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[Josh7289]

Yeah, I'm curious what they think about the crazy polarized reaction from players worldwide.

Personally, I love the game, so I hope they keep in this kind of style. Agito and Versus XIII look similarly fast-paced stylish action, so I'm really excited for them.

 

[Zaptruder]

1. Make for PCs
2. Dumb down for consoles
3. Profit

No mystery step.

 

[Kagari]

I agree unfortunately. The only stuff we'll get that are not pseudo-Western stuff nowadays are from Atlus, Level-5, Sega, and miscellaneous niche developers/publishers (NIS).

I just wish Japanese companies would stick to making games that they're good at (or at least expanding their demographics nicely and properly). Square and Enix are known for Japanese RPGs, not really for shooters (looks at GunLoco).

At least Nomura's teams tend to stick to what they're good at. And basically anything Square is making on handhelds these days.

 

[Rahxephon91]

At least Nomura's teams tend to stick to what they're good at. .

And that is? Making stories that make even XIII's look good?

 

[Skilletor]

I would think the producers/devs of Agito and Versus constantly mentioning towns and maps would be a sign that SE at least heard some people griping about FF13.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Yeah, I'm curious what they think about the crazy polarized reaction from players worldwide.

At this point, they're pretty much fucked no matter what they do. 11, 12 and 13 all split the fanbase. Final Fantasy no longer has a set direction. XV could be an RTS for all we know.

That isn't to say they can't make better design decisions, but it's pretty much guaranteed a huge section of their fans will be pissed with each new installment.

 

[PandaPandaPanda]

I would think the producers/devs of Agito and Versus constantly mentioning towns and maps would be a sign that SE at least heard some people griping about FF13.

If FF14 is any indication i'd say that's not likely. Players of FF11 criticized/whined/pleaded for Square-Enix to make changes to the game to make the game more accessible and instead of fixing the content in question just made new content instead which still didn't remedy the issue in the first place. Whether it was system limitations or the fact that they didn't give a crap will remain unknown. But the fact remains that the things they "learned" and I use that term loosely things from the many years FF11 has been running are absent in FF14. Players might argue that it can turn out into a good game but I don't think anyone will disagree that the game is a complete mess right now.

 

[BocoDragon]

I agree unfortunately. The only stuff we'll get that are not pseudo-Western stuff nowadays are from Atlus, Level-5, Sega, and miscellaneous niche developers/publishers (NIS).

I just wish Japanese companies would stick to making games that they're good at (or at least expanding their demographics nicely and properly). Square and Enix are known for Japanese RPGs, not really for shooters (looks at GunLoco).

I think, somehow, us western players need to inform the Japanese that "finding the western audience" is bullshit. This message needs to be communicated to them somehow.

Would anyone oppose this movement? Is anyone happy with the direction Square (and similar Japanese companies) have taken? No. Because that audience does not exist.

Focus tests are crap. It's like asking someone what would surprise them... They don't know! Make your own crazy shit and then show it to us. You might, you know, create a new audience.

 

[HK-47]

This waterfall design strategy's affects are not over. We are gonna see it in a Versus post mortem and we will probably see it in a XIV post mortem. The XIII team and the XIV probably thought they could do a better job than the XII team while ignoring larger issues in how they developed games that XII clearly showed (the post mortem on XII lists eeriely similar problem to the XIII one). Its certainly a big reason why KHIII has been pushed back in favor of smaller handhelds releases.
I mean not having a working prototype until the fucking Complete demo? Doing global focus testing but it being to late to implement any of it? Horrible.

 

[Rahxephon91]

Ok ,but does an audience still exists for primarily Japanese centric games? One that can sustain these companies? I don't know, but I'm sure there are cases on each side. I think western influence and targeting may end up good, its just these are the growing pains. Just because the audience doesn't exist doesn't mean you should turn back and not cultivate it. Just because it's bad now, dosent mean give up. Square is trying and if they should do anything its take more influence from Edios into their game development. Bring in some western people into your internal studios. Case in point MGS4. The best example of how a Japanese game could go with western influence. Well not the best, but maybe you can see where I'm coming from.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I think, somehow, us western players need to inform the Japanese that "finding the western audience" is bullshit. This message needs to be communicated to them somehow.

