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Vagrant Story |OT| Finest game in all of Valendia

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
SatelliteOfLove said:
It is not bad design

Wrong. Having to backtrack to get a weapon for the weakness needed is pure bullshit. "BUT YOU SHOULD HAVE BLUNT ALREADY." None of the enemies so far (besides the
Earth Goleum
) needed blunt so far. It's bad design to force the player to change tactics in a surprise move.

And now I'm about to face the
Fire Elemental
Thankfully, after having to play "posion, numb, and then beat the shit out of the healing human enemy that was pissing me off for 10 minutes," I've gotten the weakness magic buff for that to where it shouldn't hurt as much as the last boss did.

Edit: hahaha, oh how naive I am. Buff to resist and NOPE. Ass kicked and only doing 1-5 damage AGAIN despite the boss having a 10 blunt rating that's below the 15 pierce and 20 edge. :|
 
I've never had to backtrack in my last playthrough. Whatever boss I encountered, I already had what I needed so I just had to change equipment around. The playthrough before that was back in like 2003 so I didn't really remember much about the game.

Affinity Guards aren't that great spells. It'll only lower the damage you take (obviously), but you pretty much have enough starting HP to survive every attack in the game if you don't intentionally make yourself more susceptible.

Affinity Attack spells on the other hand are excellent. Whenever possible, use the appropriate Affinity Attack, Degenerate and Invigorate.

Are you using appropriate gems? What about accessories? Because IIRC even the weakest Affinity gems can pump your damage by 25.

How is your DP/PP? You'll want PP maxed out as much as possible which is VERY quickly done with one Chain move (Instill?). DP should be kept as high as possible. They have very significant effects on your damage.

And IIRC...
- You should already have Frost Fusion by that point... which is a whopping +50 damage. If it changes your weapon's dominant Affinity you may even see a change of over +100.
- Salamander Ring is acquired pretty near the boss, which just fits perfectly against the boss.
- Undine Jasper gem which should give you +17 damage total against Fire Elemental. There might be other appropriate gems. If nothing else fits just use ones with +3 to everything specially Braveheart (+20% hit).
 
Wrong. Having to backtrack to get a weapon for the weakness needed is pure bullshit. "BUT YOU SHOULD HAVE BLUNT ALREADY." None of the enemies so far (besides the Earth Goleum) needed blunt so far. It's bad design to force the player to change tactics in a surprise move.

Then what are customization, strengths-weaknesses, or invoking new mechanics for?

Wolf Akela said:
I've never had to backtrack in my last playthrough. Whatever boss I encountered, I already had what I needed so I just had to change equipment around. The playthrough before that was back in like 2003 so I didn't really remember much about the game.

Affinity Guards aren't that great spells. It'll only lower the damage you take (obviously), but you pretty much have enough starting HP to survive every attack in the game if you don't intentionally make yourself more susceptible.

Affinity Attack spells on the other hand are excellent. Whenever possible, use the appropriate Affinity Attack, Degenerate and Invigorate.

Are you using appropriate gems? What about accessories? Because IIRC even the weakest Affinity gems can pump your damage by 25.

How is your DP/PP? You'll want PP maxed out as much as possible which is VERY quickly done with one Chain move (Instill?). DP should be kept as high as possible. They have very significant effects on your damage.

And IIRC...
- You should already have Frost Fusion by that point... which is a whopping +50 damage.
- Salamander Ring is acquired pretty near the boss, which just fits perfectly against the boss.
- Undine Jasper which should give you +17 damage total against Fire Elemental.

^^^ What he said, and what I said earlier: "the added factors to combat provide extra opportunities to gain advantage on one's enemies, the truest and only reason to add complexity to a combat system."; it isn't as simple as just making you gofer to old forges or look pretty yet only be faux choice.
 
Game really isn't that difficult.

I cruised through my last playthrough just fine.
finalozzo said:
not difficult, frustrating.
Okay fine, the game really isn't that frustrating either.

It's all in the preparation.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
SatelliteOfLove said:
Then what are customization, strengths-weaknesses, or invoking new mechanics for?

Progression. You don't throw a Blunt enemy at the end of a long dungeon after fighting 50+ enemies that are edged or pierced. It's a terrible "HAHA, GOT YOU PSYCHE!" move on the developers part to force you to change tactics for one enemy.

I'd say the same thing for a last boss that flies in the face of all the mechanics that the game has taught you in the course of 5+ hours. Poor design.

Wolf Akela said:
I've never had to backtrack in my last playthrough. Whatever boss I encountered, I already had what I needed so I just had to change equipment around. The playthrough before that was back in like 2003 so I didn't really remember much about the game.

Affinity Guards aren't that great spells. It'll only lower the damage you take (obviously), but you pretty much have enough starting HP to survive every attack in the game if you don't intentionally make yourself more susceptible.

Affinity Attack spells on the other hand are excellent. Whenever possible, use the appropriate Affinity Attack, Degenerate and Invigorate.

Are you using appropriate gems? What about accessories? Because IIRC even the weakest Affinity gems can pump your damage by 25.

How is your DP/PP? You'll want PP maxed out as much as possible which is VERY quickly done with one Chain move (Instill?). DP should be kept as high as possible. They have very significant effects on your damage.

