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Polygon: From sex symbol to icon: How Crystal Dynamics saved Lara Croft

I'm talking about the design of the characters here dude. When you look at them. Are you telling me that new Lara's design is even half as iconic as her design used to be? Lara Croft is way more iconic than Bayonetta over all, but it's mostly due to her past appearances. Lara's current design stripped away too many of the elements that made her instantly distinguishable.

Okay, this makes more sense, because you are working from a different definition than me (and others here, I suspect).

What you're really talking about is distinctive design rather than cultural recognizability. Yeah, Bayonetta and Samus have much more distinctive designs than somebody like Nathan Drake or Joel or Lara Croft. But that's not the conversation we are having.

The conversation we are having is about how many people recognize Lara Croft and how many of those people hold her in admiration. And the population of people who identifies and identifies with Tomb Raider is much larger than the people who would recognize Bayonetta off the street.

It's part popularity contest and part evaluation of cultural proliferation. Lara has simply gone farther and made more (in quantity) meaningful connections with fans than the likes of Bayonetta or Samus have.

No matter what they "look" like. Which is a different conversation completely. There's nothing visually distinct about Nathan Drake's beige shirt or Joel's green shirt or Lara's grey shirt. But that isn't what we're trying to determine.

We were just coming from different angles completely, which is why people seemed so confused by your (and other's?) posts.
 

JackelZXA

Member
Tomb Raider Legends did a great job of making Lara into a cool character instead of a sex-bot. I don't really like what I saw of real-girl lara from the last game, she just seems kind of boring. I kind of like the cartoonish super-explorer she was in Legends. I guess they went back to sex-symbol stuff by the time they got to Underworld? I didn't play it, I'm not sure. Does the article not mention what Legends did?
 

kingkaiser

Member
Those Polygon guys must smoke some serious shit. I mean, what the hell are they even talking about.

Lara Croft was an icon since the late 90s. She was fuckin' huge.

At least here in Europe she was almost as popular as Madonna. There was even a music video from a German band called "Die Ärzte" featuring her.

It's called "Manner sind Schweine" - "Men are swines"

My 60 year old mum would recognize Lara Croft in her original form instantly.

If I showed her the redesign though, she would be like..."oh yeah son, that's a cute one."

"Why don't you find yourself such a nice girlfriend...why are you still not married...blablabla"
 
Uncharted's Chloe is, IMO, the ideal Lara Croft-type character. You can be sexy and feminine while still being strong and badass AND have compassion and heart. Lara in TR 2013 is basically characterized as a victim-turned-survivor as a way of telling the audience, "look, she's not Nude Raider anymore! She's not busty or sultry or fun, either!"

BTW, since we're now beginning to move on from sexualizing women, this gay man would like more shirtless dudes with muscles running around games. :)
 

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
At the center was Camilla Luddington’s performance as Lara. Rather that the comical quips of the earlier Lara Croft, Luddington perfectly projected a young girl often unsure of herself.

Ha ha ha haaaaaa~. Lara Craft has had far far better talented voice actresses than Luddington.
 

FStop7

Banned
I'm also wondering about his BioShock comment because Elizabeth is actually your combat support and never in need of protection
I don't really see the male power fantasy in there.

I'm with you until sexy cleavage dress time happens in Bioshock Infinite. I don't get why they went there when they started off so well.
 

Deadstar

Member
Iconic "looking" is not remotely what they're talking about in the article. The colours someone wears as a character matters so little these days. At least I hope.

I very strongly disagree that color doesn't matter. The "look" of a character is part of what makes them iconic. Imagine if Mario was black and white and the red and blue were gone. I don't think he would be as popular as he is now or at the very least he wouldn't look as aesthetically pleasing. The bright colors contribute to his overall design in positive way. A black and white color character can obviously work but Mario's current clothing is part of what makes him recognizable and iconic.

Lara Croft now wears generic pants and a top. It's the same with Nathan Drake. Nathan Drake looks like a generic dude. There's nothing that sets him apart from any other character. They're boring characters aesthetically. Lara's old design was more appealing to me and that's just my opinion.
 

