adamosmaki
Member
Its a s***t mechanic. When i m levelling up i expect enemies i had trouble defeating to be easier and the game if its really well design it will give me a challenge by introducing new and better enemies
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Phase
Member
Right, but what specifics did they implement to make this a reality? That's what I'm asking because it's been ages since I've played it.
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hollowcupra
Member
You can become a god very early in the game. The junction system was broken in FF8 in the players favour.
devilNprada
Member
Diablo IV does it well actually.. Godlike comes with perks and gear rather than just level up a couple levels and come back..
Fighting NPC's 10 levels lower has never really been fun for me...
Fighting NPC's 10 levels lower has never really been fun for me...
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Nydius
Member
Precisely. I understand why people dislike it and even agree with them in many, if not most, cases. But for games like Diablo 4 scaling is, unfortunately, a necessary evil. Without scaling, it hamstrings the ability to play with others.
cormack12
Gold Member
The NPCs scale to your level though, not your gear/augments/skills.
So you can feel yourself getting more powerful by being able to have encounters with more enemies, more variance.
However it is always fun to go back and fuck up low level areas like what KoA did. I think a good balance would be to have clusters of low level enemies but an equal number of level equivalent. It was a pain in the ass in some areas of D2 looking for elites/named elites when farming.
So you can feel yourself getting more powerful by being able to have encounters with more enemies, more variance.
However it is always fun to go back and fuck up low level areas like what KoA did. I think a good balance would be to have clusters of low level enemies but an equal number of level equivalent. It was a pain in the ass in some areas of D2 looking for elites/named elites when farming.
MrTroubleMaker
Member
It essentially defeats the purpose of your character leveling. It's a dumb practice.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
There was no scaling in the original D2. Only type of monster scaling happened depending on the group size of 1-8.
Manwithoutfear
Member
I see where you're coming from, but what's funny is every point your brought up is opposite for me. Witcher 3 is a great example. without level scaling you just sneeze on targets and they die. i want to enjoy the combat the whole way through and it not become trivial. Your skill, abilities, and gear grow and you're still much more powerful than lower level content but you still have to think while engaging. I've beat most souls games, and other than farming souls I don't think I enjoy the idea of being that much stronger since theirs no level scaling. that's one reason I like it as an option. in assassins creed and witcher you can turn it on or off. best of both worlds. people like you can and enjoy the same game that people like me enjoy.
Dr_Ifto
Member
I used to think that level scaling sucked, but realisticly, the enemies should be near your level at all times. So you dont have that why are the easiest enemies near the camp all the time. Plus it allows for all mobs to drop better loot, xp, and whatnot.
There may be times I like to turn it off, but i usually leave it on. Witcher 3, Assassins Creed Odyssey, and a few others recently were better experiences with it on.
There may be times I like to turn it off, but i usually leave it on. Witcher 3, Assassins Creed Odyssey, and a few others recently were better experiences with it on.
TerribleAtThisGame
Member
I still remember the hilarity of watching my man split fucking boulders and red forest trees and when the game finally gives me control over an actual fight, each one of the trash mob grunts took like four massive combo chains to finish off.
(PS: I know this is off-topic, my bad, just needed to hate on it)
DeltaPolarBear
Member
If the enemy is always your level then you shouldn't have levels. Zelda games almost never have levels and it worked.
The complaint isn't inability to get stronger, it is the fact that leveling itself is being treated like fake-progression. Almost like the studio want to use it to give dopamine but don't actually want it to affect the game.
Much like how Anthem has fake damage numbers to make you think your character is killing monsters faster, when in fact you are taking longer to kill enemies than you were before. The fakeness is just dishonest. Just take the whole leveling thing away if you hate it so much.
Dr_Ifto
Member
The game gets easier with skills. I just recently played Tactics Ogre Reborn, and it had scaling. But as you leveled up and got skills, the game got easier and easier, and you could face bosses, which were always x levels above you easily cause skills are where you get the most improvement.
However, yes, scaling negates some need of scaling, but with the right balance it can work. Games should offer the ability to turn off scaling.
Roman Empire
Member
I hate that the most. I love when I enter a zone in an RPG just to see enemies with skulls or red lvl numbers beside their health bars saying "YOU CAME TO THE WRONG NEIGHBORHOOD!" and I do jack shit to them and get destroyed in a few hits or one-shot. Then later I come back and wreck everything up. That's power progression. You become a God amongst men! That's the beauty of RPGs to me.
That's not to say I'm totally against lvl scaling but it is mostly done wrong if enemies of early areas don't get melted by my endgame gear.
That's not to say I'm totally against lvl scaling but it is mostly done wrong if enemies of early areas don't get melted by my endgame gear.
hemo memo
Gold Member
Level scaling is the only reason why I hesitate every time I want to start FF8. I’m legitimately scared. I mean just recently finished Stick of Truth and it has level scaling but I still had no issues even with a high level and it is an easy RPG overall. Now FF8 the stories of how horrible the level scaling is scares me.
DeltaPolarBear
Member
FF8 is the case where leveling is BAD. As in if you do things right the easiest game is one where your level is as low as possible, because leveling is a detriment.
I mean it isn't as bad as Oblivion where the strongest character is an insomniac who is stuck at level 2. But FF8 is basically a game revolving around magic draws. The leveling is a trap and you should refuse to do it entirely.
That is another reason to hate level scaling; when it gets so bad that level up becomes a punishment.
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Comandr
Member
Level scaling mostly sucks. On one hand it’s an easy way to ensure there is always content for players to engage in, but on the other hand you never feel truly powerful.
In regards to Diablo 4, at the very least, one really good item can completely change the game though. I got some unique gloves last night that essentially made the game hold A to win.