And IIRC...
- You should already have Frost Fusion by that point... which is a whopping +50 damage. If it changes your weapon's dominant Affinity you may even see a change of over +100.
- Salamander Ring is acquired pretty near the boss, which just fits perfectly against the boss.
- Undine Jasper gem which should give you +17 damage total against Fire Elemental. There might be other appropriate gems. If nothing else fits just use ones with +3 to everything specially Braveheart (+20% hit).

Here:

Status/Ashley Riot said:
HP: 262 MP: 51
STR: 106/106
INT: 110/110
AGI: 104/104

Limbs/R Arm said:
Affinity:
Physical: 0
Air: 0
Fire: 0
Earth: 0
Water: 0
Light: 0
Dark: 0

Type:
Blunt: 0
Edged: 0
Piercing: 0

Limbs/L Arm said:
Affinity:
Physical: 0
Air: 0
Fire: 0
Earth: 0
Water: 0
Light: 0
Dark: 0

Type:
Blunt: 0
Edged: 0
Piercing: 0

Limbs/Head said:
Affinity:
Physical: 0
Air: 0
Fire: 0
Earth: 0
Water: 0
Light: 0
Dark: 0

Type:
Blunt: 0
Edged: 0
Piercing: 0

Limbs/Body said:
Affinity:
Physical: 0
Air: 0
Fire: 0
Earth: 0
Water: 0
Light: 0
Dark: 0

Type:
Blunt: 0
Edged: 0
Piercing: 0

Limbs/Legs said:
Affinity:
Physical: 0
Air: 0
Fire: 0
Earth: 0
Water: 0
Light: 0
Dark: 0

Type:
Blunt: 0
Edged: 0
Piercing: 0

Equip/right now/B. Weapon said:
Beastwars (custom named PIERCE/EDGE dagger/one-handed)
Class:
Human: -1
Beast: 45
Undead: -8
Phantom: -9
Dragon: -1
Evil: -3

Affinity:
(All grey but Earth)
Physical: 3
Air: 12
Fire: 12
Earth: 16
Water: 4
Light: 8
Dark: 2

Type:
(All grey but Edged)
Blunt: 8
Edged: 6
Piercing: 2

DP: 74/152
PP: 127/127

Range: 1/8
Risk: 1/1
STR: 8/114
INT: 2/112
AGI: -3/101

Equip/Shield/B Quad Shield said:
Class:
Human: 5
Beast: 8
Undead: -6
Phantom: -1
Dragon: 2
Evil: -6

Affinity:
Physical: 24
Air: -7
Fire: -13
Earth: 1
Water: 16
Light: -4
Dark: -6

Type:
Blunt: 0
Edged: 6
Piercing: 6

DP: 0/71
PP: 189/189

STR: 11/117
INT: 12/122
AGI: 0/104

Equip/R. Arm/B Ring Sleeve said:
Class:
Human: 1
Beast: 4
Undead: -5
Phantom: -1
Dragon: -1
Evil: -5

Affinity:
Physical: 13
Air: -6
Fire: -2
Earth: 3
Water: 3
Light: 0
Dark: -5

Type:
Blunt: 0
Edged: 3
Piercing: 0

DP: 38/70

STR: 6/112
INT: 6/116
AGI: -3/101

Equip/L. Arm/B Knuckles said:
Class:
Human: 3
Beast: 6
Undead: -3
Phantom: -3
Dragon: 3
Evil: -4

Affinity:
Physical: 27
Air: -8
Fire: -2
Earth: 1
Water: -2
Light: 2
Dark: -5

Type:
Blunt: 0
Edged: 1
Piercing: 5

DP: 0/68

STR: 5/111
INT: 6/116
AGI: -2/102

Equip/Head/B Spangenhelm said:
Class:
Human: 0
Beast: -2
Undead: -2
Phantom: -1
Dragon: -1
Evil: -5

Affinity:
Physical: 5
Air: -5
Fire: 0
Earth: 3
Water: 2
Light: 5
Dark: -4

Type:
Blunt: 1
Edged: 1
Piercing: 1

DP: 62/73

STR: 5/111
INT: 6/116
AGI: -3/101

Equip/Body/I Banded Mail said:
Class:
Human: 2
Beast: 8
Undead: -3
Phantom: 1
Dragon: 3
Evil: 0

Affinity:
Physical: 12
Air: -1
Fire: -3
Earth: -5
Water: -1
Light: 7
Dark: -3

Type:
Blunt: 0
Edged: 0
Piercing: 3

DP: 87/108

STR: 12/118
INT: 9/119
AGI: -3/101

Equip/Legs/B Ring Leggings said:
Class:
Human: -1
Beast: 0
Undead: -2
Phantom: -1
Dragon: -1
Evil: -5

Affinity:
Physical: 9
Air: -5
Fire: -2
Earth: 2
Water: 2
Light: 2
Dark: -2

Type:
Blunt: 4
Edged: 3
Piercing: 0

DP: 75/83

STR: 7/113
INT: 7/117
AGI: -3/101

Equip/Accessory/Salamander Ring said:
Class:
Human: 0
Beast: 0
Undead: 0
Phantom: 0
Dragon: 0
Evil: 0

Affinity:
Physical: 0
Air: 0
Fire: 15
Earth: 0
Water: -10
Light: 0
Dark: 0

Type:
Blunt: 10
Edged: 0
Piercing: 5

STR: 3/109
INT: 3/113
AGI: 0/104

That help you? I pretty much turned Gameshark on and spammed magic and healing magic to get past the
Fire Elemental
and
Golem at the end of the mine
Now I'm back where the second workshop is without having to massively backtrack. So, yay.
 
