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Not even Naughty Dog can Remaster their own games

Vick

Member
Porting games like Uncharted 4 is not an easy task, to say the least. Especially in a relatively short time, and especially if bundled with titles such as The Lost Legacy.

However, i find fascinating how nobody spotted the huge number of little downgrades the games got in the Legacy of Thieves release, in conjunction with its improvements (which are many more Comparisons online were able to find).

So even if most of the time the game looks virtually identical/improved compared to its original Release, every kind of downgrade is featured here; from missing VFX, missing shadows, missing reflections, worse effects at times such as AO and some shaders, simplified and toned down bounce lighting from the dynamic GI (via Software RT), visual glitches and so on.

I spent these last few days comparing the whole game, and was able to grab a total of almost 800 screenshots (half from the OG, half from the Remaster) showcasing these kind of issues.

And since users like rofif rofif , Shmunter Shmunter or drotahorror drotahorror asked me to share these findings, here some examples of missing VFX (PS4 Top, PS5 Bottom, open pictures in new tab to switch back and forth):








What's weird is that the same scene in the Prologue, while still missing a few layers of mist, looks significantly closer to the original compared to what's shown above (end of Chapter 12). Still, even in the Prologue is clear how this Remaster features an issue with lightnings, as they never appear as clear and bright as they did before, and stay on screen for just a fraction of the time. As always, PS4 top, PS5 bottom.




Another example of occasional missing VFX include dust particles from bullet impact, like in this scene for example:




Or a downgraded version of Nadine's hair, which is missing the special layer between skin and hair (along with worse shaders on her silk dress):







Here some instances of missing reflections:







Or missing shadows:










Or worse Ambient Occlusion:







And a few examples of the toned down GI (which was the most astounding technical aspect of the game):



















Here some examples of the kind of visual glitches (the lamp in the first picture):










And among the almost 800 shots, there are also instances like this:




Which at first glance may appear as an artistic choice, however closer inspection reveals how the background is simply missing multiple layers compared to the original, as if it was sourced from an incomplete build.

Or this:




Which however i think is an artistic choice, as the coast being there in the original contradics the previous shot.

As i said, these are just a tiny fraction of the "issues" i've found. The reason i kept getting screenshots is that i hope to see each and every one of those fixed, because:

1) The number of improvements in this Remaster is incredible.

2) This is the version that will be ported in the future, and as we have seen with countless other titles over the years, once the first port is missing some visual features, they are gone forever.

Ideally, this Thread will be seen by some other fans of this game, leading to some discussion, leading hopefully to someone from ND acknowledging these issues. Wishful thinking, but worth a try.

P.S. I'm more than willing to send the full screenshots folder to whoever is interested.

Full detailed comparisons of Prologue, Chapter 1 and Chapter 3 here, Chapter 2 here, Chapter 4 here, Chapter 5 here, Chapter 6 here, Chapter 7 and 8 here, and highlights from the remaining Chapters here.
 
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Hunnybun

Member
How the fuck did you notice this stuff? You must have a brain like a computer.

I think the only one of those I noticed was Nadine's hair, which does look a bit crap. But I didn't think any more of its just assumed it had always been like that.

I'm not really sure what to make of all this lol. Why would these issues arise?

I agree btw that the game is a much better upgrade than it was given credit for. When I played it I immediately thought it looked better and sharper. I thought I was imagining it because of the DF analysis but I'm sure I'm not.
 

GrayFoxPL

Member
Porting games like Uncharted 4 is not an easy task, to say the least. Especially in a relatively short time, and especially if bundled with titles such as The Lost Legacy.

However, i find fascinating how nobody spotted the huge number of little downgrades the games got in the Legacy of Thieves release, in conjunction with its improvements (which are many more Comparisons online were able to find).

So even if most of the game the game looks virtually identical/improved compared to its original Release, every kind of downgrade is featured here; from missing VFX, missing shadows, missing reflections, worse effects at times such as AO and some shaders, simplified and toned down bounce lighting from the dynamic GI (via Software RT), visual glitches and so on.

I spent these last few days comparing the whole game, and was able to grab a total of almost 800 screenshots (half from the OG, half from the Remaster) showcasing these kind of issues.

