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[Mammoth Jones]

It depends by what you mean by that. If you mean the insults or the cliché around them, then I'd say yes.

I know this is going to sound crazy. So I mean you don't HAVE to do this. It's a little unconventional. So I mean it's up to you...but:

How about actually talking to Black people. From the US, France...all over and actually asking them. And this is the crazy part...when they respond: Listen. Trust that they might have insight you missed. Humble yourself. If only once.

 

[Nepenthe]

It depends by what you mean by that. If you mean the insults or the cliché around them, then I'd say yes.

I mean as a whole: overtly and systemically.

If what you're saying is true, you don't have racism, because the effect of racism is that different outcomes in life are statistically more likely to result between two people of the same socioeconomic background on the basis of their skin color and the historical baggage attached to that.

That can't be true if "everyone is treated the same under racism."

But you keep saying France has race issues.

So which is it? Are you guys post-racial or not?

 

[Gotdatmoney]

To which I replied, in the US, yes. But in France, because of our different landscape, shaped by decolonisation, we're pretty much in the same boat, hence why I'm not inherently against that meeting at all.

I have a very hard time believing that. But I'm also not going to actually bother that argument because frankly your opinion is irrelevant here. The Black Feminists obviously feel differently. So it's your word against theirs.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

It depends by what you mean by that. If you mean the insults or the cliché around them, then I'd say yes.

Again, have you tried to read and or look at something regarding intersectionality?
Cause like I've said before it is paramount to discussing racism.

 

[Cyframe]

Which I did. I asked you if you meant what I think you mean. And by good faith, I ask the same thing to Immortal who agreed with your post.
And if I had the right explanation, I'd have if course agreed with you because obviously, only black women suffer misoginy and anti black racism.

Well then. If Americans don't know everything about France, then it would stand to reason that non-black French people wouldn't know what it's like to be a Black French woman. And I'm not talking about you specifically here, but maybe attend a workshop(a meeting) that discusses racism and how it differs between groups. It would be valuable to anyone.

Understanding and addressing racism, xenophobia or anything relating to marginalized groups requires a lot of hard work. It's not simple.

For me, it's really distressing to see those who can look and read about civil rights globally and then use that struggle to chastise those who are organizing in the same way. How can someone look at a person who does that and be comfortable with them being an ally? Not me.

This topic is personal to me because when I talk about my own experiences with anti-black racism in the US, I get a response of "Really, that happened?." And it hurts when I see other posters say, it's not as bad as the US, like its a consolation prize.

Segregation should not be a work to describe the meeting of the marginalized. And I'm at least happy your mayor said, you know what, I didn't really have a good understanding of this and she changed her mind. A lot of people don't have that type of character and it's needed.

 

[Infinite]

If anyone cares here's a short video series about Afro French people giving personal testimonies about being black and living in France: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpwJsNR8PZ6OA49TdKBgjA1iFALTfzJih

 

[Darth Ghandi]

If anyone cares here's a short video series about Afro French people giving personal testimonies about being black and living in France: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpwJsNR8PZ6OA49TdKBgjA1iFALTfzJih

Well their problem is clearly they haven't let white people explain to them how they best should fight oppression.

/s

 

[azyless]

I know this is going to sound crazy. So I mean you don't HAVE to do this. It's a little unconventional. So I mean it's Yo to you...but:

How about actually talking to Black people. From the US, France...all over and actually asking them. And this is the crazy part...when they respond: Listen. Trust that they might have insight you missed. Humble yourself. If only once.

I hope you don't mean listening to black women the same way MWASI is listening to them as soon as they disagree with them, by saying they are "house negros", "bounty" (black outside white inside), or traitors to their race.
Frankly you're right, I'm not sure why anyone, black or white or anything in between, would be upset about missing this event, I'm not seeing much of value there.

 

[GhostTrick]

The roots, the causes, the expressions, the solutions will all vary

Well, also that, but as I said in France, the roots are rather common because of the colonial past and the banlieus.

 

[GhostTrick]

I have a very hard time believing that. But I'm also not going to actually bother that argument because frankly your opinion is irrelevant here. The Black Feminists obviously feel differently. So it's your word against theirs.

You should then read about decolonisation.