Guri

Member
I prefer the new Lara in terms of design and potential for character development. In that regard, I agree with Brianna that she's iconic now, in a world where there are not many great women protagonists in AAA games over the last few years. You can definitely compare both the classic games and the new ones, but after all, it's just opinions, not facts. Just look at this thread and see how many prefer one or another.

With that being said, it's important to remind that the Polygon article is also an opinion wrote by a game developer. It's not game journalism, it's not a fact. And Brianna has her reasons to believe what she said and so the team responsible for creating the new Lara. It's OK to disagree.
 

zsynqx

Member
IMO nothing is wrong with that .
Having to much depth is overrated .

I disagree when it is handled well, which unfortunately the reboot did not. I really hate how the author lauds the narrative of the reboot on the basic premise that there was some effort to humanize the characters, specifically the female ones.

I too want more strong female characters in my videogames, but I want them to be well written ones as well.
 

thumb

Banned
The new Lara (TR2013, dunno about the new game), on the other hand, just constantly switches between being a badass Rambo that kills tons of people and a whiny girl.

not this whiny, bland character with daddy issues, hyper emotional yet murders everyone in her path moaning from every tumble, scratch and jump , optional tombs Tomb Raider we have today. Old Lara's greatness didn't come from just the fact she is a woman.

Can either of you be more specific with regard to Lara in TR 2013? That is, can you point to some situations where you feel Lara's response was "whiny" or "hyper emotional" given the circumstances? It doesn't accord with my memory, but I'm willing to be wrong.
 
Don't agree. They might have stopped her being seen as a sex symbol but the character we have isn't that good to be honest. No real charm to the character, just fragile killing machine which isn't what Lara croft is to me. Her character was defined best in legends, a badass who never got flustered and didn't have self doubt continuously.
 

Slaythe

Member
If that means Lara is like Katniss, that modern Lara comparison works for me.

I guess people are forgetting that this version of Lara is supposed to be younger and less mature anyway?

And yet somehow murdering thousands of people.

This is shit. Went from a perfect mix of adventure and action with a smart and witty character that fought various dangers and only used violence if forced to, to this whiny sociopathic cold killer. Also absolutely can't stand Camilla. Game feels so bland overall. You get to blow stuff up ! So awesome. But hey, pew pew bloom booooom right, gotta sell !
 

Reedirect

Member
2015 wasn't exactly shy of great female characters (Ciri, Max Caulfield, Fiona, hell, even Moira Burton), but you have to count on Polygon writing a praise-piece on the least interesting one.
 
Iconic has nothing to do with if something aesthetically pops out at you or not.
I said iconic design. A character can be iconic without having an iconic design, but that just means that there were other elements (like characterization, backstory, name, etc.) that helped achieve that. Having an iconic design has everything to do with having distinuishable aesthetics. The reason that Lara as a character remains iconic despite her new look is because of her name, her legacy, her newfound characterization, her very few remaining distinguishing visual features and her game being in the hands of a lot of people.

What you're really talking about is distinctive design rather than cultural recognizability. Yeah, Bayonetta and Samus have much more distinctive designs than somebody like Nathan Drake or Joel or Lara Croft. But that's not the conversation we are having.
I don't know, when Polygon said "sex symbol" they kinda made it about her design right?
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
Sex symbols tend to turn into icons over time. Marilyn Monroe anyone?

At any rate, new Lara is still sexy in her own way and the character/name "Lara Croft" is the iconic part. I think it would be interesting is Crystal Dynamics kind of treated "Lara Croft" like "James Bond." Can change the design, but the ideas, character and traits remain and evolve over time.

Will never happen though. =x
 

Mr_Zombie

Member
Iconic "looking" is not remotely what they're talking about in the article. The colours someone wears as a character matters so little these days. At least I hope.

Can you recognize those characters?
minimalist.jpg


That's the point of making an iconic look. And colors are very important in the process.
That's why, for example, in Resident Evil series no matter what they wear, you can bet Jill will get a lot of blue in her costume, Chris a lot of green, and Ada a lot of black and red.
 

UrbanRats

Member
I disagree when it is handled well, which unfortunately the reboot did not.
You disagree that not every single character needs the same level of depth? That's quite absurd, since different narrative structure actually benefit from different levels of depth in characterization.

