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Welcome to the end of American civilization: $4 a gallon gas on the way.
- Thread starter Tommie Hu$tle
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Tsk tsk Darien. I know you're aiming this at me, and I don't think I've ever said this will be happening TOMORROW. Give it 10 years, tho!DarienA said:
Seriously, it's not JUST peak oil production that will factor into whatever happens. You've also got:
-The socio-political instability of the region with the most oil.
-China and India's increasing demand.
-US reluctance to look at other alternatives seriously(needed to be done about ten years ago, this is something all of the Republicans can blame Clinton for but shouldn't because they would have done worse in his place).
-And toss in natural disasters like we just witnessed.
Gas riots by 2007. More wars by 2010. Charred hellscape Mad Max syndrome by 2015.
seriously.. if it takes 5-6 katrina's happening all at once, not to be crass, but bring em on. I hate the fact that my ONLY option for transportation to work is either $20/week in gas, bussing it which will still cost $15 in fare and consume at least 3 hours a day in travel time, or huffing it to work at which point I will have to convince them to install showers so no one has to deal with me the rest of the day, oh, and which will still consumer at least two hours a day in travel time.
In a perfect world, my wife and I would own one car, and it would only be used for trips outside the metro area. Milwaukee at least is NOWHERE near this reality.
In a perfect world, my wife and I would own one car, and it would only be used for trips outside the metro area. Milwaukee at least is NOWHERE near this reality.
Raoul Duke said:
:lol I don't think it's going to be that bad. There are a lot of firms/scientists/etc looking into alternatives, it's just a question of if something can be viably produced. Personally I still think the best shot is a way of converting all the shale oil into crude oil. I've read that there's something like 4 BILLION barrels worth of it...in UTAH alone. I mean damn. Last I'd heard they'd found a way to convert it using high voltage electricity, but currently it takes more energy to convert it then they get.
Also people, hybrid cars are not the answer. I've read reports that the average hybrid car uses about 7-10 thousand barrels of oil in energy to produce. That would actually put us in the hole faster.
dammitmattt
Banned
chaostrophy said:
Don't forget the unions. They are killing American automakers.
Instigator
Banned
I rode trains in other countries and I really like it. It's cheap, fast, quiet and with so much more room than on a plane on coach. Plus, you get to see lots of scenery.
I'm not sure why this method of transportation is not more popular in NA.
I'm not sure why this method of transportation is not more popular in NA.
because while other countries were focusing on mass transit in the 50's and 60's, america was focusing on automobile manufacturing which has always been one of our biggest industries.Instigator said:
as a government you don't start a movement towards mass transit when one of your biggest tax generators (sales tax, income tax, business tax, etc) is about making and selling personal transportation.
Because in America, we're individuals. And we individuals reserve the right to travel in a hideously inefficient, pollution spewing Land Raper SUV all by ourselves rather than ride on a train with other folks(some of whom might be *shudder* black) as an expression of that indivdualism.Instigator said:
Tommie Hu$tle
Member
Instigator said:
Lemurnator
Banned
Gluttony and Sloth are the American way.
Suck up the worlds oil at an alarming rate, and don't act when you know you're society is fueled on a limited resource that's on the fringe and needs to be divided between the rest of the world.
Instead of changing the infrastructure of car refueling and mass producing hydrogen powered vehicals which would cost trillions of dollers. Why not go to war for significantly less money for a short term solution by liberating a country and setting up trade agreements with the new governenment?
Someone somewhere with enough power is making too much money from this and until there is no more money to be made and nothing left to sell, nothing will change.
Suck up the worlds oil at an alarming rate, and don't act when you know you're society is fueled on a limited resource that's on the fringe and needs to be divided between the rest of the world.
Instead of changing the infrastructure of car refueling and mass producing hydrogen powered vehicals which would cost trillions of dollers. Why not go to war for significantly less money for a short term solution by liberating a country and setting up trade agreements with the new governenment?
Someone somewhere with enough power is making too much money from this and until there is no more money to be made and nothing left to sell, nothing will change.
Fragamemnon
Member
mmlemay said:
Bullshit. The federal government places any business at a disadvantage versus other industrialized nation because they have to pay walloping health insurance premiums instead of a state-run universal system like every other industrialized country in order to have decent , motivated employees.