 

[Tiberius]

Cyframe there's black people who are critisizing the association for doing this "ségrégation" so maybe the subject is more complex than idiot snowflake whypipo concern trolling black people
You can fully fight racism but think that separating people is bad
I think it's a society problem and not only minority's and the way this association and a few others are dealing with it is counter productive

We won't agree here, but my point of view is not invalid because of the color of my skin

 

[Gotdatmoney]

We won't agree here, but my point of view is not invalid because of the color of my skin

No one implied that lol

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Cyframe there's black people who are critisizing the association for doing this "ségrégation" so maybe the subject is more complex than idiot snowflake whypipo concern trolling black people
You can fully fight racism but think that separating people is bad
I think it's a society problem and not only minority's and the way this association and a few others are dealing with it is counter productive

We won't agree here, but my point of view is not invalid because of the color of my skin

I would love to see the receipts for black people who criticize it.
So then we could check if they have any arguments that hold.
Posts like yours are the very fucking reason why PoC don't want allies like you.
As far as i'm concerned you are just a detriment.

 

[Tiberius]

No one implied that lol

Many did
Just look at the post of Darth Ghandi up there

 

[Captin Quacker]

Many did
Just look at the post of Darth Ghandi up there

at what point was your skin color mention in that post?

 

[Imm0rt4l]

I would love to see the receipts for black people who criticize it.
So then we could check if they have any arguments that hold.
Posts like yours are the very fucking reason why PoC don't want allies like you.
As far as i'm concerned you are just a detriment.

This.

 

[Tiberius]

I would love to see the receipts for black people who criticize it.
So then we could check if they have any arguments that hold.
Posts like yours are the very fucking reason why PoC don't want allies like you.
As far as i'm concerned you are just a detriment.

There was a post on twitter from Audrey Pulvar a black left journalist who was condemning the form of the festival

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Many did
Just look at the post of Darth Ghandi up there

The colour of your skin has nothing to do with why I don't view you as an ally.
It is that you want marginalized group not to be able to have separatist spaces.

You just want to be at the center of everything.

There was a post on twitter from Audrey Pulvar a black left journalist who was condemning the form of the festival

Ok. Fair enough. What was her argument?

 

[Tiberius]

The colour of your skin has nothing to do with why I don't view you as an ally.
It is that you want marginalized group not to be able to have separatist spaces.

You just want to be at the center of everything.

Where did i said that ?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Well, also that, but as I said in France, the roots are rather common because of the colonial past and the banlieus.

Even if they are, they're not identical and the effects, the continued causes, the expressions thereof and solutions are not.

 

[Enzom21]

Many did
Just look at the post of Darth Ghandi up there

Quote the "many" posts?

 

[GhostTrick]

Even if they are, they're not identical and the effects, the continued causes, the expressions thereof and solutions are not.

Oh trust me, a lot of the hate we get is related to this.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Oh trust me, a lot of the hate we get is related to this.

Do you even read what others write?

There is not one catch-all approach. There is not one catch-all experience.


It's like you're trying to colour blind racism... which is just bizarre.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

If anyone cares here's a short video series about Afro French people giving personal testimonies about being black and living in France: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLpwJsNR8PZ6OA49TdKBgjA1iFALTfzJih

Video 1, 8m40s is some profound shit that some in this thread need to hear.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Where did i said that ?

Your track record in this thread.
I firmly believe that people are upset by separatist talks/groups since they are so used to every topic being relevant to them.

You and GhostTrick are the perfect embodiment of that sentiment.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I hope you don't mean listening to black women the same way MWASI is listening to them as soon as they disagree with them, by saying they are "house negros", "bounty" (black outside white inside), or traitors to their race.
Frankly you're right, I'm not sure why anyone, black or white or anything in between, would be upset about missing this event, I'm not seeing much of value there.

If I meant that I would have said it straight up.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Video 1, 8m40s is some profound shit that some in this thread need to hear.

Great stuff, thanks to the one posting it, thanks to you for underlining this part

 

[Nepenthe]

It still amazes me that we're even discussing this when the mayor was checked and said it was fine, that previously good ol' sensible mayor standing up to American imperialism and the evils of segregation.

 

[GhostTrick]

Do you even read what others write?

There is not one catch-all approach. There is not one catch-all experience.


It's like you're trying to colour blind racism... which is just bizarre.

No, it's just that we share a common past as children of immigrants of ex-french colonies.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Many did
Just look at the post of Darth Ghandi up there

He's being snarky for sure but that really isn't his point.