Again, someone like Indiana Jones works perfectly within the framework of those movies, with that light level of development and depth.

Lara Croft worked perfectly well with that level of depth, for what the series was about, she didn't need a huge detailed psychological backstory as to why she loved to raid tombs, the agency of the player itself guaranteed that, she explored tombs for the same exact reason that you did, because they were wonderful and beautiful and mysterious.
You told "that" story through the environments and the game design.

Now you try to introduce some bullshit drama, some shitty trauma, and you're playing a whole different game, suddenly i don't want to be there, and i'm not even sure why i would want to go back there.

They basically took something that was wondrous, and made it needlessly creepy.
 

RK128

Member
Can either of you be more specific with regard to Lara in TR 2013? That is, can you point to some situations where you feel Lara's response was "whiny" or "hyper emotional" given the circumstances? It doesn't accord with my memory, but I'm willing to be wrong.

Basically every cut-scene in the game; the cut-scene present Lara as someone trying to get by with surviving the world around her, but in game, she kills left and right with little issue.

I remember some specific scenes that Lara could easily solve an problem but lets a male character 'sacrifice' themselves to save her, even though she shown through gameplay she can save herself.

The scene that comes to mind is when Lara goes to an abandon ship and encounters one of her 'friends' that is in trouble (stuck in a pipe or something). An foe is pointing at her with his gun and instead of firing back, she just freezes up, having the male character take the bullet. So instead of fighting back and saving her friend, he dies with water rising and Lara is 'struggles' to escape. I might be mis-remembering (haven't played the game in a good year or so) but that is an example of the point I'm bringing up.

It really felt like the story went in one direction, while the gameplay/set-piece design is doing something else; creating conflict with the core message within the game and thus leading to really bad narrative dissonance being in the reboot.
 

Clawww

Member
Really enjoyed Tomb Raider, but that was in spite of any characterisation. Lara could have been anyone.

I hope that's improved for Rise of, but I doubt it while Camilla Luddington is involved. She's a terrible actor.

seriously like I beat TR, but I couldn't write a sentence if you asked me about Lara's personality
 

viveks86

Member
1) She was pretty iconic to begin with--I think people who think about the dark days of the PS2-early 360 era forget just what a phenomenon the series and the character was in the 90s, and not just because of boob. Hence stuff like this

2) I really think just about everyone who talks about the pathos and deep emotional core of TR2013 is overplaying bigtime. I think as we look back on the "moral dilemma" of how Lara "had to kill for the first time", it'll be considered as flimsy as BioShock 1's harvest/spare dilemma or inFamous 1's morality system. Even TLOU covers the same material better and I don't think they did a particularly good job of it either. If you want people to feel a moral impact from choosing to kill, you can't design a game that requires you to kill hundreds (thousands?) of people subsequently and then put in a throwaway line about how "wow killing became easy".

This
 

Auctopus

Member
This design is more iconic and it's nothing to do with her being "sexy"...

hqdefault.jpg


It's because the colour and design is simple.
 

zsynqx

Member
You disagree that not every single character needs the same level of depth? That's quite absurd, since different narrative structure actually benefit from different levels of depth in characterization.

Again, someone like Indiana Jones works perfectly within the framework of those movies, with that light level of development and depth.

Lara Croft worked perfectly well with that level of depth, for what the series was about, she didn't need a huge detailed psychological backstory as to why she loved to raid tombs, the agency of the player itself guaranteed that, she explored tombs for the same exact reason that you did, because they were wonderful and beautiful and mysterious.
You told "that" story through the environments and the game design.

Now you try to introduce some bullshit drama, some shitty trauma, and you're playing a whole different game, suddenly i don't want to be there, and i'm not even sure why i would want to go back there.

They basically took something that was wondrous, and made it needlessly creepy.

Ofc not every game needs deep characters, but I am not opposed to the idea of it being introduced to the Tomb Raider franchise. That might partly be because I never had that much attachment to the franchise.
 

scitek

Member
If the writing is as bad as the reboot, I don't see what can be done to make her or her shitty friends likable.