And since users like rofif rofif , Shmunter Shmunter or drotahorror drotahorror asked me to share these findings, so here some examples of missing VFX (PS4 Top, PS5 Bottom, open pictures in new tab to switch back and forth):








What's weird is that the same scene in the Prologue, while still missing a few layers of mist, looks significantly closer to the original compared to what's shown above (end of Chapter 12). Still, even in the Prologue is clear how this Remaster features an issue with lightnings, as they never appear as clear and bright as they did before, and stay on screen for just a fraction of the time. As always, PS4 top, PS5 bottom.




Another example of occasional missing VFX include dust particles from bullet impact, like in this scene for example:




Or absent light sources:



Or a downgraded version of Nadine's hair, which is missing the special layer between skin and hair (along with worse shaders on her silk dress):







Or water bubbles absent from the end of Chapter 2, and many others.

Here some instances of missing reflections:







Or missing shadows:










Or worse Ambient Occlusion:







And a few examples of the toned down GI (which was the most astounding technical aspect of the game):
















Here some examples of the kind of visual glitches (the lamp in the first picture):










And among the almost 800 shots, there are also instances like this:




Which at first glance may appear as an artistic choice, however closer inspection reveals how the background is simply missing multiple layers compared to the original, as if it was sourced from an incomplete build.

Or this:




Which however i think is an artistic choice, as the coast being there in the original contradics the previous shot.

As i said, these are just a tiny fraction of the "issues" i've found. The reason i kept getting screenshots is that i hope to see each and every one of those fixed, because:

1) The number of improvements in this Remaster is incredible.

2) This is the version that will be ported in the future, and as we have seen with countless other titles over the years, once the first port is missing some visual features, they are gone forever.

Ideally, this Thread will be seen by some other fans of this game, leading to some discussion, leading hopefully to someone from ND acknowledging these issues. Wishful thinking, but worth a try.

P.S. I'm more than willing to send the full screenshots folder to whoever is interested.

I knew my PS4 is still the best!

winning the best GIF
 

arvfab

Member
Porting games like Uncharted 4 is not an easy task, to say the least. Especially in a relatively short time, and especially if bundled with titles such as The Lost Legacy.

However, i find fascinating how nobody spotted the huge number of little downgrades the games got in the Legacy of Thieves release, in conjunction with its improvements (which are many more Comparisons online were able to find).

So even if most of the game the game looks virtually identical/improved compared to its original Release, every kind of downgrade is featured here; from missing VFX, missing shadows, missing reflections, worse effects at times such as AO and some shaders, simplified and toned down bounce lighting from the dynamic GI (via Software RT), visual glitches and so on.

I spent these last few days comparing the whole game, and was able to grab a total of almost 800 screenshots (half from the OG, half from the Remaster) showcasing these kind of issues.

And since users like rofif rofif , Shmunter Shmunter or drotahorror drotahorror asked me to share these findings, so here some examples of missing VFX (PS4 Top, PS5 Bottom, open pictures in new tab to switch back and forth):








What's weird is that the same scene in the Prologue, while still missing a few layers of mist, looks significantly closer to the original compared to what's shown above (end of Chapter 12). Still, even in the Prologue is clear how this Remaster features an issue with lightnings, as they never appear as clear and bright as they did before, and stay on screen for just a fraction of the time. As always, PS4 top, PS5 bottom.




Another example of occasional missing VFX include dust particles from bullet impact, like in this scene for example:




Or absent light sources:



Or a downgraded version of Nadine's hair, which is missing the special layer between skin and hair (along with worse shaders on her silk dress):







Or water bubbles absent from the end of Chapter 2, and many others.

Here some instances of missing reflections:







Or missing shadows:










Or worse Ambient Occlusion:







And a few examples of the toned down GI (which was the most astounding technical aspect of the game):
















Here some examples of the kind of visual glitches (the lamp in the first picture):










And among the almost 800 shots, there are also instances like this:




Which at first glance may appear as an artistic choice, however closer inspection reveals how the background is simply missing multiple layers compared to the original, as if it was sourced from an incomplete build.

Or this:




Which however i think is an artistic choice, as the coast being there in the original contradics the previous shot.

As i said, these are just a tiny fraction of the "issues" i've found. The reason i kept getting screenshots is that i hope to see each and every one of those fixed, because:

1) The number of improvements in this Remaster is incredible.

2) This is the version that will be ported in the future, and as we have seen with countless other titles over the years, once the first port is missing some visual features, they are gone forever.

Ideally, this Thread will be seen by some other fans of this game, leading to some discussion, leading hopefully to someone from ND acknowledging these issues. Wishful thinking, but worth a try.

P.S. I'm more than willing to send the full screenshots folder to whoever is interested.

