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Joker ReviewS: Masterpiece Level

Sub_Level

wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Phoenix's acting was 10/10 no doubt but the movie was boring and very predictable. If it wasn't called JOKER nobody would give a f*ck about it here.

The script was weak and cliche, for sure. But the fact that it IS set in Gotham (and a 70s version at that) was hugely appealing. The setting was just as good as the acting in this film.

Before I saw this movie I was so glad it was standalone and separate from any sequel-building universe bullshit. But now? I want to see this world again. I want to see not just its Batman but its Scarecrow, Penguin, Poison Ivy, Two-Face, Clayface, Catwoman, Commissioner Gordon, and Dick Grayson.
 
S

Shodan09

Unconfirmed Member
I don't give a fuck about Batman or the Joker and still thought it was amazing. Which box do you need to put me in to?
 

jdforge

Banned
What do you guys think, is Joaquin Phoenix better Joker than Heath Ledger?

Controversial opinion here but I feel Heath gets some extra points for his Joker portrayal because of his death. Not to take anything away from his portrayal of Joker, but there is a sense of empathy attached to his role as Joker due to his sad and untimely death.

What I felt watching Phoenix was unlike anything I’ve ever experienced. He doesn’t just get my vote for best Joker, but also for one of the best performances I’ve ever seen.
 

sol_bad

Member
Heath Ledger is better as Joker because he is Joker.
Phoenix Joker is not really Joker, just a mentally ill man that needs help.
Phoenix is easily the better actor as a whole but as the character Joker, Ledger is the man.
 

JimiNutz

Banned
Ledger played the better Joker and Phoenix played the better lunatic.

Ledgers Joker was a lot more faithful to the comics. He was crazy but also had fun with the role and the the right mix if scary and funny. He also had a voice that sounded more like the Joker and nothing like his own.

Phoenix basically just played a lunatic with a clown fetish but he played a lunatic so well and had the better performance as an actor in my opinion. He absolutely nailed the scary/creepy part of the role but didn't incorporate any of the fun that comes with the character (although the movie script didn't really call for him to in fairness). I'd love to see more from him in the role but would like to see him develop the character a bit more now that he's made the transition to 'The Joker' so that it's a little more faithful to the comics.

Leto wasn't as bad as people say but had some terrible luck with the movie he was in and that OTT character design (neither of which were his fault). I actually liked his performance as Joker in the brief glimpses we got of him but the movie was terrible.
 

Mahadev

Member
Heath Ledger is better as Joker because he is Joker.
Phoenix Joker is not really Joker, just a mentally ill man that needs help.
Phoenix is easily the better actor as a whole but as the character Joker, Ledger is the man.


Light spoilers guys be warned.

I would argue for the biggest part of the movie Phoenix Joker wasn't Joker at all BUT at the last part which imo is the only good part he's definitely Joker, maybe even a more scary one because he actually seems unhinged and chaotic. The problem is that until he got there he was a passive crazy guy that things were just happening to him which is usually a pretty bad script decision for any character and especially a villain. But still I agree, I think I kind of prefer Ledger Joker, probably because of superficial reasons like his voice and mannerisms.
 
Light spoilers guys be warned.

I would argue for the biggest part of the movie Phoenix Joker wasn't Joker at all BUT at the last part which imo is the only good part he's definitely Joker, maybe even a more scary one because he actually seems unhinged and chaotic. The problem is that until he got there he was a passive crazy guy that things were just happening to him which is usually a pretty bad script decision for any character and especially a villain. But still I agree, I think I kind of prefer Ledger Joker, probably because of superficial reasons like his voice and mannerisms.

it was meant to be an origin story though. how could they do that if he was joker the whole time? they way they set it up and ended it, definitely seems like they are going for a series rather than a single movie
 

Mahadev

Member
it was meant to be an origin story though. how could they do that if he was joker the whole time? they way they set it up and ended it, definitely seems like they are going for a series rather than a single movie


I get it's an origin story but they could try to make it more interesting and the character more involved, plus I don't know know if it was the editing or the script but the first half felt very amateurish and not organic at all. I didn't need the Joker btw but at the very least I needed a character that was smart. I'm very conflicted about the movie because I loved how the added all the things that happened to him into the character but I didn't like how they presented these events including the
EXTREMELY obvious plot twist with the girlfriend. Honestly they could have scrapped that entire plotline and it wouldn't make a difference to the movie or the character.
 