The companies-and the government, to a lesser extent-themselves are to blame for the big pension liabilities-they underfunded the funds for decades, and now they are like OH NOES WE DON'T HAVE THE MONEYS!11. This is akin to a rich person who spent all their money showing off to friends and is now broke instead of doing proper planning with it. No sympathy, bed-made-lie.
Raoul Duke said:
chaostrophy said:
Nice summation, I likes...
Instigator said:
Hello? Have you missed all the posts where people talk about the fact that the US rail system is #1 a piece of shit and #2 not in many places where it would be feasible to use it for regular transportation? Top that off with Amtrack can barely stay afloat as it is...
Lemurnator said:
And let the idoicy begin....
There's no fucking way riding my bike, walking, or taking the piece of shit transportation system to work around where I live would be feasible. Public transportation around here is a laughing joke (what, I'm going to walk ten minutes to a bus stop so I can wait an hour for a bus to take me to the general location of where I work?) and it could take an hour or two to bike. Not everybody lives in a cut-and-dry suburb/big city location.
Btw, yesterday gas prices in Madison were 2.85 regular, 3.05 premium. My Prelude takes Premium. Shit.
Btw, yesterday gas prices in Madison were 2.85 regular, 3.05 premium. My Prelude takes Premium. Shit.
Lemurnator
Banned
If some country in South America all has cars that run on sugarcane than I refuse to believe that we can't come up with our own alternative.
And from the things that I've heard, we already have.
And from the things that I've heard, we already have.
East Clintwood
Banned
Please shut up, ok? Americans are the biggest wasters of naturals resources, they should start paying at least the same prices the rest of the world is.
Instigator
Banned
DarienA said:
Hello? Have you missed all the posts where people talk about the fact that the US rail system is #1 a piece of shit and #2 not in many places where it would be feasible to use it for regular transportation? Top that off with Amtrack can barely stay afloat as it is...
I don't care. I just like to bitch a bit.
A good train system would certainly be feasible in the North East and California, allowing for intercity and interstate travel. They have good population density. But would people use it? This reminds me of the largely underused LA subway system.
consider yourself lucky demon. I'm in the middle of michigan and premium is up to 3.20 here. i have a bike, luckily... and two legs. and i'm also lucky enough not to be driving anywhere.
and I notice how the people saying we should pay prices are also the people who have nothing at all to do with the problem. it's easy for these little rich cunts to run around saying everyone should pay more and it's our justice. no shit it's just... but justice isn't gonna save the economy, and i guarantee that if the economy starts to suffer, then there'll be bigger fish to fry than 3 bucks for a gallon of gas.
now here's the question of the hour: is this possibly the end for superpower America? I mean, is it possible we're witnessing the start of the end for our superpower status? Discuss.
and I notice how the people saying we should pay prices are also the people who have nothing at all to do with the problem. it's easy for these little rich cunts to run around saying everyone should pay more and it's our justice. no shit it's just... but justice isn't gonna save the economy, and i guarantee that if the economy starts to suffer, then there'll be bigger fish to fry than 3 bucks for a gallon of gas.
now here's the question of the hour: is this possibly the end for superpower America? I mean, is it possible we're witnessing the start of the end for our superpower status? Discuss.
Tommie Hu$tle
Member
East Clintwood said:
I would have never thought I would hear this from Clnit. Are we the biggest wasters of everything you bet your sweet little bottom we are. We lust for it and it make us happy.
East Clintwood said:
Considering each countries economy, salary scales, poverty scales, and a whole shitload of other factors run different the above statement makes no fuckin sense.
Surprise.
I know what you're trying to say... but you need to word it better.
Finally as I mention to THustle in another conversation... "to simply say that the US consumes the most world resources and leave it at the implies that this country puts nothing back in any shape form or fashion, be it resources, aid, whatever... is a bit disingenuous"
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
I've heard it has something to do with big car manufacturers lobying against that. Not sure if it's just one of conspiracy theories, though.Instigator said:
Instigator
Banned
Marconelly said:
I doubt it. I know public transport system are often ignored by the public in the US. They worship and depend on their cars too much.
chaostrophy
Member
mmlemay said:
So forcing a party who SIGNED A CONTRACT THEMSELVES to hold up their end of the bargain is "killing" now? Funny, last time I checked binding contracts were the core of a capitalist society.