Incredible attention to details, good eyes and good job! Thank you for sharing. For completeness sake, could you please add in which mode you took the PS5 pics?
 

rofif

Gold Member
Porting games like Uncharted 4 is not an easy task, to say the least. Especially in a relatively short time, and especially if bundled with titles such as The Lost Legacy.

However, i find fascinating how nobody spotted the huge number of little downgrades the games got in the Legacy of Thieves release, in conjunction with its improvements (which are many more Comparisons online were able to find).

So even if most of the game the game looks virtually identical/improved compared to its original Release, every kind of downgrade is featured here; from missing VFX, missing shadows, missing reflections, worse effects at times such as AO and some shaders, simplified and toned down bounce lighting from the dynamic GI (via Software RT), visual glitches and so on.

I spent these last few days comparing the whole game, and was able to grab a total of almost 800 screenshots (half from the OG, half from the Remaster) showcasing these kind of issues.

And since users like rofif rofif , Shmunter Shmunter or drotahorror drotahorror asked me to share these findings, so here some examples of missing VFX (PS4 Top, PS5 Bottom, open pictures in new tab to switch back and forth):








What's weird is that the same scene in the Prologue, while still missing a few layers of mist, looks significantly closer to the original compared to what's shown above (end of Chapter 12). Still, even in the Prologue is clear how this Remaster features an issue with lightnings, as they never appear as clear and bright as they did before, and stay on screen for just a fraction of the time. As always, PS4 top, PS5 bottom.




Another example of occasional missing VFX include dust particles from bullet impact, like in this scene for example:




Or absent light sources:



Or a downgraded version of Nadine's hair, which is missing the special layer between skin and hair (along with worse shaders on her silk dress):







Or water bubbles absent from the end of Chapter 2, and many others.

Here some instances of missing reflections:







Or missing shadows:










Or worse Ambient Occlusion:







And a few examples of the toned down GI (which was the most astounding technical aspect of the game):
















Here some examples of the kind of visual glitches (the lamp in the first picture):










And among the almost 800 shots, there are also instances like this:




Which at first glance may appear as an artistic choice, however closer inspection reveals how the background is simply missing multiple layers compared to the original, as if it was sourced from an incomplete build.

Or this:




Which however i think is an artistic choice, as the coast being there in the original contradics the previous shot.

As i said, these are just a tiny fraction of the "issues" i've found. The reason i kept getting screenshots is that i hope to see each and every one of those fixed, because:

1) The number of improvements in this Remaster is incredible.

2) This is the version that will be ported in the future, and as we have seen with countless other titles over the years, once the first port is missing some visual features, they are gone forever.

Ideally, this Thread will be seen by some other fans of this game, leading to some discussion, leading hopefully to someone from ND acknowledging these issues. Wishful thinking, but worth a try.

P.S. I'm more than willing to send the full screenshots folder to whoever is interested.
Interesting. Not all shots have the same timing. Some are probably artistic choice.
Others could be down to post processing scaling with resolution as it often does.
But missing layers and other stuff are hard to explain.

That said. These are very minor things. Most of which are not possible to spot without direct comparison. But it proves it was difficult to port this game. They probably had to rebuild it and used wrong assets.

Have you noticed difference in sound or feel of the controls and animations?
 

Markio128

Member
You get your new hardware and instead of your old games working at least on par or better than the original, you pay again for the privilege to replay an inferior version. You almost have to laugh.
Or you could just play the original on your new hardware.:messenger_tears_of_joy:
 
You get your new hardware and instead of your old games working at least on par or better than the original, you pay again for the privilege to replay an inferior version. You almost have to laugh.
If you think the original ones are better, buy them for like 10 dollars and play the better PS4 versions then? No one is forcing you to buy the PS5 "inferior" versions
 

Filben

Member
Hope they'll fix it for the PC release.

Clouds, fog, ambient occlusion and Nadine's hair was very obvious to me. The other differences I wouldn't have noticed. In case of GI there's only like two pairs I find worse, the majority just looks different. As for the shadows, I don't think it's that noticeable in the distance.

This should be easy to fix I think, however.
 
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assurdum

Member
Because its paid and the PS5 is powerful enough.

The real question is why dont you care. This is really inexcusable for a paid upgrade.
I say I don't care? I'd like to see the same interested when both companies are involved but I see always the same people point the finger just to one side.
 

