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REPLACED Devs: Microsoft Partnership Has No Cons “They Actually Care About the Indie Market”

elliot5

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You are kind of trying to misconsture the guys pount there

"it's going to get worse for 3rd party publishers on xbox unless MS pay them to release on gamepass

might make it even easier for Sony to get more exclusives"

Then you use this thread where an Indie dev is getting funded by MS to release on gamepass as some contradiction. I'm not seeing it to be honest.
Counterpoint: Death's Door
 

Fredrik

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Ask the ones that Sony don’t care about, or did you miss that giant thread on here a few weeks ago?




Game Pass gets your game in people’s hands, people that likely never would have bought your game in the first place. Some of them like it so much they buy it using the game pass discount, some of them then buy dlc and microtransactions, and they’ll tell their friends about this game they like, or their friends will see them playing it on Xbox and wonder what it is. People that like the game are then also more likely to buy the devs next game and so on.

It’s why things like free trials of services work. You use it, you like it, you end up paying for it, and you tell people about it who then pay for it too.
Sounds plausible.

It’s just that I never end up buying the games myself. I mostly see it as a window of opportunity to play the limited time games within the year they’re there, if a game is about to get removed I’m thinking it’ll probably pop up again later.

DLC definitely works though, since I’ve payed so little for the game anyway it’s no issue to pay some pocket money to get more out of a game I love.
Buying DLC for a full price release is rare. It feels like I’m taken advantage of, you’d think $60 or $70 would be enough but nope they want $10 for one extra hour and a hat. Slight exaggeration.
 

Outlier

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It looks great, but it reminds of this other game that also pumped Microsoft’s conference, but still hasn’t released.

YES. At first I thought "REPLACED" was this game, after years of silence.

What happened to The Last Night?

Last I remember one of the devs/creator caved the woke crowd, bent the knee, and disappeared.
 

EDMIX

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You think they're not being honest about getting funding and Microsoft helping to improve their marketing reach, or that the potential list of people who will be open to giving their game a try increases?

I mean...you think they'd be honest after all that shit? Think about man...

Would you tell the boss after dat pay check about the REAL issues at the work place that they doing wrong? So...its not saying they don't mean it, simply that I don't expect them to do some massive expose and because they have a bias by default of literally being the ones getting dat "funding" it makes sense to maybe not take what they are saying seriously.

They have skin in the game so to speak.

I don't doubt MS is trying to do right by developers mind you, simply that I don't know if I'd count this as a lot of evidence considering the source.
 

Heisenberg007

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I mean the thread had links full of indies saying Sony are literally no help to them at all, but whatever, I'm not arguing this with you.

Support should be provided to all developers making games for your system, it's as simple as that.
That's literally impossible though, because there are hundreds of indie games published on these console platforms. If you are promoting everyone, you are promoting no one.

Dev says my game is great. Sony thinks it isn't. Then the dev complains Sony doesn't promote his game on the homepage.
 
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reksveks

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That's literally impossible though, because there are hundreds of indie games published on these console platforms. If you are promoting everyone, you are promoting no one.

Dev says my game is great. Sony thinks it isn't. Then the dev complains Sony doesn't promote his game on the homepage.
Some devs was also complaining about
- archaic system that meant that you have to go through 4 platforms, 1 for each region
- the inability to control the time of your individual sales offers aka at launch which Nintendo, Microsoft and Steam allow
- the stupidly long response times to emails

Just trying to ensure we don't think it was that one complaint. It just seems like Sony need to hire up for thier store and also sort out their back-end processes
 

kuncol02

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Post in thread 'UK weekly physical sales: 77% of sales of Metro Exodus Complete Edition were on PS5'
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/uk-w...te-edition-were-on-ps5.1611125/post-263969213

Post in thread 'UK weekly physical sales: 77% of sales of Metro Exodus Complete Edition were on PS5'
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/uk-w...te-edition-were-on-ps5.1611125/post-263970165

Heres the first 2 I found. There’s plenty of them in the UK sales threads but I’m not investing my time looking for them.
It's extra funny when you realize, that reality for indies looks like that:

Sales of almost everything that is not big AAA game (or is promoted by Sony) on PlayStation is terrible in comparison to other platforms. Especially when you realize there is at least two times more PS4 than XOne.
 

