilson claim exactly that with multiple Big Tech cases Khan/FTC have brought in recent times.


This former FTC commissioner gets it, good Twitter thread by him -

 
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Yes, Xbox is owned by Microsoft. But my point is that they put their games on Steam which gets the 30% revenue cut. This undercuts the value of Xbox the console, where they can earn 100% of 1P game revenue and 30% of 3P game revenue.

If an Xbox console user moves to PC because all Xbox games are available on PC, then Xbox only earns 70% on 1P revenue, and 0% of 3P revenue.

I seriously doubt MS/Xbox pay 30% to Steam. An NDA would probably have them sharing far less, I'd hazard a guess at around 12-20%. We've seen such deals exposed a number of times. Economies of scale and all that.
 
A Year on Year comparison would be comparing holiday sales in 2021 vs Holiday sales in 2022. Your “it’s the holidays” comment makes absolutely no sense since both sides of the equation include holiday sales.




Again, this is misinformation. Phil Spencer says growth on console is slowing down. Never ‘stalled’, which means something completely different.
Not sure why you’re trying to push a distinction between PC and console Gamepass. It’s irrelevant in this context.



Well, it's obvious that 'logic' isn't working since you claimed GamePass revenue dropped...and yet Microsoft's earnings call makes it clear that Gamepass subscriber growth brought an increase in revenue



Well yes, we were having a conversation about Xbox games still selling well on Steam.



Using concurrent as a metric for success on Steam is weird. Sea of Thieves sold over 5 million copies by December 2021 - a very successful outing, by all metrics. Concurrent aren't anywhere near top 25. Ditto for the Forza Horizon series that have sold millions of units on Steam and usually won't be found challenging the F2P monsters for CCUs. For one platform, that's quite significant.
Damage control team
 

lefty1117

Gold Member
It's always come down to the games. This was my criticism of Phil last year. He has made some acquisitions and is trying to make others and they have not borne fruit yet. We'll see how Starfield impacts things. But clearly he knows lack of compelling games is the problem or he wouldn't be spending $70 billion to acquire them. As for Gamepass, it's an incredible value but day 1 releases of brand new titles probably isn't the best move. Maybe do a 90 or 120 day period before adding them.
 
This year is the year MS really, really has to deliver. If they do, they'll be fine.

I know MS doesn't care about consoles, they want cloud services and and gamepass on everything. MS is playing a game Sony can't afford, and refgardless what people think of the current landscape, MS will get what they want in the end.
 

TheDreadLord

Gold Member
As it is now, I’d say they should stop producing consoles and just focus on GP and XCloud. If they really want to be a player in the home game market then they should rethink their strategy with GP and home console, perhaps doing something similar to what Sony is doing.
 
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