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Sony Q2 FY 2011 Financial Results - 3.7M PS3s Ship, $350M Net Loss For Full Company

AgentChris

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StevieP said:
And why Sony is looking to get out of it.
After looking at the Sony financial results, SPE turned a profit. Sony should keep their movie business but get rid of Sony Music Entertainment; except for their megastars like Jay Chou.
 

Opiate

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StevieP said:
And why Sony is looking to get out of it.

To an extent, but another reason they're trying to get out of it is that their film business is actually worth something.

Electronics are high risk, high reward. Film is low risk, low reward. While the electronics departments are struggling, it makes sense to sell off a low reward but highly reliable segments that also has high revenue, like film -- because you can actually get a strong return on it.
 

offshore

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With Men in Black, Bond and Amazing Spider-Man all coming up, next year should at least be a high reward year for SPE. Although MiB is probably going to be awful. Will wait for reviews.
 
Mar 3, 2010
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Stumpokapow said:
The reason why there's no updated version is because both Microsoft and to a much greater extent Sony stashed their consoles in divisions that would significantly distort any data we put up.
It was the new synergy and reform plan that the CEO has put into effect. There was no synergy in any Sony division at all. Now they are working/will work better with each other. That´s why i cringe when people blame Stringer for the bad finance of Sony. Stringer was fighting Japanese corporate tradition/culture and he won. Now that he implemented reform and more synergy between divisions, Sony should be able to save a lot of money. The only obstacle is the strong Yen.
 

AgentChris

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offshore said:
With Men in Black, Bond and Amazing Spider-Man all coming up, next year should at least be a high reward year for SPE. Although MiB is probably going to be awful. Will wait for reviews.
2012 will be the best year for Sony Pictures. Will Smith, Spidey and Bond. O_O
 

donny2112

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goomba said:
How do Sony get away with the "worlds largest console maker " title when they have sold far less than the Wii ?.

It's not Sony saying it. It's Parmenides.

Xilium said:
Overall, Sony has sold more home consoles than any other console manufacturer through the years . They are probably going by that metric.

That's probably Parmenides slant on it, yes.
 
Mar 3, 2010
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Opiate said:
To an extent, but another reason they're trying to get out of it is that their film business is actually worth something.

Electronics are high risk, high reward. Film is low risk, low reward. While the electronics departments are struggling, it makes sense to sell off a low reward but highly reliable segments that also has high revenue, like film -- because you can actually get a strong return on it.
Did Sony said that they will get out of the film business? It would be very foolish. After all Sony entered the film business because the Betamx failed to garner support. Sony Pictures also supported Blu Ray and got connection in the movie industry. They will keep their movie business because it helps their tech business. It would be extremely idiotic if they sold SPE.
 

Takao

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Beam said:
Did Sony said that they will get out of the film business? It would be very foolish. After all Sony entered the film business because the Betamx failed to garner. Sony Pictures also supported Blu Ray and got connection in the movie industry. They will keep their movie business because it helps their tech business. It would be extremely idiotic if they sold SPE.

There's been rumors. An article last year predicted both Sony Pictures, and Sony Ericsson wouldn't exist by 2012. They were right about one of them.
 

OldJadedGamer

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Meisadragon said:
They cut the price to meet the FY 15 million forecast. Not for any other reasons. Also, the loss is due to other things.

Right, and sales are down since 15 million was the projected number last year and they didn't hit it at $299 so they knew they had to drop the price in order to keep sales constant. If they would have kept it at $299 then sales could have dropped to 10 or 12 million.
 

Zoe

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Takao said:
There's been rumors. An article last year predicted both Sony Pictures, and Sony Ericsson wouldn't exist by 2012. They were right about one of them.

But the latter is because they bought out Ericsson, isn't it?
 
Mar 3, 2010
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Takao said:
There's been rumors. An article last year predicted both Sony Pictures, and Sony Ericsson wouldn't exist by 2012. They were right about one of them.
I read that prediction. They made many shitty prediction throughout the years. And they were wrong about Sony Ericson. Sony bought the mobile business of Ericson and it will still exist. Sony Pictures is too valuable for Sony to sell it. Especially when they try to push thing like BR and 3D. They won´t sell SPE.
 