Would anyone oppose this movement? Is anyone happy with the direction Square (and similar Japanese companies) have taken? No. Because that audience does not exist.

Focus tests are crap. It's like asking someone what would surprise them... They don't know! Make your own crazy shit and then show it to us. You might, you know, create a new audience.

The "Don't westernize your games, Japan" movement would be awesome if it was actually possible to pull off. Unfortunately, the companies that try to appeal to the mainstream and not forums won't listen. They will continue to take the western approach rather than sticking with what they're good at outside of awesome devs like Atlus.

 

[Wazzim]

I think they did a good job overall, stop being so harsh on them.

 

[HK-47]

I am curious as to what sort of 'western players' they had in this focus group.

According to some info I saw, westerners hated the characters and story but like the battle system. JP players liked the story/characters more.

So clearly sane people.

 

[Josh7289]

At this point, they're pretty much fucked no matter what they do. 11, 12 and 13 all split the fanbase. Final Fantasy no longer has a set direction. XV could be an RTS for all we know.

That isn't to say they can't make better design decisions, but it's pretty much guaranteed a huge section of their fans will be pissed with each new installment.

Hm, I see. That's a good point. While everyone has their opinions on the various FFs from the NES, SNES, and PS1 days (including 10?), they were all pretty similar to each other within each group, and even between groups, with the only big gameplay change being the addition and refinement (or removal in 10) of the active time battle system.

But from 11 on... they're all so different. And 14 is just bad. It's kind of hard to see how they might be able to pick a direction for the series. Maybe they'll just keep doing what they have been and really change it up with each game, but that's risky, and if everyone comes to really dislikes some particular FF game it might hurt the FF name in general.

Oh and I said I love 13, but I'll also add that I really disliked 12 and don't find the typical combat systems in MMOs very appealing, so I stayed away from 11. So those recent ones are pretty polarizing, love it or hate it deals with me, too. As for the previous FFs, I think they're are all good enough RPGs, though I pretty much don't have the time or inclination to sink hours into them anymore.

 

[HK-47]

I think they did a good job overall, stop being so harsh on them.

Whether or not you like the content, it doesnt change the fact that their development process for large projects is all sorts of fucked up.

 

[Dresden]

They should just have me test their games. I'd make them billions.

 

[badcrumble]

I hope they can resolve some of their crippling pipeline issues before next gen comes along and discombobulates them all over again.

 

[tino]

This whole thing is just so, so wrong. This whole Japanese dev "figuring out what the western audience wants" thing is a disaster on so many levels. In response to a very real threat from the west, this doctrine of 'seeking western appeal' just digs their own graves further.

The thing is, when Square was popular in the west, it was never that it 'appealed to western tastes'. It was always perceived as foreign, an import. It was like sushi. Not at all western. But nonetheless, with the right game and marketing, FF7/sushi could still be a rather mainstream hit.

The thing is, if you focus test a game in the west, they'll tell you they want a game with Nascar, Bruce Willis and Megan Fox. Screw the mainstream opinion! You can't be that and you shouldn't try to be.

But the thing is, with a company like Square, these days, they'll fuck up even understanding the Nascar/Willis/Fox game. They'll get it hopele
ssly wrong. And then later, they'll totally spin (lie) about how this illusory "american audience" perceieves it. It's bullshit all the way through. It ends up being games made for an audience which doesn't exist.

/rant

Exactly, does anyone inside SE even realise FF13 is bad Sushi? Nothing in this article convince me that their next game will be good.

 

[Rahxephon91]

Exactly, does anyone inside SE even realise FF13 is bad Sushi? Nothing in this article convince me that their next game will be good.

How can they realize something that isn't true?

If you mean realize that FFXIII is a flawed ,but good game. Yes I believe they do. They have already made comments about how future games would be improved in certain areas.

