-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Lawsuit Claims Race Bias at Wet Seal Retail Chain
- Thread starter Dram
- Start date
- Status
By creating a well educated populace that understands that the myelin in someone's skin and someone's bone structure and skin texture have nothing to do with someone's character and intelligence. Part of that begins with equal education. This can also be combated with laws that punish racism like in the OP. This still leaves the immediate problem of more subtle racism, however I think the education part will help with that over time. Racism is a serious problem, but thinking of quick fixes like racist programs are not the solution. Just wondering, how would you combat racism in a non racist way? Or do you think racism in the work place requires racist programs to stop it?
Most of the scholarships I assume you're arguing against are private ones.
:|
I guess we can start here. Melanin.
Melanin, myelin is in nerves.
And you think we don't do this already?
Devolution
Member
It's funny how you think measures to ensure that minorities also get a fair shake are racist.
I'm not sure how it is now but I know that many public schools used to look to make race quotas in thier student acceptance. However not sure if that's still how it is. However even if it's private does that mean they can be racist? I'm pretty sure that was cleared up when privately run businesses couldn't refuse service to people based on race. As far as I understand, it's against the law.
But those measures could, in theory, inconvenience a privileged majority! That means they're MAXIMUM RACIST have to be eliminated.
I never said that. If I did quote me and I'll clear up the misunderstanding because I do not believe that. And do you disagree with my suggestions of combating racism in a non racist way? And from your hostility I would guess ÿøü think I'm a racist, I can assure you I'm not.
Devolution
Member
Those minorities are stealing my shit. Who cares if I haven't actually earned it, in some other place and time I'd have that down pat. Oh wait. Yeah. That's kind of the point.
Explain to me how you'd really integrate the workplace without the help of AA. Go on. You keep mentioning education as if that's the end all be all of ceasing discrimination. You know what actually assists in confronting and dismantling discrimination? Forcing people to take a longer look at their prejudices in hiring standards. Double blind resume reviews. And in the case of musicians, hiding their gender.
People disagree with your suggestion that affirmative action is racist.
Check some shit out by Tim Wise, he's a white dude who examines racism from his perspective, and I feel it might be easier for you to relate to/not get offended by:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2mjvFNOwmc
He goes pretty in depth
I never said they would "inconvenience a privileged majority". I just morally disagree with many of affirmative actions programs. I don't think the people who are implementing them are racist, just misguided. If you want to argue whether affirmative action is racist or not is one thing, but comments like these just muddle the conversation.
Devolution
Member
Again. Tell us your salve other than education because education doesn't dismantle institutionalized racism as well as you think it does.
blame space
Banned
the "conversation"
This is what you're implying every time you refer to affirmative action as racist policy. You are suggesting that measures that could help minorities to make up for unfair societal disadvantages are somehow just as bad as the injustice they're intended to correct, but you haven't even made a solid argument as to why this is true.
Surely people won't do something that's wrong if they know why it's wrong.
Right?
Right?
Devolution
Member
If we just tell the kids in the school that non-white people are equal then by god they'll act right!
I did explain how I would, by keeping laws that criminalize racial discrimination in the work force. If its open this will stop it, but like I said, hidden racism is harder to stop. I think education is the best way to do so. I'm on my phone so I'm slow to do my research, but what I disagree with is your insulation that racism can't be combated with non racist programs. Education wouldn't completely end discrimination but it would go a long way, the problem is its gradual. But with such a complex issue as racism the idea of ending it completely within a few years is naive. Also can't watch the video right now :/ on a limited data and on phone. I will bookmark and watch tomorrow.
There is nothing racist about affirmative action programs.
And you cannot simultaneously argue that you care about creating social and economic racial equality while at the same time refusing to engage in one of the only ways of artificially ameliorating the effects of long-term racism, structural and institutional racism, and interpersonal prejudice and have anyone believe that you are sincere in your belief in the importance of achieving social and economic racial equality.
Except affirmative action isn't racist. I really think that's the part you're not understanding.
Affirmative action exists for the greater good of society. Yes, some people will personally lose from it, and some people will personally benefit from it, but that's true for almost every type of policy whose goal is improving society overall.
I actually don't think they are equally bad. I just believe the injustices done to many minorities can be corrected with non-racist programs.
Devolution
Member
Hidden racism/sexism is the exact kind of stuff AA targets because it forces people to hire outside of their particular socio economic class and use that as a marker for favoritism among those they are hiring. I don't think you really understand what AA is, how it works or what it entails. You think that it's just some random quota that needs filling when it's more complex than that. That's why blind auditions in music assist women because without them they'd be looked over only because of their gender.
But..we...it's...not...
I would agree that it's intent isn't racist. Which is to have all races have equal opportunity and to eliminate racial discrimination. However I think some of the programs under the broad banner of affirmative action are racists. Not all affirmative action is racist. Would you disagree? For example, a scholarship rewarded to someone based on race. Is that racist?