TheSeks said:
Progression. You don't throw a Blunt enemy at the end of a long dungeon after fighting 50+ enemies that are edged or pierced. It's a terrible "HAHA, GOT YOU PSYCHE!" move on the developers part to force you to change tactics for one enemy.

I'd say the same thing for a last boss that flies in the face of all the mechanics that the game has taught you in the course of 5+ hours. Poor design.

That help you? I pretty much turned Gameshark on and spammed magic and healing magic to get past the
Fire Elemental
and
Golem at the end of the mine
Now I'm back where the second workshop is without having to massively backtrack. So, yay.

"Heaven forbid!" at the bolded and yes you do, or there's no point to having a Blunt designation if it's of no advantage or danger to you. Fail to plan, plan to fail.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
SatelliteOfLove said:
"Heaven forbid!" at the bolded

Way to miss what I'm getting at. It's pure bullshit to FORCE someone to have to use a blunt weapon when 99% of the enemies encountered in that area DON'T NEED IT. Pulling Psyche! moves on the player is poor design and poor attempts to make a challenge.

Of course, given how shallow the combat is beyond "CHAIN CHAIN CHAIN. Wait, shit, he's chain resistant? CLASS/TYPE/ELEMENTAL" is, I guess they have to go with shitty psyche! moments to provide challenge.

It's like Call of Duty being explosions every five minutes and you avoiding them only to turn out that the last boss is Akuma from Street Fighter and you now have to use fighting game mechanics to beat the game. Fucking stupid.

Edit: And that's not to say I hate the game. I don't. The Combat system is similar to Parasite Eve, one of my favorite games. HOWEVER the whole "deepness" of the system is really shallow and the design of the dungeons where a twist enemy in one room that requires a weapon you may/may not have due to the fact that the rest of the dungeon doesn't need it is really bullshit. It isn't "discover the weakness," when that weakness is only used for one enemy in that area.

Maybe with time and as the game gets further on blunt becomes more useful and actually worthwhile. But so far edge and pierce with class benefits have far outweighed blunts usefulness.
 
TheSeks said:
That help you? I pretty much turned Gameshark on and spammed magic and healing magic to get past the
Fire Elemental
and
Golem at the end of the mine
Now I'm back where the second workshop is without having to massively backtrack. So, yay.

Alright, let's break your weapon down for Fire Elemental.
Phantom: -9
Negative stat. Pretty much -9 damage.

Water: 4
Earth: 16
Earth is highest, so it's your weapon element. Fire Elemental has Earth 45. This is pretty -29 damage.

Fire Elemental has Blunt 10, so just a -2 damage. Overall, you suffer -40 damage.

To fix:
- Slap an Undine Jasper on your weapon. You end up with 19 Water, turning your weapon into Water elemental. Fire Elemental only has 5 water, so +14 damage.
- Use Frost Fusion. +50 water. +64 damage total so far.

So suddenly, compared to your older weapon, your damage got boosted by +104. That only took like, what, 20 seconds to setup?

If you repair your weapon and max out DP, expect a bigger boost. Even more so if you cast Degenerate.

Stats are very straight forward. You just gotta remember some basics:
- Class rating applied is the one appropriate against the monster. If yu hit a Dragon monster, your weapon's Dragon stat is applied.
- Affinity rating applied is the highest one; the rest doesn't matter. If you have 99 Earth and 100 Water, it's still Water element while other stats are ignored (grayed out).
- Type rating applied is the highest one; the rest doesn't matter. Same rules as Affinity.
- Armor stats affect only defense.
- Accessory stats affect both offense and defense.

Analyze, Fusion and buff/debuff spells are your best spells.

Always repair when you get to a new workshop. There's no reason not to do it. Instill chain will max out your PP in just a couple of hits.

==================

You're in a worse situation against Golem assuming you use the exact same weapon. You get -52 damage assuming you hit the legs.
 
TheSeks said:
Way to miss what I'm getting at. It's pure bullshit to FORCE someone to have to use a blunt weapon when 99% of the enemies encountered in that area DON'T NEED IT. Pulling Psyche! moves on the player is poor design and poor attempts to make a challenge.

Of course, given how shallow the combat is beyond "CHAIN CHAIN CHAIN. Wait, shit, he's chain resistant? CLASS/TYPE/ELEMENTAL" is, I guess they have to go with shitty psyche! moments to provide challenge.

It's like Call of Duty being explosions every five minutes and you avoiding them only to turn out that the last boss is Akuma from Street Fighter and you now have to use fighting game mechanics to beat the game. Fucking stupid.

Edit: And that's not to say I hate the game. I don't. The Combat system is similar to Parasite Eve, one of my favorite games. HOWEVER the whole "deepness" of the system is really shallow and the design of the dungeons where a twist enemy in one room that requires a weapon you may/may not have due to the fact that the rest of the dungeon doesn't need it is really bullshit. It isn't "discover the weakness," when that weakness is only used for one enemy in that area.

Maybe with time and as the game gets further on blunt becomes more useful and actually worthwhile. But so far edge and pierce with class benefits have far outweighed blunts usefulness.


If the "deepness" of the system is really shallow, how come you can't comprehend it enough to beat relatively easy bosses? The game has three classes of weapons, and enemies are extremely weak or resilient to the different classes, yet you don't keep around a weapon from each class?
 

truly101

I got grudge sucked!
Its been a decade since I played it but I still have my NG+ save. I remember having one weapon for each enemy type, that seemed to work well enough. I named them all so I knew what they did, Dragon Slayer, Beast Killer, Phantom Thwacker. Everyone needs a phantom thwacker.
 