 

[Colocho]

I wonder how many subpar Final Fantasies Square can make before people actually stop getting ridiculously hyped for this once great franchise.

People still go batshit insane for the Sonic franchise despite the fact that only the 3 first three games in the series were actually any good (or great even), so I think this is a franchise that will never die down considering it has a pretty good track record so far.

 

[Rahxephon91]

But they clearly misunderstand what players like and dislike about the game. What makes anyone think they'll do better in the successor to FF13?

With FF fans I don't think anyone can understand what they like and dislike.

I can't honestly give you an answer. For me my problems are small and since Square seems to be addressing that "world" problem, I'll be pretty fine. If you have lost faith, I honestly don't know what to tell you. All I can hope is that Square takes a good long look at XIII and figures out what to do. I don't exactly think XIII's problems lie in them misunderstanding. X was really popular and VII. Coupled with that fact and technical problems and you have XIII. I honestly could see how Square could see that as what a FF fan would want, or at least not be to turned off to. Likewise XII is seemingly disliked by fans. As for not knowing exactly what western fans would want, shouldn't that be a moot issue for most of you?

XIII dosen't tell me that Square has lost at its talent at making games its fans want. XIII tells me that they have some problems on the tech level and management level that needs to be addressed. That actually looks like it is though.

 

[FLEABttn]

This whole thing is just so, so wrong. This whole Japanese dev "figuring out what the western audience wants" thing is a disaster on so many levels. In response to a very real threat from the west, this doctrine of 'seeking western appeal' just digs their own graves further.

The thing is, when Square was popular in the west, it was never that it 'appealed to western tastes'. It was always perceived as foreign, an import. It was like sushi. Not at all western. But nonetheless, with the right game and marketing, FF7/sushi could still be a rather mainstream hit.

The thing is, if you focus test a game in the west, they'll tell you they want a game with Nascar, Bruce Willis and Megan Fox. Screw the mainstream opinion! You can't be that and you shouldn't try to be.

But the thing is, with a company like Square, these days, they'll fuck up even understanding the Nascar/Willis/Fox game. They'll get it hopelessly wrong. And then later, they'll totally spin (lie) about how this illusory "american audience" perceieves it. It's bullshit all the way through. It ends up being games made for an audience which doesn't exist.

/rant

The tastes of gamers wax and wane. 60fps on consoles was hyped last gen, but now gamers on the whole no longer seem to care if it's 60 fps anymore and want more eye candy. Similarly, the import feeling that the Final Fantasy's supposedly had that was a good part of their appeal frankly doesn't necessarily work in its favor anymore. And from the comments I see and hear, seems to work against it.

People can sit back and say "stop trying to appeal to American desires", but that's a great way to have a poor selling game if you have a Final Fantasy-type budget, especially how un-receptive Japan has been to this console generation. You can't ignore the people who will dictate through sales if your game is popular or not.

 

[Rahxephon91]

With this game it's easy:

1. There's very little exploration. Put in cities, towns, places to explore. A key defining element of every Final Fantasy is exploration and sidequesting.
2. Make the "run to the next cutscene" structure less obvious.
3. If you're going to make the game use a similar structure to a game that came out almost ten years ago, evolve it, don't devolve it. FF13 is nothing but a straight line aside from Pulse, FF10 considerably less so.

Every single person I know in real life who has played FF13 disliked it or felt it was horrifically average. This goes for online as well, though there are people who seem to love it, they are one in ten. Typically, most FF fans like the latest entry, or at least love it. Only few FF titles have been panned as much as 13: 10-2 (undeservedly) and the recent 14.

When looking at FF13 it's quite easy where they went wrong: they took out every single defining aspect the series has ever had, unless cutscenes is one area you've identified FF with, of course.

1.FF has always been linear and the most previous linear FF was also very popular. It's true though that towns and cities are needed ,but I feel Square knows that and probably wanted to do it. Time and tech stopped that. It seems tech wont stop them next time. As for big exploration. Not sure that's needed. The previous FF that's big on it also seems to be hated by the fandom, compare to the previous FF that downplayed it the most before XIII.

