Darth Ghandi
Banned
Wtf you talking about?
This was a festival held by black feminists in FRANCE! So obviously it is needed.
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Paris mayor demands black feminist festival that 'prohibits' white people be banned
- Thread starter Shiggy
- Start date
Wtf you talking about?
This was a festival held by black feminists in FRANCE! So obviously it is needed.
GhostTrick
Banned
We invented Nana Ruth as a joke character because a year or so back there were a ton of threads about protestors blocking traffic and some folks kept saying shit like MLK would never do that (he did... a lot) and started talking about strawgrandmas who will die or miss their doctor's appointment because of these protestors and won't someone think of the non existant grandmas.
From that Nana Ruth was born. A few of us will drop references to her when we want to be sarcastic about people getting irrational over how folk, usually black folk, are protesting or fighting for their rights.
Here I expanded that Nana Ruth is the American strawgrandma and Grand-mère Claire is the French one... just expanding on the joke.
omg AMAZING HAHAHAAHAH
This thread is hilarious. A bunch of americans trying to export their racism issues into a french event. The fuck is this?
Discrimination and racism definitely exist in France but xenophobia is the real problem. There isn't a black problem in France like you have in the USA, french people have a different history with that. But you have a lot of white french people hating the "banlieue" people who are essentially people of a different origin because they are scared of them, there isn't enough cultural mixity in some part of the country. Ignorance is the devil here.
No the devil is in the details. People over complicating things in order to rationalize a simple truth: Banning people by race, gender, religion is bad. Really basic stuff.
Now of course some people who want to believe they are doing good, try to frame it as this group is deserving of special treatment because whatever, and this group needs to be ostracized because whatever. These same people never care about outcome or actual effects, they just like to believe they are on the moral high ground.
And while this is case seems fairly innocuous, of course you're going to get push back. Its thinking like this that leads to worse behavior:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO1agIlLlhg
GhostTrick
Banned
Before the issue was the racism of not including everyone else to this meeting that so many non black women were just dying to go to. Now it's Americans exporting their views on racism?
Pro tip: when you have people "hating" other people then yea no shit it's ignorance. Most racism is rife with it. It's still racism.
Yes, it is a problem when Americans speak about the situation in France when they don't know about it.
And yes, I bet many french women were willing to participate in such issue. I still find some comments rather weird, like the one claiming "white women wont bring much into the discussion". Thing is, as I said, in France, it's not a white/black thing.
Mammoth Jones
Member
No the devil is in the details. People over complicating things in order to rationalize a simple truth: Banning people by race, gender, religion is bad. Really basic stuff.
Now of course some people who want to believe they are doing good, try to frame it as this group is deserving of special treatment because whatever, and this group needs to be ostracized because whatever. These same people never care about outcome or actual effects, they just like to believe they are on the moral high ground.
And while this is case seems fairly innocuous, of course you're going to get push back. Its thinking like this that leads to worse behavior:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO1agIlLlhg
Oh please. How many centuries Black people have Ben trying desperately to hold hands with Europeans only to be met with hostility? Now some want to take five minutes to strategize on their own and it's a big deal?
I said it before: I wish the same people bitching about this showed up to work on racism the rest of the time and not be so selective with their outrage. Comes across as insincere to me.
Yes, it is a problem when Americans speak about the situation in France when they don't know about it.
And yes, I bet many french women were willing to participate in such issue. I still find some comments rather weird, like the one claiming "white women wont bring much into the discussion". Thing is, as I said, in France, it's not a white/black thing.
Is the org being run by Americans? Or are Americans just not allowed to comment?
Sorry. I'm going to speak about it. My desire to see Black people treated with the same respect and decency as other human beings doesn't stop at some arbitrary point on a map. So I support my French sisters.
Don't like it? Oh well for you I guess? I dunno.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
No the devil is in the details. People over complicating things in order to rationalize a simple truth: Banning people by race, gender, religion is bad. Really basic stuff.
Now of course some people who want to believe they are doing good, try to frame it as this group is deserving of special treatment because whatever, and this group needs to be ostracized because whatever. These same people never care about outcome or actual effects, they just like to believe they are on the moral high ground.
