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[GHG]

Hmm, interesting. I assumed the higher clocked chips would be harder to hit big yields with because the silicon quality needs to be better to ensure the clocks can be reached and maintained as expected.

Overall I think on the APU front Sony and MS basically cancel each other out WRT costs; larger chip will cost more wafer budget but higher-clocked GPU will similarly eat away more due to needing better silicon "quality" therefore tighter yields.

I know people take the report of Sony increasing PS5 production to 10 million as evidence the yields are better than expected and maybe they are, but that figure's been in reference to the run up to the fiscal year's end right? Which originally was 6 million. Dunno if production capacities for the launch batch or end-of-2020 units is really jumping up to scale the revised production numbers or if the bulk of those extra units are for 2021 shipments.

I've always been under the impression that faulty compute units or cores at the time of manufacturing are a much bigger concern. They will be tested up to certain clock speed but as long as everything is within tolerance levels at lower clock speeds then it's cooling that becomes the primary concern. As long as the cooling is up to scratch then the cores/units should also perform as expected at higher clock speeds. A situation like the GTX 780 vs the Titan springs to mind. Some Titan chips had faulty shader units, so those were disabled, they boosted the clocks and then then GTX 780 was born.

That's my understanding at least. But like I said that's based on the assumption that the manufacturing process is the same.

Edit: assuming what geordiemp said is correct then anything beyond a surface level understanding is far over my head

 

[Ellery]

Making sure the people know they need a bigger wallet even before announcing the price so they won't be shocked when the consoles aren't going to be $399.

 

[LostDonkey]

This thing is absolute BERNARNERS

can't wait

 

[mckmas8808]

Maybe this console will legit cost over $500.

 

[Entroyp]

Making sure the people know they need a bigger wallet even before announcing the price so they won't be shocked when the consoles aren't going to be $399.

Well, there’s a $499 console already so I was thinking the new ones would be $499 at least. But $599 seems to be the new target

 

[pawel86ck]

This is all I can do for you

Series X has similar RT performance to a RTX 2060 on this particular demo.

86% percentage increase on 30.5 will get you to 2080ti performance.

1.86x379.6 will give you 706 billion rays for 2080ti.

How do you know XSX has similar RT performance compared to RTX 2060? Minecraft benchmark chart is showing 30fps average on RTX 2060 (minimum was probably lower than 30fps), while minecraft on XSX run anywhere from 30-60fps.

 

[Dolomite]

Can anyone explain in layman terms as to why one would go with 52 CU at a lower clock speed than having 36 CU at higher clocks ? Die size, yields and cost is the first topic of dicussion in the slides, signifying the importance. what are the tradeoffs in both cases?

More processing at lower temps. Win- win

 

[Ellery]

Well, there’s a $499 console already so I was thinking the new ones would be $499 at least. But $599 seems to be the new target

Articles like these are a win win situation for console manufactures. Doesn't necessarily need to be Xbox, but in this case it is Microsoft.
You announce (indirectly) that it is expensive for you and prices are ever increasing, which is true, and then when you release an expensive product people will be ready for it. You release a reasonable priced product and people think you gave them something for free.

Nvidia has been doing some shady rumors in the past with effectively the same strategy. Throw around rumors of 1350$ GTX Titan Black cards and then release them for 999$. Idiots thought Nvidia was generous for only asking a freaking grand for a graphics card. In reality people were being manipulated.

Edit: Might happen again in the near future when the RTX 2080 Ti replacement (RTX 3090 or RTX 3080 Ti) is rumored to be double the price of the 2080 Ti launch price $999 -> $2000. When it will come out at $1299-$1499 people will happily buy it.

 

[BattleScar]

More processing at lower temps. Win- win

At a much higher price.

 

[Clear]

Saw a thing on my phone earlier, T3 pushing a report from Alanah Pearce saying its a $599 box.

Not conclusive by any means, but a bit more solid than earlier rumors.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I saw tons of specs on those powerpoint slides.

Anything interesting?

 

[mckmas8808]

Yes, and to really appreciate that you either need a kick-ass audio system in your home (TV speakers simply will not cut it), or extremely expensive headphones. Or at least really good headphones that'll probably set you back $150 - $200.

It's little things like that which'll probably make next-gen a bit more expensive than it'll appear on paper for people who want the ultimate experience (that isn't PC).

And it's 100% WORTH IT! I can't wait.

 

[Caio]

It's like to meet a beautuful girl and you cannot touch her because of the Covid. Cross-gen for XSX is like the Covid. Devs cannot touch the power of the Sexy XSX

 

[mckmas8808]

Saw a thing on my phone earlier, T3 pushing a report from Alanah Pearce saying its a $599 box.

Not conclusive by any means, but a bit more solid than earlier rumors.

