Support NeoGAF

[Nydius]

In a purely single player game, I tend to agree. Level scaling ruins the power fantasy. But in coop games, I understand the necessity of them so that people can play together regardless of level and still be able to actually, well, play. It would suck if I wanted to group up with a friend but couldn't because I had more time to play and was so high level that he couldn't join my game or I couldn't join his without negatively impacting his experience.

Scaling in D4 seems fine to me, plus it still has world tiers you can choose yourself.

 

[twinspectre]

RPG casuals.

Skyrim is thatta way>>>>>>>

I love investing time into the world of RPGs games.

 

[Nautilus]

Oh, Diablo 4 has level scaling? Well, fuck.

Level scaling is such a garbage mechanic, it is the most distiled form of design laziness in providing challenge, and effectively kills any sense of progression. Its horse shit, and I dont understand why devs still implement it.

 

[JimmyRustler]

No level scaling is rarely done right. You either end up being overpowered too fast or hit a roadblock and then have to go back and grind.

Shit‘s for you guys with too much time on your hands.

Level scaling is a good compromise I think. Though, it‘s rarely done right as well… so, yeah… still better. Grinding for levels in order to proceed is the epitome of trash gamedesign.

Come at me.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Yup. Useless.

 

[CatLady]

I had no idea so many people dislike level scaling. I first experienced it in Oblivion and thought it was the coolest thing ever. I didn't get way, WAY overpowered and bored with the game due to no challenge. I still got OP eventually, but the game was still fun. I don't get why so many people would want to be able to kill everything super easy. Where is the challenge in that?

 

[FStubbs]

Level scaling is okay if done minimally (for example in Octopath Traveler 2, a L5 area moved up to L8 when I hit L16 or so). Having enemies straight up keep up with players makes leveling pointless.

 

[semiconscious]

I had no idea so many people dislike level scaling. I first experienced it in Oblivion and thought it was the coolest thing ever. I didn't get way, WAY overpowered and bored with the game due to no challenge. I still got OP eventually, but the game was still fun. I don't get why so many people would want to be able to kill everything super easy. Where is the challenge in that?

it's not about that. it's about returning back to where you started after a couple dozen hours, & having the same amount of trouble beating that pack of wolves/spiders/zombies you had trouble with at the very beginning...

it's not about not having challenging new enemies. it's about having older enemies be still as challenging as they originally were...

 

[Lucifers Beard]

I'm playing Diablo 4 rn, and while the game is amazing, I think level scaling is horse shit especially in games like this.
You're never really overpowered, each time you level up the enemies lvl with you, I wanna wreck their shit up with ease, isn't this the point of leveling up? To become god like being after been stuck in enemy, that's part of why the souls game feel so rewarding.
Now that I think about it, i don't think I ever liked level scaling in any game before

You can blame this on the open world design and MMO approach. Level scaling is usually bullshit, you're always playing catch up. However, I'm level 43 now and I'm curb stomping the shit out of everything in Tier 1. Literally just working through my cooldowns and occasionally dodging as a Sorcerer. Bumped it up to Tier 2 for the last few levels to see the difference.

 

[ZoukGalaxy]

Yeah, that's one of these worst idea ever with weapon durability. That's really an enjoyment killer in any game.

 

[sendit]

OP probably maxed out every resource generator skill.

 

[buenoblue]

Yeah I was talking about this in Hogwarts and assassins creed but I came to the conclusion that you are unlocking new skills and buffs so you do become more powerful so there is that.

 

[Schmendrick]

OP obviously never played beyond the tutorial....
At least in d4 the level scaling is not a problem simply because the levels don't matter since it's all gear/build driven. Find good gear and you get ridiculously op, simple as that.
Due to this design one could argue that the leveling itself is kind of pointless besides acting as a tutorial phase the first time, though.

 

[Saber]

I had no idea so many people dislike level scaling. I first experienced it in Oblivion and thought it was the coolest thing ever. I didn't get way, WAY overpowered and bored with the game due to no challenge. I still got OP eventually, but the game was still fun. I don't get why so many people would want to be able to kill everything super easy. Where is the challenge in that?

In order to beat enemies "super easy" as you say, you have to train and progress(work is the training process and beating the enemy is the reward). It's not like you suddenly becomes stronger, the concept of RPG its just like that. Its just that people doesn't like rpgs.