And while this is case seems fairly innocuous, of course you're going to get push back. Its thinking like this that leads to worse behavior:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO1agIlLlhg
This thread has outlined very carefully why MARGINALIZED groups shouldn't be allowed to hold meetings/workshops regarding how they should deal with racism/sexism.
Are you really arguing that marginalized groups should not be allowed that?
Cause you don't really have and argument except it is "bad". You don't say WHY, just that is bad.
And again I'm gonna say that segregation is something we use in certain places (like locker rooms).
So it is a tool that we use. And tool we should use.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Yes, it is a problem when Americans speak about the situation in France when they don't know about it.
How is it exporting views of racism? If I understand correctly. French Black Feminists wanna have private workshop to discuss their issues. Hilarity ensues. What view of racism is being exported here? You think they want a black women only environment because?
GhostTrick
Banned
Is the org being run by Americans? Or are Americans just not allowed to comment?
Sorry. I'm going to speak about it. My desire to see Black people treated with the same respect and decency as other human beings doesn't stop at some arbitrary point on a map. So I support my French sisters.
Don't like it? Oh well for you I guess? I dunno.
No, you don't get it. It's normal to feel concerned, I'm not blaming you for this. And Americans are allowed to comment. But we french people here are getting some hostile answers because we're providing some hinsights on the french situation and how things and communities don't work the same as in USA and that we're not in a black/white situation like in USA but more like people with origins from ex-colonies.
How is it exporting views of racism? If I understand correctly. French Black Feminists wanna have private workshop to discuss their issues. Hilarity ensues. What view of racism is being exported here? You think they want a black women only environment because?
Because some people here claimed "white women can't add much to the topic". But the french landscape of minorities is a different one than USA. And a movement that also think it should exclude other poc for a moment is excluding, yes.
It is importing views because you people need to understand our situation isn't the same as yours. Including for black people.
Oh please. How many centuries Black people have Ben trying desperately to hold hands with Europeans only to be met with hostility? Now some want to take five minutes to strategize on their own and it's a big deal?
That's the thing here. It's not only about Europeans.
ExactlyThe thread in nutshell: white supremacist propaganda scammed the more gullible 'liberal' people to hate on a black feminist workshop/festival.
When you got 'allies' like these, who needs enemies?
This is a pretty big undertaking of intellectual labor that you're tasking me with here. I could try and expound on this, but I have no reason to actually give you the benefit of the doubt. I know how these conversations go, I'm not about to detail the entire history of blackness and what it entails and have you dismiss it. Because given your antagonistic approach to this thread and black femmes I think it will be for naught. Maybe you are curious, but I cant know that, because honest curiosity would dictate you to have used google a long time ago.I'm weary of engaging sea lions, maybe you're not one, but again, I wouldn't know and you don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. Honestly, if you dont have a solid understanding of racism, I think you're not in a position to even engage in this discussion, you're starting at a deficit. Do your homework then return.Then, if I'm an ignorant, explain me. It's true, I'm not in bad faith, then let's stay civil and educate me on the matter. Maybe I misunderstood what you meant, honestly, if so, please explain me your point more in details.
Before the issue was the racism of not including everyone else to this meeting that so many non black women were just dying to go to. Now it's Americans exporting their views on racism?
Pro tip: when you have people "hating" other people then yea no shit it's ignorance. Most racism is rife with it. It's still racism.
I don't know, i grew up in "banlieue", i know a lot of different people, while having a white traditional family. I have been confronted to racist myself and in front of my eyes because i'm a redhead and i have a lot of immigration descendants as my friend. I don't think black woman are different than others when it comes to xenophobia in my country.
Then, a festival constructed on the idea of segregation and communautarism is toxic to me. There is a war between communities to be the king of the victims because some think some are overly represented in the media (i won't say which).
I don't say racism doesn't exist though. And i don't say black women don't suffer from it.
I'm a redhead and i've been beaten for that. If i wanted to do a only-redhead festival, forbidden to others, i would miss the opportunity to exchange and fight people who persecuted me in the past.
Everyone should talk to everyone.