A lot of people don't actually get that it isn't "just" about tossing ideas around though. There is an aspect of building an environment of comfort. It doesn't matter how good your ideas are or your intention is if your presense makes people feel uneasy.

I gave the example before but for instance, I don't engage in debates about racism outside of minority groups in my regular life. It is not because I think non minorities don't have good ideas, it's because debates on this topic can get heated and maintaining personal relationships matters to me more than speaking freely. I'm not gonna speak my mind in certain environments for a multitude of reasons. It is not that you think these people have worthless opinions.

I don't feel some type of way if women want to discuss aspects of sexual assault on college campuses in a male free environment. It's not a fuck men sentiment. It's a "I dont feel I can speak freely" sentiment.

 

[Enzom21]

Where did i said that ?

"We won't agree here, but my point of view is not invalid because of the color of my skin"

You think that scary brilliant opinion of yours is being ignored simply because of the color of your skin and not because it is a terrible opinion.

"I'm not wrong, everyone else is but they just won't listen because I am not black!"

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Well, also that, but as I said in France, the roots are rather common because of the colonial past and the banlieus.

That's a bit too surface level.

There's historical reason as to why some cases differ from others.

As you said the colonial past is a common trait to most black and north African people. However in that there's the special place of Algeria with it being an actual french department until 1962 which involved a big Independence War. The issue of the pieds noirs (french white which settled down in Algeria) is pretty much exclusive to Algeria. This can lead to resentment from pieds noir descendant toward french with Algerian origin. I mean you just have to look at what happened when Macron rightfully stated that french colonisation was a crime against humanity.

That's just one exemple of specific historical event which lead or reinforced racism towards a specific portion of minorities.

There's also the specific situation of DOM-TOM (Guyane, Guadeloupe, La Réunion and Martinique) which are primarily black and suffer from chronic unemployment.

Antisemitism is also something to look at and that has nothing to do with either the colonial past and the banlieue.

Let's add the fact that all those minority can and often are racist to each other based on religion or skin colour and you have an highly complex map of racism in France.

 

[Tiberius]

Your track record in this thread.
I firmly believe that people are upset by separatist talks/groups since they are so used to every topic being relevant to them.

You and GhostTrick are the perfect embodiment of that sentiment.

you're pushing your bias on me ...
The discussion is impossible apparently, sad ...

 

[excelsiorlef]

No, it's just that we share a common past as children of immigrants of ex-french colonies.

Commonality is not identicality

You're saying absolutely nothing

 

[GhostTrick]

That's a bit too surface level.

There's historical reason as to why some cases differ from others.

As you said the colonial past is a common trait to most black and north African people. However in that there's the special place of Algeria with it being an actual french department until 1962 which involved a big Independence War. The issue of the pieds noirs (french white which settled down in Algeria) is pretty much exclusive to Algeria. This can lead to resentment from pieds noir descendant toward french with Algerian origin. I mean you just have to look at what happened when Macron rightfully stated that french colonisation was a crime against humanity.

That's just one exemple of specific historical event which lead or reinforced racism towards a specific portion of minorities.

There's also the specific situation of DOM-TOM (Guyane, Guadeloupe, La Réunion and Martinique) which are primarily black and suffer from chronic unemployment.

Antisemitism is also something to look at and that has nothing to do with either the colonial past and the banlieue.

Let's add the fact that all those minority can and often are racist to each other based on religion or skin colour and you have an highly complex map of racism in France.

Well yes, you are right, DOM TOM are also another matter considering people here have been french for centuries and are still treated as second class citizen because of their skin color.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Mass_Pincup, If you want to find the missing link between colonialism and european antisemitism, you need to read Fanon

 

[Imm0rt4l]

This thread is insufferable

 

[Darth Ghandi]

you're pushing your bias on me ...
The discussion is impossible apparently, sad ...

Just calling a spade a spade.
You aren't an ally.

This thread is insufferable

My favorite part is that people who claim to be against racism don't and have no interest in learning about topics that really break this stuff down.
I have asked them several times about intersectionality and I am time and again met with silence.

 

[GhostTrick]

Your track record in this thread.
I firmly believe that people are upset by separatist talks/groups since they are so used to every topic being relevant to them.

You and GhostTrick are the perfect embodiment of that sentiment.

In what way, tell me.

 

[royalan]

This thread is insufferable

Yep. And so lacking in self-awareness.