Heisenberg007

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Some devs was also complaining about
- archaic system that meant that you have to go through 4 platforms, 1 for each region
- the inability to control the time of your individual sales offers aka at launch which Nintendo, Microsoft and Steam allow
- the stupidly long response times to emails

Just trying to ensure we don't think it was that one complaint. It just seems like Sony need to hire up for thier store and also sort out their back-end processes
The ease of getting your software up on the platforms is a valid complaint. That's something that should be made easier by Sony. No arguments there.
 

Coolwhhip

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Topher

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Context. He wasn't talking about the content of the service, he was talking about what gamepass does for indie devs, so your comment about not having interest in Gamepass is really out of place and looks like a copy paste of the same comments we get every thread.

Touche. I misread his point and so my comment was out of place. I also broke my "don't drink and post" rule so....

Drunk Happy Hour GIF by Saturday Night Live
 
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Warablo

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It's extra funny when you realize, that reality for indies looks like that:

Sales of almost everything that is not big AAA game (or is promoted by Sony) on PlayStation is terrible in comparison to other platforms. Especially when you realize there is at least two times more PS4 than XOne.
That's kinda crazy, especially the market share that Sony has over Microsoft.
 

MOTM

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A "gift from God" would mean I could play any game I wanted whenever I wanted for as long as I wanted. Game Pass is not a "gift from God". Not to me, anyway. If Game Pass is a gift from God for you, then ok, no problem. For me, except for Greedfall, I haven't played a game this year that was included with Game Pass. I want to choose my games. Not have them chosen for me.

Xbox is still lacking. First party games are coming, I know, but games like this don't cut it. Sorry. Still waiting.
Cool story bro.
 
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kingfey

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Yeah it’s awesome.
But I still don’t understand the economics. Is Gamepass essentially like advertising? The more popular Gamepass becomes the more people talk about the upcoming games, the more play them on streams, and with that more games gets sold.

But… more Gamepass subscribers also mean less people left among those who buy games. I’m trying to think of the last time I bought something on Xbox… But I can’t remember.
Its more akin to ads.

You are getting games, you have never heard of. Cris tales is one of the games, I have no idea. But it's coming to gamepass, so I can try it. If I like, I will be a fan of the series.

As for buying, it depends on the person. For me, I buy games, when I need to. Other people are different. They buy games that they like.

If you play ascent on gamepass, and liked it, you will buy it to keep it forever.

Another key aspect is the time duration. This is the most important thing, why games sells on gamepass. 3rd party games stay for 1 year on gamepass. After that 1 year, it will be removed from the service.

Now imagine, the game that you like from gamepass is leaving. Your first though of it, would be buying it. That is how gamepass sells games.
 

Fredrik

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That's kinda crazy, especially the market share that Sony has over Microsoft.
This side of game sales numbers has gone over my head tbh. Someone mentioned in another thread that game sales should sync quite well with hardware numbers unless it’s a game that’s simply unwanted on a certain hardware.
Haven’t thought about that.

If 50% of the owners on PS5 and Xbox Series X|S buy game X then it’ll by default sell more on PS5, for a Xbox version to end up at the same level of a game that interests 50% of all PS5 owner it needs to interest a huge majority of all Xbox owners.

I wonder of Gamepass dominating subscription services is what we’re looking at regarding indies? Isn’t Gamepass almost 10:1 ahead of PS Now?
 

kingfey

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That's kinda crazy, especially the market share that Sony has over Microsoft.
Its all about the mindset.

Sony set up themselves the worst position. They produced high quality games, which made their customers feel like high class. These type of games, are garbage to them.

You will see games like GAAS, MP games are considered shit, according to their customers.

They yell, about the high quality games they get.

These kind of mindset, will make you lose on certain market.

Xbox had MP games on 360, and lost the sight of SP in x1 generation.

Sony is slowly going to that direction. At least returnal was step up for them. Hope they don't go back to the ps4 cycle, and start making games like returnal.
 

Fredrik

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Its more akin to ads.

You are getting games, you have never heard of. Cris tales is one of the games, I have no idea. But it's coming to gamepass, so I can try it. If I like, I will be a fan of the series.

As for buying, it depends on the person. For me, I buy games, when I need to. Other people are different. They buy games that they like.

