Support NeoGAF

[AncientOrigin]

It should be like in school.First grad math is for the ones difficult who learn it new.But in third grade the Mathe from the first grade is super easy that is how it should be in games.Means the enemies which you encounter first are on your level they only improve a little like any being which practices.But later when you come back you are way stronger than those enemies.Actually level scaling makes perfect sence your humanoid opponent learns and practices like you so if you build muscle he does too maybe he is more talented too so when you meet in a year he destroys you that’s how it is in real life with humans.Of course a dog is always a dog can improve in some areas like smelling special stuff or so but can learn Kung Fu

 

[Kataploom]

I had no idea so many people dislike level scaling. I first experienced it in Oblivion and thought it was the coolest thing ever. I didn't get way, WAY overpowered and bored with the game due to no challenge. I still got OP eventually, but the game was still fun. I don't get why so many people would want to be able to kill everything super easy. Where is the challenge in that?

Well, being overpowered due to my own effort is fun and satisfying, the challenge is not always the combat but building a character that becomes stronger as I push it. JRPGs are mostly for people that want to understand and exploit the character growth system and that the game is not only fighting enemies but getting stronger, they're also stats games.

Level scaling breaks that game for us, there's no growth notion, one thing is getting overpowered because of some fierce deity armor that magically makes you a demigod and other is to build that strength little by little and knowing you earned that yourself. Seems like even when playing same titles, some play totally different games...

 

[bbeach123]

I can tolerate most level scaling . But that one game , idk , Wolcen ?

Yea that fcking game had one of the worst level scaling I ever played in video game . Monster doesnt scale up with you , its actually your stats scale down after every level up . Your attack speed going down , your accuracy going down , your status alliment going down , your crit rate going down . No I know , diablo and POE scaling was different . At least your attack speed doesnt go down after level up in these game . AND why WOULD MY ATTACK SPEED GOING DOWN WHEN MY CHARACTER LEVEL UP .

God damn still malding af thinking about it .

 

[Duchess]

This is where being able to change the difficulty on the fly really shines.

That one-off difficulty spike against a boss really starting to piss you off? Knock the difficulty down one notch to get past it, then push it back up.

Game becoming boring because you're OP and enemies are dropping like flies? Push the difficulty up a notch.

I actually think that the Ratchet and Clank games try to do some sort of dynamic difficulty. It seems the only you go without dying or incurring a lot of damage, the tougher the enemies will become. Then, as you start to die, their health and numbers reduce. It works okay, but you can break it by simply killing yourself a lot on purpose.

 

[hemo memo]

No level scaling is rarely done right. You either end up being overpowered too fast or hit a roadblock and then have to go back and grind.

Shit‘s for you guys with too much time on your hands.

Level scaling is a good compromise I think. Though, it‘s rarely done right as well… so, yeah… still better. Grinding for levels in order to proceed is the epitome of trash gamedesign.

Come at me.

How is being overpowered is bad? It is fun being overpowered. Also in a good RPG you could be overpowered against normal enemies but bosses are a puzzle that you can’t one shot with a physical attack and be done with.

 

[GenericUser]

It's kinda necessarry in Diablo 4 though.

 

[RoadHazard]

Yeah, I hate it, it completely ruins the sense of growing more powerful. I want to be able to completely obliterate enemies that earlier in the game were giving me trouble. At the same time, there should be enemies I just cannot handle yet, that I will have to go back to when I'm more powerful. That's rewarding.

So yeah, I don't understand why it's done. Or, I do, but it just means you weren't able to actually balance your game's difficulty, i.e. bad game design.

 

[Fuz]

It's not that it's bullshit... it's just stupid and pointless and feels like the devs are mocking you.
Just don't put levels in your game in the first place if you think you'll need scaling.

 

[Honey Bunny]

I have never understood it. What is even the point of having a levelling mechanic if the rest of the world levels with you.

 

[hemo memo]

Yeah, I hate it, it completely ruins the sense of growing more powerful. I want to be able to completely obliterate enemies that earlier in the game were giving me trouble. At the same time, there should be enemies I just cannot handle yet, that I will have to go back to when I'm more powerful. That's rewarding.