2. Well that would tie into 1 and I agree. I feel that since tech is down now and management is looking to be improved, this area will also be improved.

 

[BocoDragon]

Similarly, the import feeling that the Final Fantasy's supposedly had that was a good part of their appeal frankly doesn't necessarily work in its favor anymore. And from the comments I see and hear, seems to work against it.

Maybe, but I don't see a west that is suddenly ignoring Japanese-style tastes... I see a Japan that, somewhere along the way, got the message that because western FPS and Bioware exist, and sell big numbers, they have to change their ways QUICK for the HD gaming space. It's this changed, "fake Western" Japanese gaming that isn't a hit with anyone.

It's not as if Japanese devs just kept putting out PS2-style games on PS3. If they had, I'd argue Japanese gaming would be seen as continually successful. What happened is that their main focus switched to handhelds around 2005, and in the console space, as soon as they hit HD consoles, they thought they had to copy Gears of War and Halo for whatever reason. Maybe the tech blew their minds, and they decided to drop it all and adopt western ways... but I don't think the MARKET decided that.

They switched their strategy ("copy the west") before the need to switch was proven by the marketplace.

Street Fighter 4 was totally wacky Japanese. And yet, it penetrated the heart of the west very easily. The impetus for the game was internal Japanese interest. No one had any mind to make a game specifically for the west, and yet it worked there. That's how its done. One of the few exceptions this gen.

 

[Wazzim]

Whether or not you like the content, it doesnt change the fact that their development process for large projects is all sorts of fucked up.

Sure but they still did their best, understand what went wrong and will probably improve later on. No reason to bash the game as much as some people do.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Sure but they still did their best, understand what went wrong

That wouldn't affect how I felt about the final product. Plenty of people have "tried their best" on various things, that doesn't necessarily give them a free pass on any criticism.

 

[kinoki]

The place I felt they went wrong was that it's far too repetitive. Most other games mix things up with stuff like the card games and opera events. Everything in FFXIII is running corridors on end to the next cutscene--even the open world questing is structured the same.

 

[Aaron]

The devs should play Mass Effect 2. It's the closest to a Final Fantasy game any western RPG has ever been in its structure and story telling. It's not really an open world game, but has the sort of breathing room an RPG needs. I'm not suggesting they adopt the real time battle system, but in terms of overall game structure it would achieve their goals but feel far less rigid.

 

[SlipperySlope]

1.FF has always been linear and the most previous linear FF was also very popular. It's true though that towns and cities are needed ,but I feel Square knows that and probably wanted to do it. Time and tech stopped that. It seems tech wont stop them next time. As for big exploration. Not sure that's needed. The previous FF that's big on it also seems to be hated by the fandom, compare to the previous FF that downplayed it the most before XIII.

2. Well that would tie into 1 and I agree. I feel that since tech is down now and management is looking to be improved, this area will also be improved.

Never played 6? You should give it a try. The second half of the game is nothing but sidequests, and you can beat the game without even rediscovering half of your team. Heck, if you make a mistake, one of your members will be dead. Forever.

The older games also had quite a bit of exploration. What with the overworld and all.

Even in FF1, you can get the crystals out of order. My first time through, I accidentally got the fire crystal before the earth crystal. There's tons of optional things you can do in just about every FF game not named 13 or 11. From getting the Excalibur in 4 and visiting the world of monsters. Fighting the Weapons in 7 and getting Knights of the Round. Exploration and discovery was always a staple of the series.

Will the next FF have an overworld? That will probably determine whether I buy it or not.

 

[jeremy1456]

FF has always been linear.

You have no idea what you're talking about so just stop now.

If you want to get technical all FF games have you going from point A to B, but in all before X there were things to do in between, even if you're just exploring every nook and cranny of an overworld or the various town areas.

 

[Rahxephon91]

You have no idea what you're talking about so just stop now.