Her "Sam!" was just as grating as Samus' "the baby."
 

ghostjoke

Banned
If that means Lara is like Katniss, that modern Lara comparison works for me.

I guess people are forgetting that this version of Lara is supposed to be younger and less mature anyway?

Isn't Katniss even younger than Lara and, at least in the books, is more than just a badass forced into horrible circumstance? You have the kindness when it comes to her sister but she can also be completely selfish and irritating too. It might be unfair to compare the characters as they're from different forms of media which rely on different things to be successful but Katniss always felt like a more realised character with a logical arc compared to the flip-floppy arc Lara had.
 

Mr_Zombie

Member
Tomb Raider Legends did a great job of making Lara into a cool character instead of a sex-bot.

The funny thing about that is, Lara never was a sex-bot in the games. She had huge assets that was used a lot in promotional arts, but the games never (well, maybe aside from two short scenes in TR2 that were rather played for the fun) focused on Lara's sexuality or her breasts. In games she was never a sex symbol, she was a "cool character", just like in Legend - witty, smart and strong - that just happens to have (very) unnatural proportions.
 
Basically every cut-scene in the game; the cut-scene present Lara as someone trying to get by with surviving the world around her, but in game, she kills left and right with little issue.

I remember some specific scenes that Lara could easily solve an problem but lets a male character 'sacrifice' themselves to save her, even though she shown through gameplay she can save herself.

The scene that comes to mind is when Lara goes to an abandon ship and encounters one of her 'friends' that is in trouble (stuck in a pipe or something). An foe is pointing at her with his gun and instead of firing back, she just freezes up, having the male character take the bullet. So instead of fighting back and saving her friend, he dies with water rising and Lara is 'struggles' to escape. I might be mis-remembering (haven't played the game in a good year or so) but that is an example of the point I'm bringing up.

It really felt like the story went in one direction, while the gameplay/set-piece design is doing something else; creating conflict with the core message within the game and thus leading to really bad narrative dissonance being in the reboot.
Did you actually play it or just read someone's very misinformed and factually wrong statement abou game? Like that part when her friend is stuck didn't even go like that.
 

Arklite

Member
Lara Croft now wears generic pants and a top. It's the same with Nathan Drake. Nathan Drake looks like a generic dude. There's nothing that sets him apart from any other character. They're boring characters aesthetically. Lara's old design was more appealing to me and that's just my opinion.

She certainly was more eye catching in both wear and demeanor in the past, but I do like that Crystal has tried to evolve her design. She just needs something to maker her design less muted. Very true about Drake, though. All here can instantly recognize him and the Uncharted games loom large and present but nobody outside the gaming community could recognize him at all, sadly.
 
The fact that people are calling this version of Lara Croft:
3TlOPqk.jpg


more sexualized than this version of Lara Croft:


Especially when you consider things like the cinematography and the marketing. Is ridiculous.


They explain this in the article, (which I feel like many aren't actually reading).

I find it way more attractive. Seeing skin all over the place doesn't do it for me. I like my mind to wonder a bit. Of course, I'm probably a minority in regards to what I find attractive.

If we're simply talking about which is more scantily clad, then yeah...
 
The revisionist history about the old Lara is such bullshit. Yeah, in terms of marketing she was pushed as a sex symbol. But for the most part in Core's games she was always a strong adventurer. She controlled shit in her games. I don't see why she has to be ragdolled around and bloodied to be made believable.

She's still sexy. Just not in a 90s way but in a 2010s way. And the writing is terrible. She was more of an icon back in the day, people don't really care about her anymore. Some care about her games, but not about her - she's basically a non-character. Her design is also super generic now.

yeah i dont know man..
yes her classic design was ridiculous, and a lot of the marketing for the games had her creepy design posed in all kinds of "provocative" positions (aka appealing to horny 12 year old boys)

but in the actual games classic lara as actually pretty rad


the new lara is shallow as fuck. they hyped up her arc so much but then you get the game and she basically has a breakdown in 1 cutscene over killing someone...and then proceeds to murder an entire island without batting an eye.