Level scaling is the dumbest thing ever, no offense for you liking this crap. Level scaling is only for super lazy devs that can't bother delegate fixed levels and challenging foes right and think every player is a potential overpower and broken character. Souls games aways amuses me because people aways complain about the necessity of this game needing an easy mode.

OP obviously never played beyond the tutorial....
At least in d4 the level scaling is not a problem simply because the levels don't matter since it's all gear/build driven. Find good gear and you get ridiculously op, simple as that.

The reviewer from Skill UP stated that having good gear(in his case legendary equips) doesn't make much difference.

 

[Begleiter]

I don't think I've seen an implementation of level scaling that really makes sense. There's probably a way to do it that feels satisfying, but mostly it seems like it's a lazy way to keep the difficulty fairly static and avoid real balancing. It kinda figures modern Blizzard would be all for it.

 

[cash_longfellow]

I agree…I should be able to spend my hard earned free time and grind some levels to beat the section, or boss, or whatever tf I want. I will never understand level scaling…but if I had to guess why devs incorporate it, it’s because of achievements or trophies.

 

[Schmendrick]

The reviewer from Skill UP stated that having good gear(in his case legendary equips) doesn't make much difference.

Then he absolutely doesn't know what he's talking about.
Meanwhile there are a dozen endgame builds popping up on yt every day with people mowing down endgame mobs in split seconds, how much faster than that exactly does one have to kill to be "op"?

 

[Saber]

Then he absolutely doesn't know what he's talking about.

He is one of best reviewers around and one to have the most integrity. He doesn't give you a 5 minute bootlicking review, it's basically a 30~40 minutes of a technical analys and breakdown of the game describing every good and bad point. Despite his criticism he still pretty much recommended the game.
I rather prefer to believe him, no offense.

 

[Puscifer]

Thats part of the reason I disliked FFVIII. It defeats the entire purpose of playing RPGs. Pretty stupid mechanic.

You can totally break the scaling though

 

[Schmendrick]

I rather prefer to believe him, no offense.

You can believe what you want ofc. But a reviewer that claims the gear in a diablo game would not make a difference has no clue what he's talking about, especially when the game is already out and it's plain to see that the reviewer either didn't know what he was doing or didn't have enough time.

Ofc you can also believe that all the build videos of the people that are already plowing through the endgame are all faked, too, including fake dmg number popups and all.....

 

[Puscifer]

Then he absolutely doesn't know what he's talking about.
Meanwhile there are a dozen endgame builds popping up on yt every day with people mowing down endgame mobs in split seconds, how much faster than that exactly does one have to kill to be "op"?

Just to add, I'm only level 25 and I'm clearing rooms with the Necro. I found a good combo of bone, corpse generation and hexes that I'm slowing down and exploding everything so quickly at times it's borderline boring

 

[Schmendrick]

Just to add, I'm only level 25 and I'm clearing rooms with the Necro. I found a good combo of bone, corpse generation and hexes that I'm slowing down and exploding everything so quickly at times it's borderline boring

Fake news. You can't be op because a reviewer said so.

 

[BlackTron]

I thought PSO handled this pretty well which was also an online RPG with a party of 4.

 

[pleaseinsertdisctwo]

Thats part of the reason I disliked FFVIII. It defeats the entire purpose of playing RPGs. Pretty stupid mechanic.

I usually hate level scaling, but with FFVIII in particular it’s really quite easy to make yourself overpowered. All it takes is using one of the numerous methods of gathering some magic and making a certain stat jump from 150 to 2500.

 

[Silver Wattle]

Yep, every game that uses level scaling sucks.

 

[Mercuryvoid]

The way I see it, the more you level, the more arsenal you have on your character to dispose your enemies. Yes, their level scale, but on higher level, you have abundant skill to use. That by itself, already made you powerful enough to one shot most fodders in the game. I don't know specific metric you use to calculate your OP-ness, but in my eyes, that is quite powerful while keep the in-game world relevant.

 

[dorkimoe]

I agreed up until a few hours ago; noticed with side quests in d4 I can still shred bosses but anything story related is actually tough. I don’t mind that. It’s scaled by level not gear right? Do better gear does help

 

[Northeastmonk]

Like everything else, put it as a toggle in the menu.

 

[Phase]

Oh, Diablo 4 has level scaling? Well, fuck.

