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[avatar299]

Remember to write your lawmakers and ask them to ban further immigration by muslims into your country.

:lol

 

[Tyrannical]

:lol

What? You think France and the Netherlands aren't having second thoughts about allowing them to immigrate in the first place?

 

[Mandark]

It's a moot point for the US.

We were doomed once we started letting the Irish in.

 

[SRG01]

Firstly do you not realize that the greatest condemnation that one believing muslim can give to another is by stating that they are not following the real teachings of Islam?

Secondly and more importantly let me tell you what the repercussions of your expectation for muslims in the West is.

It is that we don't belong. That we can't just fit in, get along, and get on with life. That we have to prove ourselves by condemning people that we don't agree with, don't feel any kinship with and that if we don't do it often enough, or hard enough, or agree outright with any article that bashes them that we've failed some sort of test. That we aren't normal. We need to prove our loyalty in a manner that nobody else needs to.

And if we don't then well, hell, everybody knows that we're polygamist, child raping, wife beating, far more despicable than fundamentalist Mormons, forced marrying, honor killing, female circumcising, terror supporting, beheading video filming, genocidal anti-semitic barbarians who exalt suicide bombing and depict Jews as "apes and pigs".

Each one of these generalized slurs is taken verbatim from the OP article and *in response to THIS* you're posting "we need to talk about things that are related but without unnecessarily offending people that don't subscribe to them", without unecessarily offending? it is *this* article that you actually HAD TO ASK for examples when the muslims here condemned it for degrading stereotypes and slander?

And then when muslims DO respond to the violent extremists by accusing them of not being true muslims (which for some unknown reason you guys seem to think is a joke and not a deadly serious accusation) it is *mocked* by the atheist brigade as being an apologia for fairy tale LOL RELIGION and how these 'real teachings' (IN QUOTES HAHA 'Real Teachings' What nuts these religious people are huh?) are all deluded and the crazed suicide bombing justifiers are the REAL DEAL ISLAM because religions are Keraaazy and by the way if you muslims don't agree with this then you're NOT CONDEMNING THEM and everything Sam Harris said about you is TRUE you baby raping murdering bastards.

There is *no* discussion coming from the OP article. There is *no* attempt to understand the dynamics, divisions, and issues of the Islamic world, and heck *no* interest in going beyond the crassest and most insulting of stereotypes about the Islamic world that I have ever seen collected into one article. All of it aimed at a self satisified choir or an audience that is convinced it knows all it needs to about the barabaric and savage muslim world already.

And that is the third problem. These kind of attack jobs (defended so avidly on its generalised slurs by Phlegm) contribute to an already pervasive atmosphere where anybody muslim is viewed with suspicion, and people are willing to accept travesties of civil liberties like Guantanmo Bay to keep the savage barbabic misogynist muslims (as described by Sam Harris folks) at bay and under control. That leads to complete and utter crap like this to happen: http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/410676 Eighteen people thrown in jail for years without charges kept in solitary confinement and a mother that tries to keep insisting above all else that hers is just another normal family.

Yeah.
Normal.

*sigh* Ah shit, you want nice speculawyer, here you go:
http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

I was expecting this thread to be a trainwreck, but then I come across gems like this. Well said, Azih.

 

[ElyrionX]

Did you actually read the thread or just glance at a few select posts?

I didn't read the whole damn thread but I read a large part of it. I even remember you giving the example of the generalizations in Sam Harris' article.

Recently, I tend to avoid such threads though. It's just tiring to read the same old thing again with nothing resolved in the end. It's like the whole creation vs evolution debate.

 

[Stinkles]

You could rewrite the OP and search and replace Muslim with Christian. Insert IRA and UDA, and you suddenly have incredibly violent extremists. The OP has friction because it's well-written and feels convincing - and indeed it is.
But it is, as others here have said, insulting to the vast majority of Muslims who don't want this shit to represent their religion any more than Christians want the atrocities of the IRA and UDA to represent theirs. As soon as we apply that thinking wholesale to the entire religion, we create an "other" that is easy to hate. A human habit that works as much as it sucks.
One problem here is the fact that there are almost no Christian states and plenty of Islamic states - so an imbalance of literal political (and diplomatic) correctness does exist. Which is one of two reasons we're referred to as the "West" instead of simply "Christians" and the other of course being the inconvenient fact that Christ is an Islamic figure.
It all sucks balls and I wish it would go away.