So yeah, I don't understand why it's done. Or, I do, but it just means you weren't able to actually balance your game's difficulty, i.e. bad game design.

In my opinion the game should be balanced that you don’t have to grind. An RPG that requires grinding is a bad RPG. By grinding I mean going out of your way to do battles. The battles you do on your way should be enough. That’s how I finished FFX. Until the last boss which was a huge difficulty spike and I believe they screwed it up there. So I used Riku trio.

 

[RoadHazard]

In my opinion the game should be balanced that you don’t have to grind. An RPG that requires grinding is a bad RPG. By grinding I mean going out of your way to do battles. The battles you do on your way should be enough. That’s how I finished FFX. Until the last boss which was a huge difficulty spike and I believe they screwed it up there. So I used Riku trio.

Having properly leveled enemies with no scaling doesn't necessarily mean you have to grind though, it just means there are some areas you probably shouldn't be going to until you have gone through some easier ones. Just like any linear game that increases the challenge as you go, except you have to make those decisions for yourself.

 

[RoboFu]

I much prefer the old school “different areas have different difficulties “.
Sure that keeps you in one area longer but if you make an interesting world with interesting quests then it’s not a problem.

The big pain in D4 so far is the large amounts of running around. Battles are not a problem. The grind is the running 4 miles for each quest.

 

[kyussman]

I've used it in a couple of very long games,The Witcher III was one of them......I had no issue with it.

 

[The Cockatrice]

Lot of upvotes on OP. Weak casuals. I hope all games are hard as fuck. That being said, funny you mention Diablo because the game is easy as fuck, at least the first world tiers. No idea how you can have any issues with it unless ure just bad at games.

 

[hemo memo]

Having properly leveled enemies with no scaling doesn't necessarily mean you have to grind though, it just means there are some areas you probably shouldn't be going to until you have gone through some easier ones. Just like any linear game that increases the challenge as you go, except you have to make those decisions for yourself.

I’m talking about following the main story specifically. Take FFXII for example. Following the main story you will not hit a roadblock if you don’t skip every enemy on the way. That’s balance. Do a lot of hunts and grind and you’ll be over-leveled but that’s not the game’s fault. Funny story, first time playing FFXII I grind so much that I defeated the boss that the game expected you to escape from. That’s not the fault of the game.

 

[Hoya Destroyer]

I think level scaling can be a good thing. I used it in both Skyrim and The Witcher III, when I felt the game was becoming too easy. I wanted to exist in a dangerous world and making the enemies more powerful helped accomplish that.
Level scaling in both those games was optional though. I think its best to let the player chose this kind of stuff for themselves.

 

[saintjules]

I don't mind level scaling provided it's reasonable int erms of difficulty.

That being said I wasn't a fan of AC Origins level scaling.

 

[Lasha]

Level scaling makes sense in a world where players are rushed to an endless endgame. What difference does it make if you spend an hour grinding to gain a level or an hour grinding to get an item that gives the exact same power as being a level higher? Both options require no real progression in the abilities of the player. Blame developers for removing artificial progression and not replacing it with meaningful gameplay.

 

[Rockondevil]

Yeah generally not a fan of it. I’d rather eventually become a badass.
I much prefer Elden Ring’s style where you can make things hard or easy depending on how you want to grind.

 

[Ben87fr]

I knew this would be about Diablo 4 before coming in this topic

 

[Beastclaw Raider]

False, gear level power will completely make you overpower/stronger in D4. Levels have nothing to do with it, they've decided to go with gear lvl like in WoW

 

[fatmarco]

Put bluntly, a "Rat" I fight at level 1, which at that point has say, 25 hp, should not suddenly have more 100 hp or do more damage when I fight him at level 30.

Like someone said, different enemies, larger hordes of enemies, or at the very least upgraded variants are the only reasonable choices.

 

[lyan]

it's not about that. it's about returning back to where you started after a couple dozen hours, & having the same amount of trouble beating that pack of wolves/spiders/zombies you had trouble with at the very beginning...

it's not about not having challenging new enemies. it's about having older enemies be still as challenging as they originally were...

