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Opinion Analysis Hardware Let's Design The 10th-Gen Consoles, Part 1: SONY PLAYSTATION 6, PART 2

With recent advancements in ARM, do you think 10th-gen consoles will shift to ARM w/x86 translation?

  • Yes, both Sony and Microsoft

    Votes: 12 46.2%
  • Yes, but only Sony

    Votes: 3 11.5%
  • Yes, but only Microsoft

    Votes: 2 7.7%
  • No, both Sony and Microsoft

    Votes: 8 30.8%
  • No, but only Sony

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, but only Microsoft

    Votes: 1 3.8%

  • Total voters
    26
  • Poll closed .
Aug 28, 2019
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(If you're interested, please give PS6 Part 1 a read).

Continuing from the 1st part on PS6 speculation, since the GPU was covered, this time I'm gonna wrap everything up with the CPU, memory, storage, audio, business strategy, and pricing, cross-posting from the post on B3D. I tried keeping things trimmed down this time since, well, that has been a recurring thing that's needed to be focused on. But still gonna keep everything as tight as before.





[PLAYSTATION 6]

[CPU]
[FEATURES]
>Two CPU chiplet blocks; technically Zen can be called a chiplet, but what would be going on here is literally more like two CPU dies closely integrated together to function like a single CPU block.​
>The two CPU chiplets are the "High Power" and "Low Power" blocks.​
>"High Power" block and "Low Power" blocks have the same core and thread counts: 8 cores, 16 threads. However, the "High Power" block has more on-chip cache and some processor feature support not present in the Low Power block .​
>"Low Power" block can be clocked a bit higher than the "High Power" block for asynchronous CPU-bound workloads.​
>"High Power" and "Low Power" blocks are managed through a shared scheduler.​
>The scheduler enforces Heterogeneous Multi-Processing (HMP).​
>Dynamic prioritization and organization of workloads with dual-block design means one or the other blocks can be powered down to save on power consumption when not required for work.​
>Shared high-speed, low-latency L4$.​
>ARCHITECTURE: ZEN_ARM Nth-Generation​
>1x 8C/16T "High-Power CPU" block, 4.2 GHz​
>1x 8C/16T "Low-Power CPU" block, 5 GHz​
[CACHES]
>L1$: 128 KB (per core, HP block), 64 Kb (per core, LP block) 1.536 MB (total)​
>L2$: 512 KB (per core, HP block),256 KB (per core, LP block), 6.144 MB (total)​
>L3$: 8 MB (HP block), 8 MB (LP block), 16 MB (total)​
>L4$: 8 MB (shared)​
>>TOTAL: 31.68 MB​

[MEMORY]
>GDDR-based (GDDR7).​
>2nd or 3rd generation GDDR7 with higher bandwidths (36 Gbps).​
>144 GB/s module bandwidths.​
>4 GB module densities.​
>256-bit memory bus (8 modules).​
>1.152 TB/s system memory bandwidth.​
>Additional 2 GB of LPDDR5 present for OS-related tasks and SSD I/O related temp caching, 51.2 GB/s bandwidth.​

[STORAGE]
>NAND-based. NAND technology will continue to improve on latency and bandwidth, and reduce in price per GB. Persistent memory will not become a suitable alternative for storage options but can likely see use as off-chip cache in smaller MB or low GB capacities.​
>More standardized NVMe-based internal drive that should allow for much easier expandability and replaceability; in turn system OS files are stored on separate block of NAND embedded on the system board, intended for OS file changes and updates/backup states, security files etc. Saves on required space of storage drive for formatting and hosting reserve space for OS features.​
>PCIe 5.0 interconnect; some features from PCIe 6.0, such as FEC (forward error correction) support, will be enforced through custom implementation at hardware level by Sony.​
>8x PCIe 5.0 lanes, for up to 32 GB/s raw bandwidths.​
>16x 1-channel, 256 GB NAND modules, for 4 TB storage and 16-channel interface.​
>Internal FMC (Flash Memory Controller) for the storage, paired with internal FMC in the PS6 for data comms.​
>Enforced implementation of CCX cache coherence with dedicated hardware to handle overhead, on both FMCs.​
>Advanced decompression system as evolution of PS5s, with improved maximized compression ratio of 5.5:1.​
>Compressed bandwidth of 176 GB/s (8x increase over PS5's 22 GB/s peak, and same bandwidth as PS4's GDDR5 memory).​
>PS5 internal flash memory controller can support.​
>Unlike PS5, internal SSD and any expansion SSD share the same slot; transfer of data from internal default SSD to an expansion external SSD will require an intermediary external SSD or HDD to act as a middleman.​