^Same thing I did last playthrogh lol. Human Killer, Dragon Slayer, Beast Tamer, Phantombeater, Evil Banisher and Undead Purifier.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
robotzombie said:
If the "deepness" of the system is really shallow, how come you can't comprehend it enough to beat relatively easy bosses? The game has three classes of weapons, and enemies are extremely weak or resilient to the different classes, yet you don't keep around a weapon from each class?

Uh, I do? Human, Beast, etc. etc. etc. BLUNT weakness hasn't shown up except in two bosses. None of the cannon fodder enemies have needed BLUNT requirements.

The combat is shallow. The attempt at being "deep" comes from the mess of a three-type (and I'm not talking "blunt/edge/pierce" I'm talking "class/element/type") system that ruins the combat for EVERYTHING in a manner where doing one way (class/element) is thrown out the window for boss for a type that wasn't needed for 99% of the game. That's my point. Pulling the rug out from the player for doing one way that wasn't told as a "NO THAT'S WRONG" is stupid. Why the hell wasn't type mentioned in a tutorial or something in the intro? They basically throw you in the deep end, you swing with the starter sword for the first dungeon and HEY no blunt or pierce is needed.

- Slap an Undine Jasper on your weapon. You end up with 19 Water, turning your weapon into Water elemental. Fire Elemental only has 5 water, so +14 damage.

Oh, hey, if that's what you're supposed to do why are none of the weapon pick-up hilts GIVING me that option? Only one of my weapons has the ability to put one gem on it and it isn't a phantom type.
 
Damage doesn't revolve around Type. In previous playthrough, I didn't even put Type into consideration; I cared more about slots.

People only suggest you carry a weapon for each type simply because it's convenient. Class is easily changed by gems. Affinity is easily changed by both gems and Fusion spells. Changing type means having to go to an appropriate workshop to reassemble a weapon with a particular grip.

Carrying weapons based on Class means frequently changing weapons (and have only 2 free space left). Carrying weapons based on Type means 5 free space left.

Oh, hey, if that's what you're supposed to do why are none of the weapon pick-up hilts GIVING me that option? Only one of my weapons has the ability to put one gem on it and it isn't a phantom type.
Disassemble your weapons, grab the slotted grip, assemble with your best compatible blade, attach Undine Jasper.

You won't even need the gem if you just maintain your Frost Fusion, which is conveniently in a chest before the boss.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
So, I'm basically supposed to use one hilt and assemble it in the workshop for nearly every enemy type I run across for the whole game now? Gee, that seems... counter productive to progression. Given there is about two types that are needed for most of the game so far.

I don't think I would be bitching so much if hey you could do more than disassemble weapons and add/remove gems outside of workshops. Removing the blades from grips and trying them out on others would be more useful than running back to workshops and attempting to use one blade because drops aren't giving you more of the better blade types in the game. :|
 
No need to assemble for every type. Just pick your best Edge/Pierce/Blunt grips then slap your best blades on them. Let spells and gems take care of the rest.

Class ratings change pretty slowly so they hardly matter. Affinity ratings can fluctuate and completely change your weapon's element, so gems and spells are there to fix that.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
...Which again basically means running to the workshop to assemble stuff. Joy. :/ I think at this point I should just leave the Gameshark on and spam spam spam magic to get to the end of the game slowly but surely. Given there's only one gem hilt in my inventory to use.
 
TheSeks said:
...Which again basically means running to the workshop to assemble stuff. Joy. :/ I think at this point I should just leave the Gameshark on and spam spam spam magic to get to the end of the game slowly but surely. Given there's only one gem hilt in my inventory to use.

Yes, at some point you actually have to use some of the main functions of the game, such as weapon creation.

It really isn't that hard to build one of each pierce, edged, and blunt weapons and use the best hilt you have available for each. Then as you get to new workshops, see if you can upgrade your blades through combining, and see if you can dissassemble any new weapons you got in order to use better hilts.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
Wolf Akela said:
Well, if you don't like customizing your arsenal, you picked the wrong game. :/

It's not that. But if that's the whole system, why not allow changing blades and hilts outside the workshop? I'm not asking for combining, but at least not having the rug pulled from under you because you aren't carrying a type and thus having to backtrack, find a type. No shit that don't work, backtrack. No shit that don't work, backtrack... just isn't great.

Games good, but the system underlaying the weapons is poor.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
Eh... I've repaired before, AFAIK that removes DP or PP or whatever to where the weapon becomes weak. *shrug*

Broke down my weapons and armor, even went back to the first workshop to kill the massive leather armor armory I had. Got a few pieces of whatever the hell the H type is along with a human H type edge. Of course, now my other classes are stuck in limbo as I want them to be certain types of weapons to learn the break arts and I'm not getting those weapons. :/
Along with combining them with other similar weapons and getting WORSE stats despite the dominate weapon + the combining weapon having a dominate stat that are similar and should be skyrocketing the class
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
So here's this giant enemy crab... hit the weak spot for mas--YOU DIED. :|

Blunt weakness... again... oh boy, I'm sensing a pattern with the bosses being mostly blunt while the rest are able to be ran through with edge and pierce. :/
 
TheSeks said:
So here's this giant enemy crab... hit the weak spot for mas--YOU DIED. :|

Blunt weakness... again... oh boy, I'm sensing a pattern with the bosses being mostly blunt while the rest are able to be ran through with edge and pierce. :/

Enchant your weapon with it's elemental weakness and aim for the mouth.
 