 

[smurfx]

Remember to write your lawmakers and ask them to ban further immigration by muslims into your country.

replace them with mexicans!

 

[Fusebox]

You could rewrite the OP and search and replace Muslim with Christian.

Not at all, the OP is focusing more about the public perception that Islam can't be criticised for fear of violent protest.

 

[Karakand]

Yeah... Eyes on the prize!

Will do, coach! *goes back to jogging laps*

 

[Tyrannical]

replace them with mexicans!

It was in a different thread that I called for a halt of latino immigration to the US.

 

[speculawyer]

Basically, it's just idiotic fear-mongering from people who would never look at Christianity in the same light.

Bzzzt. Sam Harris has lots of fun mocking Christianity. He'll point point how 44% of Americans think Jesus will come down out of the sky 'like a super-hero' and fix everything.

He is very harsh on Christianity.

 

[speculawyer]

Remember to write your lawmakers and ask them to ban further immigration by muslims into your country.

Joke post?

How about all the Iraqis who we have put into a dangerous situation since they've helped translate for us?

 

[speculawyer]

It's a moot point for the US.

We were doomed once we started letting the Irish in.

No Irish need apply. :lol

Tribalism sucks. Superstition sucks.

 

[Tyrannical]

Joke post?

How about all the Iraqis who we have put into a dangerous situation since they've helped translate for us?

Will they integrate into our society? So far the track record for muslims has not been so good.

 

[DSWii60]

I'm a Muslim, I condemn all terrorist acts especially those carried out in the name of Islam. I would also say that I'm a moderate Muslim. "Moderate" as people in this thread seem to think =/= ambivalency to terrorism. Terrorists are not Muslims, simple. They may claim to be Muslims but anyone who takes another person's life (without legitimate reason - and no, not being a Muslim is not a legitimate reason to kill someone) is not actually a Muslim.

The perception in this thread seems to be that because Muslims do it, that in turn means that it's because of Islam they do it. I'm not going to bother explaining why stuff like honour killings and being abusive to your wife in unIslamic because there's simply no point as they've already been explained many times in other GAF threads and I have neither the time nor the patience to explain myself right now. I will simply state that these are not allowed and the Quran itself does not allow forced marriage or abuse of your wife.

The perception that we Muslims have of the media is a negative one. IRA =/= Catholicism, so why does Bin Laden = the whole of Islam? Admittedly, there are Muslim states in this world that are extremist IMO, but they are extremist not because of Islam, but because of their interpretation / selective reading of it. Anything can be interpreted in different ways, just see all the Rev. Wright stuff for an example. Anyone who has seen how that has been spun by the media can understand how we Muslims feel as Islam is spun as a violent religion.

The problem is that the acts of the few that can get reactions from people will always be shown over the acts of many who won't get any reactions.

As to the point that Islam cannot be attacked without fear of a violent response, most Muslims were not violent when e.g. the cartoons were published. Sure, they showed their dislike for the cartoons by protesting, but mostly, they were peaceful protests. Of course, some idiots decided that the publishing of the cartoons would be a good excuse to start riots etc. and now the entire media perception is that Muslims will respond with violence if you insult their religion. Idiots are present everywhere, in every religion, in every area, in every job (even President). We can't do anything about it, it's a fact of life, but what we can do is to not label every person within a certain group with the same tag, because we've seen one person from that group do something.

 

[Kabouter]

What? You think France and the Netherlands aren't having second thoughts about allowing them to immigrate in the first place?

Sadly, you are correct. There is increasing support for such measures. Or, well, there is in the Netherlands anyway. I don't know about France, since I'm not too up to date on their immigration policies.

As to the point that Islam cannot be attacked without fear of a violent response, most Muslims were not violent when e.g. the cartoons were published.

Sadly, it takes just one crazy fanatic.

 

[Tyrannical]

Sadly, you are correct. There is increasing support for such measures. Or, well, there is in the Netherlands anyway. I don't know about France, since I'm not too up to date on their immigration policies.

I seem to recall rioting in france by muslim immigrants a few months ago, not sure over what. I wonder if France has stopped allowing black african muslim polygamists? I seem to recall one that used to go back to his village every few years and come back with a new wife. Four wives and around 20 kids. Glad I don't pay into their wellfare system.