AgentChris

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I don't think Sony will ever let SPE go. Maybe they spin some parts of it and get better business people.
Takao said:
There's been rumors. An article last year predicted both Sony Pictures, and Sony Ericsson wouldn't exist by 2012. They were right about one of them.
But Sony has everything under their control now. They have all of Ericsson's patents.
 

bigtroyjon

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Something I noticed was that Sony has been going through a lot of cash in the last 12 months and this doesn't include the 1.05 billion Euro they are going to pay Ericsson.(exchange rate not always bad for Sony, Euro keeps dropping and deal becomes cheaper for them)

Cash and cash equivalents of all segments excluding the Financial Services segment was 575.2 billion yen (7,470 million U.S. dollars) at September 30, 2011, a decrease of 272.2 billion yen, or 32.1%, compared with the balance as of March 31, 2011. This was a decrease of 108.7 billion yen, or 15.9%, compared with the balance as of September 30, 2010.

Feels like people don't want to believe that shitty finances could impact the game unit but they can't give us the PS4 we want if they don't have the cash in the bank to back up the losses.

I also won't be surprised to see them really limit Vita manufacturing to limit their liability in case the worst happens(worst being them having to slash the price and take an inventory hit like Nintendo). Might end up sold out for a long time if it's a hit.
 

AranhaHunter

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bigtroyjon said:
Something I noticed was that Sony has been going through a lot of cash in the last 12 months and this doesn't include the 1.05 billion Euro they are going to pay Ericsson.(exchange rate not always bad for Sony, Euro keeps dropping and deal becomes cheaper for them)

What? Really? I thought the +60 billion yen to -90 billion yen was somehow due to them buying Ericsson. Sony's financials are a mess and have been for the past, what, 5 years?
 

OldJadedGamer

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bigtroyjon said:
I also won't be surprised to see them really limit Vita manufacturing to limit their liability in case the worst happens(worst being them having to slash the price and take an inventory hit like Nintendo). Might end up sold out for a long time if it's a hit.

Odds are they will make some excuse to only manufacture the 3G unit that barely anyone wants to get more profit out of it at launch.
 

Elios83

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http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...esign-as-ceo-by-march-new-york-post-says.html

Seems like Howard Stringer will step down in March, at the end of the fiscal year.
Hirai is “widely believed” to become Stringer’s successor according to the article, he also announced the latest fiscal results discussed in this thread to the investors.

Nothing surprising, probably Stringer hoped to go out with the company returning to profit, that won't be the case.
Will Hirai be able to fix Sony as a whole just like he fixed the gaming division and made PS3 a success with a huge comeback? Time will tell.
 

spwolf

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OldJadedGamer said:
Right, and sales are down since 15 million was the projected number last year and they didn't hit it at $299 so they knew they had to drop the price in order to keep sales constant. If they would have kept it at $299 then sales could have dropped to 10 or 12 million.

imagine if they kept $599... they would get 0 sales then.
 

spwolf

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AgentChris said:
But Sony has everything under their control now. They have all of Ericsson's patents.


exact opposite happened - Sony did not let go of SE, they increased their share to 100% :).
 

zomgbbqftw

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AranhaHunter said:
What? Really? I thought the +60 billion yen to -90 billion yen was somehow due to them buying Ericsson. Sony's financials are a mess and have been for the past, what, 5 years?

Even though they pay out cash for Sony Ericsson they wouldn't take a charge unless the unit was somehow devalued after purchase. The assets they buy would go into the plus column and the fair value I guess is €1.05bn.

The FY loss is because of strong Yen and lower than expected TV sales. The FY forecast for TV sales was reduced by 2m.

In that vein, Sony are restructuring their TV unit and farming out production of low end to Foxcon, medium will be made in China and the top end along with emerging will stay in Japan. Going to Foxcon is a big deal because companies like Apple have been doing it for years and making vast profits based on cheaper production values. Sony can't compete with Samsung, not if they keep production in Japan for mid to low end TVs, something has to give.