MrAngryFace
Banned
Sometimes, while I read the accusations from other people in other countries about how much 'we' or 'I' waste in my sloth and persuit of wasting resources, I feel a sudden urge to make everything they say true.
To turn on everything in my house, start my car outside and leave it on, and let the water run all night long without jiggling the handle.
The fact of the matter is the world is wasteful in all things, whether its natural resources or intellectual resources. I mean we have the internet here, and we have how many people actually working to create threads with pictures of owls.
can you imagine how far the world would be if we all harnessed our wasted intellectual energies towards the progress of technology and the human condition?
If anything the lack of progress in fuel efficient automobiles falls squarely on everyone. If you wanna bitch about wasting resources and start pointing fingers maybe you should include ALL of it, because if some of the responses in this thread are any indication, intelligence is as limited and endangered a resource as oil.
To turn on everything in my house, start my car outside and leave it on, and let the water run all night long without jiggling the handle.
The fact of the matter is the world is wasteful in all things, whether its natural resources or intellectual resources. I mean we have the internet here, and we have how many people actually working to create threads with pictures of owls.
can you imagine how far the world would be if we all harnessed our wasted intellectual energies towards the progress of technology and the human condition?
If anything the lack of progress in fuel efficient automobiles falls squarely on everyone. If you wanna bitch about wasting resources and start pointing fingers maybe you should include ALL of it, because if some of the responses in this thread are any indication, intelligence is as limited and endangered a resource as oil.
Gas prices around the world
Think you pay a lot for gas? Perhaps you'd prefer to live in Venezuela.
NEW YORK (CNN/Money) – Gasoline prices in the United States, which have recently hit record highs, are actually much lower than in many countries. Drivers in some European cities, like Amsterdam and Oslo, are paying nearly 3 times more than those in the U.S.
The main factor in price disparities between countries is government policy, according to AirInc, a company that tracks the cost of living in various places around the world. Many European nations tax gasoline heavily, with taxes making up as much as 75 percent of the cost of a gallon of gasoline, said a spokesperson for AirInc.
In a few Latin America and Middle-East nations, such as Venezuela and Saudi Arabia, oil is produced by a government-owned company and local gasoline prices are kept low as a benefit to the nation's citizens, he said. All prices updated March, 2005.
Nation City Price in USD Regular/Gallon
Netherlands Amsterdam $6.48
Norway Oslo $6.27
Italy Milan $5.96
Denmark Copenhagen $5.93
Belgium Brussels $5.91
Sweden Stockholm $5.80
United Kingdom London $5.79
Germany Frankfurt $5.57
France Paris $5.54
Portugal Lisbon $5.35
Hungary Budapest $4.94
Luxembourg $4.82
Croatia Zagreb $4.81
Ireland Dublin $4.78
Switzerland Geneva $4.74
Spain Madrid $4.55
Japan Tokyo $4.24
Czech Republic Prague $4.19
Romania Bucharest $4.09
Andorra $4.08
Estonia Tallinn $3.62
Bulgaria Sofia $3.52
Brazil Brasilia $3.12
Cuba Havana $3.03
Taiwan Taipei $2.84
Lebanon Beirut $2.63
South Africa Johannesburg $2.62
Nicaragua Managua $2.61
Panama Panama City $2.19
Russia Moscow $2.10
Puerto Rico San Juan $1.74
Saudi Arabia Riyadh $0.91
Kuwait Kuwait City $0.78
Egypt Cairo $0.65
Nigeria Lagos $0.38
Venezuela Caracas $0.12
Source: air-inc.com
Think you pay a lot for gas? Perhaps you'd prefer to live in Venezuela.
NEW YORK (CNN/Money) – Gasoline prices in the United States, which have recently hit record highs, are actually much lower than in many countries. Drivers in some European cities, like Amsterdam and Oslo, are paying nearly 3 times more than those in the U.S.
The main factor in price disparities between countries is government policy, according to AirInc, a company that tracks the cost of living in various places around the world. Many European nations tax gasoline heavily, with taxes making up as much as 75 percent of the cost of a gallon of gasoline, said a spokesperson for AirInc.
In a few Latin America and Middle-East nations, such as Venezuela and Saudi Arabia, oil is produced by a government-owned company and local gasoline prices are kept low as a benefit to the nation's citizens, he said. All prices updated March, 2005.