 

[Kabouter]

I seem to recall rioting in france by muslim immigrants a few months ago, not sure over what. I wonder if France has stopped allowing black african muslim polygamists? I seem to recall one that used to go back to his village every few years and come back with a new wife. Four wives and around 20 kids. Glad I don't pay into their wellfare system.

Direct cause for rioting I believe was some Muslim criminals getting killed by cops or something, could be something else, but it's usually that. Of course the real cause is the gigantic social and economic inequality between a large block of people consisting mainly of immigrants and the rest of France.

 

[Lobster]

Everytime I hear how Islam is a religion of violence I think about those 60,000 women that were raped by Christians for no reason during the crusades.

 

[Tyrannical]

Direct cause for rioting I believe was some Muslim criminals getting killed by cops or something, could be something else, but it's usually that. Of course the real cause is the gigantic social and economic inequality between a large block of people consisting mainly of immigrants and the rest of France.

I would say the problem is a large group of immigrants that have no interest in adopting French culture.

 

[ToxicAdam]

Everytime I hear how Islam is a religion of violence I think about those 60,000 women that were raped by Christians for no reason during the crusades.

I have no horse in this race, but come on dude. That was almost 1000 years ago.

There are still parts of the world where women are killed because of witchcraft in Islamic countries.

 

[ToxicAdam]

gbnhg

 

[Alien Bob]

Everytime I hear how Islam is a religion of violence I think about those 60,000 women that were raped by Christians for no reason during the crusades.

Everytime I hear about something bad I think about something worse and the bad thing seems good again

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Everytime I hear how Islam is a religion of violence I think about those 60,000 women that were raped by Christians for no reason during the crusades.

Whoa.

Hey, do you remember that time 30,000 years ago when your ancestor bitch slapped my ancestor? I'm going to get you good for that!

 

[DSWii60]

There are still parts of the world where women are killed because of witchcraft in Islamic countries.

?


See this is exactly what I mean by labelling. Women are killed because of witchcraft in Islamic countries. Next time maybe I should give the example of Zimbabwe and Mugabe and say "Hey, look, this is what's done in Christian countries."

Edit: Cultural practices should not be heaped upon a religion e.g. honour killings, witchcraft, treating women inferiorly etc.

Edit 2: corrected mistake, see below post

 

[Kabouter]

I would say the problem is a large group of immigrants that have no interest in adopting French culture.

Can't say I blame them for that
But nah, I definitely wouldn't put it that simply. While what you say may be true for a good portion of them, others are willing to work, but find themselves discriminated against. Not to mention the government isn't really doing enough to improve the situation of these people.

?


See this is exactly what I mean by labelling. Women are killed by witchcraft in Islamic countries. Next time maybe I should give the example of Zimbabwe and Mugabe and say "Hey, look, this is what's done in Christian countries."

Killed by witchcraft? Then these backwards nations have the right idea by fighting these witches!

 

[Kildace]

replace them with mexicans!

No, not replace them. I want tons of mexicans to migrate to France so we get Kebabs AND Nachos.

That would be heaven, heaven!

 

[Lobster]

I have no horse in this race, but come on dude. That was almost 1000 years ago.

There are still parts of the world where women are killed because of witchcraft in Islamic countries.

There are still parts in America where black people are kill because they don't like them.

Whoa.

Hey, do you remember that time 30,000 years ago when your ancestor bitch slapped my ancestor? I'm going to get you good for that!

:lol

 

[AmMortal]

All of these things that make you think to yourself and proclaim " Islam must be oppresive to women" " Islam is backward" . Have in fact nothing to do with Islam itself.

It is culture, and the fact that most of you here are ignorant of foreign cultures, and can't even seperate religion from culture, adds to that.

 

[ToxicAdam]

There are still parts in America where black people are kill because they don't like them.

I thought the discussion was about religion and fanatacism?

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

There are still parts in America where black people are kill because they don't like them.

Where? Really.

 

[Lobster]

I thought the discussion was about religion and fanatacism?

It seemed like it went into judging books by their covers to me.

Where? Really.

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/04/25/18495096.php

 

[itsinmyveins]

It was in a different thread that I called for a halt of latino immigration to the US.

Why would you wanna do that?

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Saying "parts of America" makes it sound like the actions of a community, not rogue cops.

