playsaves3
Member
yeah these comments are ridiculous no chance getting zen 5 to work with ps5 games would be harder than getting zen 2 to work with jaguar based ps4 games. Do they think the zen 8 ps6 won’t play ps5 games.
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Rumor: PS5 Pro Codenamed "Trinity" targeting Late 2024 (some alleged specs leaked)
- Thread starter MisterXDTV
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- Rumor Platform
playsaves3
Member
Not when this will be a $600+ console on top of buying a disc drive
Brigandier
Member
I'm looking forward to seeing what the RT secret sauce is that Mark Cerny patented.
MisterXDTV
Member
People here are jumping to conclusions based on nothing: all we know is that PS5 Pro will have a meaningful GPU Upgrade and a memory bandwidth upgrade with an RT Sony patent
We don't know the full specs and neither the price...
We don't know the full specs and neither the price...
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Brigandier
Member
Go_Ly_Dow
Member
Yes, but its fun to guess/speculate.
playsaves3
Member
The thing is if they are really sticking with zen 2 the gpu should be a bigger jump and they should also be increasing the memory but that also isn’t a
hinch7
Member
If I had to guess I'd probably call it down to cost savings. Zen 2 in 4N would be tiny and more die space can be allocated towards the GPU. So hypothetically they could get it near the same size APU as current PS5's SKU's but being on 4N would cost more; being on a more advanced node. Though BOM costs shouldn't even cost that much more than a regular PS5.
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Whitecrow
Banned
It's all about saving milliseconds when executing code.
It's hard to explain if you're not a programmer, but basically, one single task can be coded and achieved in more than one way, and some ways will be faster in certain situations, and slower in others.
Here, you could, for example, start with an algorythm that serves for all cases, but if you wanna optimize, you separate all possible scenarios on which the algorythm will be executed, and try to adapt various solutions for each scenario.
And also, for any given task, it's always if you speak as directly as possible to the hardware (aka coding to the metal) and avoid as much "intermediaries" as possible, as each intermediary will add execution time.
That's why it's important to know the hardware your game will run on. Optimizations is about resolving puzzles, and the more pieces you have, the better.
If you are all the time in control of all the hardware timings (retrieve data from the disk, upload textures to gpu memory...) and you know how much time is left for your code to run, you can then select wich type of code you can write, being it always a balance between complexity, efficiency, and outcome.
When you have to write code, the easiest and fastest way is to write bad but functional code. But functional is not enough if you want to increase fps as much as possible. You want it to be efficient and save as much processing time as you can. And that is a lot more difficult. And knowing your hardware helps inmensely, by
letting you know what are your real possibilities.
Also, think that any coding trick, even if it's small, and only saves a tiny fraction of a second, can save a lot more if that code runs a lot of times in a small timeframe. Because in optimization, we are talking about small saves (smaller than milliseconds), but a hell lot of them.
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playsaves3
Member
3nm also isn’t impossible if this thing is above $600
playsaves3
Member
Do you know if 3nm is off the table maybe that’s what it takes to get zen 5
do you think the gpu clock in ps5 pro will be only 2Ghz?I have tried to warn people to keep expectations in check
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Go_Ly_Dow
Member
That's if Rockstar apply the extra effort and make use of the extra power.
Wooxsvan
Member
ya iv been asking for a true pro console as well. but its pretty obvious they are doing what that did last time and keeping it lower cost and therefore lower performance. i'll just continue to buy games on PC. oh well.
ChiefDada
Gold Member
What the hell are you talking about? PS5 Pro would have better rt than RDNA2.
hinch7
Member
Unlikely. Cutting edge nodes are fairly expensive per wafer and 4/5nm are going to way more cost effective.
playsaves3
Member
I ask cause the expected price is anywhere from $600 minimum to $700 maximum and you would still have to get the disc drive on top so I wondered if it could fit in the budget.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
I don't see that happening. I can't even see it being more than $550. My guesstimate is currently at $500 without a disc drive. I don't know where you are getting $600 from.. everything we are hearing about it suggests they are trying to keep it within that $500 envelope.
Threads like these, tend to be speculation threads, we guess, argue and compare potential specs and the reasons they can go with one spec over another. I am sure everyone here knows these are all just rumors and nothing is confirmed.
Why?