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I really liked it. Contrasts marvel. It feels like marvel is very upfront about it being a super hero movie. Not very gritty or dark. Lacks a feeling of being grounded in reality.

Joker reminds me of unbreakable in it's approach to being a movie based around super heroes...villains. I may be misremembering unbreakable, it's been years. But maybe someone can back me up on stating that.

Feels like this moving is saying a lot. Mental health, senseless violence, society latching on to a moment, media's influence, class.

I think it being uncomfortable to watch in certain scenes is a testament to it trying to make statements. Even the humor was bleak.

Honestly a great a movie, but I feel like it being tied to comic books muddies some aspects but certainly helps others. Certainly allowed it to be in the spotlight though.

I don't know, just seen it. A lot of thoughts about it. I want to add, I love how he looks like a normal guy walking down the street, just doing his thing.
 
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rofif

Can’t Git Gud
The rotten tomatoes is a mystery to me. The critic and users score is 180 very often.
Last time critics loved Ad Astra and people disliked it (I liked it myself)
This time, Joker gets lower score from crtics than users... and it's a masterpiece if I ever saw one recently! holy shit!

Alleged critics rotten scores - wtf is going on... Critics should be people who are masters of movies and know this industry. Not a word on cinematography and what goes into a movie like this.
-"Phoenix is great, but the movie is a hack job." - a hack job? what would that even mean
-"Never evolves beyond scene after scene of painful slights, degradations, and worse - empty provocations." - Never evolves? degradation? cmon
-"We've been trolled." - yes. This is a review that counts into critics score
-"Joker isn't a work of genius, it's not radical, bold, nor right-wing propaganda. It's just a movie, and a bad one." - OHH it's a bad movie? ok, good to know !
-"The film isn't worth arguing over when it doesn't actually say anything at all." - why would a movie have to say something? Movie does not have to be a statement
-"It's a ripoff of the highest order, borrowing from greater filmmakers without the nuance or intelligence to make the entire enterprise worthwhile." - So a movie cannot be inspired by older movies? If new stuff couldn't be built on previous achievements, mankind would not exist
-"It is a deeply unpleasant movie. You'll walk away depressed, wondering if there's any good left in the world." - You would hate Schindler list

Rotten tomatoes needs to get their shit together.,...
 

Mihos

Gold Member
..... this movie was not for me. which means it must be pretty good.

I was bored, but at least the theater I went to had a bar.
 
Incredible movie, definitely not going to be everyone's cup of tea, with it's very dark and gritty tone but it worked far better than I ever thought it would.

For me the trailers didn't make it feel like a movie set in the DC universe (obviously not the existing DCEU) it just felt like a film about a guy who is a clown, who goes crazy and while that is still partly true about the film, by the end, it does start to feel like a film about the Joker we know from the DC universe.

Phoenix gives an Oscar worthy performance, he is outstanding here and I'd love to see more of him in this role, if they do another but if it is a one and done thing, it was still well worth watching.
 

MastAndo

Member
Terrific film with an outstanding performance by Phoenix for sure....but the one major issue I have with it is that I just don't see this guy having the potential to become any sort of criminal mastermind capable of outsmarting Bruce Wayne. To me, without that facet of his personality (i.e. the intelligence and the cunning), that's not really the Joker.
 

Blade2.0

Member
So, question about joker
did he kill the woman and daughter or just leave the apartment? That was open ended I think.
 
Just came back from it. I want to talk about it, but don't want to get hyperbolic. Which is tough, so please keep in mind I'm trying not to freak out like a complete fanboy. This movie is a masterpiece, the story telling is unparalleled when it comes to comic book movies. Phoenix is just godlike, it's impossible to compare him to Ledger because the takes on the character are just so different. You feel the desperation building on his body language alone. I'm torn between it and Parasite for my movie of the year, but both should be running for the Oscar. I just can't stop thinking about it.