I mean, look through this thread. You don't even have to read it all, just a few pages. Look at all the posters jumping in half-cocked. Throwing around false equivalencies and whataboutisms. Desperately trying to counter a sense of persecution with their own sense of persecution. Arguing in bad faith and, in some cases, just blatantly trolling.

Now imagine you're a black activist/social group trying to hold an event with a set agenda, and the same shit happens. People see a group of minorities gathering, assume the gathering is for them and their half-cocked opinions, and charge in and completely derail the agenda. Next thing you know, two hours have gone by, people are pissed, and nothing has been accomplished.

Congrats, you guys have just played out exactly why minority groups want events like these to be private.

 

[TestOfTide]

Cyframe there's black people who are critisizing the association for doing this "ségrégation" so maybe the subject is more complex than idiot snowflake whypipo concern trolling black people
You can fully fight racism but think that separating people is bad
I think it's a society problem and not only minority's and the way this association and a few others are dealing with it is counter productive

We won't agree here, but my point of view is not invalid because of the color of my skin

Buddy, don't pull the "my side's not racist because we have a few black friends arguing our point" nonsense. That's basically the cousin to "I'm not racist cuz I have a black friend" argument, which is so tired and old that it was literally debunked by Malcom X in the 60s.

No one is claiming that France's racism and sexism issues are EXACTLY the same as they are in the US, however if you want to actually approach this conversation honestly, you need to acknowledge a few things:

1) Just like how in the US northern racism takes a different form than Southern Racism. So too does European racism take a different form than US racism. And just like how that doesn't mean the northern US is free of racism issues, Europe isn't free of racism issues either.

2) 2015 and 2016 were years in which racism, fascism, bigotry, and xenophobia were on a very scary rise across the globe, particularly across the western world, now luckily 2017 has become somewhat of a backlash year against that, but to truly defeat those horrible trends, we have to understand and tackle those issues not just in the US but across the western world.

3) Telling minority protesters/organizing that they are protesting/organizing wrong and thus their protests/events are bad is such a tired, old, and predictable tactic. The exact same shit was pulled to try to undermine the civil rights and feminist movements in the 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

In what way, tell me.

Well you clearly aren't speaking in the same terms as people addressing you.
We speak of terms like intersectionality.
I and several posters have explained this from a intersectional perspective how and why separatist group can be favorable.
And you have yet to tell me your thoughts on intersectionality.
I would argue that if you don't know intersectionality you have very little to bring to this topic.

You try and move the focus from being about the black french feminist group and their choices regarding how they will deal with issues.
Thats is why you aren't an ally.

The fucked part is how people like you say "but that is wrong, someone else may have something to contribute.

So I am left with watching you chastise WoC on behalf of a fantasy person with a fantasy opinion.

That is why I won't consider you an ally.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Yep. And so lacking in self-awareness.

I mean, look through this thread. You don't even have to read it all, just a few pages. Look at all the posters jumping in half-cocked. Throwing around false equivalencies and whataboutisms. Desperately trying to counter a sense of persecution with their own sense of persecution. Arguing in bad faith and, in some cases, just blatantly trolling.

Now imagine you're a black activist/social group trying to hold an event with a set agenda, and the same shit happens. People see a group of minorities gathering, assume the gathering is for them and their half-cocked opinions, and charge in and completely derail the agenda. Next thing you know, two hours have gone by, people are pissed, and nothing has been accomplished.

Congrats, you guys have just played out exactly why minority groups want events like these to be private.

In France, the usuals comments around this issue are far worst than what you get in this thread. Another validation of the will of those organizer to keep some discussions private.

I mean, do you really want to speak about racism with someone who would say thing like "We all come from Africa originally you know", "Blacks were sold by their own people as slaves", "Why being white pride is racist while being black pride is not?", "You can't deny that colonization had it's good sides", "If you're part white, you are your own oppressor, and how can you speak about slavery?". . .
Education is important, but it's natural to want to have a safespace from all those baloneys to be able to share experience and strength one up before facing those constant reactions.

 

[GhostTrick]

Well you clearly aren't speaking in the same terms as people addressing you.
We speak of terms like intersectionality.
I and several posters have explained this from a intersectional perspective how and why separatist group can be favorable.

You try and move the focus from being about the black french feminist group and their choices regarding how they will deal with issues.
Thats is why you aren't an ally.

The fucked part is how people like you say "but that is wrong, someone else may have something to contribute.