 

[AmMortal]

That's because some people here see Muslims as a threat. The truth is that all of these extreme organistations, have interests conflicting with the US foreign policy. So people turn it Islam versus America or similiar. They aren't aware that Muslims are from all nationalities, they still think that Islam is only arabs or Afghan's or Pakistani people. American- English- German- we are all over the place.

These extremists feel like they are being hunted down, and so they take the option that is " Defend youself" in Islam and use it as a justification for their actions. Putting out articles like this and people like Geert Wilders, only spark fire.

No,matter how much we try to explain to people, there are individuals like Geert Wilders destroying the sincere work we built up. He is a factor for fueling even more extremists. He's giving even more people reasons to become extreme.

Look at the misunderstandings here for instance, all of a sudden Muslims have become the enemy, you are no different then those extremists who say the same thing about you.

P.S

Please someone change the thread title...offending.

 

[lastendconductor]

What's wrong with polygamy? humans are made so one man can inseminate plenty of women. It seems logical that he would marry them to support them, ensure its children are his own and protect them together. What's wrong with it again?

 

[AmMortal]

What's wrong with polygamy? humans are made so one man can inseminate plenty of women. It seems logical that he would marry them to support them, ensure its children are his own and protect them together. What's wrong with it again?

Nothing to me hehe.

 

[Fatbot]

Also, having been on the receiving end of "What about TED RALL!?!? What about WARD CHURCHILL!?!?" more than once, I'm veeeeery skeptical that these demands are made in good faith or likely to lead to more cross-ideological understanding.

Atheism doesn't have an inherent ideology, which its greatest strength and weakness. Rather than trying to defend existentialism or objectivism and how that works within our governmental and moral framework, It's pretty much just been atheists knocking down the strawman of contextualized religion over the last ten years.

The argument died 50 years ago and the advent of the internet just let people in to fight over the scraps.

 

[Kaeru]

That's because some people here see Muslims as a threat. The truth is that all of these extreme organistations, have interests conflicting with the US foreign policy. So people turn it Islam versus America or similiar. They aren't aware that Muslims are from all nationalities, they still think that Islam is only arabs or Afghan's or Pakistani people. American- English- German- we are all over the place.

These extremists feel like they are being hunted down, and so they take the option that is " Defend youself" in Islam and use it as a justification for their actions. Putting out articles like this and people like Geert Wilders, only spark fire.

No,matter how much we try to explain to people, there are individuals like Geert Wilders destroying the sincere work we built up. He is a factor for fueling even more extremists. He's giving even more people reasons to become extreme.

Look at the misunderstandings here for instance, all of a sudden Muslims have become the enemy, you are no different then those extremists who say the same thing about you.

P.S

Please someone change the thread title...offending.

Or what? :lol

Islam has strokes of violence in it's theology and rhetoric, and until the community as a whole take responsibility for the actions committed in it's name and stop blaming specific "cultures" then we will see change. The change has to come from the inside, right now nobody is taking responsibility and this shit will continue.
Remove the scarfs, remove all Imams who continue to give anti-semitic speeches in the mosques, remove the privilege that a few people have to interpret the Koran and make it available for anyone to do so, make the Arab world a democracy, liberate your women, and show that you are really doing all you can to fight terrorism in the name of Islam.

When that happens I will no longer consider Islam a religion that has undertones of violence and hatred.

 

[Earthstrike]

All of these things that make you think to yourself and proclaim " Islam must be oppresive to women" " Islam is backward" . Have in fact nothing to do with Islam itself.

It is culture, and the fact that most of you here are ignorant of foreign cultures, and can't even seperate religion from culture, adds to that.

But if people believe their religion justifies their culture, then doesn't that regress the rate at which the culture changes?

 

[Primordial]

You could rewrite the OP and search and replace Muslim with Christian. Insert IRA and UDA, and you suddenly have incredibly violent extremists. The OP has friction because it's well-written and feels convincing - and indeed it is.
But it is, as others here have said, insulting to the vast majority of Muslims who don't want this shit to represent their religion any more than Christians want the atrocities of the IRA and UDA to represent theirs. As soon as we apply that thinking wholesale to the entire religion, we create an "other" that is easy to hate. A human habit that works as much as it sucks.
One problem here is the fact that there are almost no Christian states and plenty of Islamic states - so an imbalance of literal political (and diplomatic) correctness does exist. Which is one of two reasons we're referred to as the "West" instead of simply "Christians" and the other of course being the inconvenient fact that Christ is an Islamic figure.
It all sucks balls and I wish it would go away.