The important thing is that Sir Howard started the synergy, Idei destroyed Ohga's legacy and Sir Howard has been rebuilding it ever since, but he doesn't seem to have the energy or inspiration to do it. Kaz had better be up to it. Personally I would consider investing in Sony on the basis that Kaz will turn them around. He has to.
 

spwolf

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bigtroyjon said:
They have an even amount of expenses/revenue when it comes to the dollar so the USD falling doesn't harm their profits. Euro hurts but the biggest reason for the loss was the restructuring of the tv division.





Both of those add up to $351 million and they lost $350 million. TV's are their biggest issue by far.

huh?

sony clearly states that they revised their FY2011 forecast from JULY numbers due to Yen appreciation which impacted it (since July 2011) by 832 million USD. Thats only from July.

Then next one is 320 million usd loss due to impact of floods in Thailand (damages to factories, loss of production, etc).

Thats only in Q2 revised.

In Q1, they showed how yen appreciation over Q1 2010 has cost them 1,2 billion USD.

So far in 1H 2011, they lost $2 billion on Yen appreciation and 320 million on thai floods.

Which means they would have made more than $1.1 billion for 2011 if not for high yen and floods.

And thats only compared to 2010 when yen was 92 (77 now)... back in 2007, yen was at 126 which was really favourable for exports and they would have made billions.

Main problem of Japanese companies right now, especially those that still have high manufacturing bases in Japan while they export heavily to US and Europe, like Panasonic and Sony, is Yen.

It is not 360, or Movies or this or that, it is yen.

Sony is company that globally sells up to $100 billion of goods. Now Yen changes from 127 to 77 since 2007. Which means that on all of their Japanese exports, r&d, etc, etc, Sony gets 40% less money on sale in non-Japanese markets.

This is why BOJ is trying to intervene and this is why Japanise goverment is trying to setup public fund to reorganize all of the TV production into one roof for all the major TV suppliers - they dont want to lose production bases (jobs).

It is the same problem that Toyota has, with 50% of their production in Japan being exported, and now getting 40% less revenue on it.

On the other hand Samsung/Hyundai/Kia's KRW dropped in value 25% since 2006-2008,and hence those companies now gain 25% more on everything they export.

So Sony TV is now automatically 40% more expensive while Samsung's is 25% cheaper.

Sony and rest of the Japanese manufacturing industry has a lot bigger problem in high strenght of Yen than in anything else. If Japan doesnt solve that issue soon, look at not only moving even more of production to outside of japan, but also a lot of their 70,000 Japanese workforce moved from there as well. Workforce is huge cost burden and due to high yen, it is now 40% more expensive than in 2007 (all 70,000 of them in Japan).
 

bigtroyjon

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You are confusing revenue and profit. Sony buys products and components in dollars, enough to offset their revenue. While the revenue goes down when the yen appreciates against the dollar, their costs also go down which makes the profit close to neutral.

Yen appreciation is a factor in their losses but it's only one part of the puzzle. The floods are another factor but the biggest thing that Sony themselves has mentioned is the slowdown in TV sales combined with restructuring costs that are causing the unit to lose over 2 billion for the fiscal year.
 

jcm

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There is zero chance Sony will sell or spinoff Pictures. They're trying to build the network business. Getting rid of their content generating unit (which also happens to be profitable every single year) would be incredibly stupid.

Elios83 said:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...esign-as-ceo-by-march-new-york-post-says.html

Seems like Howard Stringer will step down in March, at the end of the fiscal year.
Hirai is “widely believed” to become Stringer’s successor according to the article, he also announced the latest fiscal results discussed in this thread to the investors.

Nothing surprising, probably Stringer hoped to go out with the company returning to profit, that won't be the case.
Will Hirai be able to fix Sony as a whole just like he fixed the gaming division and made PS3 a success with a huge comeback? Time will tell.

He leaves behind quite a legacy.