If you want to get technical all FF games have you going from point A to B, but in all before X there were things to do in between, even if you're just exploring every nook and cranny of an overworld or the various town areas.

I have no idea what I'm talking about? ok. I've played about every main FF to a point and they are linear. All the above posted are illusions of open design, something that FFXIII dosen't have and may effect your enjoyment of it. Sure you can chose two find all your characters in the world of ruin or not, the game still will a linear experience leading to the same place, oh I just won't have some of the pointless characters out of a party of 14. If I'm going to end up at the same place with little change that's pretty linear. No one is saying that XIII dosen't take it to the extreme. What I'm saying is that XIII being a linear game is not some out of nowhere occurrence. Yes they all had pointless minigames in between then and world building exercises that XIII lacks. FF has always had linearity when it came to its main campaign. Hell for most of these games the openness only comes at a certain part. These games aren't exactly go anywhere do anything you want games and that's says linear to me. Sure sidequests are there, but they are small diversions that don't change mostly anything in the campaign that for the most part in all FFs is linear.

By the way, I'm not saying every FF is a corridor like XIII or lacks explanation. I agree with Himuro that such things are missing. I don't agree that exploration is a needed or even defining feature of FF at least now. X seems pretty popular to me and before XIII that was the FF lacking the most in both areas. Compared to XII, which seems to be hated for some reason.


Perhaps you should stop, because obviously you have no idea what anyone is actually saying. But it's pretty pointless trying to talk to you since in your words its not rational to like these new FFs.

 

[Eliciel]

What should Sqaure Enix improve on that game?

Graphics?
no, I'm fine with that

Soundtrack?
hell no, one of the best in the series

Story?
Maybe try to re-evaluate the faults that were made. There are a bunch of people that say the same things about the story of FF 8. I love FF 8. So it is a matter of taste whether you like the story or not. But in the end some problems could have been avoided.

Storytelling?
That's clearly a matter of taste. There are people who like reading Harry Potter. I personally hate that book, because it is full of little details I don't want to hear. And it is the same with games. No matter what you do there are people who won't like your narrative style. That is really hard to evaluate. Same thing as FF 6...7 ..8...9...10. Nearly no one will agree which one is the best (yeah and 6 is not my favourite, it's 8 and 9).

Battlesystem?
It was at least more demanding than anything I've seen before. I never felt bored I was always in action (..get ready for Odin ). The only flaw to it was, that I love to control every character on his own. But I am not creative enough to think of sth. that could solve this problem. It would just get too complicated chaining the whole team with commands over and over again. (No Gambit pls. I hate gambit)

So in the end for me there are 2-3 things that could be improved. And Square Enix should exactly evaluate their faults. But in the end it is a matter of taste maybe there are some people out there who loved the storytelling and hated the gameplay? Who knows...

What I clearly don't accept is the "fault" of linearity? If it serves the story everything is fine with that. The question about how much linearity is needed is indeed a good one. And the criticism about variety is also legitimate. But FF was always for the most part linear and I loved it because of that. And the worst FF in the series for me is FF XII and yes I've played all FF games.


If you worked for Sqaure Enix, what would YOU try to do to improve the game in general?

 

[Rad-]

To this day I'm baffled why they ditched so many of XII's ideas. Semi open world? Check. Kickass battle system? Check. Full class customization? Check.

 

[syoaran]

Sounds like they needed a Japanese speaking, heavily experience QA/Social tester to give them advice on international needs throughout the development cycle.

I'll keep my phone on me today just for you, Square-Enix

 

[RiotPelaaja]

I love the post-mortems, but they can be really hit and miss with some dev's really being honest about what went wrong and then you get something like this FFXIII post-mortem, which really doesnt reveal much at all. Still, I know how difficult it is to get these post-mortems, so big ups to the crew at Game Developer Mag and Gamasutra too.

 

[Pooya]

It is mentioned in the article that they've shipped 5.8m copies worldwide, last time we heard from Square-Enix financial report was 5.55m back in May.
they conclude it as "great success".

 

[ULTROS!]

It will more-or-less do the same amount as FFX.