Eh... I've repaired before, AFAIK that removes DP or PP or whatever to where the weapon becomes weak. *shrug*
It removes PP when you repair. Weapon PP is very easily regained (Instill) while armor PP hardly matters.

I used my beast-trained axe against my first crab. He's pretty weak against Air, then Fire. If you don't have gems for those you can just use Degenerate + Prostasia.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
I have neither of those as the dominate element on this weapon and slapping a gem or spell on won't do much good as it's a physical 45 weapon.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
I'm in the forest and I think I'm sort-of lost given the map keeps jumping around. D:

Follow the gathering. How am I supposed to deduce that when it's just the snowflys falling like snow?
 

Piecake

Member
Man, this is really making me want to play this game again. I wonder if my ps2 actually still works...

Crap, PS2 isnt working too well. Well, it works, its just that it freezes for like 10 minutes occasionally...
 

cackhyena

Member
Just got FF9 and playing it for the first time since release way back when and I'm in love again. Anyways, saw this game right near it in the store and for about the thousandth time, wondered if I should give it a shot. Maybe I should look up YT vids for an idea of what it's like. FF12 is one of my favies in terms of art direction, soooo.....
 
TheSeks said:
I'm in the forest and I think I'm sort-of lost given the map keeps jumping around. D:

Follow the gathering. How am I supposed to deduce that when it's just the snowflys falling like snow?

I think the moss on the side of trees is a clue.
 

Dunan

Member
cackhyena said:
Just got FF9 and playing it for the first time since release way back when and I'm in love again. Anyways, saw this game right near it in the store and for about the thousandth time, wondered if I should give it a shot. Maybe I should look up YT vids for an idea of what it's like. FF12 is one of my favies in terms of art direction, soooo.....

If you like the world that FF12 built, you'll like this.

If you like the translation of FF12 and its style, you'll definitely like this.

Art-wise, it's great, but only for its time. Come to think of it, has anyone ever upscaled this game to make it look like FF12 does on PCSX2?
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
Okay, stumble my way through the forest and
yet another dragon
, well shit, I can't back up. H'YA--YOU DIED.

*sigh*

Flipping save points near the bosses would be nice. :|
 
leroidys said:
So... I don't really "get" workshops. What is this about combining iron and bronze?
Combining can produce new equipment. I combine every piece of armor I can find to see if it'll produce something better.

Weapons are a bit trickier since you kinda want to keep your ratings for them.
 

Piecake

Member
leroidys said:
So... I don't really "get" workshops. What is this about combining iron and bronze?

Combine Bronze and Iron to get Hagane, which is a better quality metal so a superior sword/armor
 
No material drops, only actual armor you can equip.

Metals have same class ratings I believe, like Silver being generally more powerful against undead/evil enemies compared to other metals.
 

leroidys

Member
Wolf Akela said:
No material drops, only actual armor you can equip.

Metals have same class ratings I believe, like Silver being generally more powerful against undead/evil enemies compared to other metals.

Oh ok. So you have to, say, combine two gauntlets to get a better piece or is does it matter what slot the armor takes up?

EDIT:

Sorry for all the questions, I actually did all the tutorials in the game and still have no clue about the crafting. And the in depth FAQs on it are just giant recipes - I would rather understand some of the underlying logic and be able to make crafting choices on my own, at least on this first playthrough.
 
There are recipes but I honestly just try combinations and see if I end up with something better (base and ratings). Crafting armor isn't super important.

And IIRC you can't combine different armor pieces. I never consulted a recipe guide at all.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
Well, took me an hour to get through the forest. Thanks for not helping me after I took out
the summoner dude that was working with the church and apparently working with Grisom and
Sydney to take out the other half of the battle. :| Thankfully, found a ledge, had magic ward to prevent their cure spell (but that sucker takes a LOT of MP. :|) and slowly eeked out a win after finding an evil gem in a chest across from the ledge I perched.

HOLY SHIT WHAT A TWIST at the end of that battle. :eek:!

>>Crafting<<

Crafting armor sucks. I have the Hagane or whatever H word level armors for all my stuff and combining leathers to make into iron just lose Durability Points and made some of the -'s in class and stuff WORSE off. :/

Crafting the weapons does have a net benefit if you keep crafting the blades and don't lose too much DP or the ratings they had. But it takes a while to see what the net benefits are and what all you gain from the combinations.

Crossing "class"'s of stuff (body armor and a gauntlet) can sometimes give you a new thing (boots, or in the case of weapons, blade sword + blade dagger = blade for crossbows). There isn't really a tutorial or anything for this. They throw you in the deepend and figure you'll figure it out, which is pretty stupid on Matsuno's part.

Edit: Someone should put this in the OP. Mega helpful in the forest.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
Okay, so I found out that Matsuno basically wants you to upgrade weapons by a ladder scheme instead of actually free-flowing stats. This is... fucking stupid.

Why the hell didn't Square slap Matsuno, tell him to get Square US at the time on the horn and basically be told how a proper damn weapon management system is supposed to be done a la Parasite Eve? Instead of going "I choose this weapon and blade and improve them over time," you're basically being told "no, that's wrong. You're going to get a worse weapon and WE WANT YOU TO GO UP OUR MATERIAL AND WEAPON CLASS LADDER INSTEAD." :| So, once you reach the top, you basically have to grab a new weapon and start over as no stats will increase and actually will DECREASE if you merge the weapons.