So while I can't be rational about it, I need to get something out of my chest. Fuck Disney. Fuck Disney in the ass. Fuck the MCU. Fuck Marvel. Fuck the retarded I love you 3 thousand fucking manchildren normie fucks. Spider-Man sucked ass. The Boys is about you and you fucking know it and you don't want to go against Karl Urban. Fuck The Last Jedi while we're at it. Fuck the moronic looking Angelina Jolie sequel that nobody asked for. Logan was a warning sign, but Joker is just a huge impossible to ignore monument to how damaging cultural monopoly can be. Put some effort into it. Put some soul into it. Stop cannibalizing the industry with your gargantuan convoluted bullshit of sugary rated PG for Pretty Gullible nonsense. We deserve better. Gamers rise up! Ok I'm sorry, but seriously fuck Disney.
 

sol_bad

Member
.......
I don't even know what to say.
Apart from saying it's unfair to compare this film to other super hero films because ... well... this ain't a super hero film. This is a character study about a mentally unstable guy and the title just happens o be Joker. WB/DC and Marvel are still going to make their "shit tier" super hero films and they are still going to predominantly rule the box office along with Star Wars, Fast and Furious and Jurassic Park.

Pretty damn impressive that this is going to smash right past Logan and Deadpool though. Damn depressing thinking that it wouldn't do this well if it wasn't called Joker.
 

MastAndo

Member
So, question about joker
did he kill the woman and daughter or just leave the apartment? That was open ended I think.
My take is that he did not. At the point, he wasn't killing anyone who didn't "deserve it", so to speak. She hadn't exactly wronged him, and he liked her. She was friendly to him, or at least friendlier than others. He continues to show this level of compassion later on, when he spares the little guy after viciously killing Randall, as he had no reason to hurt him. That does go out the window later when he kills the therapist at the end, as she hadn't wronged him either...then again, at this point, he's full-blown Joker and the Joker doesn't need a reason to do anything.

All in all, it's hard to put rhyme or reason on events surrounding an unreliable narrator. We don't know if what we're seeing even actually happened or not.
 
Apart from saying it's unfair to compare this film to other super hero films because ... well... this ain't a super hero film. This is a character study about a mentally unstable guy and the title just happens o be Joker. WB/DC and Marvel are still going to make their "shit tier" super hero films and they are still going to predominantly rule the box office along with Star Wars, Fast and Furious and Jurassic Park.

That's a bad excuse to not demand better entertainment. Of course WB is going to release a lot of bad ones over the next few years, but at least they took a shot with Joker. They did something out of the ordinary and it worked, that's what we should be championing over a gargantuan industry that shits out the same fucking movie over and over and over again.

A lot of people watch Fast and Furious, but that didn't stop John Wick from being a thing. For comic book movies, the past 10 years have seen basically the same thing being done a bazillion times. The lone exception was Logan, but that movie still was somewhat tied up to the genre. Joker just breaks every shackle.
 

sol_bad

Member
That's a bad excuse to not demand better entertainment. Of course WB is going to release a lot of bad ones over the next few years, but at least they took a shot with Joker. They did something out of the ordinary and it worked, that's what we should be championing over a gargantuan industry that shits out the same fucking movie over and over and over again.

I'm more than happy to champion and recommend movies that are not super hero based and not based on DC/Marvel characters. They don't have to pretend to be comic based movies either.
And believe it or not, there is a fuck ton of none super hero films that come out at the cinemas, people just don't watch them. Super hero movies are probably 1.5% of the total movies released every year.

If you want to talk about super hero based movies as a whole though, what we see in the cinema from Marvel and DC reflects what we get in the printing world. Most super hero stories are fast paced with copious amounts of action and great characterisation. I'd actually say that characterisation is core to most good/great super hero stories. Story arcs go for 2-5 issues in general. Then every now and again you might get something like a "Joker" come along, like the Wolverine Origin mini series which recently got a sequel over the past few years. To demand that super movies be fundamentally changed would be a massive disservice for what they originally represent on the page.

All you can do is make sure you go out and pay money and support the other action movies that come out if you want more variety. If you are someone who watches all the MCU/DCEU movies in the cinema but waits until a home release for movies like Alita, John Wick and Rambo, things won't change. If you are someone who never goes to the cinema at all, things won't change. Make sure you are seeing Alita/John Wick in the cinema and getting your friends/family to go see them.