The GPU is already seeing a near 2x boost in performance. And around a 30% boost in memory bandwidth. We also have a minimum 2x+ RT core performance boost, which when coupled with the increase in cores ultimately translates to over 3x the RT performance compared to the OG PS5. Then we have dedicated AI hardware, meaning the PS5pro uses the same data used for FSR2/3 but produces something similar in quality and performance to DLSS.
Thats not enough? They do not need more RAM because they are not changing anything about the core PS5 game, the assets used are still going to be the same (hence taking up the same amount of space in RAM) only thing they are doing is running at a higher base resolution, which is also similar to the OG PS5. Yes, OG PS5 quality mode is going to be the same as the PS5 Pro, just that the PS5 Pro would be running it at 60fps and at whatever the upper limit of its native base rez is before reconstruction. The only thing they need to add for that to happen is bandwidth... see why there is aa bandwidth boost right?
Devs are going to probably need to do very very little to take advantage the PS5 Pro.
Thats enough for a $100-$150 markup over the OG PS5.
Absolutely not. I even had a hard time believing 4nm would be on the table. I don't think you realize that in the current market space, the most advanced process node, is generally prohibitively more expensive than the node before it. Especially in the first year or two of that process's availability.
MisterXDTV
Member
No problem with speculations about hardware, but when I read: "PS5 Pro is gonna be $700" I can only laugh....
playsaves3
Member
It’s gonna be $600+ by default just because of the current prices $500 is straight up impossible unless they want to permanently cannablaize the sales of the slim. The gpu isn’t a 2x increase it’s saying a %60 increase which is absolutely not enough the rt upgrade is the only good thing here. I was expecting a 2-2.5x gpu upgrade especially when they aren’t upgrading anything else about the system
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Excuse me... so you really believe, that by September 2024, which is around when the PS5pro may be launching, the PS5 OG is still going to cost $450 without a disc drive? Or you think they are still going to be bundling Spiderman/COD and selling it with a disc drive for $500?
Think about it, $70 game + $80 disc drive. That's the value added to the $500 bundled SKU. $150. If you subtract that from the $500 bundled SKU, you get $350. And you REALLY think, a PS5 is/should be costing $450 right now?
No. I believe that even at that $450 digital SKU, Sony is making a sizeable profit margin, and that is only priced like that because of the time of the year its being launched. I expect that SKU to drop in price to $399 as early as March next year, and those $500 bundled SKUs to disappear.
So no, they are not selling a PS5ppro for $700. And a $500 PS5pro would not cannibalize sales of a $400 PS5, which would likely even come bundled with a game.
And again, I get you are free to expect whatever you want to expect, but this isn't some sort of fantasy, just ask yourself a simple question. What are they trying to do with the PS5ppro, and work it out from there. You do not need 2.5x the GPU power to take a game running 1440p/1800p @40fps to 60fps. Get it?
playsaves3
Member
It’s the gpu increase the pro had. I said 700$ to show the upper limit it would be I don’t actually expect $700 I’m fully expecting $600 (and 650 isn’t off the table in my view) you have immense cope if you think it will be $500. You are right about one thing these specs do not justify a lick over $500 so if these are really the specs it better not be more than $500
Mr.Phoenix
Member
You say the strangest things... makes me now wonder just how much you know about this stuff.
The bolded part, sony going for $500'ish is just them trying to move units and probably not want to have a $600 box on the market. But if they came out and said thing was $600, with the specs released, its more than worth it.
Some perspective, the 7700XT, a GPU with less CU, less RAM, less bandwidth, cost $450. I would think a CPU, 4GB of RAM more, a controller a 1TB SSD...etc would all be well worth more than $50 - $150 on top of that won't you say?
Anyways yeah, I think $500. Without a disc drive. And probably like $550 with a disc drive if they sell such a bundle, which I doubt they will.
playsaves3
Member
Your comparing the price of a gpu that will be almost 2 years old when this comes out it won’t be a new gpu. Your point would make sense if the pro came out this year
Mr.Phoenix
Member
You dont need to exaggerate to make your point and if you ever find yourself doing that, then you should know that you probably need to stop making said point.
Yes, I am comparing the price of a GPU that would be just over 1 year old (not 2, it was released in September this year) to a pro releasing next year, that would as I said, have more RAM, more GPU cores, an AI co-processor, an SSD, a controller and a CPU all in the ebox. Even if at that point, the 7700XT retails for $350 instead of $450... you still cannot compare the value of the PS5 pro over it.