Mammoth Jones
Member
No, you don't get it. It's normal to feel concerned, I'm not blaming you for this. And Americans are allowed to comment. But we french people here are getting some hostile answers because we're providing some hinsights on the french situation and how things and communities don't work the same as in USA and that we're not in a black/white situation like in USA but more like people with origins from ex-colonies.
Because some people here claimed "white women can't add much to the topic". But the french landscape of minorities is a different one than USA. And a movement that also think it should exclude other poc for a moment is excluding, yes.
It is importing views because you people need to understand our situation isn't the same as yours. Including for black people.
Thank you so much benevolent one for educating me on my ignorant views.
What would we ever do without your condescending guidance?
In all seriousness read a few history books and compare what you know to be normal vs the history of what Black people in France and everywhere else have had to deal with.
Obviously it doesn't work the same as the US. But a problem exists nonetheless or else you wouldn't have Black French Women organizing to deal with it. Go chastise them and tell them France doesn't have the same problems as the US. Please report back with their response.
I don't know, i grew up in "banlieue", i know a lot of different people, while having a white traditional family. I have been confronted to racist myself and in front of my eyes because i'm a redhead and i have a lot of immigration descendants as my friend. I don't think black woman are different than others when it comes to xenophobia in my country.
Then, a festival constructed on the idea of segregation and communautarism is toxic to me. There is a war between communities to be the king of the victims because some think some are overly represented in the media (i won't say which).
I don't say racism doesn't exist though. And i don't say black women don't suffer from it.
I'm a redhead and i've been beaten for that. If i wanted to do a only-redhead festival, forbidden to others, i would miss the opportunity to exchange and fight people who persecuted me in the past.
Everyone should talk to everyone.
sigh...
Gotdatmoney
Member
Because some people here claimed "white women can't add much to the topic".
That's not the opinion of Americans. That's the opinion of the Black French Feminists :/
But the french landscape of minorities is a different one than USA. And a movement that also think it should exclude other poc for a moment is excluding, yes.
So you know what the Black Feminists need or want better than they do? It's not American's creating the conflict here. Yall are complaining about what actual French Black Women want.
It is importing views because you people need to understand our situation isn't the same as yours. Including for black people.
I'm not American and that really aint even part of my point to begin with. What view has been exported? French Black Feminists want private space to discuss issues. So does racism not exist for them to not have any reason to want this? It's not Americans asking they have a space here.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
No, you don't get it. It's normal to feel concerned, I'm not blaming you for this. And Americans are allowed to comment. But we french people here are getting some hostile answers because we're providing some hinsights on the french situation and how things and communities don't work the same as in USA and that we're not in a black/white situation like in USA but more like people with origins from ex-colonies.
Because some people here claimed "white women can't add much to the topic". But the french landscape of minorities is a different one than USA. And a movement that also think it should exclude other poc for a moment is excluding, yes.
It is importing views because you people need to understand our situation isn't the same as yours. Including for black people.
That's the thing here. It's not only about Europeans.
Honestly are you just straight up denying that different marginalized groups are doing wrong if they want to have discussions among themselves on how to deal with issues facing said group?
And again, this isn't a US v France thing.
This event happened IN FRANCE.
It was sponsored by a black feminist group. Obviously THEY felt the need of such places and discussions.
So who the fuck are you telling them they can't?
GhostTrick
Banned
That's not the opinion of Americans. That's the opinion of the Black French Feminists :/
You know, if you didn't cut my sentence, it'd mean something else. It'd mean for exemple, other women of colors, like arab women because, you know, in France, as opposed to USA, there's a lot of french people with arab origins. And because our ethnical landscape is different than yours. Why ? Because it's been shaped by immigration from ex-colonies.
So yes, when someone is claiming "no one else can bring more to it", I'm saying it's bullshit. Because the situation is totally different.
Honestly are you just straight up denying that different marginalized groups are doing wrong if they want to have discussions among themselves on how to deal with issues facing said group?
And again, this isn't a US v France thing.
This event happened IN FRANCE.
It was sponsored by a black feminist group. Obviously THEY felt the need of such places and discussions.
So who the fuck are you telling them they can't?