Why do you think there are so many direct to video action and martial arts films? Because people don't pay money and see them at the cinema. And this is before super hero movies really took off.
 

Xaero Gravity

NEXT LEVEL lame™
What do you guys think, is Joaquin Phoenix better Joker than Heath Ledger?
I think I like Ledger's Joker a bit more, but I prefer Phoenix's performance. If that makes any sense.

My all time favorite Joker though is Mark Hamill's animated interpretation of the character.

I'm also not as down on Leto's Joker as most people are. I thought the glimpses we got him showed me that it had the potential to be a different and interesting take. The idea of an established crime boss like Joker reminds me of The War of Jokes and Riddles, which I loved. So I wouldn't be against seeing something like that eventually.
 
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Saw it yesterday. Didn't get shot up. But did see a trailer for some all-female terrorist film called Harley Quinn. What will the Facist Left-Wing Agenda Press say about that one, huh, HUH?

IT'S OK WHEN WE DO IT. STOMP ON YOUR BALLS IT'S OK. WXMEN ARE INNOCENT. ART IS POLITICS.

Joker was ok though. How can people keep spouting the "it's about mentally ill people" when it had references a few times to
the Wayne parents' murder.

It was a superhero (villain) film.

Taxi Driver did it better, without the bollocks from The Guardian about disabilities. It seems the film's strengths are more about PC culture than an indepth critique of "mentally ill people".

Taxi Driver had all the tension, the music, and the mouth gun thingy done 40 years before this. Wasn't it banned too? I'm not sure, I'm not a cinephile.

But whadda I know, this is just a gaming forum.

 
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Doczu

Member
I recommend this take on all possibl delusions Joker had in the movie.



Gonna say it really made me re-think some of the scenes and makes the character seem even more insane.

the clown riots part is the best theory and i now call it true. Don't question me, it's my world, my head and my view on reality, k thx
 
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Doczu

Member
Oh and Aethurs mother has been
lobotomized,so it's possible Arthur was taking care of his vegetative mother, and all the dances, conversations and possibly letters were all his own delusions...
 

Panda1

Banned
I recommend this take on all possibl delusions Joker had in the movie.



Gonna say it really made me re-think some of the scenes and makes the character seem even more insane.

the clown riots part is the best theory and i now call it true. Don't question me, it's my world, my head and my view on reality, k thx

i agree with all this while not noticing it during the movie!!
 

sol_bad

Member
Saw it for a third time yesterday.

Amazing film that really speaks to me in a number of ways, as cliche as that sounds.

I might be seeing it again this Friday. So annoyed that it is no longer in IMAX though, it was in IMAX for 1 damn week.
No one in the Philippines cares about the movie. IMAX theatre was basically empty when I saw it on it's first Friday opening here.
:messenger_loudly_crying::messenger_loudly_crying::messenger_loudly_crying::messenger_loudly_crying::messenger_loudly_crying::messenger_loudly_crying:
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Finally saw it. Great videography and lighting. The soundtrack also matched the tone of the movie very well. Phoenix was creepy as fuck, and shows us how good of an actor he is.

I'm curious to see what any mental health professionals have to say about the performance. It's interesting how "grounded" superhero/supervillain stories sometimes use a exaggerated form of mental illness as part of their world building. I'm thinking of Split in particular, which was also great and featured great performances by Professor X as well.
 

cormack12

Gold Member
So, question about joker...
My take is that he did not....

Interesting, I thought it indicated he did for two reasons:

His reaction was to manically laugh in reflection as when he did the subway murders
The sirens and EMT lights in the background coming to the apartments
But then he let the dwarf go while killing Randall......

I thought it was superb overall. It made me view the origin in a different light and adds more complexity to the cutout of Joker just being a 'villain'. I agree with greencoder greencoder as well in that I feel Ledger's performance is elevated by his untimely death. It was a solid performance and believable but not 'defining'. I think Joaquin's was in that respect.

The score and lighting was fantastic, the amount of subtle incidental lighting where the gloom was surrounding the MC only to be lit by god rays or peripheral lighting as in a spotlight was fantastic. I also feel it does a good job of showing Joaquin was always the Joker, the class war created him, but it gave him the platform to become a symbol. I really want to see it again, might see it again at the weekend as there's more to takeaway and from recollection it's hard.