Also got 50% of the map completely and have two lock spell thingies to use but I'm not sure where the hell I'm supposed to use them and am missing chests due to not having the chest key to unlock them and no iron key to progress either. Yay. :/ Lost.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
Wolf Akela said:
Just go check your map. You'll see "Unlockable" icons in a room.

Yeah, I found where I had to go. But I'm still pissed with the weapon upgrade system. So pissed I'm writing a long rant/review on GameFAQs about how I think the mechanics going against normal J/WRPG norms for customization is, IMO, frankly terrible.

I'll finish the game via Gameshark eventually. But I'm tired of banging my head against the terrible system and trying to go it blind. The game punishes you for not looking at FAQs apparently.

Which is a shame, because I do like the art style and story so far. But the actual gameplay is horrible. :/
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
I doubt anyone will care, but:

My opinion said:
Go back to Ivalice, they said. You'll enjoy Vagrant Story if you liked Final Fantasy XII immensely, they said...

Unfortunately, that's not true. Vagrant Story is available on PSN for $6 in the US. For a game that doesn't have the infamous "Square Tax" and is by Yasumi Matsuno, you'd think the game would be decent if flawed. Unfortunately, the "flawed" aspects take their toll on what would be a decent if shallow game otherwise.

Lets start off with the graphics. The graphics are top-notch for a 2000 PSX game by Squaresoft. The opening cutscenes for the game were mostly in engine, which is impressive when you find the animation and motion that the characters take on is pretty detailed. Skirts and hair on the female characters will animate when they turn their heads, for instance.

Music I can't comment on given I played on a PSP with no sound enabled.

How I longed for a continuation of Ivalice's world in a 3D non-SRPG sense. Then I heard talk about Vagrant Story. "It got a perfect 40/40 from Famitsu! Just like Final Fantasy XII! No one really played it! The game is good! Try it! Try it!"

So I did. The opening minutes lead you to believe you're onto something special. The first few hours is unbelievable. The cutscenes and atmosphere is incredible. But after you get out of the wine cellar, which is the "tutorial area" for the game, you run into the major issues with the game.

Let's get to the meat of what makes the game terrible: The gameplay. Oh, the gameplay. How it should be good in theory. On paper, it's supposed to be an Western role-playing theme fantasy action game with Japanese role-playing elements. The idea behind it sounds good: You play as Ashley Riot, a "Riskbreaker," basically a member of the elite guard for the government of some country that is loosely based in Ivalice at Square's request. Being a "Riskbreaker," you have to master the idea behind "risk," Square's mechanic of doing major attacks but at the same time you take more damage and have a harder time kicking ass and taking names when your risk is high. To offset this, Square included "Vera Root/Bulb"s, which reduce the "risk" state by 25 and 50% respectively. For a while, and during the intro dungeon as well, the risk won't be too much of an issue.

Then you run into the weapon workshops nearly at the of the wine cellar, and before the game really opens up. Okay, the workshop is where Vagrant Story takes a nosedive. You're basically told NOTHING about the workshop other than "this is where you can repair your weapons and take the blades of the weapon and put them in a new handle. Enjoy!" That's literally it. No tutorial, no mention of it in the in the "quick help" menu option for looking things up. The included manual of the PSN version doesn't even mention it either.

Okay, not a big deal. There's only two types you can use or "combine" into other weapons, so you can safely ignore it. You exit the dungeon and start into Lea Monde proper. The game starts to pick up from the slow intro. You're wailing away at enemies without care with maybe two-three weapons. Until you run into a boss that requires a type of weapon you may not have even thought of using since none of the enemies before that point required it. A blunt weapon. Okay, no big deal, you'll backtrack and get one from the workshop or any other chest in the area that is like the Biohazard series' magic storage boxes. But no, because the type/element/class are all in negative or 0 values because you didn't have to use the weapon before this point, you get 5-10 damage a hit.

And there lies Vagrant Stories biggest problem: It explains little to nothing about it's underlaying mechanics. You know you're in for a bad game when you're basically told to go read a "Combat Mechanics Guide," (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/914326-vagrant-story/faqs/56772) Beamup's done a bang-up job on trying to explain the system. Unfortunately that system is inherently flawed.

The combat system is really simple: Chain or die. Chains are drilled into your head in the case of "do them because they do more damage than possible with single hits and give benefits." Okay, great. But then you run into "chain-resistant"/high evasion enemies where you basically have to sling spells, or slowly but surely wack the enemy at one. hit. a. turn. Terrible.

And that's not to mention the class/element/type system. Class is basically shown on the first screen of the stats page for weapons or armor. You would think that was the most important stat, and given most of the advice on the internet for this game is "use a separate weapon for the different classes to gain huge damage," you'd think it would be simple, right? No. Elements and Type are apparently the best and Beamup's guide says that. However, you run into issues where you're basically fighting the game the whole way through with having to change blades out or handles to gain huge stat bonuses or then you're slotting gems to gain element bonuses against enemies for huge damage. Otherwise, you get 5-10 damage a hit and are doing majorly less damage than the enemies are doing to you. Poor design.