Wow, thank you, I thought it was in USA all along :")
Read my posts again: I'm not saying they don't need such places for discussion. I'm not saying they can't (so tone down your language, I'm not attacking you).
This is a US vs France thing, because when someone claims intersection between sexism and racism only exist for Black Women, sorry, I can't buy that in France, when there's millions of arab women who suffer discrimination in France. I'm not saying one is worse than the other, of course not. I'm saying that people saying it's a one sided issue are just plenty wrong.
I understand that in USA, it's fuckin difficult to be black. But in France, the way discrimination goes on isn't a black/white thing and it goes beyond that, because, then again, it's about ex-colonies. So yes, I'm not against the fact that this feminist group wants to have a space only for black women. But I still have the right to find that discriminating for people of other colors in France, especially when someone here just come to say "yeah, they don't have anything else to add to the debate so lol".
This thread has outlined very carefully why MARGINALIZED groups shouldn't be allowed to hold meetings/workshops regarding how they should deal with racism/sexism.
Are you really arguing that marginalized groups should not be allowed that?
Cause you don't really have and argument except it is "bad". You don't say WHY, just that is bad.
And again I'm gonna say that segregation is something we use in certain places (like locker rooms).
So it is a tool that we use. And tool we should use.
Explain to me why excluding people by race and gender is good. Then check out the video I posted. That was a protest because they wanted to keep whites out of the school for a day and a Jewish prof said nope.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
No, you don't get it. It's normal to feel concerned, I'm not blaming you for this. And Americans are allowed to comment. But we french people here are getting some hostile answers because we're providing some hinsights on the french situation and how things and communities don't work the same as in USA and that we're not in a black/white situation like in USA but more like people with origins from ex-colonies.
Because some people here claimed "white women can't add much to the topic". But the french landscape of minorities is a different one than USA. And a movement that also think it should exclude other poc for a moment is excluding, yes.
It is importing views because you people need to understand our situation isn't the same as yours. Including for black people.
People in France are being discriminated against for a multitude of different reasons, lumping all of them together isn't really helpful.
Your experience as a "maghrébin" muslim will be different then my experience as a black person for exemple. The symptom will be the same but the reason are different. You can't fight different issues with such a narrow view of those different problem.
Gotdatmoney
Member
You know, if you didn't cut my sentence, it'd mean something else. It'd mean for exemple, other women of colors, like arab women because, you know, in France, as opposed to USA, there's a lot of french people with arab origins. And because our ethnical landscape is different than yours. Why ? Because it's been shaped by immigration from ex-colonies.
So yes, when someone is claiming "no one else can bring more to it", I'm saying it's bullshit. Because the situation is totally different.
What does that have to do with American's exporting racism?
If black women just wanna talk with black women and you say "no include others" then you are telling them what they need. It's not a hard concept here.
If arab women wanna have their own private gathering among themselves I see no issue. Leave them be. I am not going to tell female minorities how to best discuss their problems. Shrug. You wanna dictate for them.
What does that have to do with American's exporting racism?
If black women just wanna talk with black women and you say "no include others" then you are telling them what they need. It's not a hard concept here.
If arab women wanna have their own private gathering among themselves I see no issue. Leave them be. I am not going to tell female minorities how to best discuss their problems. Shrug. You wanna dictate for them.
Do you know the difference between a private reunion and a public festival?
Gotdatmoney
Member
Do you know the difference between a private reunion and a public festival?
Are you caught up on the thread?
Mammoth Jones
Member
Explain to me why excluding people by race and gender is good. Then check out the video I posted. That was a protest because they wanted to keep whites out of the school for a day and a Jewish prof said nope.
Why would Black people want to have a group meeting among Black people to discuss oppression under a system designed by, for, and still largely dominated by White people? You really asking that?
The answer is the same reason why so many in this thread are concerned with not being able to attend a meeting they'd have no intention or interest in actually attending...
GhostTrick
Banned
People in France are being discriminated against for a multitude of different reasons lumping all of them together isn't really helpful.
Your experience as a "maghrébin" muslim will be different then my experience as a black person for exemple. The symptom will be the same but the reason are different. You can't fight different issues with such a narrow view of those different problem.