Nation City Price in USD Regular/Gallon
Netherlands Amsterdam $6.48
Norway Oslo $6.27
Italy Milan $5.96
Denmark Copenhagen $5.93
Belgium Brussels $5.91
Sweden Stockholm $5.80
United Kingdom London $5.79
Germany Frankfurt $5.57
France Paris $5.54
Portugal Lisbon $5.35
Hungary Budapest $4.94
Luxembourg $4.82
Croatia Zagreb $4.81
Ireland Dublin $4.78
Switzerland Geneva $4.74
Spain Madrid $4.55
Japan Tokyo $4.24
Czech Republic Prague $4.19
Romania Bucharest $4.09
Andorra $4.08
Estonia Tallinn $3.62
Bulgaria Sofia $3.52
Brazil Brasilia $3.12
Cuba Havana $3.03
Taiwan Taipei $2.84
Lebanon Beirut $2.63
South Africa Johannesburg $2.62
Nicaragua Managua $2.61
Panama Panama City $2.19
Russia Moscow $2.10
Puerto Rico San Juan $1.74
Saudi Arabia Riyadh $0.91
Kuwait Kuwait City $0.78
Egypt Cairo $0.65
Nigeria Lagos $0.38
Venezuela Caracas $0.12
Source: air-inc.com
Instigator
Banned
xexex said:
All the more reason to wish for its destruction.
MrAngryFace
Banned
Again I would like to point how out fucking BIG america is in comparison with all these little countries paying 'more' for gas.
I dont give a flying fuck how much other countries pay for gas, I DONT LIVE IN OTHER COUNTRIES!
I dont give a flying fuck how much other countries pay for gas, I DONT LIVE IN OTHER COUNTRIES!
MrAngryFace said:
Amazing post. Seriously. *claps*
I've said this same thing many times in real life discussions (which I suppose this also is, hmmm). It seems to me that people used to *think* and expand their minds for fun (there was no TV, Intarweb, etc
). In general, we are a wasteful species, we like our fast food, don't wanna have to worry about where the power comes for the lights, the liquid we put in the cars to make them go, yadayadayada. I'm pretty sure the progress of technology would be light years ahead of where it is now if we were focussed, but LAWL, like that will *ever* happen. People are too greedy, evil, self absorbed (I'm guilty of this too :/). *sigh*
Great post MAF
MAF makes an excellent point.
Another thing I'd like to point out is that we have a lot of suburbs far from where people go to work in this country. It's not like the many cities in Europe where everyone is really close and can walk, or hop on a trolly. It's not like that here for most people. Not having a car and living out in a suburban area is typically not a good thing. Therefore we have no choice but to consume oil.
Now if you want to talk about the way a lot of us Americans use huge trucks and SUV's, I'm with you on that one. But that's only half the problem; the other half is that constantly using vehicles are more of a necessity here than they are in other countries.
Another thing I'd like to point out is that we have a lot of suburbs far from where people go to work in this country. It's not like the many cities in Europe where everyone is really close and can walk, or hop on a trolly. It's not like that here for most people. Not having a car and living out in a suburban area is typically not a good thing. Therefore we have no choice but to consume oil.
Now if you want to talk about the way a lot of us Americans use huge trucks and SUV's, I'm with you on that one. But that's only half the problem; the other half is that constantly using vehicles are more of a necessity here than they are in other countries.
You probably won't have the luxury of continuing to think that way your entire life.MrAngryFace said:
Think about it. Sure America is big, but do you NEED to drive cross country? Do you(not you specifically) NEED to have a job that is forty miles away from where you live?
I like to throw the charred Mad Max hellscape theory out there, but most likely what will end up happening is that America will split off into highly different regions(Southeast, Northeast, Midwest, PacNW) that rule themselves almost autonomously with different laws and value systems. The idea of "America" will become obsolete some time later this century.
SailorDaravon said:
That's the problem- oil represents millenia of stored solar energy, fortuitously condensed into a compact, easily usable format. Simply put, there is NOTHING that is as efficient, abundant and readily available. The first two laws of Thermodynamics enforce this.
truffleshuffle83
Banned
man it went from 2.43 yesterday to 3.09 today here in dayton. good thing i filled up yesterday
MrAngryFace
Banned
Its not ABOUT driving across country. Have you EVER lived in the southwest? Urban sprawl is insane there. It cant be avoided. I drove 70 miles a DAY for a year there just to take care of the daily NEEDs.