If you play ascent on gamepass, and liked it, you will buy it to keep it forever.

Another key aspect is the time duration. This is the most important thing, why games sells on gamepass. 3rd party games stay for 1 year on gamepass. After that 1 year, it will be removed from the service.

Now imagine, the game that you like from gamepass is leaving. Your first though of it, would be buying it. That is how gamepass sells games.
After the Steam Deck announcement I think I’ll be in a scenario where I freeload and play a game on Gamepass on Xbox and if it’s fun I’ll buy it on Steam.
MS needs to get Gamepass on Steam asap!
 

kingfey

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This side of game sales numbers has gone over my head tbh. Someone mentioned in another thread that game sales should sync quite well with hardware numbers unless it’s a game that’s simply unwanted on a certain hardware.
Haven’t thought about that.

If 50% of the owners on PS5 and Xbox Series X|S buy game X then it’ll by default sell more on PS5, for a Xbox version to end up at the same level of a game that interests 50% of all PS5 owner it needs to interest a huge majority of all Xbox owners.

I wonder of Gamepass dominating subscription services is what we’re looking at regarding indies? Isn’t Gamepass almost 10:1 ahead of PS Now?
19 countries

PlayStation Now is currently available in 19 countries: Austria. Belgium. Canada.

For gamepass.

As for xcloud
It's available in 22 countries as part of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate membership.Jun 29, 2021
 

kingfey

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After the Steam Deck announcement I think I’ll be in a scenario where I freeload and play a game on Gamepass on Xbox and if it’s fun I’ll buy it on Steam.
MS needs to get Gamepass on Steam asap!
Chill out Satan.

Last time MS made a news like that, Gaffers here had a nuke dropped on them.

This news will light fire on entire internet. All gaming sites, forums, Twitter, YouTube, twitch will go insane from it.

I want a peaceful time, not a flame throwing event.

Though, gamepass steam would be nice👌.
 
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Fredrik

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PlayStation Now is currently available in 19 countries: Austria. Belgium. Canada.

For gamepass.

As for xcloud
It's available in 22 countries as part of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate membership.Jun 29, 2021
I was thinking about the subscription numbers, last I heard Gamepass had 23 million subscribers and PSNow had like 2 or maybe 3.
 
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kourooshkabir

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This side of game sales numbers has gone over my head tbh. Someone mentioned in another thread that game sales should sync quite well with hardware numbers unless it’s a game that’s simply unwanted on a certain hardware.
Haven’t thought about that.

If 50% of the owners on PS5 and Xbox Series X|S buy game X then it’ll by default sell more on PS5, for a Xbox version to end up at the same level of a game that interests 50% of all PS5 owner it needs to interest a huge majority of all Xbox owners.

I wonder of Gamepass dominating subscription services is what we’re looking at regarding indies? Isn’t Gamepass almost 10:1 ahead of PS Now?
no
Each game has its own fan

Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney Trilogy

Switch – 462,395
PC – 245,339
PS4 – 103,235
Xbox – 4,821

Onimusha: Warlords (HD)

PS4 – 207,453
Switch – 111,869
Xbox One – 39,802
PC – 34,331
Switch - 600K

Okami​

PC - 536K
PS3 - 529K
PS4 - 445K
X1 - 121K

PC

  • PC USA: 1.616mil
  • PC EU: 1.570 mil
  • PC Asia: 2.531 mil
  • PC NonJP Total: 5.717 mil
PS4

  • Sony USA: 2.392 mil
  • Sony EU: 1.702 mil
  • Sony Asia: 1.414 mil
  • Sony NonJP Total: 5.509 mil
Japan, PC VS PS4

  • PC Japan: 236k
  • Sony Japan: 3.184mil
Xbox

  • Xbox Base Game 1.789 mil
  • Xbox IB 448k
 

kingfey

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I was thinking about the subscription numbers, last I heard Gamepass had 23 million subscribers and PSNow had like 2 or maybe 3.
Main problem with psnow, is that it's Vita. Both got shat on by Sony. The current suite guys at Sony, have no clue how to utilize these systems.

If they make ps1,ps2 games downloaded, that service would have 10m subs at least.