Truth.

I think its absolutely ridiculous that Muslims are held to a standard Muslims as community can never live up to. Why should Muslims in America be responsible and constantly condemn every little stupid/violent/extremist thing that some Muslims across the world thousands of miles away are saying? First learn to treat us as individual human with different aspirations and variegated communities.

Right wing pundits are constantly making incendiary and downright bigoted comments about Muslims everyday, you do not see them getting killed. The idea that westerners can not talk about Muslims in fear of violence is ludicrous.

I can assure no one is more concerned, more worried, more hurt and more stressed by violence than Muslims. Afterall majority of victime of extremists/sectarian violence in Iraq, Afghanistan, Bali, Pakistan or Sudan are other disenfranchised Muslims. More at stake for Muslims in these parts of the world to physically survive and economically prosper than most of you will ever about

I believe the power differentials that exists between West Europe and America and rest of the world creates such angry reactions from some Muslims in these parts of the world (this analysis also applies to other communities). Due to history of the last three centuries the Western world came to enjoy a certain power of definition. Its literature and media can say and do things that can deeply hurt the psyche of non whites. However non-whites can not respond in any way that can equalize this situation. An example would be a teacher is never affected by a young kid calling him stupid bit if the teacher calls the young kid a retard then the kid is negatively affected by it. However whether a teacher or a young kid everyone fears getting hit by stick. A teacher would be just as hurt as the young kid physically if hit by a stick. I am not justifying violence but trying to show why physical violence have become the primary response by individuals/groups disenfranchised community; especially communities that are deeply hurt by things said by western world to which it many ways looks up to.

This may also explain why many intellectuals in western world has turned physical violence as The Modern Evil and have not really given due consideration to or theorized about psychological violence. After all, western world much like the teacher in the example above does not give a damn about what the rest of the world (much like the young kid) say about it. But it does fear the stick. (This also applies different state structures present in most developing countries that uses violences to quell any opposition)

This also underlies the essay posted in OP. And one need not look any further than the assumptions made in the posts before me. Some people would stop at nothing but to impose liberal tyranny over Muslims in America or Europe in order for them to fit in. People are not really working toward genuine pluralism.

 

[AmMortal]

Or what? :lol

Islam has strokes of violence in it's theology and rhetoric, and until the community as a whole take responsibility for the actions committed in it's name and stop blaming specific "cultures" then we will see change. The change has to come from the inside, right now nobody is taking responsibility and this shit will continue.
Remove the scarfs, remove all Imams who continue to give anti-semitic speeches in the mosques, remove the privilege that a few people have to interpret the Koran and make it available for anyone to do so, make the Arab world a democracy, liberate your women, and show that you are really doing all you can to fight terrorism in the name of Islam.

When that happens I will no longer consider Islam a religion that has undertones of violence and hatred.

This post, is the most ridiculous post I have ever seen.


Ah, why do I even bother..

Okay, have it your way,Islam is violent and backwards, the whole world pales in comparison to what you think here on gaf. Yes, you know more about Islam then Muslims.

So we should uncover our women?
Cool, so Nons are terrorists too, I mean hey, they cover themselves.

Make the arab world a democracy? What's that got to do with Islam?

Are you demented?

You did not read my previous post, read it again, it proves me true that you only think that arabs are Muslims.

Take the privilege away from only some people have to interpret the Qur'an?

What the hell are you talking about?

Every Muslim is supposed to read the Qur'an every morning, we aren't like some christian sects who only allow the priest to interpret the bible for them. We are supposed to aquire knowledge by looking into things. Muslims are known for that. Do you research before you even post that crap.

By offending Islam you are offending the fastest growing religion on earth, also the one with the biggest single denomination on earth.

We don't have to apologize for some people do, although it's clear that they have been provoked ( cartoons).

Yes, I said cartoons, do you think that any newspaper can publish the old Nazi anti-jewish cartoons? This was on the same level. So stfu.

 

[Vito]

Sadly, you are correct. There is increasing support for such measures. Or, well, there is in the Netherlands anyway. I don't know about France, since I'm not too up to date on their immigration policies.

Hm, tell me more Nice to see at least some European countries aren't complete cowards.

 

[proposition]

I have no horse in this race, but come on dude. That was almost 1000 years ago.

There are still parts of the world where women are killed because of witchcraft in Islamic countries.