 

Opiate

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jcm said:
There is zero chance Sony will sell or spinoff Pictures. They're trying to build the network business. Getting rid of their content generating unit (which also happens to be profitable every single year) would be incredibly stupid.

Sure, it's just not clear what they would sell off if they're unable to stem the bleeding in short order. They were supposed to have returned to profitability literally years ago. Their long term debt is substantial and liquidity continues to diminish.

Selling off TVs is possible, but the returns on investment would be terrible. They'd be selling their assets at what is likely the very lowest value they've been in decades, adjusted for inflation. Selling the games division would yield similar problems.

Selling the music and film divisions would deprive them of content, as you say, but also produce significantly more robust returns on investment.

Sony Ericsson might be a possibility, but they seem to have just doubled down on the division.

I'm not saying you're wrong, again. I'm just pointing out that it isn't obvious what Sony should jettison if their fortunes don't turn around soon.
 

M.D

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Opiate said:
Sure, it's just not clear what they would sell off if they're unable to stem the bleeding in short order. They were supposed to have returned to profitability literally years ago. Their long term debt is substantial and liquidity continues to diminish.

Selling off TVs is possible, but the returns on investment would be terrible. They'd be selling their assets at what is likely the very lowest value they've been in decades, adjusted for inflation. Selling the games division would yield similar problems.

Selling the music and film divisions would deprive them of content, as you say, but also produce significantly more robust returns on investment.

Sony Ericsson might be a possibility, but they seem to have just doubled down on the division.

I'm not saying you're wrong, again. I'm just pointing out that it isn't obvious what Sony should jettison if their fortunes don't turn around soon.

So they'd sell the divisions that consistently made them money over the years so they can keep the divisions that made them bleed money over so many years in hope that some day they will be able to turn a profit with those divisions?
 

AranhaHunter

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zomgbbqftw said:
Sony are a company that has missed too many boats and I would now not rate them as investment grade.

I'm not even sure Kaz will fix anything when he takes over as CEO, the corporate culture at Sony is not conducive to being focussed and early to a market where speed and efficiency matter more than anything else.

zomgbbqftw said:
Personally I would consider investing in Sony on the basis that Kaz will turn them around. He has to.

Make up your mind :p

Kinda hard to invest on Sony just on the basis of Kaz alone. He did a decent job at SCE, but I would argue that Yoshida has done a better job as he has been expanding (acquiring studios) and getting exclusive contents from 3rd parties (DLC mostly).
 

jcm

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Opiate said:
Sure, it's just not clear what they would sell off if they're unable to stem the bleeding in short order. They were supposed to have returned to profitability literally years ago. Their long term debt is substantial and liquidity continues to diminish.

Selling off TVs is possible, but the returns on investment would be terrible. They'd be selling their assets at what is likely the very lowest value they've been in decades, adjusted for inflation. Selling the games division would yield similar problems.

Selling the music and film divisions would deprive them of content, as you say, but also produce significantly more robust returns on investment.

Sony Ericsson might be a possibility, but they seem to have just doubled down on the division.

I'm not saying you're wrong, again. I'm just pointing out that it isn't obvious what Sony should jettison if their fortunes don't turn around soon.

I think if Sony winds up in the position of needing to raise money Financial Services will be the one to go. It's probably worth more than Pictures anyway, and isn't strategically important.

Selling anything but Financial Services (or maybe PCs?) seems like burning the furniture to me.
 
Aug 27, 2009
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flyinpiranha said:
And for the record, I don't disagree that it also about services. But there needs to be a way to access them and they want the control of that. To say that it's just about services at this point doesn't make any sense.

Not all of them do. Valve doesn't, for instance, and even Microsoft seems to be more interested in controlling the software platform than hardware itself. Xbox is the only big exception to that, for now.
 

zomgbbqftw

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Jan 21, 2011
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AranhaHunter said:
Make up your mind :p

Kinda hard to invest on Sony just on the basis of Kaz alone. He did a decent job at SCE, but I would argue that Yoshida has done a better job as he has been expanding (acquiring studios) and getting exclusive contents from 3rd parties (DLC mostly).