Well, you said it yourself. Our experiences differs. So how can anyone in this thread claims "it's okay because others have nothing more to add to it" ?I don't have a narrow view on the subject, it's rather the opposite. Then again, I'm not even arguing the existence of that festival, if anything, I have everything for it. But yes, considering the situation in France and our views on ethnicity in France, having a black women only space, doesn't feel like the best way to adress that.
What does that have to do with American's exporting racism?
If black women just wanna talk with black women and you say "no include others" then you are telling them what they need. It's not a hard concept here.
If arab women wanna have their own private gathering among themselves I see no issue. Leave them be. I am not going to tell female minorities how to best discuss their problems. Shrug. You wanna dictate for them.
I never said American's exporting racism though.
I'm not telling them what they need either, I'm explaining to the people here that France and USA aren't the same countries and we don't have the same landscape and history.
Why do I say that ? Because some of you guys just view it as "Either black or white". Which is something you still didn't answered to btw, when I said that I didn't found normal for someone to say "others don't have anything to add more".
Why would Black people want to have a group meeting among Black people to discuss oppression under a system designed by, for, and still largely dominated by White people? You really asking that?
The answer is the same reason why so many in this thread are concerned with not being able to attend a meeting they'd have no intention or interest in actually attending...
Yes why is it ok to ban anyone based on color or gender or religion. That's what I'm asking. I mean clearly there are muslims attacking westerners, should we be able to have a meeting where we ban muslims so we can discuss terrorism? Seems like your answer is yes. Which I'm arguing is crazy racist.
Yes why is it ok to ban anyone based on color or gender or religion. That's what I'm asking. I mean clearly there are muslims attacking westerners, should we be able to have a meeting where we ban muslims so we can discuss terrorism? Seems like your answer is yes. Which I'm arguing is crazy racist.
Muslim terrorists are mostly attacking other Muslims. The issues of Islamic extremism are primarily those of Muslims, so if Muslims decided to convene among themselves to discuss what to do about that without entertaining the chance of being railroaded by a bunch of entitled Brexiters, I'd see no problem with that.
Muslim terrorists are mostly attacking other Muslims. The issues of Islamic extremism are primarily those of Muslims, so if Muslims decided to convene among themselves to discuss what to do about that without entertaining the chance of being railroaded by a bunch of entitled Brexiters, I'd see no problem with that.
The issue is green lighting the categorization of people as good or bad based on superficial things like race gender or religion. There is too much variance in individuals to make any broad judgement based on these things. Which is why we say... banning people on race/gender/religion is bad.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
You know, if you didn't cut my sentence, it'd mean something else. It'd mean for exemple, other women of colors, like arab women because, you know, in France, as opposed to USA, there's a lot of french people with arab origins. And because our ethnical landscape is different than yours. Why ? Because it's been shaped by immigration from ex-colonies.
So yes, when someone is claiming "no one else can bring more to it", I'm saying it's bullshit. Because the situation is totally different.
Wow, thank you, I thought it was in USA all along :")
Read my posts again: I'm not saying they don't need such places for discussion. I'm not saying they can't (so tone down your language, I'm not attacking you).
This is a US vs France thing, because when someone claims intersection between sexism and racism only exist for Black Women, sorry, I can't buy that in France, when there's millions of arab women who suffer discrimination in France. I'm not saying one is worse than the other, of course not. I'm saying that people saying it's a one sided issue are just plenty wrong.
I understand that in USA, it's fuckin difficult to be black. But in France, the way discrimination goes on isn't a black/white thing and it goes beyond that, because, then again, it's about ex-colonies. So yes, I'm not against the fact that this feminist group wants to have a space only for black women. But I still have the right to find that discriminating for people of other colors in France, especially when someone here just come to say "yeah, they don't have anything else to add to the debate so lol".
Well you don't seem to understand tbh.
None is denying the racis/sexism against Arab women.
But why are you bringing wanting Arab women into a event organized by feminists who are black?
None is saying that ONLY black women should be able to hold such talks.
You understand that right?
That everyone who is part of a marginalized group should have that right to define their struggle.