Kimahri

Member
And amazingly every professional review I've seen missed all this.
Amazingly? As someone else said, OP must have a brain like a robot. I had to look very cloesly at some of those pictures to spot any difference, and quite frankly, who cares? Outside of the tiny minority that will sit and nitpick this stuff while nobody else gives a shit? Maybe the odd "that's crap" comment, and then it's forgotten about.

The only sites that will bother with going to the trouble of comparing like this are sites like Digital Foundry who do one thing and one thing only, analyze graphics, the average reviewer won't bother because their readers don't care and it's not worth the work vs the return on investment. Most outlets won't even review remasters because they garner far less clicks than a new title.

So sure, they might have "missed" it along with 99% of everyone else who played it, but a big part of the reason for that is that the average reviewer doesn't count pixels because it's a waste of time.

Or who knows, maybe the did notice, they just didn't bother to spend time on it because they felt it wasn't important with regards to the bigger picture, and I'd agree if that was the case.
 

Vick

Member
I believe the port is by Iron Galaxy studios
The upcoming PC port is by Iron Galaxy, Naughty Dog made this one.

Yeah, sorry for the resolution. The only possible way to quickly compare the games as intensively was via Youtube, otherwise it would probably take years.
But i think it's better this way, as you're not distracted by the improved IQ and just focus on what's missing.

You can say that again, my coutry is going absolutely nuts with the pandemic atm.
Also did my best to take less time as possible in hope of Naughty Dog quickly acknowledging these issues.

Did you just assume Naughty Dog's gender?

Their not his

nolan north taunt GIF
Oops, my country's fault as a Studio is referred to as him here. Maybe a Mod can fix the title? Mod of War Mod of War

Incredible attention to details, good eyes and good job! Thank you for sharing. For completeness sake, could you please add in which mode you took the PS5 pics?
Thank you very much buddy. Every picture is from Performance Mode.

Why would these issues arise?
No idea whatsoever.
However some issues may indicate they sourced the Remaster from an incomplete build. I'm just assuming though, and i can't think of a reason as to why it would have been necessary.
 

blastprocessor

The Amiga Brotherhood
Hopefully you've reported these to ND via there twitter.

There's also physics glitches from what I've seen.

Hopefully ND can rectify these asap but for now l won't bother "downgrading".
 
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Fredrik

Gold Member
Disappointing. Just started playing Lost Legacy for the first time, assumed I would get the definitive version.

I’m positively surprised at the character design though. Chloe looks hawt! Feels so strange to see a game in 2022 where a female lead has nice curves, don’t think she would’ve looked like that if the game was made today.
 

Thirty7ven

Sony make cringe trainers.
their/they

Or maybe they only had the one naughty dog working on it.... you could be right...
 
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Shmunter

Gold Member
Disappointing. Just started playing Lost Legacy for the first time, assumed I would get the definitive version.

I’m positively surprised at the character design though. Chloe looks hawt! Feels so strange to see a game in 2022 where a female lead has nice curves, don’t think she would’ve looked like that if the game was made today.
she’s got diversity to balance the equation
 

Vick

Member
Others could be down to post processing scaling with resolution as it often does.
One effect impacted for sure by this is DOF, which obviously doesn't count. Others, not so sure.

That said. These are very minor things. Most of which are not possible to spot without direct comparison.
Minor or not (imo debatable, for a Naughty Dog Remaster), they are there when they were not in the OG, so i hope to see them fixed. As i said, once a thing is gone in the first port is gone forever.

Is it that big of a deal?

Thats the question we should be asking. These things seem so... meaningless to me. Dont get me wrong, they would be nice if they were there, but getting upset over this seems like a nothingsburguer.
For me, personally, yes, it is a big deal.
This is the last ND game Bruce Straley worked on (huge fan of the guy), and given the current/future trends, i wouldn't expect many more titles like this one.

Also, remember there are people among us who spent 8 years of their lives upgrading textures of a 18 years old game, traveling to different countries as well in order to find the original sources.. each have his own priorities.


Some of those looks more like artistic review and others I can barely see any difference.
The only artistic review among those shot is probably the last one, and maybe (but i don't think so) the one with Sully's plane.
As i said, there are close to 800 screenshots. The release is full of technical issues.

Hope they'll fix it for the PC release.
Well, if even Naughty Dog couldn't avoid downgrading their own game, on a platform backwards compatible with the original code, i'm not really all that hopeful about Iron Galaxy.
And it's a shame, because shadows option would do wonders for some Chapters.