And that's not mentioning the worst problem with Vagrant Story for people that want to go in blind and try to enjoy it without guides: The upgrade system. I mentioned it above, but you can "combine" blades for stat bonuses. You <i>would</i> think that "hey, combining weapons together will mean they'll eventually get stronger and better over time." This is the way games with crafting systems generally go. You pick your favorite weapon and simply level it up as you go and then you become bad-ass incarnate while decimating enemies in the game.

However that is <b>wrong</b>. The game goes "no, we're not going to go with common sense. We're going to force you to look up guides (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps/914326-vagrant-story/faqs/8485) for arbitrary lines to cross in the sense of upgrading your weapons. Your weapons you've been combining together in hope of gaining better stats and gains? TOO BAD! They're <b>wasted!</b> :D!"

So, you basically have to bang your head against the wall if playing the game blind with no guide. You slowly, so very slowly learn "chain abilities" and "just-defense abilities," along with "break arts."

Break arts, I've found it via Beamup, is USELESS. There is only maybe one-two of them that are useful. And learning them is slower than molasses. You have to kill enemies with the weapon type you want to learn a break art in. Hey, that's simple... until you start going from 100 EXP to 250 EXP to 450 EXP and beyond. EXP is gained at 1 EXP per defeated enemy. Starting to see the problem here?

Chain Abilities are the "offensive chain" systems special abilities. They come in heavy damage 70% extra damage or gaining durability points for your weapon so it degrades and weakens slower. The majority of the abilities have their place and time, so they're useful... but that's the thing, at the same time they <i>aren't<i> useful.

"Just Defense"/Defensive Abilities are what they sound like. Defensive properties that are not are useful... in fact, from the ones I've gained, they pale in comparison to the offensive abilities. You can reflect damage and gain HP and some other stuff. Which is nice, but not too useful in comparison to the offensive options.

But then you start to run into bosses that need higher and better weapons. Okay, no prob--Oh, wait, you can't do as much damage as them as you aren't prepared for combat with them. You stumble into their room with no indication there is going to be a boss battle there other than the room being empty, the door locking behind you. Thereby screwing you over if you didn't save before hand in an area that is most likely further than the boss area is close to. The boss areas have no save points near by in general. There is points, sure, but they're about 5-10 rooms away. A bit of a hassle when you're exploring the area and killing enemies and then run into a boss.

Which leads to the Magic system. The magic system has offensive, defensive, healing, and information properties. But if you're playing the game on a clean/new save file for the first time and haven't read a guide you're going to have little to no useful magic other than healing for a good while. Sure, the buffs are nice. But if you're doing 5-10 damage a pop because the stats won't increase because you don't know what combines with what to cross a line to get the stats to increase, they aren't going to do too much to help you. Sure, you could spam Healing at 5MP a pop, until you realize that Ashley starts at 50MP and gains bonuses with potions or the roulette wheel bonus gain system after defeating a boss. But wait, you don't gain the buffs for quite a while so Ashley is actually going to be weak for the first 5-10 hours. You'll get a general buff for weapons after maybe two harder bosses that really test your knowledge of the weapon system. Which, if you haven't been reading a guide because you're going in blind, is a complete mystery and probably prone to screwing you over.

But hey, you have a good defense ability on your side if you picked it up: Reflect damage. Basically, if you "just defense" at the right time, you'll do roughly 30% of damage to a boss. This is helpful if you're good at hitting the ability button at the right time to do more damage than you will with your weak weapons. And hopefully, if you have enough MP or MP gaining items, you'll reflect damage the boss to death. But eventually, the reflect damage defense ability <b>doesn't</b> work on bosses and enemies if they're spamming magic at you. So you're back to square one.

Then again, you may not be prepared for combat with a boss in general if you aren't reading a guide. Beamup's guide suggests to <b>not</b> use two-handed weapons. Why? Because apparently in the games stats, you aren't going to have a higher magic stat to get better magic gains and have a weaker defense (reasonable, really), but the trade off is that you are "at a distance" and shouldn't be getting hit, right? <b>Wrong</b>. Vagrant Story's bosses seem to just <i>love to spam magic</i> at you from a distance so you have to close in to startle the AI into physical attacks. Which makes two-handed weapons, crossbows, and the like a major major gameplay "no-no."

But you're probably not going to know that if you aren't reading a guide, right? So you're wailing away at 5-10HP damage a pop and hoping to kill the enemy with items and weapons and lowering risk by the bucket load in items at your disposal and probably will die over and over and over. Not a huge deal, but backtracking to workshops or containers for weapons to use against a boss is annoying and gets frustrating fast. But the major <b>major</b> kick in the balls is when you learn that you get an "Analyze" spell that is basically the Vagrant Story equivalent to "Scan" from Final Fantasy. You'd think you'd get this early in the game and it would be super useful, right? <b>Wrong</b>. You gain it about 10-12 hours into the game if you've been banging your head against the bosses and trying to move past without dying over and over. Which, ironically, would've been made simpler if you knew what the weaknesses were without having to check a guide. This is Vagrant Story's version of comedy: You gain on a fresh/clean save file a new magic spell <i>just after the time it would be most useful!</i> Just fought a Fire Element weak boss? With no fire element weapon buff spell? Good for you, here is the spell for defeating him with a major hassle! :D!

Oh, but Analyze: Super useful... if you can get it to land. Yes, that's right: Analyze does not work like "Scan" in Final Fantasy. It isn't a sure thing. This means you run into the risk of <i>wasting MP in an attempt to find the bosses weakness to help you!</i> And with MP at 52 points a pop, MP is <b>super important</b> to you not to waste. This hinders a player that isn't using a guide in the attempt to get past bosses with least hassle.