The point is, it's kinda stupid to be saying that the PS5pro as is, or as rumored to be isn't worth anything over $500. That shows a gross ignorance of what $500 can actually get you.
Anyway, gonna resign from this back-and-forth with you. We can just agree to disagree.
Loxus
Member
Zen wasn't ready, it's that simple.
Mark Cerny said in Road to PS5, that AMD puts in years to make their CPU backwards compatible.
"Second, the PlayStation 5 and GPU are backwards compatible with PlayStation 4.
What does that mean?
One way you can achieve backwards compatibility is to put the previous consoles chipset in the new console like we did with some PlayStation 3s.
But that's of course extremely expensive.
A better way is to incorporate any differences in the previous consoles logic into the new consoles custom chips.
Meaning that even as the technology evolves, the logic and feature set that PlayStation 4 and PlayStation 4 Pro titles rely on are still available in backwards compatibility modes.
One advantage of this strategy is that once backwards compatibility is in the console it's in.
If not, as if a cost down will remove backwards compatibility like it did on PlayStation 3. Achieving this unification of functionality took years of efforts by AMD, as any roadmap advancement creates a potential divergence in logic. Running PS4 and PS4 titles at boosted frequencies has also added complexity the boost is truly massive this time around and some game code just can't handle it testing has to be done on the title by title basis."
With that and what he said in the DF article.
"All of the game logic created for Jaguar CPUs works properly on Zen 2 CPUs, but the timing of execution of instructions can be substantially different," Mark Cerny tells us. "We worked to AMD to customise our particular Zen 2 cores; they have modes in which they can more closely approximate Jaguar timing. We're keeping that in our back pocket, so to speak, as we proceed with the backwards compatibility work."
The only thing that needs to be done, is the timings. And we all know how the PS5,s CPU clocks work in BC mode.
Don't tell me you think Mark Cerny is wrong in what he said?
Mr.Phoenix
Member
I am not talking about 2020. Its obvious that then, Zen 4 wasn't ready.Zen wasn't ready, it's that simple.
Mark Cerny said in Road to PS5, that AMD puts in years to make their CPU backwards compatible.
"Second, the PlayStation 5 and GPU are backwards compatible with PlayStation 4.
What does that mean?
One way you can achieve backwards compatibility is to put the previous consoles chipset in the new console like we did with some PlayStation 3s.
But that's of course extremely expensive.
A better way is to incorporate any differences in the previous consoles logic into the new consoles custom chips.
Meaning that even as the technology evolves, the logic and feature set that PlayStation 4 and PlayStation 4 Pro titles rely on are still available in backwards compatibility modes.
One advantage of this strategy is that once backwards compatibility is in the console it's in.
If not, as if a cost down will remove backwards compatibility like it did on PlayStation 3. Achieving this unification of functionality took years of efforts by AMD, as any roadmap advancement creates a potential divergence in logic. Running PS4 and PS4 titles at boosted frequencies has also added complexity the boost is truly massive this time around and some game code just can't handle it testing has to be done on the title by title basis."
With that and what he said in the DF article.
"All of the game logic created for Jaguar CPUs works properly on Zen 2 CPUs, but the timing of execution of instructions can be substantially different," Mark Cerny tells us. "We worked to AMD to customise our particular Zen 2 cores; they have modes in which they can more closely approximate Jaguar timing. We're keeping that in our back pocket, so to speak, as we proceed with the backwards compatibility work."
The only thing that needs to be done, is the timings. And we all know how the PS5,s CPU clocks work in BC mode.
Don't tell me you think Mark Cerny is wrong in what he said?
We are talking about a PS5pro.
And I am going to ask you a simple question.
If during their internal testing, they find out that they can get zen2 up to around 4.4/4.5Ghz reliably, and that was enough to push all the games they tested to 60fps in quality mode and anywhere between 100-120fps in performance mode. And also found that they could do the same thing with Zen 4 and get even more performance while running at as little as 4Ghz, but that zen 4 would cost them more per chip.
What option do you think they go with?
Because to me this is simple. If with Zen4, they get the performance and spend the same or less than they would with a Zen2 chip, then they would use Zen4. If we see Zen2 in it, then it means it was cheaper and it would also meet their performance targets.
Brigandier
Member
That GPU in 6-9 months time will only be a year old at most lol it is a new GPU???
Even next September which is a good estimate for the PS5 Pro release period that GPU is still going to be $350-400 minimum.