I would personally make an investment in Sony but I wouldn't recommend it for our clients who were looking at medium risk or below.
 

lunchwithyuzo

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Jun 20, 2010
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Takao said:
Nintendo's never sold hardware at a loss (well, until the 3DS price collapse), and they had the incredibly lucrative handheld market all to themselves.
They sold GameCube for a loss at launch and in 2003 when it went to $99.
 

Takao

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We haven't had a thread on this junk in like a week and a half (new record?), but I don't feel like making a thread to mock it, so I'll just leave it here:

Examiner.com blames Sony's predicted annual loss on the launch of the Vita (with 3DS being Nintendo's culprit), and says the handheld market is in trouble thanks to "throw away" games like Angry Birds. Writer mentions how successful Angry Birds has been, and mentions that's largely due to it being free, or 99 cents. Neglects to mention how successful many $30-$40 handheld games are, but that won't serve the agenda. To be fair, it isn't all doom and gloom as there are some titles that will push them to success, it's just that they're ticking time bombs.

lunchwithyuzo said:
They sold GameCube for a loss at launch and in 2003 when it went to $99.

GC bomba sale isn't surprising, but I wasn't aware of their launch loss.
 

teepo

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Opiate said:
To an extent, but another reason they're trying to get out of it is that their film business is actually worth something.

Electronics are high risk, high reward. Film is low risk, low reward. While the electronics departments are struggling, it makes sense to sell off a low reward but highly reliable segments that also has high revenue, like film -- because you can actually get a strong return on it.

this is the first time i've heard anyone attempt to label the film industry as being low risk, especially when the entire industry is built on shared contracts between individuals and parties to alleviate any loses through risk-sharing. an entire company or even producer can go broke through one bad decision.
 

NavNucST3

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teepo said:
this is the first time i've heard anyone attempt to label the film industry as being low risk, especially when the entire industry is built on shared contracts between individuals and parties to alleviate any loses through risk-sharing. an entire company or even producer can go broke through one bad decision.

While I don't entirely disagree with you there is a reason that the accountants are considered the most talented people in Hollywood.
 

lunchwithyuzo

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Jun 20, 2010
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Takao said:
GC bomba sale isn't surprising, but I wasn't aware of their launch loss.
I remember hearing it was a $20 or so loss per unit, and was immediately made up with a game purchase. Considering the technology they stuffed in that little thing in 2001 for $199, it's still kind of amazing.
 

iamshadowlark

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Jun 22, 2011
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StevieP said:
What's the measurement stick?
Consoles sold, 338m(sony) to 253m(nintendo). If you include handhelds the scale obviously goes into nintendos favor, considering the monopoly they enjoyed in that market.
 

Parmenides

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donny2112 said:
It's not Sony saying it. It's Parmenides.That's probably Parmenides slant on it, yes.
Nintendo Announces First Half FY 2011 Financial Results

Parmenides said:
-Nintendo Co.,the world's largest maker of handheld video-game players,today reported its consolidated financial results for the six-month period ended September 30,2011.

iamshadowlark said:
I don't know if you are trolling or not but it is true.
Of course,it is true.

goomba said:
How do Sony get away with the "worlds largest console maker " title when they have sold far less than the Wii ?.
StevieP said:
What's the measurement stick?
Sales (Shipments) in the home console business.Over the last five years,Sony has kept alive the PS2 and the PS3 in two different market niches.







Code:
2011 YTD Hardware Sales (Sell-in numbers)

      (Ja-Mr)11   (Ap-Jn)11    (Jl-Sp)11    (Oc-Dc)11    YTD       


PS3      2.1        1.8          3.7           -         7.6       

360      2.7        1.7          2.3           -         6.7       

Wii      1.36       1.56         1.79          -         4.71      

PS2      1.2        1.4          1.2           -         3.8      

--------------------------------------------------------------
Sony     3.3        3.2          4.9           -         11.4     

MS       2.7        1.7          2.3           -         6.7 

N        1.36       1.56         1.79          -         4.71
 

TOT      7.36       6.46         8.99          -         22.81 

(Unit: Million )
 

Psychotext

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So "world's largest home console maker" then surely? (Assuming Nintendo is bigger overall).

