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Lawsuit Claims Race Bias at Wet Seal Retail Chain

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pigeon

Banned
With AA in place for several decades why hasn't institutionalized racism disappeared?

It's amazing that you could make this argument while simultaneously claiming that the solution to racism is better education about how racism isn't a good idea. We've been working on that one for at least three hundred years, and it's still looking it's going to take another couple weeks, so it's kind of silly to argue that affirmative action is a failure if it doesn't solve the problem permanently in a few decades.

sorry, I'll phrase it with a different question so my point is more clear. Would you consider something racist if it discrimates based on race, whether it be for the benefit or disadvantage of that race.

Not necessarily. Depends on context.
 

Bolshevik

Banned
Racism is systemic or institutionalized and creates a racial hierarchy through its effects. Those scholarship programs are attempts at ameliorating the effects of those institutional and systemic effects, and are inherently anti-racist.

If you want to use a word to describe what they are doing, you could call them discriminatory, but they need to be discriminatory in order to achieve their mission and "discriminatory" is not the same as "racist."
So you would agree that scholarships that relate to race often are part of affirmative action? And I think I might be coming off as saying " if it deals with race it's racists" What I mean is that it's one thing to recognize a race is under privileged and descrimated against and want to create equality. It's another thing to then react with policies designed that create more racism by giving a race of people something only because of thier race. I think AA should focus on creating programs that create equal education and respect/rights for all races, gender, sexual orientation, ect... And to do so in non racist manners.
 

joeposh

Member
Had a friend who was offered a management position at Abercrombe but quit after her DM advised her against hiring "ethnic people and overweight people". This was like a decade ago.

Abercrombie is horrible. It's pretty widely acknowledged that their hiring practices are entirely superficial. My first serious girlfriend didn't even apply to work there -- they just came up to her while she was hanging out at the mall food court and offered her a job. No interview, no references, not even a formal application. From what I hear that's pretty common place with them (or at least was at the time).
 

Mumei

Member
So you would agree that scholarships that relate to race often are part of affirmative action?

I do not think of them as "affirmative action" programs. I think of them as sharing similar goals.

And I think I might be coming off as saying " if it deals with race it's racists" What I mean is that it's one thing to recognize a race is under privileged and descrimated against and want to create equality. It's another thing to then react with policies designed that create more racism by giving a race of people something only because of thier race. I think AA should focus on creating programs that create equal education and respect/rights for all races, gender, sexual orientation, ect... And to do so in non racist manners.

This is where you are wrong. It is not "another thing"; it is "the natural consequence of the recognition that a race is underprivileged and discriminated against." And as I have explained, while they might be discriminatory, they are not racist.
 

Bolshevik

Banned
It's amazing that you could make this argument while simultaneously claiming that the solution to racism is better education about how racism isn't a good idea. We've been working on that one for at least three hundred years, and it's still looking it's going to take another couple weeks, so it's kind of silly to argue that affirmative action is a failure if it doesn't solve the problem permanently in a few decades.



Not necessarily. Depends on context.
I was using her argument on herself to make a point, however should have realized that other people would think I was making that argument. To clarify, Im not saying AA is a failure because it hasn't created quick results. I don't think there is any solution to racism that will create quick results. I think AA is complex and that some of its programs although have positive benefits also are morally corrupt for encouraging more institutionalized racism.
Also, how would you define racism then? In your words.
 
I was using her argument on herself to make a point, however should have realized that other people would think I was making that argument. To clarify, Im not saying AA is a failure because it hasn't created quick results. I don't think there is any solution to racism that will create quick results. I think AA is complex and that some of its programs although have positive benefits also are morally corrupt for encouraging more institutionalized racism.
Also, how would you define racism then? In your words.

And yet you still haven't provided so called better ways to combat institutionalized racism.
 

Bolshevik

Banned
Is it discriminating for the sake of evening out other discriminatory practices? Yes? Then it isn't racist.

Once again: http://tinyurl.com/2azwt8
Ug, descrimating to end the consequences of past descrimation just feels wrong. Even though it might accomplish equality i feel that equality can be reached without descrimation. Also that comic makes it out like people currently alive were the ones who took advantage of others. I would draw it as a white person on the ledge with both a black person and a white person below him. He then helps both of them up to his level at the same time. Regardless of race.
 