That GPU alone even with a price cut will be over 2/3 of the price that the pro will cost, You also need to realise that this console GPU will be heavily customised to run in a console which all affect price, It's only Sony buying from AMD in bulk which will allow for a PS5 Pro to stay under the $500 mark, Sony are not stupid they know what happened last time there was a $599 moment.
Me personally if the specs are really good and it's a clear upgrade like the PS4 Pro was I'd pay $599 but it wouldn't entice enough sales and I'm sure many would agree.
rnlval
Member
From post https://www.neogaf.com/threads/ps5-...itional-details.1664563/page-8#post-268710418
-------
14 teraflops of RDNA 3 with dedicated RT intersect, traversal, and ML upscaling hardware is far more powerful than a 7700xt. Maybe if I use the DF example to translate RT performance to teraflops:
Using this method, you can roughly estimate PS5 Pro to be ~30 TF RDNA 2 with RT workload vs 10TF RDNA 2 for base PS5.
----------------------
AMD's RDNA 2 RT is aging and it does not completely accelerate BVH workloads. MSFT's marketing is crap.
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ChiefDada
Gold Member
This has nothing to do with Xbox marketing they are estimating how many RDNA 2 teraflops it would take to perform the peak hypothetical performance of RDNA 2 ray accelerators . What exactly aren't you understanding?
Perrott
Gold Member
They didn't have to put the effort into making Red Dead Redemption 2 run at a native 4K resolution on Xbox One X (the most niche last-gen SKU of all) back then, especially given the marketing partnership with Sony for that title, but they did.
I say they should get hypedI have tried to warn people to keep expectations in check
Because soon they will have a beast of a handheld to play GTA6 on the toilet
playsaves3
Member
The pro isn’t coming before November… September is when I expect a reveal if anything
Brigandier
Member
Cool a whopping 2 months later it changes nothing else of what I said.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
It "should" get to a point that the avg console game should be able to do 4k/60/RT based on brute force alone with new consoles. That'll be a plus for gamers as res and frames have steadily increased since the 3D PS1/Saturn/N64 era.
Of course that assumes devs dont gun for 8k/uber RT v3.0/120+ fps doing the 'ol resource hoggo-thon.
Of course that assumes devs dont gun for 8k/uber RT v3.0/120+ fps doing the 'ol resource hoggo-thon.
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Again you're bringing hypothetical assumptions based on rudimentary calculations. Real-world gaming performance does not scale like that, modern games especially rt benchmarks throttle the zen2 architecture and leave a massive performance delta.
A zen4c upgrade would be a massive improvement and as locked 30fps game have a framerate exceeding said lock most times 60fps would be very achievable with proper optimization.
Zathalus
Member
A ton of those performance issues are due to the high latency incurred by GDDR vs regular RAM. The high latency combined with the tiny cache on Zen 2 mobile leads to the rather large performance deficit compared to a regular Zen 2 CPU.Again you're bringing hypothetical assumptions based on rudimentary calculations. Real-world gaming performance does not scale like that, modern games especially rt benchmarks throttle the zen2 architecture and leave a massive performance delta.
A zen4c upgrade would be a massive improvement and as locked 30fps game have a framerate exceeding said lock most times 60fps would be very achievable with proper optimization.
Zen4c will face the exact same latency issues, and unless Sony is going to make the SOC really expensive, will have limited cache as well.
rnlval
Member
Fact: RDNA 2 RT is aging.
nordique
Member
Ah my bad regarding the OG
I think it was for the 360 *slim* motherboard code name where I remembered that
Trinity / Valhalla - Free60 Wiki
free60.org
The Xbox 360's original code name was a nod to The Matrix
Fun facts Microsoft’s home consoles represent a blind spot in my video game knowledge. For one reason or another, I’ve...
www.destructoid.com
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TheRedRiders
Member
All GPU architectures are aging - RTX 30 series is also aging poorly because of VRAM limitations which is more important that "rAy tRacINg".
vivftp
Member
This would never happen with a mid gen refresh. Why? Because just 4 years later they will have to market the PS6 at a mainstream price and it will have to be a notable upgrade over the PS5 and the PS5 Pro. Going too high on the mid gen refresh would only be kicking themselves in the balls when the next gen rolls around
I would say the 3090/3090ti are aging damn well.
TheRedRiders
Member
Agreed - the others however....