Usually in games with level scaled enemies the player is still going to scale better. So what you described is either a poor implementation which means the designers are likely to make a different bad design choice anyway even if there is no level scaling, or the player has failed to grasp the systems and make a decent build.

 

[Mephisto40]

If they didn't have level scaling in Diablo, it would be way too easy to just steamroll through the content in a few days and never play it again, so it makes sense for them to have it in the game if they want people to keep playing it for months and years after release

 

[Filben]

Diablo 3 and 4 is especially weird with all those difficulty levels. You increase the difficulty to get a moderate or tough challenge. Once you hit too tough challenges you turn down the difficulty (if it's an equipment problem) until you find better equipment to increase your power and/or make builds work and then again increase the difficulty again.

Just the other day my friend was already playing Diablo 4 and said to me he decreased the difficulty because it takes too long to kill enemies otherwise.

Why do I want to improve my game and character if I can constantly changing world tiers/difficulty levels?

And as for the scaling, I'm with you, OP. I don't see the point in becoming stronger. In fact, being stronger relatively spoken, isn't even true. It's all the same. Only visual effects seem to increase. Gameplay wise it doesn't make a fucking difference.

Instead of having a flat scaling system you could always scale some enemies to surprise you. Maybe those 20 bandits from before weren't much of a problem anymore but this one is particual good and challenges you. Give me boss and mid-boss fights that require good equipment and player and/or character skills and balancing. Make some side quests so that they offer a challenge, so you improve your character for that and not only for doing a Greater Rift 78 instead of 75 which looks the fucking same if you're not being told abs unless you're a hardcore player even if you're being told.

 

[Doctor Hades]

Much as I as I have been enjoying Diablo 4 since Friday and over 30 hours playtime to level 46 on my Sorcerer character - the game is certainly the very definition of "addictive" in my opinion - I will say that the way the game scales enemies as you level up is becoming a bit annoying. This is because despite being on World Tier 1, as a solo gamer, I have encountered some frustrating end dungeon bosses that made me abandon the main quest to focus on the side ones instead. This resulted in me basically ignoring most of the main quests and while I have unlocked Act III (I think), I have only just completed some of the main quests from Act I, which sounds a bit strange when I write that as normally you would expect the Acts to unlock in a linear fashion as you complete the main quests (unless I am misunderstanding something).

Anyway, the whole point of the side quests and world exploration in a game like this is to level up and give myself an advance for when I do the main quests. Sure, I would get less experience at higher levels but at least I have a means of progressing through the game if I get stuck. The way level scaling works in Diablo 4 though means this tactic is no longer possible and I personally feel that is a mistake because it removes the feeling of being an increasingly more powerful hero. I am not sure if I am correct but some dungeons do seem to have level scaling of up to +4 so for example one I did yesterday was listed as level 40-44 and I did that at level 44. Am I correct in saying that with those I do have an advance at level 44 compared with level 40?

I think that Diablo 4 should allow players to level up +5 over the enemy levels. I mean just add difficulty levels like Diablo 3 had as that game felt much better balanced to me than Diablo 4 does.

 

[CatLady]

Well, being overpowered due to my own effort is fun and satisfying, the challenge is not always the combat but building a character that becomes stronger as I push it. JRPGs are mostly for people that want to understand and exploit the character growth system and that the game is not only fighting enemies but getting stronger, they're also stats games.

Level scaling breaks that game for us, there's no growth notion, one thing is getting overpowered because of some fierce deity armor that magically makes you a demigod and other is to build that strength little by little and knowing you earned that yourself. Seems like even when playing same titles, some play totally different games...

That's an excellent explanation. I don't like or play JRPGs. One of the main reasons I play games is for a challenge and I've never looked at from your angle. It absolutely makes sense now. Thank you.

 

[anthraticus]

I had no idea so many people dislike level scaling. I first experienced it in Oblivion and thought it was the coolest thing ever. I didn't get way, WAY overpowered and bored with the game due to no challenge. I still got OP eventually, but the game was still fun. I don't get why so many people would want to be able to kill everything super easy. Where is the challenge in that?