Explain to me why excluding people by race and gender is good. Then check out the video I posted. That was a protest because they wanted to keep whites out of the school for a day and a Jewish prof said nope.
We have had SO MANY POSTERS in the thread explain why yet you can't even bother to read?
I believe separatism is good since the marginalized group doesn't need to explain and defend against people who really don't care about their problems.
The energy saved and the ideas that may come in such places are valuable.
Gotdatmoney
Member
I never said American's exporting racism though.
You actually did. Maybe you don't realize you did but mammoth very clearly asked that and you said yes. Anyway.
I'm not telling them what they need either, I'm explaining to the people here that France and USA aren't the same countries and we don't have the same landscape and history.
Who said the countries are the same? All people are saying is clearly the French Black Feminists have some shit they wanna talk about by themselves and we should just respect that.
Why do I say that ? Because some of you guys just view it as "Either black or white". Which is something you still didn't answered to btw, when I said that I didn't found normal for someone to say "others don't have anything to add more".
It's not really relevant a question. If they wanna have a black people only discussion and they arrived at wanting that group specifcally than they have their reasons. And I'm not going to argue that their reasons are wrong. Shrug. If you wanna die on the hill that the black feminist are wrong then go ahead. It's just this weird ass ideal where you think that whatever discussion they are having you believe theoretically other people would definitely enchance it. It's just dumb.
You don't even know what they are gonna talk about and you're already sure they got it wrong.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Yes why is it ok to ban anyone based on color or gender or religion. That's what I'm asking. I mean clearly there are muslims attacking westerners, should we be able to have a meeting where we ban muslims so we can discuss terrorism? Seems like your answer is yes. Which I'm arguing is crazy racist.
Whataboutism at its finest.
GhostTrick
Banned
You actually did. Maybe you don't realize you did but mammoth very clearly asked that and you said yes. Anyway.
Who said the countries are the same? All people are saying is clearly the French Black Feminists have some shit they wanna talk about by themselves and we should just respect that.
It's not really relevant a question. If they wanna have a black people only discussion and they arrived at wanting that group specifcally than they have their reasons. And I'm not going to argue that their reasons are wrong. Shrug. If you wanna die on the hill that the black feminist are wrong then go ahead. It's just this weird ass ideal where you think that whatever discussion they are having you believe theoretically other people would definitely enchance it. It's just dumb.
You don't even know what they are gonna talk about and you're already sure they got it wrong.
No, Mammuth said about exporting views. Which I said, yes, US GAF is seeing it with their American views, which I understand.
Then again, you're arguing over nothing. I never said they shouldnt be allowed in private space, I said that, in reaction to someone else's post, that yes, other had things to add, because no, intersection between sexism and racism isnt unique to black women in France as that poster claimed.
And please, dont change the roles. I'm not the one arguing others would have nothing to add. But you would know about that, if you were French. It's not dumb to claim that the actual climate in France isnt the same as America. I mean, I'm actually french you know.
The issue is green lighting the categorization of people as good or bad based on superficial things like race gender or religion.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of a person's soul and this irrelevant appeal to "good" and "bad" honestly does nothing but push minorities away from you and want to convene amongst themselves.
It has everything to do with a person's first-hand experience, knowledge, and point-of-view of a particular issue as can be gleaned from how the forces of a racist society have shaped the context of any given individual's life.
The very moment you recognize racism exists is the moment you recognize that people of different colors function on different social and mental wavelengths from one another, and the moment you recognize that is the moment you automatically concede this tired routine of colorblindness and instead admit everyone is not equally capable of handling the same racial issues with equal veracity and clarity all of a sudden.
It's honestly no different from disallowing a plumber to a quantum physics meet (and before you jump on me, yes; I understand a job is not an immutable characteristic of a person, but that's not the point of the metaphor). It says nothing about the character of the plumber to conclude that he's not needed in that particular place, nor of the scientists when the plumber goes and does his job.
GhostTrick
Banned
Well you don't seem to understand tbh.
None is denying the racis/sexism against Arab women.
But why are you bringing wanting Arab women into a event organized by feminists who are black?