Level scaling is such a garbage mechanic, it is the most distiled form of design laziness in providing challenge, and effectively kills any sense of progression. Its horse shit, and I dont understand why devs still implement it.

It's like the single player version of skill-based matchmaking. I'm sure it's not too bad in D4 but I prefer set power levels for rpgs, always.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

Lol, only game I ever played where leveling up made me weaker.

Oblivion had the most ass-backwards character progression I’ve ever seen. I hated it. If you play the way the game seemingly wanted you to play, you ended up permanently gimping yourself with crappy stat gains. Man that kind of thing triggers me.

 

[March Climber]

It's the laziest of RPG gameplay design. Always have said that, and always will.

When devs do level scaling then I feel like the best course of action is to scale back the length of the campaign. There are isometric action games that don't even have leveling(or very, very light leveling) but are somewhere between 6-18 hours and can be a fun little ride.

The Lara Croft Isometric games kind of did this and focused more on creating fun moments and engaging puzzles. It worked

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

When devs do level scaling then I feel like the best course of action is to scale back the length of the campaign. There are isometric action games that don't even have leveling(or very, very light leveling) but are somewhere between 6-18 hours and can be a fun little ride.

The Lara Croft Isometric games kind of did this and focused more on creating fun moments and engaging puzzles. It worked

These days level scaling is done when they WANT levels, but only in a fake sense. As in the game would work just as well if the levels don't exist and you just have gear and upgrades. This is what most Zelda games actually does, Gear based, health and money based, no levels.
The reason we hate level scaling is that the levels are just a way to fake a progression. Any game that has level scaling is better off not having levels at all.

 

[March Climber]

These days level scaling is done when they WANT levels, but only in a fake sense. As in the game would work just as well if the levels don't exist and you just have gear and upgrades. This is what most Zelda games actually does, Gear based, health and money based, no levels.
The reason we hate level scaling is that the levels are just a way to fake a progression. Any game that has level scaling is better off not having levels at all.

I agree. My suggestion was merely that if they decide to use level scaling, they should just work more on making fun and unique gameplay experiences rather than prolonged and drawn out experiences, since there's no actual sense of feeling more powerful.

 

[dreamstation]

On the topic of Diablo IV it makes a whole lot of sense to do it this way. Other games like Oblivion it doesn't.

 

[SatansReverence]

Given the fact that you're travelling the entire world constantly I'm quite happy that "early" areas aren't a useless push over.

My build has been getting stronger and faster as I play more. I'm now zoomin' and boomin' trash mobs in a matter of seconds while working through the paragon boards to get even stronger at a consistent rate.

You are not punished with worthless items/zero exp for visiting early dungeons either for quests or getting a specific aspect.

It is just a better system for an open world game.

 

[DownLikeBCPowder]

Yes, level scaling sucks cast majority of times and certainly sucks in Diablo IV.

 

[genesisblock]

I'm having this issue with AC: Odyssey. It doesn't exactly change the way you play the game, it just makes fighting more monotonous. This is treadmill design at it's worst; it gives you the impression that your moving forward when you just moving from the same spot.

Level scaling is nothing more than a dopamine tic, to see numbers go up for the sake of that does absolutely nothing to change your character's position. It even gets more egregious when it becomes a negative-sum game where enemies at the same level is overwhelmingly more powerful.

This is the moment where the whole "permanent XP boosts" become an actual scam. Forget the fact they made the game so grindy to level up, but knowing that is doesn't even give you ANY progression, save for skills that - let's face it, barely makes any difference other than lock them into an animation script to re-couperate your bearings.

 

[lh032]

Its a GaaS mechanic.

 

[FalsettoVibe]

I was super close to buying D4 until I discovered this. Not a fan of level scaling. Takes away the feeling of character progression.

 

[Aenima]

Only bad games use level scaling. Thers zero reason to have a level up system if the enemies are going to scale up to your level.

I hate this in the new Ass Creed games.

Remember that Lv1 rat you had to kill in the tutorial quest with a stick? Well, while you have been traveling the world, learning new skills, aquiring better armor and weapons, this is what the rat has been doing, awaiting your return.

 

[ANDS]

I. . .don't get the "I don't feel overpowered" perspective. The enemies in the game may not outpace your level, but your skills and utility sure as shit do. I don't understand how people can't feel overpowered when you have smooth-brain combos like Rogue's just infinite stun-locking enemies once they get the right aspects set up.