[AUDIO]
>Tempest Engine Audio Next (TEAN).​
>Repurposed dual CU unit from PS6 GPU.​
>Clock rate set lower than GPU, at around 1.849 GHz (55% of base GPU clock rate).​
>~946.8 GFLOPs of theoretical performance capability.​
>Expanded programmability options compared to PS5's Tempest Engine.​
>Complementary general-purpose DSP for additional lower-performance audio tasks present, integrated into TEAN.​

[PLAYSTATION LITE AND PLAYSTATION FOLD 2]
>Mid-tier and entry next-generation PlayStation products to compliment PS6 (high-end).​
>PlayStation Lite is a refresh/replacement for the PS5 Enhanced and PS5; PlayStation Fold 2 is a replacement for the PS4 Pro and PS4.​
>Both PS Lite and PS Fold allow fluid streaming of PS6 games; PS Fold 2 allows fluid streaming of PS5 & PS5 Enhanced games.​
>Small console form-factor for PS Lite; portable form-factor for PS Fold 2.​
>Both systems leverage the "Low Power" CPU block from the PS6, and one of the two GPU chiplets.​
>"Low Power" CPU block in both is clocked lower to match CPU clocks of systems they replace (but can likely provide slightly more).​
>GPU chiplets, similarly, are clocked lower to match the GPU clocks of systems they replace (but can likely provide slightly more).​
>PS Lite features 8x 2 GB GDDR7 modules at rates of 24 Gbps (96 GB/s), for 16 GB @ 768 GB/s.​
>PS Fold 2 features 8x 1 GB GDDR7 modules at rates of 20 Gbps (80 GB/s), for 8 GB @ 640 GB/s.​
>PS Lite features 2 TB of storage, as 2x PCIe 5.0 lanes, for 8 GB/s raw bandwidth. 4x 2-channel 2 GB/s NAND modules. Same hardware setup for FMCs/decompression as PS6, 5.5:1 compression ratio, CCX-enforced cache coherence & FEC support. Compressed bandwidth: 44 GB/s.​
>PS Fold 2 features 1 TB of storage, as 1x PCIe 5.0 lane, for 4 GB/s raw bandwidth. 2x 2-channel 2 GB/s NAND modules. Same hardware setup for FMCs/decompression as PS6, 5.5:1 compression ratio, CCX-enforced cache coherence & FEC support. Compressed bandwidth: 22 GB/s.​
>Higher-quality OLED screen design for PS Fold 2 with slightly larger size (8" vs. 7").​
>Non-simultaneous (within 6-12 months) release with PS6.​

[BUSINESS STRATEGY]
>Large expansion of game streaming paired with media content streaming.​
>Singular integration of PlayStation, Sony film/television/music/anime content in all-encompassing PlayStation Entertainment streaming platform.​
>Same-day VOD streaming of Sony Pictures films with theatrical releases.​
>PlayStation Entertainment will NOT have day-and-date for all 1P PlayStation titles. However, GaaS-focused online multiplayer 1P PlayStation titles WILL be day-and-date with the service.​
>Enhanced interactive integration of media content with 1P and select 3P PlayStation games content for users on PS6, PS Lite and PS Fold 2, leveraging built-in hardware of those devices. Think things like seamless streaming of Sony-owned media (music, films, anime etc.) content in the open world of a 10th-gen Spider-Man or PS6 version of 10th-gen GTA7. Bringing back and extending some of the potential of PS Home (PS3) but much more robust than that managed to go, and tailored more to specific games.​
>Subscription tiers for PlayStation Entertainment depending on what type of content packages users want.​
>Robust cross-media possibilities for non-gaming content that can leverage PS hardware. For example, a theatrical film with a VR mode for users watching on PS6 with a PSVR-compatible headset, and interactive segments within the film that can leverage next-gen Dualsense inputs.​