None is saying that ONLY black women should be able to hold such talks.
You understand that right?
That everyone who is part of a marginalized group should have that right to define their struggle..
Two posters actually said that. I was arguing with them and you guys jumped at me without even following the conversation.
Why am I bringing arab women ? Because, for the 1000th time, I'm not against this event in private space, but when one poster claims other have nothing to bring to the subject, I'm answering to that person "In France, it's not about white and black".
And that person claims "Only black women suffer from both racism and sexism, hence the need of a space only for themselves"
That's where I disagree. And I dont see how it's wrong to claim I'm crazy to disagree with that. Now I can understand if you dont know about France. But can you guys please stop looking at us, french people, down like this when we actually know our country a bit more ?
The point you're missing is that, in this particular instance, French black women themselves disagree with you because they made most of the event private for most people other than black women, because they don't believe that "it's not black and white in France," nor do they believe white French people have just as much to offer the conversation as they do. So, you citing cultural issues between France and the US doesn't actually serve as a refutation because the people running this shindig actually agree with us Americans.
The point you're missing is that, in this particular instance, French black women themselves disagree with you because they made most of the event private for most people other than black women, because they don't believe that "it's not black and white in France," nor do they believe white French people have just as much to offer the conversation as they do. So, you citing cultural issues between France and the US doesn't actually serve as a refutation because the people running this shindig actually agree with us Americans.
Some french black woman activists aren't fully grasping the concept of our republic, indeed.
Some french black woman activists aren't fully grasping the concept of our republic, indeed.
Or perhaps you're not nearly as perceptive of the underlying social issues affecting French black women that actual French black women are.
Hint: This is why you probably weren't invited to the whole thing.
GhostTrick
Banned
The point you're missing is that, in this particular instance, French black women themselves disagree with you because they made most of the event private for most people other than black women, because they don't believe that "it's not black and white in France," nor do they believe white French people have just as much to offer the conversation as they do. So, you citing cultural issues between France and the US doesn't actually serve as a refutation because the people running this shindig actually agree with us Americans.
They made 80% of the festival for black women, according to their site. But then again, I have nothing against that in a private space, even though I still consider that discriminating.
Then again, you're explaining it yourself when you talk about white french people, as if there was either black french people or white french people.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
Two posters actually said that. I was arguing with them and you guys jumped at me without even following the conversation.
Why am I bringing arab women ? Because, for the 1000th time, I'm not against this event in private space, but when one poster claims other have nothing to bring to the subject, I'm answering to that person "In France, it's not about white and black".
And that person claims "Only black women suffer from both racism and sexism, hence the need of a space only for themselves"
That's where I disagree. And I dont see how it's wrong to claim I'm crazy to disagree with that. Now I can understand if you dont know about France. But can you guys please stop looking at us, french people, down like this when we actually know our country a bit more ?
Regarding Arab women:
Speaking as a PoC I understand that other PoC who don't share my background want to talk together about their specific issues.
Just like I want to talk with people who share my background.
Doesn't mean that I won't listen to them if they have a good idea or goal.
Also could you please point to anyone saying "Only black women suffer from both racism and sexism, hence the need of a space only for themselves"
And regarding understanding France: This is STILL a black feminist group in France who thought it was needed.
GhostTrick
Banned
Regarding Arab women:
Speaking as a PoC I understand that other PoC who don't share my background want to talk together about their specific issues.
Just like I want to talk with people who share my background.
Doesn't mean that I won't listen to them if they have a good idea or goal.
Also could you please point to anyone saying "Only black women suffer from both racism and sexism, hence the need of a space only for themselves"
And regarding understanding France: This is STILL a black feminist group in France who thought it was needed.
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=238536105
The point you and several others are missing is that he was replying to a post that implied that black women were the only demographics to suffer from both racism and misogyny. Which is plain wrong. Especially in France which has the highest population of people from north Africa outside of Maghreb.The point you're missing is that, in this particular instance, French black women themselves disagree with you because they made most of the event private for most people other than black women, because they don't believe that "it's not black and white," nor do they believe white people have just as much to offer the conversation as they do. So, you citing cultural issues between France and the US doesn't actually serve as a refutation because the people running this shindig actually agree with us Americans.