The gap would grow wider. That 23m gamepass will hit 30m this November. It will worse, as time goes on, and 1st party gets dropped on the service.

I wouldn't be surprised, if gamepass subs will surpass ps+ active monthly users.
 

Fredrik

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no
Each game has its own fan
I know that, I’m thinking about the games where the sales typically gets compared, can’t explain everything with platforms having different fan bases. When it’s a game with a wide appeal it’ll sell more on Playstation. And an indie game with wide appeal that is on PSNow and Gamepass will have more activity on Xbox.
 
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gamepass and indies are a match made in heaven. not that indie games aint good but there was so many i played on gamepass that i would have never bought otherwise. especially when the games start rolling, its easy for indie games to get ignored. eventaully theres so much to play that many good games are ignored. we cant play everything.
 

ShadowNate

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Well, the trailer for the game looks great. The other thing depends on what we observe in the next few years. I'm not taking their word for it.
 
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Bernd Lauert

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It's extra funny when you realize, that reality for indies looks like that:

Sales of almost everything that is not big AAA game (or is promoted by Sony) on PlayStation is terrible in comparison to other platforms. Especially when you realize there is at least two times more PS4 than XOne.
Just further evidence that PS4 is a GTA/COD/Sportsball machine.
 
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yurinka

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Indie team who gets a deal with a platform holder praises that platform holder. What a surprise!

Now ask another team who asked MS to put their game on Game Pass and MS said they won't because they don't like the game.

Just further evidence that PS4 is a GTA/COD/Sportsball machine.
There are over 1500 million games sold for PS4, it has the record of the biggest amount of games sold for a console in gaming history. Sure, the top publishers will have a huge % of that, same as in all other platforms. But a good chunk of that must be for indies.
 
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levyjl1988

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Smart move by Microsoft, establish a platform for indie titles, eventually, these devs will move on to much larger projects and will produce AAA content for Microsoft establishing them as the dominant in the industry. It is the same as Disney taking talent and giving them a AAA budget and we get hits like Loki, Thor Ragnarok, etc.

Sony isn't a platform for indies, their strategy is to make a AAA system, by keeping senior devs on. Different strategies. You want to grow your talent through experimentation and variety. Microsoft is young now, but give it more time and we'll have more variety and hopefully more AAA productions.

Nintendo is still behind, they have their Japanese devs, but at least their games are not riddled with bugs like western releases.
 

Negotiator101

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Smart move by Microsoft, establish a platform for indie titles, eventually, these devs will move on to much larger projects and will produce AAA content for Microsoft establishing them as the dominant in the industry. It is the same as Disney taking talent and giving them a AAA budget and we get hits like Loki, Thor Ragnarok, etc.

Sony isn't a platform for indies, their strategy is to make a AAA system, by keeping senior devs on. Different strategies. You want to grow your talent through experimentation and variety. Microsoft is young now, but give it more time and we'll have more variety and hopefully more AAA productions.

Nintendo is still behind, they have their Japanese devs, but at least their games are not riddled with bugs like western releases.
Some good points made here but also some others that are rather far fetched. I'm very impressed with Microsoft's approach to indie development but how these developers will transition to AAA projects, I'm not sure on that one. Sony do support indie development and are certainly not just AAA but again I see where you are coming from. Nintendo is simply different and I'm happy they are, they can't really be compared to the other two IMO.
 

KingT731

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Just further evidence that PS4 is a GTA/COD/Sportsball machine.
It would be wise not to make blanket assumptions based off of a small number of indie developers. Like the one guy who kicked off all that "Sony doesn't support indies" nonsense only to find out the game he made was some (respectfully) shitty auto runner.
 
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ReBurn

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Indie team who gets a deal with a platform holder praises that platform holder. What a surprise!

Now ask another team who asked MS to put their game on Game Pass and MS said they won't because they don't like the game.


There are over 1500 million games sold for PS4, it has the record of the biggest amount of games sold for a console in gaming history. Sure, the top publishers will have a huge % of that, same as in all other platforms. But a good chunk of that must be for indies.
Which teams asked to put their games on game pass and were denied? And what were the reasons given? Let's see the receipts.

I mean not all indie games are good. I'm disappointed with them more than I'm entertained. If Microsoft were curating bad games you'd also be complaining
 

SenjutsuSage

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I mean...you think they'd be honest after all that shit? Think about man...