[PRICE]
>PS6: $499.99​
>PS Lite: $349.99​
>PS Fold 2: $249.99​
And now with PS6 out of the way, I can get on with my Microsoft 10th-gen predictions....sometime soon hopefully. It's basically all written up but I'm trying to shorten this stuff to make it more brief. Got some really interesting ideas for what Microsoft could try doing 10th-gen.

Maybe I can do the Microsoft one as a single thread, will see. But as usual, I'm interested to hear what your thoughts are on these aspects of Sony's 10th-gen console gaming ambitions. Agree or disagree? What things do you see happening vs. not happening? Or maybe you've got your own ideas insofar as what CPU, audio, memory etc. technologies they could go for? Let's see what everyone's thinking!
 
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That storage solution tho. That's basically 4 terabytes of ps4 gddr5 memory.

Yeah, but it might be doable within six years from now. Higher bandwidth NAND + PCIe 5.0 + improved compression algorithms/technologies + lower NAND latency and that's probably a target I can see Sony/Cerny wanting to hit. It'd help a lot with large asset streaming and processing of data (within literally a span of a small number of frame time) for more complex games to come.

Think of it this way: they already increased storage speed by 100x from PS4 to PS5. Increasing decompression capability by 8x from PS5 to PS6 (and raw bandwidth by little under 6x), should be pretty doable even if diminishing returns is a thing. If random access speeds and latency can improve considerably between generations, then that'd be even better and make the idea of it being "virtually" 4 TB of PS5 GDDR5 more of a reality.



It's an SSD with an HDMI output.

I see what you did there ;)
 
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Kumomeme

Member
Mar 20, 2017
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probably too earlier to make this kind of speculation as we dont know what kind of tech trend will be in next 5-6 years, for example earlier of last gen, even middle gen, ray tracing is like foreign word. what kind of silicon that popular, it is still zen on new stuff? will be arm or still x86 going strong? 8c16t still preferable? fanless heat sink gonna be popular? etc and we dont know yet what kind of bottleneck this gen that would lead to next gen console design for example last gen we have weaker, jaguar cpu. this gen just started. i say at least middle of generation probably we can see better picture of industry trend and the possibilities it gonna have for next gen console.
 
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Thanati

Member
Oct 21, 2011
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6 or so years away. I actually wonder if there will be consoles or will they both adopt cloud gaming.
 

Jethalal

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Dec 19, 2020
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Call my taste tacky but I liked the PS5 devkit :messenger_winking_tongue: ,specially considering the V symbol it was making. I'd like it if they went with different designs than usual, differentiates it from the crowd.
 
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Remember when the first rumors if the scarlet had a 1tb nvme and everyone dismissed it.


OP you gotta think bigger.

Are we talking 8 TB big here :p ?

I have yet to see hyperthreading like features on ARM--they only do "real" cores as far as I know, probably because they're so small and efficient to begin with.
i don't know about the rest, this looks like some wish list of buzz words.

Good point, but I guess I should've said SMT as hyperthreading is a term exclusive to Intel's implementation of the concept. For SMT, ARM actually have at least one CPU with SMT, it released around two years ago. Anandtech covers it here.

You're right in the sense that if one can have more physical cores vs. fewer cores with hyperthreading/SMT then they'd go with more physical cores. But the consoles will probably want to have SMT so that they can provide best compatibility with the 9th-gen systems, both of which also have SMT.