I don't think he ever implied that there weren't nuances between anti-blackness and other forms of racism, or that other WOC should absolutely be included, or whatever else you want to spin it as.
excelsiorlef
Member
That post specfically was talking about anti-blackness racism not all racism.
He should have made it clearer then the way the post was written it could easily be interpreted as black women were the only ones facing both racism and sexism.That post specfically was talking about anti-blackness racism not all racism.
They made 80% of the festival for black women, according to their site. But then again, I have nothing against that in a private space, even though I still consider that discriminating.
I did say they made "most" of the event private.
And yes, it's discriminatory. So are sororities and fraternities. So are gender-based sports. So are bathrooms.
Then again, you're explaining it yourself when you talk about white french people, as if there was either black french people or white french people.
If I expanded the list to more ethnicities, then it wouldn't change the underlying point which is black women feel they know more about being black women than anyone else, they're the most capable of coming up with solutions to their issues, and it's understandable why they wouldn't want to be distracted navigating the context of non black women's contributions. If you'd like to dispute that, you can go to the public portion of the festival and tell them they're wrong.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
That isn't what he said.
He talked about anti-blackness that is a particular typ of racism that manifests in specific ways.
I feel you don't understand the concept of intersectionality.
GhostTrick
Banned
That post specfically was talking about anti-blackness racism not all racism.
Well, I asked that poster and another one to clarify their words, in case I misunderstood, which they didnt and I was met with hostility.
The point you and several others are missing is that he was replying to a post that implied that black women were the only demographics to suffer from both racism and misogyny. Which is plain wrong. Especially in France which has the highest population of people from north Africa outside of Maghreb.
I don't think he ever implied that there weren't nuances between anti-blackness and other forms of racism, or that other WOC should absolutely be included, or whatever else you want to spin it as.
Having a high concentration of North Africans doesn't mean anything. Regardless, yes, that's true: black women aren't the only ones who deal with racism and misogyny. But wasn't this already amended with a clarification?
People who are not french should leave this topic because by not being french they are not capable to add something to the topic
interesting isn't it ?
French people who were offended invoked American civil rights leaders to chastise French black people.
Don't put Americans' names in your mouths if you don't want us in your business, k? K.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
People who are not french should leave this topic because by not being french they are not capable to add something to the topic
interesting isn't it ?
If by this logic it means the BLACK FRENCH FEMINISTS who decided that these strategies are valid are the ones who have the first and final say on said topic then I have no problem with that, and would indeed call it interesting.
But for some reason I doubt you really fucking care about them.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
People who are not french should leave this topic because by not being french they are not capable to add something to the topic
interesting isn't it ?
No just lazy and childish.
GhostTrick
Banned
Having a high concentration of North Africans doesn't mean anything. Regardless, yes, that's true: black women aren't the only ones who deal with racism and misogyny. But wasn't this already amended with a clarification?
French people who were offended invoked American civil rights leaders to chastise French black people.
Don't put Americans' names in your mouths if you don't want us in your business, k? K.
Quick question: Do you know about french decolonisation and Algeria War ?
Quick question: Do you know about french decolonisation and Algeria War ?
I do not.
Or perhaps you're not nearly as perceptive of the underlying social issues affecting French black women that actual French black women are.
Hint: This is why you probably weren't invited to the whole thing.
I don't talk about their issues, i talk about the fact you can't categorize people. Everyone suffers and some more than the others, and even more women versus men, and even more black versus white (and so arabs versus non-arabs, roms versus non-roms, etc etc). Minorities versus the mass.
When you're not from the norm, here in France, you suffer. It's true. But then, first thing first, our country disallow to categorize people by their gender, race, religion. It is forbidden. It is our law.
I don't know if they know better than me about their problems (hint: they should) and i can understand they wouldn't want to hear my opinion (hint: they should, i walk with them), but i think if they have a problem and want to talk publicly about it, they shouldn't begin by categorizing opinions by races/genders/religions.
GhostTrick
Banned
I do not.
Well, it does explain why the high concentration of arab population (but also black one) is important.