I like Alanah Pearce a lot, but NO WAY is this possible! It'll mean Lockhart will be $400, or no less than $350.

 

[Dolomite]

THIS IS NOT A TROLL POST...

But is the "PS5 - 4 x 36 x 2.23 = 321.12 billion" equation a theoretical max performance spec considering the PS5 is working with Smartshift here? I wonder if the GPU clock scales down RT performance as it drops lower to give power to the CPU? Or is it just fixed at 321.12?

Probably a silly question but figured one worth asking.

That's a legitimate questions, and I hate that one has to be so cautious just asking it here. Also yes, I'd expect those numbers to fluctuate respectively, for what the game needs and what the system can squeeze out

 

[M1chl]

I like Alanah Pearce a lot, but NO WAY is this possible! It'll mean Lockhart will be $400, or no less than $350.

Well:

X1X was 499USD, if I am not mistaken, this probably going to more demanding for your wallet.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

I have no idea what any of this means but I'll pretend I do anyway

 

[onQ123]

So 64 ROPS confirmed so Toms hardware can remove the fake 80 ROPS they had up for the last last or so.

 

[mckmas8808]

Well:

X1X was 499USD, if I am not mistaken, this probably going to more demanding for your wallet.

But that's just talking about the price of the SOC though. There had to be other "reasons" why the X1X was $500.

 

[M1chl]

But that's just talking about the price of the SOC though. There had to be other "reasons" why the X1X was $500.

Good cooling, which is even more beefy here. Plus SSD... I mean, I can see it brightly, that 599USD price tag : D

 

[Entroyp]

twas a joke at the silly icons used

lol I missed it.

 

[BlueXImpulse]

How do you know XSX has similar RT performance compared to RTX 2060? Minecraft benchmark chart is showing 30fps average on RTX 2060 (minimum was probably lower than 30fps), while minecraft on XSX run anywhere from 30-60fps.

It's rough of course.

 

[Entroyp]

Good cooling, which is even more beefy here. Plus SSD... I mean, I can see it brightly, that 599USD price tag : D

Oh fuck we do have to add the SSD cost still...

 

[Dolomite]

At a much higher price.

Likely. The BOM for the series x screams PS3 launch, but I feel like MS is prepared to sell these at a hell of a loss if their banking on Gamepass subs and lukewarm gen 8 sales

 

[mckmas8808]

Likely. The BOM for the series x screams PS3 launch, but I feel like MS is prepared to sell these at a hell of a loss if their banking on Gamepass subs and lukewarm gen 8 sales

So why even make Lockhart then?

 

[jimbojim]

Jesus that RT performance in a console is nuts.

On par with 2060. If you that consider as "nuts", then OK

 

[GHG]

Oh fuck we do have to add the SSD cost still...

$600 might actually end up being conservative unless they plan to sell it at a loss.

 

[jimbojim]

Higher temperatures = more cost for cooling requirements

But looks like cooling isn't cheap in XSX either

 

[jimbojim]

Higher temperatures = more cost for cooling requirements

But looks like cooling isn't cheap in XSX either

 

[GHG]

But looks like cooling isn't cheap in XSX either

It will be cheaper than the PS5's cooling requirements at least.

The Series X will be able to get away with conventional cooling whereas all signs are pointing towards the PS5's being something unconventional.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I gotta say. This post aged well in that regard.

You seem to have difficulties in understanding things, please don't waste my time again. Have said million times that XSX has an audio chip, and it's already been officially confirmed with no space for speculation to begin with, but according to Ninja Theory the reference of it being offloading CPU. So it's more of a CPU based 3D audio solution, while PS5's is using cache-less, SPU-like CU chip that meant to do overwhelming amount of raytraced, detailed sounds, with much spare for even contribution to help both the CPU/GPU in game-related calculation.

If you wanna have true 3D audio, you must use the GPU, or GPU-based chip like the Tempest, or use the main GPU to compensate for that. If you know better than AMD, then that's pretty funny:




Now get lost.

 

[Fake]

I bet its the standard RDNA2 stuff. The RT performance we are getting from both PS5/Series X is more than enough for me. Actually they both surpassed my set goals for next gen, especially on CPUs and SSD

The big star this gen is probably Ryzen. They're galaxy ahead the Jaguar.

People are curious about the price tag, but the real war will be the 'big loss' factor. Who between the two will be more agressive about having big loss.

 

[M1chl]

You seem to have difficulties in understanding things, please don't waste my time again. Have said million times that XSX has an audio chip, and it's already been officially confirmed with no space for speculation to begin with, but according to Ninja Theory the reference of it being offloading CPU. So it's more of a CPU based 3D audio solution, while PS5's is using cache-less, SPU-like chip that meant to do overwhelming amount raytraced, detailed sounds, with much spare for even contribution to help both the CPU/GPU in game-related calculation.