You do know it's possible to make an RPG that doesn't have awful level scaling like Oblivious and is still a challenge, right ?

It's called game design. Sounds like someone's been playing too much AAA popamole, JRPGs, etc...

 

[CuteFaceJay]

I've not noticed it to be an issue yet. I was playing it yesterday came across a bunch of vampires in the snow that would take a good few hits later that night sure they scale but I'm also now able to 1shot whole groups of them.

I think the lv scale is to make sure it's then dropping loot based on or closer to the level you're currently on so they aren't just feeding you junk low lv loot but high lv junk loot I guess?

I've not played much but from the bits I have played I can sure feel a difference in between mob diff even if they are the same lv.

 

[Companion Cube]

In the case of D4, they took down a HUGE barrier to group play with scaling.

People that have been grinding an unhealthy amount of hours since pre-release can play with people just getting into the game without having to make a new character.

They can continue getting their legendaries and gems and the newer lower level people with them can contribute to fights and have a reasonably equal experience.

I say reasonably because you absolutely can run around in D4 being OP if you build for it.

If you’re hitting paragon levels and you’re not melting hordes and mowing down bosses, it’s not the scaling holding you back.

 

[Doom85]

You do know it's possible to make an RPG that doesn't have awful level scaling like Oblivious and is still a challenge, right ?

It's called game design. Sounds like someone's been playing too much AAA popamole, JRPGs, etc...

Christ, generally Dungeons and Dragons itself (at least 5th Edition which I’ve played) will have level scaling. Sure, it’ll be at the DM’s discretion, maybe they do want the occasional moment of the party absolutely wrecking weaker enemies, but generally they’re throwing enemies at the players who can provide a decent enough challenge.

 

[nemiroff]

I look at level scaling as I do with rubber banding in racing games; There are good implementations, and there are bad implementations.

Forza Horizon series had good rubberbanding (despite still noticing its traits), Oblivion had bad level scaling and no fun systems around it to offset it.

Diablo 4 seems to me to have a pretty ok balance so far (Lvl.25, Tier 2). But it also depends on how good your build is, if you have a shit build it won't be fun and it won't give you a dynamic experience with micro-game loops and room to manouver..

With that said, at the end of the day I prefer Souls / Elden Ring type approach if possible.

 

[BossLackey]

Level scaling as it's implemented in D4 is bad and it usually is bad.

But I think if they could just create a scalable, dynamic version it would be a lot better.

 

[niilokin]

I like level scaling because I can go help friends with lower level characters and I get some challenge too, and the game world seems somewhat dangerous at all times. I still feel a lot more powerful at level 42 than at 20.

 

[anthraticus]

Christ, generally Dungeons and Dragons itself (at least 5th Edition which I’ve played) will have level scaling. Sure, it’ll be at the DM’s discretion, maybe they do want the occasional moment of the party absolutely wrecking weaker enemies, but generally they’re throwing enemies at the players who can provide a decent enough challenge.

Idk shit about no 5th edition, but the D&D I grew up with monsters, etc...stats don't change and you're supposed to be playing the proper adventure material for your parties level range.

 

[Loomy]

Thats part of the reason I disliked FFVIII. It defeats the entire purpose of playing RPGs. Pretty stupid mechanic.

To be fair, you could beat that game at "level 15"... while putting out out max damage

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

To be fair, you could beat that game at "level 15"... while putting out out max damage

That part was even dumber. Leveling up made you weaker (unless you had the stat growth bonuses from GFs, preferably 4 of them active from Cactuar). You could sit there like an idiot and draw 99 of a spell in a single battle to junction to your stats. Casting spells made you weaker. The “optimal” way to play was to avoid battles and instead play Triple Triad so you could convert cards to spells/materials.

Everything about that game was counterintuitive and nonsensical. Level scaling was only one of its problems. It was fun to break the game though.

 

[Sentenza]

I have never understood it. What is even the point of having a levelling mechanic if the rest of the world levels with you.