Proelite
Member
I just want to add that the supplemented specs, not Henderson's, is a good guess but fake as the number of ROPs is divisible by 3, indicating 3 Shader Engines and yet the number of compute isn't. Rookie mistake.
Also Kepler debunked it too as others have mentioned.
Also Kepler debunked it too as others have mentioned.
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Also the number of CUs seems to be 60 and not 54 according to Kepler and obviously the 2GHz thing for the GPU didn't make any sense given that the GPU is running at 2.23GHz in PS5.
60CUs at 2.23GHz would yield 17.1 Teraflops (double that with dual issue).
At 2.5GHz it would be 19.2Teraflops.
Anyway I think the focus will be on ray tracing and AI based upscaling.
DarthPutin
Member
Resetera is discussing Jeff Grubb information, which largerly confirms Tom Henderson it seems.
Tiago Rodrigues
Member
Seems like a great upgrade tbh. That price also seems to be...something. 600€ here we go (if not more)
Bluntman
Member
I find some of the rumors very strange tbh. TLDR: I don't think RDNA 3 or more dedicated HW for RT is likely.
First:
There are rumours of Zen 2 cores with higher clock speeds, which could be realistic, but the RDNA 3 GPU not so much. There is a significant operational difference between RDNA 2 and 3, given that the latter supports dual-issue processing while the former does not. This is the kind of difference that requires a different optimisation on the shaders and shader compiler side, which would not be very beneficial for developers. While on a PC this is not really a problem, on a console it is important to take into account that the devs optimize differently. Shaders can be shipped in binary, devs can even perform assembly-level modifications. However, while the slightly different GCN design of the PS4 and PS4 Pro did not require different optimisation, this is not the case with RDNA 2 and 3, which require very different binaries for the dual-issue capabilities, effectively doubling the work required in terms of optimisation.
Second:
It is also difficult to interpret the information that the PS5 Pro gets a dedicated HW unit for processing some steps related to ray tracing (rumor is HW for traversal). This is very strange because Sony’s graphics API already supports fully programmable traversal, thus providing free programmability on a per object basis. A dedicated unit for traversal would be a step back, as programmability itself would be lost. Not to mention that the RDNA 3 dual-issue mode is exactly for distributing tasks related to RT to free FP32 units. So the current rumors describe the upcoming hardware in such a way that it bears the extra transistor cost of the dual-issue construction of RDNA 3, while it gets a dedicated HW for the task most frequently distributed in dual-issue mode.
First:
There are rumours of Zen 2 cores with higher clock speeds, which could be realistic, but the RDNA 3 GPU not so much. There is a significant operational difference between RDNA 2 and 3, given that the latter supports dual-issue processing while the former does not. This is the kind of difference that requires a different optimisation on the shaders and shader compiler side, which would not be very beneficial for developers. While on a PC this is not really a problem, on a console it is important to take into account that the devs optimize differently. Shaders can be shipped in binary, devs can even perform assembly-level modifications. However, while the slightly different GCN design of the PS4 and PS4 Pro did not require different optimisation, this is not the case with RDNA 2 and 3, which require very different binaries for the dual-issue capabilities, effectively doubling the work required in terms of optimisation.
Second:
It is also difficult to interpret the information that the PS5 Pro gets a dedicated HW unit for processing some steps related to ray tracing (rumor is HW for traversal). This is very strange because Sony’s graphics API already supports fully programmable traversal, thus providing free programmability on a per object basis. A dedicated unit for traversal would be a step back, as programmability itself would be lost. Not to mention that the RDNA 3 dual-issue mode is exactly for distributing tasks related to RT to free FP32 units. So the current rumors describe the upcoming hardware in such a way that it bears the extra transistor cost of the dual-issue construction of RDNA 3, while it gets a dedicated HW for the task most frequently distributed in dual-issue mode.
JMZ555
Member
So with a rough best guess of end of 2024 I think after I complete FF7 Rebirth I will my sell my PS5 and wait for the Pro.
Factions was the only other game that would be a must play for me and now I know its not coming.
After FF7 rebirth I can't see another big AAA game that is a must play for me.
Anything towards the end of 2024 I'd be happy to wait to play better version on a pro console.
I do have a gaming PC though.
Factions was the only other game that would be a must play for me and now I know its not coming.
After FF7 rebirth I can't see another big AAA game that is a must play for me.
Anything towards the end of 2024 I'd be happy to wait to play better version on a pro console.
I do have a gaming PC though.
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