Hopefully you've reported these to ND via there twitter.
I don't use Twitter unfortunately (?).. i would be willing to make an account just for this, but if someone could link this Thread to Kurt Margenau or Shaun Escayg that would be amazing.
 

SoggyBiscuit

Gold Member
Could missing effects like the mist be down to increased visual clarity? I know there was supposedly a bump in resolution.

The missing AO is criminal though, I'm very surprised by that. Really makes the scenes presented look flat and not particularly grounded.
 

cormack12

Gold Member
Could missing effects like the mist be down to increased visual clarity? I know there was supposedly a bump in resolution.

The missing AO is criminal though, I'm very surprised by that. Really makes the scenes presented look flat and not particularly grounded.

Yeah I think they use those fog etc. to reduce draw distance and hide things. The other stuff is interesting though.
 

KungFucius

Member
Reviews are simply hype machines nowadays.
Reviewers and youtubers aren't much different in 2022 (check Cyberpunk's release, previews, reviews, etc)
C'mon. This is not why they are not looking at the difference between 2 versions. The reviewer is given the task of playing the version of interest and reviewing it. That is a lot of work. Why would they go out of their way to dig up the old one, play that as well so they can compare it. People have ridiculous expectations here. Someone is s shill hype machine unless they play the game twice and compare it. FFS.

Cyberpunk was pretty good on PC too. But yeah since the PS4 version sucked compared to what I played on my higher end PC, I am a liar for saying that as are all reviewers who did the same.
 

Nautilus

Member
One effect impacted for sure by this is DOF, which obviously doesn't count. Others, not so sure.


Minor or not (imo debatable, for a Naughty Dog Remaster), they are there when they were not in the OG, so i hope to see them fixed. As i said, once a thing is gone in the first port is gone forever.


For me, personally, yes, it is a big deal.
This is the last ND game Bruce Straley worked on (huge fan of the guy), and given the current/future trends, i wouldn't expect many more titles like this one.

Also, remember there are people among us who spent 8 years of their lives upgrading textures of a 18 years old game, traveling to different countries as well in order to find the original sources.. each have his own priorities.



The only artistic review among those shot is probably the last one, and maybe (but i don't think so) the one with Sully's plane.
As i said, there are close to 800 screenshots. The release is full of technical issues.


Well, if even Naughty Dog couldn't avoid downgrading their own game, on a platform backwards compatible with the original code, i'm not really all that hopeful about Iron Galaxy.
And it's a shame, because shadows option would do wonders for some Chapters.


I don't use Twitter unfortunately (?).. i would be willing to make an account just for this, but if someone could link this Thread to Kurt Margenau or Shaun Escayg that would be amazing.
Well, I respect that, but for me this feels like nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking.

Not only because a game is conpromised of so many moving parts that it feels like complaining that a speck of dust in the corner of a house is a flaw so big that it stops you from buying the house, when you loved everything about it.

But again, that's me. I enjoy the games based on how good they are, and if there are a few visual glitches here and there(that doesn't get in the way, of course), I don't mind one bit, and I'm always perplexed about how people treat it like its the end of the world.
 

Whitecrow

Gold Member
Some differences are always to be expected in remasters.

Checking for a 100% match in every scenario is very hard and intensive work.

Developers are humans, not bots. They will patch these things out in time.
 

Holammer

Member
Quality post.
Now the question is if this is part of a new vision, necessary changes or other. Will they carry over to the PC port?
 

Elios83

Member
These differences are really small.
Some might be artistic choices (see the less intrusive motion blur Digital Foundry also talked about), others might be simple tweaks needed to get the game running well at the intended presets (native 4K@30fps, 1440p@60fps), others might be things that were lost in the porting effort and might be recovered with future patches so it's good to spot them.
But if they're intentional there's not much to do about it.
By making a game natively on PS5 with a new graphical engine conceived for PS5 they could do much more, but basically this might be the best they can do porting the existing engine with an effort that is compatible with the budget allocated to a simple remaster that needed to be released quickly.

I'm playing U4 on PS5 right now in native 4K and basically textures got a new life, you can see the fine details in the texture work that was simply killed by lower res. The benefit is immense vs these small details I actually didn't even remember and noticed while playing.
 
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TrebleShot

Member
I noticed a lot of this too, especially Nadines hair that was very jarring. Played it originally years ago but immediately noticed the downgrade of her hair.

Also 30fps 4k is ridiculous it most definitely could run at 4k60 very poor.
 
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