I have no doubt that once I get to the end of the campaign and start working out my gear to fit the play style I want, that encounters that were incredibly frustrating (I haven't actually been that frustrated on a boss given how cheap Poison Trap and Imbue Poison is on bosses) will be the murder grinds folks know and love. . .all with enemies that will always be a challenge in terms of damage dealt.

. . .like, opinions and all, but this is just a weird take and I feel like it's less out of actually thinking the system is "bullshit" and more that an ingame roadblock has been encountered.

 

[TexMex]

Pros and cons.

I’m with you, loving the game. On one hand yeah, I love the power fantasy stuff and just steam rolling guys. On the other I appreciate getting a reasonable amount of XP no matter what I’m doing, as well as the multiplayer compatibility piece mentioned by several people here.

I go back and forth if I’m for or against. But end of the day I’m loving the game too much to care.

 

[Fbh]

Haven't played D4 but I generally hate level scaling. It basically defeats the purpose of having leveling it all.

There's nothing less rewarding in an RPG than going back to an early area after 50 hours and not being able to demolish everything.

 

[CGNoire]

People who defend Level Scaling dont understand the point of Leveling up to begin with.

 

[Kagoshima_Luke]

The level scaling defenders are really odd. Apparently they think the hate for level scaling is because people either suck at the game or just want to face roll everything? So bizarre.

Level scaling is what actually takes away the difficulty. Everything is just sort of... there, as you level up. Enemies give a decent fight, but you'll kick their assess easy enough. You are level 2 and have starter gear? OK! The enemies are a bit tough, but you'll kick their assess. Level 57 and just found two legendary weapons? OK! The enemies are a bit tough, but you'll kick their assess.

Blizzard is in love with level scaling because it allows them to keep content relevant. Keep people running around the same areas over and over, no matter what level they are. Take longer to produce actual, new content. And people gleefully defend this?

 

[GHG]

Like everything else, put it as a toggle in the menu.

That would require them to put some effort into creating and balancing a non level scaled version of the game though.

 

[semiconscious]

I'm having this issue with AC: Odyssey. It doesn't exactly change the way you play the game, it just makes fighting more monotonous. This is treadmill design at it's worst; it gives you the impression that your moving forward when you just moving from the same spot.

Level scaling is nothing more than a dopamine tic, to see numbers go up for the sake of that does absolutely nothing to change your character's position. It even gets more egregious when it becomes a negative-sum game where enemies at the same level is overwhelmingly more powerful.

This is the moment where the whole "permanent XP boosts" become an actual scam. Forget the fact they made the game so grindy to level up, but knowing that is doesn't even give you ANY progression, save for skills that - let's face it, barely makes any difference other than lock them into an animation script to re-couperate your bearings.

perfect...

 

[Holammer]

The level scaling defenders are really odd. Apparently they think the hate for level scaling is because people either suck at the game or just want to face roll everything? So bizarre.

Level scaling is what actually takes away the difficulty. Everything is just sort of... there, as you level up. Enemies give a decent fight, but you'll kick their assess easy enough. You are level 2 and have starter gear? OK! The enemies are a bit tough, but you'll kick their assess. Level 57 and just found two legendary weapons? OK! The enemies are a bit tough, but you'll kick their assess.

Blizzard is in love with level scaling because it allows them to keep content relevant. Keep people running around the same areas over and over, no matter what level they are. Take longer to produce actual, new content. And people gleefully defend this?

I haven't played WoW for yonks, but I know it features scaling as well nowadays. Only difference between lvl 1 and 50 is the amount of buttons you press.
Blizzard is not in love, they snort the stuff.

 

[MaxwellParrish]

Like everything else, put it as a toggle in the menu.

This would be even worse. The entire world and enemies need to be thought in consideration of the presence/ absence of level scaling. Make it a togglable option swould completely broke any possibility of a meaningful progression

 

[Sentenza]

no argument here. level scaling completely defeats the point of leveling...

Which incidentally is true in both directions of the argument.

If your game "needs" some form of level scaling to maintain any resemblance of balance, maybe you should consider removing [traditional] levels and leveling entirely from the equation and design your game around a far less pronounced progression system (i.e. one where you just get new abilities and gear rather than inflating your numeric values across the board and/or a system where all these things have a far less pronounced effect.