Bolshevik

Banned
And yet you still haven't provided so called better ways to combat institutionalized racism.
I'm not sure how many times I have to explain this to ÿøü but I'm a patient person so...as I said earlier I think making racial discrimation illegal in work and education would go a long way. Along with equal education. It will be a gradual progress because it is a complex issue, to expect it to be fixed within a year is naive and ignorant to human nature. Society takes time to change.
 

SapientWolf

Trucker Sexologist
I tried to quote the wiki definition but had some trouble. Basically for AA it defined it as policies. I would say private scholarships that are given away are wide spread enough to be considered a non official national policy. I agree that "improving minority representation in higher education [is] not racist", but descrimating based on race is. Just because you are trying to help a race doesn't mean you cant be racist towards them or other races.
If we're using the term racist to refer to any policy or action that recognizes race then you are correct in saying that it is racist. But these policies are not created or carried out in a vacuum. In the full context of the society this policy is utilized in, I don't think it creates a strong advantage or disadvantage to any particular race. Affirmative action alone, as it stands, does not come close to mitigating the effects of centuries of institutionalized discrimination. Which is the same social context where a manager was told to fire blacks because they tarnish a store's brand image.

It's going to be difficult to achieve socio-economic equity in America if the groups being targeted for discrimination cannot also be targeted for assistance.
 

pigeon

Banned
I think AA is complex and that some of its programs although have positive benefits also are morally corrupt for encouraging more institutionalized racism.

Why is discrimination based on an arbitrary characteristic such as skin color intrinsically morally wrong? Serious question, because I definitely don't agree with your principle here, and I'm a pretty absolute moralist.

Also, how would you define racism then? In your words.

I define racism as discrimination based on arbitrary characteristics such as skin color that forms part of an overarching societal structure of oppression.

I'm not sure how many times I have to explain this to you but I'm a patient person so...as I said earlier I think making racial discrimation illegal in work and education would go a long way. Along with equal education. It will be a gradual progress because it is a complex issue, to expect it to be fixed within a year is naive and ignorant to human nature. Society takes time to change.

It IS illegal. Except for affirmative action, so what you're really saying is, the reason there's racism today is because of affirmative action and if we just hadn't done that everything would be way better. But not that much better because change is a long process and we just need to be patient. Uh-huh.

Dr. Martin Luther King said:
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

Emphasis mine.
 
Ug, descrimating to end the consequences of past descrimation just feels wrong. Even though it might accomplish equality i feel that equality can be reached without descrimation. Also that comic makes it out like people currently alive were the ones who took advantage of others. I would draw it as a white person on the ledge with both a black person and a white person below him. He then helps both of them up to his level at the same time. Regardless of race.

If you're a white person in America today you still retain privileges minorities do not. The fact that such a statement is still under so much scrutiny or even debated as if it were a false assumption means we are still way the hell away from whatever state we need to be in order to say that we're past needing AA. If people were as intuitive as you'd like us to believe when it comes to their own prejudice, it would be easy to admit this shit out loud and deal with it on a personal level. As it stands, minorities, gays, and women are still undergoing unfair and preferential hiring practices that adversely affect them whether by the name on the resume or visual cues that keeps them from either being hired, paid the same wages or climbing up the corporate ladder.

Once again you fail to suggest programs other than AA related ones that would go out of their way to counter balance the adverse affects of sexism, racism and sexual preference when it comes to hiring the proper applicants for the job.


I'm not sure how many times I have to explain this to ÿøü but I'm a patient person so...as I said earlier I think making racial discrimation illegal in work and education would go a long way. Along with equal education. It will be a gradual progress because it is a complex issue, to expect it to be fixed within a year is naive and ignorant to human nature. Society takes time to change.

How would you prove other than by obvious and overt racism that preferential hiring practices were at play?
 

Bolshevik

Banned
Why is discrimination based on an arbitrary characteristic such as skin color intrinsically morally wrong? Serious question, because I definitely don't agree with your principle here, and I'm a pretty absolute moralist.



I define racism as discrimination based on arbitrary characteristics such as skin color that forms part of an overarching societal structure of oppression.



It IS illegal. Except for affirmative action, so what you're really saying is, the reason there's racism today is because of affirmative action and if we just hadn't done that everything would be way better. But not that much better because change is a long process and we just need to be patient. Uh-huh.