Would you tell the boss after dat pay check about the REAL issues at the work place that they doing wrong? So...its not saying they don't mean it, simply that I don't expect them to do some massive expose and because they have a bias by default of literally being the ones getting dat "funding" it makes sense to maybe not take what they are saying seriously.

They have skin in the game so to speak.

I don't doubt MS is trying to do right by developers mind you, simply that I don't know if I'd count this as a lot of evidence considering the source.


They say Microsoft has helped increase their marketing reach for their game. The very fact we are discussing it now, and it's been getting discussed since the June showcase on all kinds of podcasts/forums/social media sites is proof that even that part is true.

They say they have more potential people who will try the game due to Game Pass. We have eyes and know that too is obviously true. I don't see what's there to question.

The short version of what you're saying is don't trust any game developer doing business with Microsoft. And you say considering the source? The source is an independent game developer not owned by Microsoft. Maybe we should instead trust developers who owned by and only exclusively build games for Playstation or Nintendo on what it's like to partner with Microsoft and Xbox. Seems you got a Microsoft/Xbox problem.
 

EDMIX

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They say Microsoft has helped increase their marketing reach for their game. The very fact we are discussing it now, and it's been getting discussed since the June showcase on all kinds of podcasts/forums/social media sites is proof that even that part is true.

They say they have more potential people who will try the game due to Game Pass. We have eyes and know that too is obviously true. I don't see what's there to question.

I do. You are simply stating things that occured like MS marketing and being on gamepass, but how its truly impacted the game itself they may not be 100% clear or honest about.

As in, if it didn't do much or they had bad things happen from MS or anything like that, they might feel MS pulling funding, marketing as a result of those comments, thus will not repeat negative things. As in, you are not going to tell your boss the real work conditions to their face when those issues are literally a result of the boss themselves, you might be likely to say positive things when put on the spot.

Its not saying the job is false, its not saying the money received from it is fake, its saying the person may not be 100% honest about the issues considering that relationship......


The short version of what you're saying is don't trust any game developer doing business with Microsoft. And you say considering the source? The source is an independent game developer not owned by Microsoft.

Never said anything remotely like that, don't trust any developer getting funding from a publisher, marketing from a publisher and might want to be fucking owned by said publisher in the future, thus will make flattering comments.

So they have skin in the game bud, MS is literally doing something for them, so I don't expect them to throw MS under the bus and be like "MS is really fucking us over" lol Thats like trying to say a vendor will tell the truth about the retailer, they simply won't. They have a relationship that by default will have a bias, thus its kinda pointless, you need a 3rd party that has ZERO agenda to earn anything from MS or that developer etc to tell you about issues going on, the workers might not, the developer might not, MS might not etc. Its why when ever you have a developer leave, they often reveal issues within a company, well....they fucking are safe to do so now lol

Maybe we should instead trust developers who owned by and only exclusively build games for Playstation or Nintendo on what it's like to partner with Microsoft and Xbox. Seems you got a Microsoft/Xbox problem.

Seems like you assume waaaay too fucking much man. The point being made is regarding any business relationship. No where in my comment do i state this is ONLY about MS or MS in general can't be trusted or anything weird like that, stop fucking adding in this crap to bicker about off topic shit man.

Someone is marketing a game for you, has you on gamepass, funding shit...that sounds like a situation where they are very likely to NOT express the negative things going on, they have a bias not to, but I expect that from ANY developer or ANY business that has a partnership like this, its not the source to seek a real objective view from, as in they literally have reasons NOT to express those views completely.

I don't expect them to and I wouldn't either. Nothing to do with MS vs Nintendo vs Sony (I don't even know where you got that shit from lol)
 

SenjutsuSage

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I do. You are simply stating things that occured like MS marketing and being on gamepass, but how its truly impacted the game itself they may not be 100% clear or honest about.

As in, if it didn't do much or they had bad things happen from MS or anything like that, they might feel MS pulling funding, marketing as a result of those comments, thus will not repeat negative things. As in, you are not going to tell your boss the real work conditions to their face when those issues are literally a result of the boss themselves, you might be likely to say positive things when put on the spot.

Its not saying the job is false, its not saying the money received from it is fake, its saying the person may not be 100% honest about the issues considering that relationship......