Valid question in more senses than one.
In fact it 's my opinion that "leveling mechanics + level scaling" is not just a pointless combo, but an actively harmful one, since it becomes functionally detrimental to immersion and to the credibility of your fictional world.
Especially when the game makes a big show of making level numbers explicitly shown above the character.

At that point removing levels from your system would actively improve the game in multiple ways: remove the immersion-breaking UI elements that come with it (level markers etc), contain the number bloat that makes early game content become implicitly irrelevant, favor non-linear exploration/design, etc.

For what is worth, I don't think level scaling is the only issue, either. I'm personally not a fan of leveling systems with an exponential growth in power, more in general, because they only contribute to exacerbate the artificiality and game-like nature of your setting.
The progressions system I prefer are the ones of the kind where you start at 20-30 HP and end up at 60-80 HP while a lot better at dealing/absorbing/dodging damage, rather than the ones where you start at 15 HP and end up at 9999 HP and strong enough to one-shot anything barely few levels below you.

 

[scydrex]

Hate the level scaling in every game. Then what's the point of leveling up? In FF8 didn't bother me so much but no thanks. If Diablo 4 have this not sure if i will play it would have to think about it.

 

[MetalRain]

How would you solve infinite loot game without level scaling?

 

[DeepEnigma]

How would you solve infinite loot game without level scaling?

Like Diablo 2 did. The GOAT.

 

[oji-san]

I agree with you and playing now The Witcher 3 feels good to kill some enemies with 1-2 blows. But some games like Borderlands 3 DLCs without level scaling is not fun, every enemy is way way below you and i turned on the option with the level scaling and had fun, so i guess it depends on the game but usually i turn this off.

 

[Loomy]

That part was even dumber. Leveling up made you weaker (unless you had the stat growth bonuses from GFs, preferably 4 of them active from Cactuar). You could sit there like an idiot and draw 99 of a spell in a single battle to junction to your stats. Casting spells made you weaker. The “optimal” way to play was to avoid battles and instead play Triple Triad so you could convert cards to spells/materials.

Everything about that game was counterintuitive and nonsensical. Level scaling was only one of its problems. It was fun to break the game though.

Oh yeah, from a systems perspective FF8 seems like a collection of ideas that were never tested for balance.

Do I run around that tiny ass island for an hour drawing magic like an idiot every time I replay it?
You bet I do! lol.

 

[Phase]

Like Diablo 2 did. The GOAT.

I don't remember this. Can you explain how it worked?

 

[Kacho]

How would you solve infinite loot game without level scaling?

Have areas with set mlvl ranges on WT1 & 2. Have the mlvl ranges scale up on higher WTs.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I don't remember this. Can you explain how it worked?

When you were powered up, you kicked the shit out of low level MF runs. Like it should be.

Otherwise, what's the point?

 

[semiconscious]

Which incidentally is true in both directions of the argument.

If your game "needs" some form of level scaling to maintain any resemblance of balance, maybe you should consider removing [traditional] levels and leveling entirely from the equation and design your game around a far less pronounced progression system (i.e. one where you just get new abilities and gear rather than inflating your numeric values across the board and/or a system where all these things have a far less pronounced effect.

absolutely. the numbers are all just an illusion at that point...

 

[MikeM]

Lot of upvotes on OP. Weak casuals. I hope all games are hard as fuck. That being said, funny you mention Diablo because the game is easy as fuck, at least the first world tiers. No idea how you can have any issues with it unless ure just bad at games.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

I'm playing Diablo 4 rn, and while the game is amazing, I think level scaling is horse shit especially in games like this.
You're never really overpowered, each time you level up the enemies lvl with you, I wanna wreck their shit up with ease, isn't this the point of leveling up? To become god like being after been stuck in enemy, that's part of why the souls game feel so rewarding.
Now that I think about it, i don't think I ever liked level scaling in any game before

 

[MikeM]

Level scaling, from a pure principle perspective, means that a horde of demons could technically take on the dark lords and win. Our character could kill Diablo/whomever but then struggle with a group of Act 1 demons.

Lol come on man…