Emphasis mine.
It's wrong to descriminate against someone for a job or acceptance to a school when they should be accepting you/hiring you based on other characteristics. And I'm not saying there is racism today because of AA I'm just saying it can be racist and have seen AA programs that are. I'd say AA has actually helped reduce racism in the US. But does the means justify the ends? Possibly, but i personally think we can achieve the same results without racist AA pRograms. It's hard to tell for sure though since its not exactly measurable how much "good" AA does and how much "good" equal education would do towards eliminating racism.
 

Bolshevik

Banned
If you're a white person in America today you still retain privileges minorities do not. The fact that such a statement is still under so much scrutiny or even debated as if it were a false assumption means we are still way the hell away from whatever state we need to be in order to say that we're past needing AA. If people were as intuitive as you'd like us to believe when it comes to their own prejudice, it would be easy to admit this shit out loud and deal with it on a personal level. As it stands, minorities, gays, and women are still undergoing unfair and preferential hiring practices that adversely affect them whether by the name on the resume or visual cues that keeps them from either being hired, paid the same wages or climbing up the corporate ladder.

Once again you fail to suggest programs other than AA related ones that would go out of their way to counter balance the adverse affects of sexism, racism and sexual preference when it comes to hiring the proper applicants for the job.




How would you prove other than by obvious and overt racism that preferential hiring practices were at play?
Who is debating with you that whites are still privileged? I'm not...I disagree with you on how to go about creating equality. You're having a hard time understanding that. Besides AA may help to counter balance some "other" racism but it doesn't do much to end racism. Some old people will be racist no matter what, no amount of teaching or AA will end that, but education can keep people from developing that mind set that is so hard to eliminate.
 

pigeon

Banned
It's wrong to descriminate against someone for a job or acceptance to a school when they should be accepting you/hiring you based on other characteristics.

Why? You're presupposing some set of "correct" criteria on which you should judge applicants to, say, a school, but there is no such set of exactly right criteria (should a university admit the best performing applicants, or the people who will benefit most from going that university, or perhaps the people for whom attending university would be best for society as a whole?) and even if there were it would be impossible to accurately measure it. Arguably race is the exact criteria they should be taking into account -- in fact, that's literally the argument behind affirmative action.

This is why I always find this line of discussion fundamentally naive -- you have to be pretty disconnected from the reality of racism to think that it's some sort of facile moral commandment that drives people to act against racism. If people weren't being robbed of their liberty, their opportunities and their identities, I really wouldn't care what people THOUGHT.* We're not concerned with hypothetical moral problems, but with real and present societal ones.

* this is not to discount the effects of racist thought processes on actions, obviously, but merely to pose an impossible hypothetical in which society remains equal regardless of individual actions
 
Damnit, you waited on purpose.

Also, should I be surprised that a NeoGAF thread about an undeniably racist action has turned into a discussion on how racist affirmative action supposedly is?
I thought post 36 was implying the opposite. Since overweight people need to be in a gym, we must hire overweight people. It's similar to the "We must hire white people to attract white people" reasoning used by Wet Seal.

It's a sarcastic comment to show how dumb the higher-ups at Wet Seal are.
 
So a conversation about a business blatantly discriminating against minorities morphs into a conversation about how affirmative action is terrible...

I think that alone is a perfect example of white privilege.
 

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
How about a non racist alternative? I think it's sad how most public schools that are predominantly made up of minorities are often
underfunded and understaffed/worst teachers. I've seen this first hand. My room mate went to a mostly black/Hispanic high school when he moved from Mexico. He is a brilliant guy and graduated higher in his class than me, but received a worse education. I'm all for cutting defense budgets and sending that money to poorer school districts, so everyone in public education receive equal quality of teachers and education.

You do realize that defense budgets go to employing lots of engineers, computer scientists, security professionals, manufacturing jobs that usually cannot be outsourced to foreign nations, right? I definitely agree that poorer school districts need more money, and specifically more incentives for talented people to teach there... but instead of cutting one important part of the US economy to make room for another important part, why not just increase taxes on the wealthy back to Clinton levels?
 
By creating a well educated populace that understands that the myelin in someone's skin and someone's bone structure and skin texture have nothing to do with someone's character and intelligence. Part of that begins with equal education. This can also be combated with laws that punish racism like in the OP. This still leaves the immediate problem of more subtle racism, however I think the education part will help with that over time. Racism is a serious problem, but thinking of quick fixes like racist programs are not the solution. Just wondering, how would you combat racism in a non racist way? Or do you think racism in the work place requires racist programs to stop it?

You seem to be under the misconception that well educated racists don't exist.
 
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