I'm pretty sure this kind of thing has happened more than once in Christian African countries too.

 

[dave is ok]

We don't have to apologize for some people do, although it's clear that they have been provoked ( cartoons).

Not really helping your cause. Cartoons are harmless, even religiously insensitive ones. Unless, someone is forcing papercuts between your fingers with a picture of Mohammed dressed as a terrorist: the justice that was sought for "provoking" was above and beyond the extend of the provocation itself.

 

[Kabouter]

Hm, tell me more Nice to see at least some European countries aren't complete cowards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders < Strongest anti-immigrant and especially anti-Islamic sentiments voiced by him and his party.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Verdonk < Heads the fastest growing anti-immigrant party if polls are any indication.

According to polls, their parties would get about a fifth of the seats in parliament in a next election, which is a LOT.

We don't have to apologize for some people do, although it's clear that they have been provoked ( cartoons).

Yeah, satirical cartoons are a proper justification for violence....oh....wait. Gtfo with that shit.

 

[Stridone]

Yes, I said cartoons, do you think that any newspaper can publish the old Nazi anti-jewish cartoons? This was on the same level. So stfu.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders < Strongest anti-immigrant and especially anti-Islamic sentiments voiced by him and his party.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Verdonk < Heads the fastest growing anti-immigrant party if polls are any indication.

According to polls, their parties would get about a fifth of the seats in parliament in a next election, which is a LOT.

Yeah, unfortunately. They're nothing but populists.

 

[Guileless]

What's wrong with polygamy? humans are made so one man can inseminate plenty of women. It seems logical that he would marry them to support them, ensure its children are his own and protect them together. What's wrong with it again?

The Western liberal conception of individual autonomy. If you prefer an authority-based hierarchical patriarchy and need lots of family labor for economic success, have at it. I think there's a place in Texas that needs replacement guys to 'inseminate plenty of women.'

 

[Earthstrike]

Yes, I said cartoons, do you think that any newspaper can publish the old Nazi anti-jewish cartoons? This was on the same level. So stfu.

Do you think if they were, the response from the jewish community would entail death threats and murder ( if feasible).

 

[Kinitari]

Or what? :lol

Islam has strokes of violence in it's theology and rhetoric, and until the community as a whole take responsibility for the actions committed in it's name and stop blaming specific "cultures" then we will see change. The change has to come from the inside, right now nobody is taking responsibility and this shit will continue.
Remove the scarfs, remove all Imams who continue to give anti-semitic speeches in the mosques, remove the privilege that a few people have to interpret the Koran and make it available for anyone to do so, make the Arab world a democracy, liberate your women, and show that you are really doing all you can to fight terrorism in the name of Islam.

When that happens I will no longer consider Islam a religion that has undertones of violence and hatred.

Uhm... what?

1. You want a harmless religious practice (Hijabs) to be denounced because YOU think its going to make shit better? When its something thats been practiced for hundreds and hundreds of years?

2. Imams who give anti-semitic speeches in the mosques are on par with reverends who give anti-islamic speeches in churches, which happens. Both of these things are stupid and spread hate, but free-speech prevents us from stopping it. To pick on one without picking on the other would just cause more strife.

3. 'Interpret the Koran' ? Like... you mean, take the book away from them? Because that's like the only way to -do- that. You are making interpretation sound likes its an arduous task - you READ the book, then you decide what to take from it.

4. 'Liberate your women' - I agree some countries have some rules that don't nearly appreciate or respect women enough, but to make it the task of what... Islam? Like it's some entity all on its own, to liberate them? And EVEN then, what is your definition of liberation? Taking off the scarves? Or bringing more equality laws into play? 'Liberation' is all well and good, but it needs reason. And if some women are truly happy and don't want things to change, but others do - then you've hit a moral gray area.

5. Fighting terrorism in the name of Islam - Now THIS. THIS is the biggest piece of bullshit in this post. To even INSINUATE that it is the job of Muslims as a people to go about and fight this bullshit war in the name of protecting America during its bullshit crusade against a bunch of guerrilla forces - in which doing so, has eventually led up in the deaths of THOUSANDS of innocents - when a lot of these Islam-centric countries have 102452324 Problems of their OWN, is so self-centric and vain that it is ridiculous, and this ideology is one of the main reasons a lot of countries have such distaste for the west. The fucking world doesn't revolve around you (the West), your ideals, or your crusades.