Devolution
Member
Scholarships is all you got, really? Private entities can put any and as many restrictions on those as they want. Next.
Once again, scholarships that are given to students of a certain race or creed are privately funded, meaning they can have whatever requirements they want. It has nothing to do with affirmative action.
Are you livid over preferential legacy enrollment?
Yes I support affirmative action, but only the non racist programs. I don't support the racist programs that are considered affirmative action.
Devolution
Member
Hey. Don't you let your facts get in the way of my arguments.
How long are we going to keep up this charade? Either tell us which are actually racist, guess what scholarships don't qualify, or admit you're in over your head.
What? Just because it is private doesn't mean they can be racist.
Hey now, I'm not the one supporting racist programs that fall under affirmative action's banner.
NAACP is racist.
Devolution
Member
Please, do elaborate.
The point was that they are not "affirmative action programs" as such. Scholarship programs are a separate thing, though scholarship programs can be done with similar goals in mind as affirmative action programs.
And no, a scholarship that discriminates on the basis of race because of a mission of improving minority representation in higher education would not be racist.
No, scholarships are just the simplest example I can use. I'm on my phone so I'm limited as to how fast I can respond and since I'm responding to several people it's even more difficult. I welcome anyone to pm me if they would like to discuss this more extensively and in depth another time.
The intent is to promote greater diversity on the campus or workplace, and give disadvantaged demographics an opportunity to transcend their disadvantaged backgrounds and slowly lift their demographic along with them so that they don't need programs like affirmative action to succeed.
I don't get what you're asking with the second part. No I don't believe scholarships for specific minorities are racist, as they seek to achieve what I said in the first paragraph
If they say blonde hair and blue eyes can they still be taken to court? Obviously they mean white people, but if they phrase it that way doe it get them an out since the majority of white people don't have those features?
Devolution
Member
There's such a wealth of scholarships that are never undertaken by people, to argue that they're racist is hilarious.
Probably since it's still a discriminatory practice.
Probably since it's still a discriminatory practice.
The point he was making was that preferential legacy programs tend to overwhelmingly benefit white upper class people whose families are more likely to have had people go to college, and that if you are upset by scholarship programs benefiting minorities, you should be even more upset by those programs.
I tried to quote the wiki definition but had some trouble. Basically for AA it defined it as policies. I would say private scholarships that are given away are wide spread enough to be considered a non official national policy. I agree that "improving minority representation in higher education [is] not racist", but descrimating based on race is. Just because you are trying to help a race doesn't mean you cant be racist towards them or other races.
Devolution
Member
This kind of argument legitimately reeks of ignoring the various programs or institutionalized racism/general advantages that still haven't evaporated that AA programs seek to counter balance.
1st: http://tinyurl.com/2azwt8
And 2nd: You know how to get a minority scholarship as a white man?
GO TO A SCHOOL WHERE WHITE PEOPLE AREN'T THE MAJORITY.
It's as simple as that.
And 2nd: You know how to get a minority scholarship as a white man?
GO TO A SCHOOL WHERE WHITE PEOPLE AREN'T THE MAJORITY.
It's as simple as that.
lol I can use false logic too. "other things aren't racist so it can't be racist"
With AA in place for several decades why hasn't institutionalized racism disappeared? And I understand the purpose of AA and I agree with its goals, just not how some of it is implemented.
Edit: double post and I'm a noob so i don't know how to fix this on my phone :/
Racism is systemic or institutionalized and creates a racial hierarchy through its effects. Those scholarship programs are attempts at ameliorating the effects of those institutional and systemic effects, and are inherently anti-racist.
If you want to use a word to describe what they are doing, you could call them discriminatory, but they need to be discriminatory in order to achieve their mission and "discriminatory" is not the same as "racist."
By the way (sorry for quoting a post earlier in the thread), but quotas aren't legal in the US (since 1978). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action#Quotas
In University of California vs Bakke, the Supreme Court ruled that quotas are unconstitutional but affirmative action is legal and constitutional.
So you don't have to worry about quotas.
Because the goal of AA is not to eliminate institutionalized racism. It's to combat its effects so that the people who actually have to survive in a system that is, at its core, against them can, you know, make a living.
But no! That's stupid! Let those people suffer. I'm sure if we just educate the next generation (like we have been for decades) institutionalized racism will disappear into the wind and, while those kids who had to grow up in families who couldn't get anywhere without clawing and fighting every day of their lives, won't have the advantages the kids who didn't have to grow up in that environment just by virtue of the color of their skin, I'm sure they'll be fine.
sorry, I'll phrase it with a different question so my point is more clear. Would you consider something racist if it discrimates based on race, whether it be for the benefit or disadvantage of that race.
Devolution
Member
As mumei posted it's discriminatory with a purpose but not racist. Racism is the issue that necessitates AA in the first place.
- Status