Never said anything remotely like that, don't trust any developer getting funding from a publisher, marketing from a publisher and might want to be fucking owned by said publisher in the future, thus will make flattering comments.

So they have skin in the game bud, MS is literally doing something for them, so I don't expect them to throw MS under the bus and be like "MS is really fucking us over" lol Thats like trying to say a vendor will tell the truth about the retailer, they simply won't. They have a relationship that by default will have a bias, thus its kinda pointless, you need a 3rd party that has ZERO agenda to earn anything from MS or that developer etc to tell you about issues going on, the workers might not, the developer might not, MS might not etc. Its why when ever you have a developer leave, they often reveal issues within a company, well....they fucking are safe to do so now lol



Seems like you assume waaaay too fucking much man. The point being made is regarding any business relationship. No where in my comment do i state this is ONLY about MS or MS in general can't be trusted or anything weird like that, stop fucking adding in this crap to bicker about off topic shit man.

Someone is marketing a game for you, has you on gamepass, funding shit...that sounds like a situation where they are very likely to NOT express the negative things going on, they have a bias not to, but I expect that from ANY developer or ANY business that has a partnership like this, its not the source to seek a real objective view from, as in they literally have reasons NOT to express those views completely.

I don't expect them to and I wouldn't either. Nothing to do with MS vs Nintendo vs Sony (I don't even know where you got that shit from lol)

You said a whole lot to deny what you're actually doing, and did in fact more or less say. You're saying that they can't be trusted just because they entered into an arrangement where they receive funding from Microsoft to build their game. That's what you said. You didn't say it about anybody else other than the company at the subject of this thread, so yes, you did only say it about Microsoft, and it's pretty obvious why you said it. I don't know why you're trying to dance around it because you were called out.

Arrangements like this exist in every industry under the sun. So everybody that gets money to perform a job or to fund a project is basically someone who can't be trusted by your logic, or is most likely lying, even when evidence supports what they're saying? The things they mention as being advantages of partnering with Microsoft are things that have already been proven true, so I don't get what is there for you to question about their honesty on the matter.

1 - Their game is indeed receiving loads more marketing reach because of their partnership with Microsoft.
2 - Their game is likely to be tried by a larger number of people thanks to its availability on Game Pass.
 
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Saying "there is no cons at all!!!!"
Is such a huge and obvious lie that I can't take it seriously.

There is cons in anything. It applies with any contract. So this is not reporting facts, just a PR piece. As per usual, Xbox uses propaganda tactics rather than just report things as they are.
 

kingfey

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You said a whole lot to deny what you're actually doing, and did in fact more or less say. You're saying that they can't be trusted just because they entered into an arrangement where they receive funding from Microsoft to build their game. That's what you said. You didn't say it about anybody else other than the company at the subject of this thread, so yes, you did only say it about Microsoft, and it's pretty obvious why you said it. I don't know why you're trying to dance around it because you were called out.

Arrangements like this exist in every industry under the sun. So everybody that gets money to perform a job or to fund a project is basically someone who can't be trusted by your logic, or is most likely lying, even when evidence supports what they're saying? The things they mention as being advantages of partnering with Microsoft are things that have already been proven true, so I don't get what is there for you to question about their honesty on the matter.

1 - Their game is indeed receiving loads more marketing reach because of their partnership with Microsoft.
2 - Their game is likely to be tried by a larger number of people thanks to its availability on Game Pass.
Its a market advertisement for devs. Not for us plebs gamers.

If too much devs screamed how gamepass is good for their service, other devs would try to join the service. Its a common tactic in business world.

What MS goal is to attract more devs to their gamepass service. In order to do it, they show these type of publicity.

For us gamers, we think this is a good act. But in reality, business world doesnt have that word. Every step has a purpose.
 
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JWhiskey

Neo Member
Apr 5, 2021
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Saying "there is no cons at all!!!!"
Is such a huge and obvious lie that I can't take it seriously.

There is cons in anything. It applies with any contract. So this is not reporting facts, just a PR piece. As per usual, Xbox uses propaganda tactics rather than just report things as they are.
So Twinfinite interviews a developer from Sad Cat Studios and in your mind it's just another example of evil Microsoft?