Lara was turned from a sexually confident and absolutely competent action heroine into a feeble whimpering "believable" (lol) mess of a character whose hardships were presented with a borderline perverted glee.

The general accepting of the new character as a superior feminist role model shows how willing so-called progressives are to cheer on a character once you just tone down the cleavage.

A billion times these.

The annoying thing for me is the question of why Lara needed to be remade. We have so many unapologetic badass male heroes in games, she was one of the few that stood up with all the rest and didn't need some traumatic origin story or a series of games that gradually build her into a hero. She just WAS one from the beginning. But because she's a woman now we need to start explaining stuff, and one of the few iconic female badasses in gaming gets turned into a whimpering girl who is constantly brutalized in the name of 'character development'.

Fucking YES. I whished CD would read some of these comments.
 
This design is more iconic and it's nothing to do with her being "sexy"...

hqdefault.jpg


It's because the colour and design is simple.

I would argue you would have a hard time translating so few colors into a modern design. Temple of Osiris is all right, but something on the scale of RotTR wouldn't really work. The tech has outpaced the simplicity of the PS1 design.

For what it's worth, anecdotally, my girlfriend and another friend wear gray tank tops now because of Lara Croft. I think the accessibility of her outfit, in that it's something a normal woman would wear, is what makes it appealing.

So while it might seem generic, it's possibly quite effective, because it helps establish Lara as an ordinary person in an extraordinary circumstance.

Personally, I think Lara's design is still quite distinct and immediately recognizable. Especially supplemented by her trademark props (like the climbing axe).
 
I disagree when it is handled well, which unfortunately the reboot did not. I really hate how the author lauds the narrative of the reboot on the basic premise that there was some effort to humanize the characters, specifically the female ones.

I too want more strong female characters in my videogames, but I want them to be well written ones as well.

You don't have to much depth to be well written or strong .
Elena in UC1 is a eg of this .
 
I prefer the new Lara in terms of design and potential for character development. In that regard, I agree with Brianna that she's iconic now, in a world where there are not many great women protagonists in AAA games over the last few years. You can definitely compare both the classic games and the new ones, but after all, it's just opinions, not facts. Just look at this thread and see how many prefer one or another.

With that being said, it's important to remind that the Polygon article is also an opinion wrote by a game developer. It's not game journalism, it's not a fact. And Brianna has her reasons to believe what she said and so the team responsible for creating the new Lara. It's OK to disagree.

Sure, but I like this more isn't what iconic means. Like at all. That's a fact, and something you can't disagree with. I prefer this therefore it's iconic is inane.
 
Basically every cut-scene in the game; the cut-scene present Lara as someone trying to get by with surviving the world around her, but in game, she kills left and right with little issue.

I remember some specific scenes that Lara could easily solve an problem but lets a male character 'sacrifice' themselves to save her, even though she shown through gameplay she can save herself.

The scene that comes to mind is when Lara goes to an abandon ship and encounters one of her 'friends' that is in trouble (stuck in a pipe or something). An foe is pointing at her with his gun and instead of firing back, she just freezes up, having the male character take the bullet. So instead of fighting back and saving her friend, he dies with water rising and Lara is 'struggles' to escape. I might be mis-remembering (haven't played the game in a good year or so) but that is an example of the point I'm bringing up.

It really felt like the story went in one direction, while the gameplay/set-piece design is doing something else; creating conflict with the core message within the game and thus leading to really bad narrative dissonance being in the reboot.

There is no scene in the game that happens the way you describe it.

Alex goes to the ship because he is trying to be heroic and get tools for the engineer. He ends up pinned beneath metal debris and it's clear he will die from his injuries.

She tells Lara to save herself instead of trying to save him so he can finally feel like a hero.

Lara does not struggle to escape. She just does.
 

FyreWulff

Member
A friend of mine was watching the benchmark mode where the camera spins around here in TR 2013, and her impression was that she was still overtly sexualized.
 

deeptech

Member
The funny thing about that is, Lara never was a sex-bot in the games. She had huge assets that was used a lot in promotional arts, but the games never (well, maybe aside from two short scenes in TR2 that were rather played for the fun) focused on Lara's sexuality or her breasts. In games she was never a sex symbol, she was a "cool character", just like in Legend - witty, smart and strong - that just happens to have (very) unnatural proportions.