And nah, we don't do buzzwords around here. If there's any terms you're iffy about just ask and I can explain them (would've done it in the OP but I'm trying to condense the word count in these posts).

probably too earlier to make this kind of speculation as we dont know what kind of tech trend will be in next 5-6 years, for example earlier of last gen, even middle gen, ray tracing is like foreign word. what kind of silicon that popular, it is still zen on new stuff? will be arm or still x86 going strong? 8c16t still preferable? fanless heat sink gonna be popular? etc and we dont know yet what kind of bottleneck this gen that would lead to next gen console design for example last gen we have weaker, jaguar cpu. this gen just started. i say at least middle of generation probably we can see better picture of industry trend and the possibilities it gonna have for next gen console.

This is true, but I think there are some things we actually can predict for now. For example, on-die hardware acceleration for tasks like AI machine learning, RT, image resolution scaling, etc. More on-chip memory (cache) to improve data locality. Faster decompression bandwidths to increase streaming of complex data assets into memory for more visually immersive worlds (the current systems are a good start but barely scratch the surface of what advanced SSD and compression/decompression tech can really provide here), etc.

There are other trends too that we can kind of comfortably say will continue to happen. NAND prices will likely continue to drop per GB, memory specs like GDDR7 are already in planning and pre-production phase. PCIe 5.0 controllers are already being made (even PCIe 6.0 will be ready well before the middle of the decade); in terms of problems facing PS5 and Series X there's actually one already here: storage space. It's a common complaint for the next-gen systems, and formatting for OS functionality plays into it. So, we can already expect larger storage drives and probably some NAND off the SSD reserved for OS file updates.

Of course, all of this is just prediction and speculation. I won't be surprised if some of it is wrong, but I'm kind of bullish and would be surprised if I'm completely off-base. If so, I'd hope it's for even better stuff that Sony and Microsoft can cook up, but making this speculation's not even about being right or wrong, it's just really damn fun.

Water cooled:

Intel Pentium Pro (dedicated dual core with 4 threads @ 100MHz)
AMD HD 8490 (512MB dedicated Ram)
64MB Ram (Boost clock to 225MHz)
256MB HDD

...and that's for the multifunctional LED lit digital PS6 logo on the box

Oh this is fancy.
 

SplunkyMunkey

Member
Mar 22, 2020
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I think ps6 and the next xbox is going to arm with its first Dual GPU design personally series x is going to aim for power again while ps6 is going to be like ps5 less bottlenecks. But sony will implement say RDNA 5 features while the card will be RDNA 3 or 4 same as with boost frequency upto 2.8ghz speed

Cpu design i suspect next xbox is going for the ARM cpu while ps6 will have a Zen 3/4 CPU both could possibly reach 4ghz speed ps6 will downclock to 3.6 or 3.7 to reach the gpu speed when needed

The ram will probaby be 20gig of gddr 7 speed 512 for xbox and 448 could be 480 bus speed for ps6

Custom SSD double the speed for ps6 from 5.5 to 9.5 using and 4.8 for xbox

And both carry 3d audio ps6 using custom zen 2 cores instead of spu
 

LordOfChaos

Member
Mar 31, 2014
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I'm not that convinced looking at Microsoft's binary translation attempts, and Sony hasn't even tried. XBO BC for 360 games isn't complete, and nor is it technically translating at all, you pop in a disk and it pulls down the pre recompiled binary from the server. I think for at least one more generation we stay with x86 and likely the main game in town for an APU will still be AMD, though Intel is working on better and better GPUs too, and possibly increasingly desperate to be able to go for thin margin console deals.

The interesting thing for me to see will be if Sony's storage focus this gen is successful, where they go next. All of their patents and designs pointed to creating storage that was more deterministic in access speed, like RAM is. What else sits between them? Something like 3D XPoint perhaps, with access latencies that are closer to between RAM and NAND (still closer to NAND ofc)
 
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Are we talking 8 TB big here :p ?



Good point, but I guess I should've said SMT as hyperthreading is a term exclusive to Intel's implementation of the concept. For SMT, ARM actually have at least one CPU with SMT, it released around two years ago. Anandtech covers it here.