I will never forget my frustration in FF14 killing various primals and ancient weapons and then going to a new region and some dipshit is like “help bugs are eating my crops
“
And then the bugs are level 70 and I’m having to throw my biggest spells at them and it’s like a 2 minute fight. Like what the fuck? I’m the warrior of light and these bees are hitting me harder than ultima weapon? Lame.
In regards to Diablo 4, at the very least, one really good item can completely change the game though. I got some unique gloves last night that essentially made the game hold A to win.
I will never forget my frustration in FF14 killing various primals and ancient weapons and then going to a new region and some dipshit is like “help bugs are eating my crops
“And then the bugs are level 70 and I’m having to throw my biggest spells at them and it’s like a 2 minute fight. Like what the fuck? I’m the warrior of light and these bees are hitting me harder than ultima weapon? Lame.
Herbspiceguy
Member
0 issues and it serves it's purpose.
D4 wants you to find good build synergies and gear to rolfstomp enemies. As it should be. And also makes it way more rewarding.
D4 wants you to find good build synergies and gear to rolfstomp enemies. As it should be. And also makes it way more rewarding.
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hemo memo
Gold Member
Yeah i’ve spent a lot of time reading about the game and the issue with level scaling in FF8 and the junction system etc. The more I read the more confused I get. I mean how did SE screwed up the game so bad that you need to actively avoid leveling up in an RPG?
DownLikeBCPowder
Member
It's fine, just enjoy it. It's a good game despite problems such as the scaling.
saintjules
Member
When I finished Chrono Trigger for the first time, I started new game+ and was surprised to see the enemies were still weak. I would have preferred level scaling in something like that.
raduque
Member
Melting everything in one hit as a god-level, super powerful character is how it should work. I hate it when what should be a low level mob swipes me for 70% of my giant HP pool, and it takes me 19 hits to kill it back
Video games can be different things, and a linear cinematic game is just a different experience from a super competitive arena shooter. Don't gatekeep.
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twinspectre
Member
It is not gatekeeping, it is just the fact that we already have movies why should a medium that is far bigger "bend" over for Hollywood?
MiguelItUp
Member
I didn't realize so many people disliked it. It's never really bothered me at all, because in the cases I've experienced it's clear that the scaling works the way it does for a specific reason/specific reasons. Nothing that I've ever played has ever felt like it was "just because", if that makes any sense. As long as I can "feel" the growth of my character in one way or another, I'm fine. Sure, sometimes the idea of flicking weak enemies with my finger only to have them explode sounds great, but it all depends on what the game is, how it plays, etc.
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Tygeezy
Member
Diablo 4 also has difficulty levels, so you can just go down a difficulty level if you want things to explode...
MiguelItUp
Member
Good point!
Justin9mm
Member
There needs to be balance, in general, levelling up should open you up to have more freedom with skills and abilities and make you feel more powerful but without being too overpowered and taking the challenge out completely unless the game is designed that way. I haven't played the Diablo games, very interested to try this one, but if it is as you described then the levelling to me seems to be broken / badly implemented.
raduque
Member
Yes, it is. It's interactive and you're far more immersed into the world that you can be with a movie (unless I suppose one of those weird VR movies). It's the same type of logic as "phone games aren't game" or "game without combat (such as Gone Home or The Vanishing of Ethan Carter) aren't games" and it's just wrong.
twinspectre
Member
Yes, exactly, the only immersion these "movie" like experience offers is the same as you being at the theater watching a movie.
Captain Toad
Banned
I thought that was part of the point with changeable difficulty levels, that levels your enemies when you want and increases rewards.
Bry0
Member
Nightmare dungeons still seem to work this way.
For multiplayer, it's great. I was playing last night with two people who are at different points of the game. It's cool that we all can be effective and progress together with as little friction as possible.
For single player it is a bit frustrating if the game experience is the same but more all the time. Everything kind of feels like a tutorial until endgame.
For single player it is a bit frustrating if the game experience is the same but more all the time. Everything kind of feels like a tutorial until endgame.
Thaedolus
Gold Member
It’s immersion breaking and fun breaking. Pulling off some stupid feat with your own ingenuity even though you’re underleveled, or because the devs didn’t account for your solution always feels rewarding. Invisible walls/artificial barriers always feel cheap.
If I wander into a cave in the first five minutes that has some lvl99 troll that one hits me, fine. If I can figure out a way to kill him anyway, even better. Don’t put up artificial barriers
If I wander into a cave in the first five minutes that has some lvl99 troll that one hits me, fine. If I can figure out a way to kill him anyway, even better. Don’t put up artificial barriers
Captain Toad
Banned
But why can't the entire game? If I level up enough, early areas should be cakewalks on the normal difficulty. But, I should also be able to scale the enemies higher and increase rewards.
At least, that's how I prefer these types of RPGs. But, seeing enemies level up every time I level up, kind of makes everything feel pointless.
raduque
Member
No, you missed my point. The interactivity of those types of games is FAR HIGHER than you get from a movie. Movies are passive experiences, games are not.
ShadyAcshuns
Member
Level scaling is always trash.
Schmendrick
Member
The curve is your gear. If your power curve is flat your gear or your build sucks.
It`s a looter, how come people expect levels to do anything but unlock better gear......
RoboFu
One of the green rats
I get that part but it’s still Stupid. Those little nothing enemies shouldn’t ever be level 40. It’s just bad design.
Calverz
Member
Right there with you op. It feels like the fun hs been sucked right out of Diablo if I’m honest. You never have those moments where you are destroying waves of enemies. It’s a shame because there are aspects of the game I really like.
SidViscous
Member
I like the sense of progression of being able to go back to earlier areas and be godlike and overpowered for a bit, Diablo 4 literally just feels like your on a treadmill due to shitty level scaling, the Edge 7/10 was on the mark.