That aside, it's a little odd that you chose to use

Sony Corporation,the world's largest game console maker,announced its consolidated results for the second quarter ended September 30, 2011 (July 1, 2011 to September 30, 2011)

instead of Sony's own

Sony Corporation today announced its consolidated results for the second quarter ended September 30, 2011 (July 1, 2011 to September 30, 2011).
I mean, you specifically had to add that in instead of "today".
 

Indyana

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Parmenides said:
Sales (Shipments) in the home console business.Over the last five years,Sony has kept alive the PS2 and the PS3 in two different market niches.
So you can write home consoles but choose against it.
Parmenides said:
-Nintendo Co.,the world's largest game console maker, today reported its consolidated financial results for the six-month period ended September 30,2011.
See, it works here too.
 

spwolf

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bigtroyjon said:
You are confusing revenue and profit. Sony buys products and components in dollars, enough to offset their revenue. While the revenue goes down when the yen appreciates against the dollar, their costs also go down which makes the profit close to neutral.

Yen appreciation is a factor in their losses but it's only one part of the puzzle. The floods are another factor but the biggest thing that Sony themselves has mentioned is the slowdown in TV sales combined with restructuring costs that are causing the unit to lose over 2 billion for the fiscal year.

well it would help if you would actually read their financials... in 2011, vs 2010, they are estimating >2 billion reduction in profits due to 15% higher Yen (92 vs 77). Now in 2006, Yen was 126... under those terms, Sony would have made >5 billion and probably capture much large share of TV market due to lower pricing possibilities.

While they are able to offset high yen partially (their overall sales are 80 billion, so it is not like they are losing 15% of that due to yen being 15% higher), it is still not enough.

Restructuring costs are one time write-off that will make them more competitive in the future. High yen is a problem that has cost them >10 billion in past 3 years In Profits, and it is not going away.


In any case, for me and most of you, most important thing should be that Sony has upped their R&D from last year, and this year they will spend almost $6 billion on R&D. It is just an question of focusing that properly, and Kaz seems capable of doing so.
 

bigtroyjon

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spwolf said:
well it would help if you would actually read their financials... in 2011, vs 2010, they are estimating >2 billion reduction in profits due to 15% higher Yen (92 vs 77).

What are you reading?
This is what Sony said in the earnings release:
page10 said:
Consolidated operating income is expected to be approximately 65 billion yen below the July forecast due to unfavorable foreign exchange rates, primarily affecting the CPS and PDS segments.

65 billion yen accounts for 36% of the drop in the forecast and is quite a bit less than $2billion. Like I said, it is a factor but it's not the only thing going wrong at the moment and it's also not the only thing causing them to lose money.
spwolf said:
High yen is a problem that has cost them >10 billion in past 3 years In Profits, and it is not going away.
Once again, revenue does not equal profit. They have worked over the years to help make sure that when the yen strengthens against the dollar, drops in their expenses happen alongside the drops in revenue. You know what expenses are right?
 

yurinka

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Psychotext said:
So "world's largest home console maker" then surely? (Assuming Nintendo is bigger overall).
Well, it make sense to say it's Sony because :
-Is the company who sold more home consoles in gaming history (PS1+PS2+PS3 LTD WW).
-Is the company who sold more home consoles since this gen started (PS3 LTD + PS2 sales since this gen started WW).
-Made the best selling home console ever (PS2 LTD WW)
-Made the best selling home console in the market (PS2 LTD WW)

Would make sense to say it's Nintendo if :
-We only count single home console sales since this gen started (PS2 LTD WW > Wii LTD WW, but in this case we only would count Wii LTD WW vs PS2 from gen start to now WW)
-We add the handhelds to the equation removing the 'home' world and count handheld as consoles too, both in this gen or LTD WW