You're right in the sense that if one can have more physical cores vs. fewer cores with hyperthreading/SMT then they'd go with more physical cores. But the consoles will probably want to have SMT so that they can provide best compatibility with the 9th-gen systems, both of which also have SMT.

And nah, we don't do buzzwords around here. If there's any terms you're iffy about just ask and I can explain them (would've done it in the OP but I'm trying to condense the word count in these posts).



This is true, but I think there are some things we actually can predict for now. For example, on-die hardware acceleration for tasks like AI machine learning, RT, image resolution scaling, etc. More on-chip memory (cache) to improve data locality. Faster decompression bandwidths to increase streaming of complex data assets into memory for more visually immersive worlds (the current systems are a good start but barely scratch the surface of what advanced SSD and compression/decompression tech can really provide here), etc.

There are other trends too that we can kind of comfortably say will continue to happen. NAND prices will likely continue to drop per GB, memory specs like GDDR7 are already in planning and pre-production phase. PCIe 5.0 controllers are already being made (even PCIe 6.0 will be ready well before the middle of the decade); in terms of problems facing PS5 and Series X there's actually one already here: storage space. It's a common complaint for the next-gen systems, and formatting for OS functionality plays into it. So, we can already expect larger storage drives and probably some NAND off the SSD reserved for OS file updates.

Of course, all of this is just prediction and speculation. I won't be surprised if some of it is wrong, but I'm kind of bullish and would be surprised if I'm completely off-base. If so, I'd hope it's for even better stuff that Sony and Microsoft can cook up, but making this speculation's not even about being right or wrong, it's just really damn fun.



Oh this is fancy.
 
Aug 28, 2019
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I'm not that convinced looking at Microsoft's binary translation attempts, and Sony hasn't even tried. XBO BC for 360 games isn't complete, and nor is it technically translating at all, you pop in a disk and it pulls down the pre recompiled binary from the server. I think for at least one more generation we stay with x86 and likely the main game in town for an APU will still be AMD, though Intel is working on better and better GPUs too, and possibly increasingly desperate to be able to go for thin margin console deals.

The interesting thing for me to see will be if Sony's storage focus this gen is successful, where they go next. All of their patents and designs pointed to creating storage that was more deterministic in access speed, like RAM is. What else sits between them? Something like 3D XPoint perhaps, with access latencies that are closer to between RAM and NAND (still closer to NAND ofc)
That is a true aspect of how MS's BC works, can't deny it. If it works it works, but they have a few years for R&D to make it even better.

I think 10th-gen Sony will continue with NAND, but we'll see a cross-point of certain NVRAM benefits, like lower latencies, naturally come forth in newer-generation NAND devices. Combine that with the better value of capacity-per-cent you get with NAND over NVRAM like Optane (plus the fact that high-grade SSDs will begin to outperform NVRAM devices like storage-based Optane and even Micron's X100 SSDs in terms of sheer bandwidth, if they haven't already) and it's a no-brainer.

Sony's attempts at utilizing NAND more like RAM, I'd say, they're on a very good start. Having higher prioritization tiers along with more channels than usual helps a lot in both cases, and those will be areas they decide to focus on even more with 10th-gen as well as natural increase in raw bandwidth. For raw bandwidth I think they'll want to hit around where the PS5's top compressed bandwidth currently sits at, around 22 GB/s. There are other performance ratios I've been calculating that I think would lead Sony to wanting to at least maintain those performance ratios if not improve them by certain amounts for 10th-gen, too.

One thing I underestimated though, and this goes for Microsoft as well, is the role of VR and AR for 10th-gen. I think that's when such tech will finally be mainstream, so I think both systems in 10th-gen will make a stronger push for VR/AR support out of the box. A lot of this does depend on future Wifi 6 and Wifi 7 advancements, though. I'm actually revising a lot of my speculations right now for something more comprehensive, gonna try thinking more big-picture ;)