Yes yes, they have a bus system, but if you can base your life around the Phoenix bus system you fucking dont have anything going on.
Yes yes, they have a bus system, but if you can base your life around the Phoenix bus system you fucking dont have anything going on.
Instigator
Banned
Diablos said:
You move closer to where you work. Problem solved. If you really have to live 50 miles from where you work, something is wrong. There should be somewhere in between where you can move to. Might not be as nice, might not be where you grew up, but it's a compromize you make to be closer.
So what if they know what they're getting into and can afford it? That's not the point. For the vast majority of the people buying these large automobiles, it's still a "conscious waste of an increasingly precious resource," as Tedtropy said.SteveMeister said:
And yes, the use of these large vehicles is only half the problem, but it's also the half of the problem that could be solved pretty fucking easily. STOP BUYING BIGGER VEHICLES THAN YOU NEED.
something all of you anti-subruban people need to think about is this: in many areas (using mine as an example), do you really think there are hundreds or thousands of vacant dwellings in the core business areas? in the downtown area (where most of the jobs in the metro area AREN'T), living is at a huge premium, and there are huge waiting lists just to live there. In the suburbs (where most of the jobs are), in many cases JOBS are at a premium. I don't work 20+ miles away from my wife's work because I want to (nor does she). We work so far apart because those are the jobs that were available when we were looking. We have worked up to 30 miles apart from each other, because we had to.
There seems to be rampant talk in this thread that most americans work in the city at the job they chose there and live 40 miles out in the suburbs in the house/locaiton they chose. While this may be a number of Americans, the idiots from other countries in here don't realize that most of us are working at the job we were able to find and the house that we are able to find and afford. I would LOVE for my wife and I to be able to choose where we work and live. Find jobs not more than 10 minutes apart from each other and not more than 5 minutes from our home. Or in lieu of that I would LOVE a public transportation system that allowed us to only have one car for trips and stuff. Tell me when any of that happens so I can sign up. In the meantime we have to deal with our drives and our two cars, and I certainly feel that gives us a right to bitch when it's $50/week to get both of us to and from work.
There seems to be rampant talk in this thread that most americans work in the city at the job they chose there and live 40 miles out in the suburbs in the house/locaiton they chose. While this may be a number of Americans, the idiots from other countries in here don't realize that most of us are working at the job we were able to find and the house that we are able to find and afford. I would LOVE for my wife and I to be able to choose where we work and live. Find jobs not more than 10 minutes apart from each other and not more than 5 minutes from our home. Or in lieu of that I would LOVE a public transportation system that allowed us to only have one car for trips and stuff. Tell me when any of that happens so I can sign up. In the meantime we have to deal with our drives and our two cars, and I certainly feel that gives us a right to bitch when it's $50/week to get both of us to and from work.
MrAngryFace
Banned
Umm, living in the city is fucking expensive, and jobs dont pay that well for most of us.
Instigator
Banned
borghe said:
One thing NA lacks for the most part is the option to buy one particular appartment, not the whole block, not a condo, but something like a flat. And in the same building, you have different owners for the different flats. I understand the need to own your own home and how it is better in the long-term. You'd have the option to rent it to someone else or it could be where you live, closer to where you work. Might not be as nice as a house with a big front lawn and a pool, but it's yours and more space efficient.
chaostrophy
Member
WedgeX said:
Biodiesel is great, right now it's a better solution for fuel shortages than hydrogen for several reasons:
-It can be used in current-tech, proven reliable diesel engines with little to no modifications
-It can be distributed with our current infrastructure of tankers and gas stations
-It's a good use for America's currently unused agricultural capacity, may make farms less dependent on subsidies
Musashi Wins!
FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
whytemyke said:
Buddy we're there. We have the worst economy in the country and the highest unemployment besides. I'm in real estate and it's been slowing and probably about to crash. Of course, the bubble is probably coming for everywhere.
I love all the jealous young idiots from other countries and their pre-school sociological debates that start in every thread about the US. Your teenage socialism and angst besides, you don't know shit. You have nothing, you know nothing and your wisdom about the economy and world is just more tin plated bullshit. Get a job a family and a house and come back and tell me about your war against suburbia.
MrAngryFace
Banned
Musashi Wins!
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