 

[Pooya]

They will eventually release a greatest hits/platinum hits/best version and by then it will surpass 6 million, Wada wasn't crazy after all :lol .

 

[StealthGoblin]

I bought the digital version.

Regarding the 360 port, the decision was made around end of 2007 but actual 360 port development didn't actually begin until early 2009.

Interesting. So essentially they didn't give the PS3 a chance to gain momentum before making a decision. The decision about Versus could have been made back then and they could have been lying to us all this time.

 

[Pooya]

There is no mention of 360 port or when they made the decision in the article, in fact there is no mention of 360 in the article at all.

 

[borghe]

In my experience... it's nearly universally hated.

anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, etc

I'm actually finishing up my first play through of it right now. Overall I'd say it's a pretty mixed bag, but with more right than wrong. The battle engine is absolutely brilliant. IMHO easily one of the most engaging and active battle systems in a Final Fantasy since I've been playing (I've been gaming since before I, but my first real exposure was "III"). Audio is amazing, and visuals in terms of "omfg freaky japanese anime shit" is for the most part awe inspiring and well put together. The worst parts for me are the lack of exploring or discovery through chapter 10 at least so far (and I've heard the game opens up now as far as exploring, but 20 hours in is WAAYY too late to redeem that flaw), the "walking through a hallway" syndrome so to speak, the god awful story (I would almost say this could be filed under "Something too japanese but it should be left that way", but from what I understand the japanese thought the story was awful also), and umm.. maybe that's all that's cringe worthy for me.

actually I will lodge one complaint about the battle system.. the concept behind it is fresh and fun, however because they take direct action away from the player and instead use more of a management interface, all of the variety of upgrades to crystarium basically become similar incremental battle speed upgrades (or keeping up with enemy strength as the case may be). at least through chapter 10 so far, there are really never any new concepts added to battle, instead using most of the same paradigms you've been able to put together since the beginning.

anyway, if I had to rate it on a strict 10 point scale I'd give it a 6. there's never been enough to question "why am I even playing this", but outside of the visuals, audio and battle system there hasn't been much in it I love. Granted those things are pretty important, and thus the above average score..

so yeah... kind of the worst final fantasy, but not at all universally hated... just way under realized. Throw in an overworld, a sensible story, and give a little more sense of progression in combat as your characters advance and this IMHO could have been one of the best in the series.

 

[StealthGoblin]

There is no mention of 360 port or when they made the decision in the article, in fact there is no mention of 360 in the article at all.

I wonder why they didn't include that decision process in there.

By the looks of this article. . .it sounds like SquareEnix barely knew what they were doing.

 

[ULTROS!]

Worst is subjective. The worst Final Fantasy for me was FFXII, followed by 1 and 2. I didn't find XIII bad or horrible, it could have been better.

 

[Pooya]

I wonder why they didn't include that decision process in there.

By the looks of this article. . .it sounds like SquareEnix barely knew what they were doing.

sounds like Crystal tools as an engine shared by all projects was a horrible idea, FFXIV seems to be suffering from it too.

 

[ULTROS!]

sounds like Crystal tools was a horrible idea, FFXIV seems to be suffering from it too.

How was FFXIV suffering?

 

[Pooya]

How was FFXIV suffering?

Read the reviews, there is little content because they probably didn't have time to make them judging by this article and how late the tools were put together. Various performance issues even on highest end of PCs, PS3 version lagging behind etc.

 

[HK-47]

Sure but they still did their best, understand what went wrong and will probably improve later on. No reason to bash the game as much as some people do.

They didnt learn from XII and switching away from waterfall to agile after using the former all your development history is no easy undertaking.

 

[Despera]

In Atlus we trust.

Indeed.

 

[nelsonroyale]

Internation, domestic, whatever...

Just make a fucking good game...FF already has the profile

 

[DaBuddaDa]

It will more-or-less do the same amount as FFX.

Not even close. FFX was a massive hit due to it being the first FF game on PS2. I think it's the second best selling FF behind 7.