But fret not, fellow blind-no-guide-using player! You gain stat bonuses with a "roulette wheel" system after defeating each boss. Some of the stats get +5 while most are +1 or in between the two. Unfortunately, if you don't know what you're supposed to be doing, you're going to think "hey, HP+5 is a good stat gain! It's the hugest! I'm sure I'll get a STR+5 bonus eventually if I land it!" <b>Wrong!</b> I have come to find out with arguing with Vagrant Story players that <i>that actually screws you over</i> in the long run as HP/MP gain potions are plentiful from bosses while actual stat gains aren't. This means, if you're gaining the greatest stat gains from the roulette, you're not helping yourself in the long run. <b>Terrible.</b> Of course, I shouldn't have to mention that the roulette system in general is a terrible idea as you're basically gambling to win the best stats available in the game. If potions were more plentiful for non-HP/MP stats, this wouldn't be a huge deal. Unfortunately, it is.

But, you can upgrade weapons! Your supposed to be upgrading weapons! The whole cutscene/attract mode FMV shows weapons! The weapon system is the star!

Sure, but like I stated a "free flow" WRPG customization option this is not. If you aren't reading a guide to find this out, you'll be in for a rude shock at wasting weapons in the hope of gaining stats and buffs through "this has good stats and that has good stats. Combining both should give me a net benefit!" <b>No</b>. Vagrant Story takes averages and if you <i>haven't been using the weapons</i> you'll generally come out with a <i>worse</i> weapon than what you gave to get.

BUT WAIT! If you aren't reading a guide you won't know what Vagrant Story wants you to do: It wants you to cross a non-hinted line in a type of material and weapon system to get general stat bonuses and increases.

This means, if you are combining Wooden Swords together you <b>will not get any stat increases</b> if they are the same weapon and one is one you've been using for a while. Okay, great. That's reasonable, I mean I wouldn't expect to be able to kick ass as a god with just a merger wooden sword, but it should carry me for a while, right? <b>No</b>. You have to combing a wooden and iron sword to gain a Hagen sword, for instance. And that Hagen sword <b>will</b> give you stat increases. But if it's a short-sword, you're probably on the lowest "rung" of the weapon-ladder system. You don't have a godly sword, so you won't get the best stat increase. It's a terribly designed system coming from WRPG's that allowed crafting good weapons with time and excess material. It's also a terrible crafting system in the case of Square: Parasite Eve, a JRPG from Squaresofts defunct US branch had a crafting system for guns and a new game+/"EX Game" mode. You basically upgraded weapons with tools and gained the stats to your chose gun or any of the benefits you wanted from that previous gun before it's lost forever and the benefits are on the gun you chose. It's an intuitive system when you aren't reading a guide. Why? Because the system follows normal crafting conventions and <i>has a tutorial in game</i> to explain it!

TL;DR: Vagrant Story has a good art-style and theme going, and the translation by Alexander O. Smith is amazing for the time the game came out. Unfortunately, unless you read Beamup's guide that many people suggest, you're going to have a very frustrating experience that ruins the game. Sadly, this means possibly spoiling yourself on the games bosses and other things that would take you by surprise if you were going in blind.

I feel this is terrible, as Vagrant Story could be better if the mechanics weren't actively obtuse for the sake of being obtuse and actually worthwhile to use. Sadly, this will never be the case and I can't recommend this game to anyone that enjoyed Final Fantasy XII and Final Fantasy Tactics (both Matsuno games!). There is far too much working against a player unless they want to spend time and spoil themselves to learn the game to best complete it without cheating.

2/10 or 1/5

I really really want to like this game, but it actively works against me unless I want to read a guide. Which is a terrible practice for a game. :/ Gonna gameshark it and at least finish it, but I can't see myself replaying it for New Game +.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
mistuhcahlos said:
I got stuck in the snowfly forest months ago, haven't touched the game since.

Follow the map I linked about five posts up. Put the map to the "north" and follow the red arrows unless you're going for 100% map coverage. It's quick and painless than wandering around for an hour to be smacked by a boss because you don't have their weakness weapon. :|

SatelliteOfLove said:
>>Experiment<<

Yes, experiment with the weapon system and find out the weapon system SUCKS because it doesn't like experimenting unless you cross a thresh-hold in your experimenting that'll INCREASE the stats. Right. *rolls eyes*
 
Music I can't comment on given I played on a PSP with no sound enabled.

You're missing out on a lot. The sound effects and music are fantastic. The hidden intros are more cinematic than MGS1 imho.

To be honest, sounds to me that a lot of your complaints are basically "I didn't prepare nor can I adapt, therefore the game sucks because I'm doing weak damage".

You don't need to follow recipes at all. Without doing any kind of combinations at all, you can take down the final boss with ease with everything you can pick up. It's saying something because the final boss is problematic for a lot of players due to the huge defense (IIRC you have to overcome ~250). Recipes are something for post-game players.

50MP is honestly just enough. I never needed more than that unless I'm going on some sort of magic only run. What spells are usually cast in battle? You start with Fusion, Prostasia, Degenerate and maybe Tarnish. Rest is for Heal.

But eventually, the reflect damage defense ability <b>doesn't</b> work on bosses and enemies if they're spamming magic at you.
There's Reflect Damage and Reflect Magic.

You'd be fine even with just your base 100 stats. Like always, it's equipment and spells that matter. Your base stats are just bonuses.
 
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