So I am left with watching you chastise WoC on behalf of a fantasy person with a fantasy opinion.

That is why I won't consider you an ally.

No, no no and no. And I must say it again for the 1000th time: In a private space, I have no reason to be against that. Do I feel, personnaly, it's a bit discriminating ? Yes, but as I also said, I can see why they want their own space.

When I said "Someone else may have something to contribute", it's when I thought, mistakingly, Cyforme claimed others had nothing to add because racism and sexism is only a concern of black women (when they meant anti-black racism).

 

[Imm0rt4l]

In France, the usuals comments around this issue are far worst than what you get in this thread. Another validation of the will of those organizer to keep some discussions private.

I mean, do you really want to speak about racism with someone who would say thing like "We all come from Africa originally you know", "Blacks were sold by their own people as slaves", "Why being white pride is racist while being black pride is not?", "You can't deny that colonization had it's good sides", "If you're part white, you are your own oppressor, and how can you speak about slavery?". . .
Education is important, but it's natural to want to have a safespace from all those baloneys

Word


And I second the suggestion to read fanon

 

[Darth Ghandi]

No, no no and no. And I must say it again for the 1000th time: In a private space, I have no reason to be against that. Do I feel, personnaly, it's a bit discriminating ? Yes, but as I also said, I can see why they want their own space.

When I said "Someone else may have something to contribute", it's when I thought, mistakingly, Cyforme claimed others had nothing to add because racism and sexism is only a concern of black women (when they meant anti-black racism).

Yep, and discrimination is a part of life. (toilets locker rooms)
The fact that you find it a bother IS interesting.


So you gonna dodge the question about intersectionality again?

 

[D i Z]

Some wild shit going on in here.

 

[Derwind]

I love that were still having a discussion whether or not anyone is being discriminated because a black-feminist festival has a private workshop catering to those same black-feminist attendees individual & shared experiences.

 

[GhostTrick]

Yep, and discrimination is a part of life. (toilets locker rooms)
The fact that you find it a bother IS interesting.


So you gonna dodge the question about intersectionality again?

Why is it interesting ? I said a bit, I didnt meant "Oh god this wont let me sleep at night this musnt be allowed"
And I feel like I answered about intersectionality, hence why I said I can see their need for such an event, held privately.

 

[Cyframe]

Cyframe there's black people who are critisizing the association for doing this "ségrégation" so maybe the subject is more complex than idiot snowflake whypipo concern trolling black people
You can fully fight racism but think that separating people is bad
I think it's a society problem and not only minority's and the way this association and a few others are dealing with it is counter productive

We won't agree here, but my point of view is not invalid because of the color of my skin

It's invalid, not because of your skin color but because of your analogy. You are comparing systems of oppression to the marginalized meeting with each other. It's ridiculous. And I would also have a few words with Black people who had your same viewpoint.

When I get called nigger, white people can feel bad, feel hurt, feel concern for me, but it's nothing like living it. Hearing someone use that word and you can see the complete hatred in their eyes. That's an awful experience. When I want to have a heart to heart about racism, it's gonna be with other Black people. That ain't segregation.

Of course, there are venues where I do discuss this with white people and other races, but holding a meeting among groups being called segregation or even making the problem worse is laughable.

Every space isn't for everyone and that's not malice. When I was 5ish, My mom told me, I'm going to a baby shower and I couldn't go with her. I asked her why and she said, it's just gonna be women with an expecting mother sharing baby gifts. I understood that, at 5. Is that segregation? I don't think so.

No, no no and no. And I must say it again for the 1000th time: In a private space, I have no reason to be against that. Do I feel, personnaly, it's a bit discriminating ? Yes, but as I also said, I can see why they want their own space.

When I said "Someone else may have something to contribute", it's when I thought, mistakingly, Cyforme claimed others had nothing to add because racism and sexism is only a concern of black women (when they meant anti-black racism).

Just to add further clarification, personal experience is unique in that it cannot be read or viewed, only personally experienced. There is a great value to conversations with those that have the same personal firsthand experiences. Others outside that group may feel very strongly, but they can't relate personally on that one axis. How can a person add something when a question in such venues is As a Black woman, how is your life with racism and sexism? Unless you are a Black woman, you can't answer that question. And for others, the next question to ask themselves is, why would you want to take away that personal experience with other Black women (not talking about you here, just using our conversation as an example)?