If you wanna have true 3D audio, you must use the GPU, or GPU-based chip like the Tempest, or use the main GPU to compensate for that. If you know better than AMD, then that's pretty funny:




Now get lost.

Well I am not so sure if audio really can be "GPU" based, probably best way is to create some ASIC for the audio processing, like X-FI does it back in the day with RAM on the side and stuff like that. Obviously now, just way more powerfull. But on that diagram of the chip that audio decoding part is pretty large...

 

[vpance]

Well:

X1X was 499USD, if I am not mistaken, this probably going to more demanding for your wallet.

X1X was sold at a small profit I believe. There's definitely room for MS to take a hit and make $499.

 

[IntentionalPun]

The big star this gen is probably Ryzen. They're galaxy ahead the Jaguar.

People are curious about the price tag, but the real war will be the 'big loss' factor. Who between the two will be more agressive about having big loss.

I highly doubt either are prepared to take a big loss on hardware.

 

[Dolomite]

So why even make Lockhart then?

For folks that don't care about anything we discuss here, and would never care to comprehend these hot chip slides. Dad's who want all the bells and whistles will get the SXS and buy their kids Lockhart for fortnite.

 

[splattered]

For folks that don't care about anything we discuss here, and would never care to comprehend these hot hip slides. Dad's who want all the bells and whistles will get the SXS and buy their kids Lockhart for fortnite.

Which is exactly what i am going to be doing

 

[Fake]

I highly doubt either are prepared to take a big loss on hardware.

They don't need to take 100% loss. One thing here, one thing there, etc...

 

[saintjules]

Saw a thing on my phone earlier, T3 pushing a report from Alanah Pearce saying its a $599 box.

Not conclusive by any means, but a bit more solid than earlier rumors.

There's alot of outlets pushing out misleading titles on her unfortunately.

She said she was DM'd that info from an anonymous source working in Retail. Photo showing a work screen showing the $599 price. Supposedly a placeholder, which feels ironic.

 

[Dolomite]

Which is exactly what i am going to be doing

Lol seriously, I'd do the same if I had any kids. They don't care

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

I've always been under the impression that faulty compute units or cores at the time of manufacturing are a much bigger concern. They will be tested up to certain clock speed but as long as everything is within tolerance levels at lower clock speeds then it's cooling that becomes the primary concern. As long as the cooling is up to scratch then the cores/units should also perform as expected at higher clock speeds. A situation like the GTX 780 vs the Titan springs to mind. Some Titan chips had faulty shader units, so those were disabled, they boosted the clocks and then then GTX 780 was born.

That's my understanding at least. But like I said that's based on the assumption that the manufacturing process is the same.

Edit: assuming what geordiemp said is correct then anything beyond a surface level understanding is far over my head

Same; I don't follow the wafer production process like that. Higher clocks do have at least some factor into silicon quality requirements but my main point of curiosity if that would outweigh the cost savings of going with a smaller GPU. Seems like probably the larger GPU would still cost a bit more in such a case. But like was also said, the bigger the frequencies the more cooling needs to be capable to help (plus smaller chip means less real estate to dissipate heat generated, that was something I didn't consider until geordiemp brought it up).

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Well I am not so sure if audio really can be "GPU" based, probably best way is to create some ASIC for the audio processing, like X-FI does it back in the day with RAM on the side and stuff like that. Obviously now, just way more powerfull. But on that diagram of the chip that audio decoding part is pretty large...

It's not an opinion or wild thoughts, it's official and said by Mark Cerny months back:

Sony is calling this innovation the Tempest 3D Audio Tech, which Cerny says "suggests a certain intensity of experience and also hints at your presence." The "tempest engine" is based on AMD's GPU technology, and is built around SPU-like architecture, which is not dissimilar to the PS3.

"The first goal was to create audio for everyone, not just VR users or sound bar owners or headphone users. That meant audio had to be part of the console, it couldn't be a peripheral. The second goal was to support hundreds of sound sources. We didn't want developers to have to pick and choose which sounds would get 3D effects and which wouldn't. We wanted every sound in the game to have dimensionality."

Cerny says the end goal with 3D audio is to get as close as possible to making players feel like "you're actually there," or that "you've entered the matrix." With the sound of rain, Cerny says, instead of using a single rain sound, the PS5 will allow developers to incorporate "lots of 3D audio sources for raindrops hitting the ground in all sorts of locations around you."

PS5 3D audio is designed to make you feel like "you're actually there"

Here's how the PS5 uses 3D audio to increase immersion

www.gamesradar.com

.

Some just like to act like a smartass and make fools of themselves while not paying attention to what's been officially shown.