Seriously, classic TR games are some of my favorite ever. And me liking original Lara had nothing to do with her breast size or whatever. I actually loved how damn cool she was of a character, still love her ofc. I believe most people share the same thinking

This article is pretty damn stupid
 
This design is more iconic and it's nothing to do with her being "sexy"...

hqdefault.jpg


It's because the colour and design is simple.
The light blue amongst all the brown really pops and gives a nice contrast. The proportions are interesting. I'm not sure if they could get away with going so "cartoony" in this day and age, but I wish the newer design/games were a little bit stylized. The tank top, the shorts, the belt, the boots and the straps create casual/militaristic balance. I don't think it's seen in this version of Lara, but at least in the sequels she gets that awesome long Katniss braid long before it was the Katniss braid.

I would argue you would have a hard time translating so few colors into a modern design. Temple of Osiris is all right, but something on the scale of RotTR wouldn't really work. The tech has outpaced the simplicity of the PS1 design.
The problem isn't the tech, it's the realism. If the new games had an art style where her classic design would fit well, then it would translate just fine.
 
So while it might seem generic, it's possibly quite effective, because it helps establish Lara as an ordinary person in an extraordinary circumstance.

But why should Lara be an ordinary person? The opening cutscene for the very first level in the very first Tomb Raider has her cut her grappling hook and then proceed to gun down wolves before she even hits the ground. She was depicted as a larger than life character right from the start.

And then you fight a T-Rex.
 

Lime

Member
Legend trilogy still the best Lara by far. RIP badass Lara.

Just like the original design was sexed up to match the gaming audience, the new design of weak crying constantly vulnerable Lara was too. It's the new hot trend of male power fantasies in gaming to be the strong man leading the vulnerable female through danger like in Bioshock Infinite or The Last of Us. Crystal Dynamics just chased that trend except put the player not in the role of Lara, but in an outside entity that leads her by the hand and would 'want to protect her'. It's still gross just in a different way.

Personally I always prefer badass, capable and adventurous Lara who didn't need an origin story of almost being raped and traumatized to explain away her badassness. She was just awesome because she was.

Also Rihanna Prachett has a bad track record in games. TR2013's cast was a who's who of racial stereotypes and shouldn't be put on any pedestal for good representation and diversity in games. Lara has three different men die to save her in that game. THREE.

Yup exactly. This is precisely how I feel about this topic. I personally can't stand crying and trembling Lara with the fragile and vulnerable voice of Camilla Luddington.

I much prefer no-nonsense Lara.
 

patapuf

Member
I like her new design but writing wise the reboot was a mess. I understand they wanted to get away from the indiana jones characterization but the new one clashes so hard with what is actually happening it doesn't work. And it's still bad even if you suspend your disbelief. Her "friends" were even worse. I don't think i've ever disliked friendly characters more than i did in that game.

Ironically they could have made it work much better if they went with a similar approach as the old games.
 
I like her design in Tempe of Osiris. It's cool, classy, yet feels like classic Lara Croft (unlike her reboot self, IMO).

I haven't played that one yet, but yeah; I liked her a lot in Guardian of Light. I like the older, sure of herself, slightly sassy Lara better than their attempts at serious drama from the reboot (not played RotTR yet).
 
But why should Lara be an ordinary person? The opening cutscene for the very first level in the very first Tomb Raider has her cut her grappling hook and then proceed to gun down wolves before she even hits the ground. She was depicted as a larger than life character right from the start.

There's no reason for her to be an ordinary person. I'm not spinning it as a positive, just a reality. All I'm saying is, given the portrayal, it's effective in a different way than "superhero Lara."

I am not one of those people who thinks all characters should be ordinary, or are better for being ordinary, don't think that.

I'm just assessing the situation.
 

memoryswap

Neo Member
It's a step in the right direction. I think that the creative heads showed good instincts and I support the move.

However, redesigning a character's appearance and making her behavior seem more human in a few select moments is pretty insignificant when the game as a whole is still a murder simulator/utterly unbelievable.
 
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