We’re going to have a dedicated chip to work with audio, which means we finally won’t have to fight with programmers and artists for memory and CPU power.

We take for granted that graphics are powered by their own video cards. But in audio, we haven’t had anything like that. Now we have some power dedicated to us.

Xbox Series X Confirmed to Have Dedicated Audio Chip; Sound Developers "Won't Have to Fight Programmers and Artists for Memory and CPU Power.”

According to Ninja Theory senior sound designer Daniele Galante, the Xbox Series X will have a dedicated audio chip that will help sound designers considerably

wccftech.com

So XSX solution is good, but not "TEMPEST" good. It's meant to offload the CPU/RAM of basic sound and CPU-based 3D audio (5.1-7.1 channel). It's not HRTF-based, true 3D Audio, that only needs basic stereo, 2.0 channel.

 

[jimbojim]

X1X was sold at a small profit I believe

It wasn't. Phil Spencer was asked after XSX launch is XSX profitable, he dodged the question to answer it

 

[Tomeru]

Thats a processer rite der.

Edit:
Its tough times when you realise that all youve been posting are one liners. And theyre not even funny...

 

[Dolomite]

Running shaders in parallel with a spawning BVH will never Not impress me

 

[VincentMatts]

no clue what any of that means

 

[pawel86ck]

It's rough of course.

30-60fps on XSX means performance can be still anywhere between 2060 and 2080ti. Nothing can be concluded based on this minecraft benchmark.

PS5 can run some games at 4K 60fps with RT (quantum error, GT7), so RT performance looks solid anyway.

 

[Robins]

This won't be sold at a loss, otherwise why release the series s at all?

This is a $599 machine and still really good value.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

There's alot of outlets pushing out misleading titles on her unfortunately.

She said she was DM'd that info from an anonymous source working in Retail. Photo showing a work screen showing the $599 price. Supposedly a placeholder, which feels ironic.

Yeah even ReviewTechUSA kinda did a misleading clickbait video saying that's what she said, but she was just reiterating what the DM mentioned and said it might be a placeholder.

Technically he's right that she "said" it i.e the words came out of her mouth, but in the overall context it was her own reiterating of what someone else mentioned, and speculation of it being a placeholder price on top of that. He'd of been better off just sticking with the Monster Energy one which at least is direct from them in the legalese fine print (which could also be a placeholder, fwiw).

We take for granted that graphics are powered by their own video cards. But in audio, we haven’t had anything like that. Now we have some power dedicated to us.

This part kind of grates me because it's not actually that true xD. Nowadays, yes, there aren't really any dedicated audio cards anymore, all audio is generally handled by CPU integrated features and whatnot. But up until the mid-2000s it was very common to have dedicated audio cards on PC, especially in the '80s and '90s.

Since CPUs weren't strong enough to handle good audio on their own audio cards were more necessary. It's neat to see there is consideration for dedicated audio hardware in the next-gen systems. Tempest does seem like it'll be the more robust audio solution out of the two but I think both approaches will be very sufficient for developers. The bigger issue with advanced audio is that to the layman it's a lot harder for them to "tell" the quality difference compared to graphics; keep in mind most people are going to be using integrated TV speakers which offer shit audio compared to dedicated audio setups or high-quality headphones.

I'd love if Sony could include those Pulse 3D headphones as standard in PS5 but that would jump the price up a damn bit.

 

[geordiemp]

I've always been under the impression that faulty compute units or cores at the time of manufacturing are a much bigger concern. They will be tested up to certain clock speed but as long as everything is within tolerance levels at lower clock speeds then it's cooling that becomes the primary concern. As long as the cooling is up to scratch then the cores/units should also perform as expected at higher clock speeds. A situation like the GTX 780 vs the Titan springs to mind. Some Titan chips had faulty shader units, so those were disabled, they boosted the clocks and then then GTX 780 was born.

That's my understanding at least. But like I said that's based on the assumption that the manufacturing process is the same.

Edit: assuming what geordiemp said is correct then anything beyond a surface level understanding is far over my head

If you think of stressing frequency, lets face it the CPUs are 3.5 - 3.8 Ghz. The GPU clock is more a larger logic pipeline consideration and heat / larger surface area.

Anyway, most of the bins will be particles where you get random particles per wafer and statistics on where they will land, and if its a layer and part of the circuit and in a layer which causes that bit of the circuit to fail.

So you have a 300mmm wafer, so many particles cuasing fails, and you can salvage some if it happens to fall on a CU which can be disabled at final test. If it falls on other part your knackered.

So when you have 1000s of wafers, its down to die size and number of die per wafer and statistics / luck. We dont know ps5 die size to compare, think DF did a typo.

Looks a good design. Nice. ROPS less than expected, RT more than expected.

Will not stay awake for 7pm PT, had long day will fall asleep by then