That independent article is god awful.
 

cormack12

Gold Member
I recommend this take on all possibl delusions Joker had in the movie.

It does make you think and I think it makes you choose a direction.

Either the entirety of the movie is a delusion at which point everything else is immaterial.

Or joker is relaying his story from a point in the film. I disagree with certain aspects where physical objects are intertwined as they are often the bridge of confirmation of reality. For example not every face had a mask, some were painted. The pov of the policeman as well was to start ripping masks off to identify joker. If there were no masks it would be unnecessary surely?
 
I still see the very ending of the movie being a fantasy. He's fed up and he knows he can't attack social workers when there's guards around. So he just imagines it. And in his imagination the guards are clumsy and he can out maneuver them. That's why he laughs. That's why the social worker "wouldn't get it". The world is his circus inside his imagination. Here Batman can exist.
 
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so a sequel is probably in developing stages at the moment

Phoenix admits that he and director Todd Phillips had started talking about what a Joker sequel could look like almost immediately after shooting began. “In the second or third week of shooting, I was like, ‘Todd, can you start working on a sequel? There’s way too much to explore.’ It was kind of in jest — but not really.”

Phoenix’s “jest” included enlisting Joker’s on-set photographer to help him create a bunch of “what-if” posters for a hypothetical Joker 2.

“I basically said, ‘You could take this character and put him in any movie,’” Phoenix said. “So I did a photo shoot with the on-set photographer and we made posters where I photoshopped Joker into 10 classic movies: Rosemary’s Baby, Raging Bull, Yentl. If you see it, you’re like, ‘Yeah, I’d watch that movie.’ Yentl with Joker? That would be amazing!”

yentl joker?

that's..

im not following joaquin here

i don't understand the raging bull one either

joker in the tone/style of rosemary's baby could be something though

 
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Scotty W

Member
I just watched it and loved it. I don't know if it is cinema that will last 100 years, but it is certainly one of the best new movies to come out in a very long time, and one of the few movies of the new millennium where I didn't feel like Hollywood was lying to me in any way.

I realized while I was watching it that it is partly based off a famous set of murders in New York in the 1980's. It was a great idea to turn this into a Joker story:


On December 22, 1984, four African-Americans (Barry Allen, Troy Canty, Darrell Cabey, and James Ramseur) were shot and wounded by Bernhard Goetz on a New York City Subway train in Manhattan.[1][2][3][4]
Goetz surrendered to police nine days later and was charged with attempted murder, assault, reckless endangerment, and several firearms offenses. Initial support and public opinion turned against Goetz due to racist statements and damaging details of the incident that later surfaced.[5] Despite this, a jury found him not guilty of all charges except for one count of carrying an unlicensed firearm, for which he served eight months of a one-year sentence. In 1996, Cabey, who had been left paraplegic and brain damaged as a result of his injuries, obtained a civil judgment of $43 million against Goetz.[6]
The incident sparked a nationwide debate on race and crime in major cities, the legal limits of self-defense, and the extent to which the citizenry could rely on the police to secure their safety.[3] Goetz, dubbed the "Subway Vigilante" by the New York press, came to symbolize New Yorkers' frustrations with the high crime rates of the 1980s. He was both praised and vilified in the media and public opinion. The incident has also been cited as a contributing factor to the groundswell movement against urban crime and disorder,[7] and the successful National Rifle Association campaigns to loosen restrictions on the concealed carrying of firearms.[8]
 

zenspider

Member
I enjoyed watching it - Phoenix was fantastic - but I didn't think it was very good.

It was a hodgepodge of impotent messaging, and the one they chose to run through - the "mental health" angle (was that even parlance in the 70s?) - was the most flaccid. For me, it undercut all the heavy-handed pathos dumps in the first act.

One of the best potential characters - 70s Gotham - was used as background. The "viral video" testifies to this being shoehorned into a period with no understanding of it, past better films it tries to emulate.

The most interesting thread - the Wayne connection - could have easily been salvaged by a maniacal laugh at the inscribed picture he found, but they chose to crumple it up and toss toss it, both the theme and the prop - he didn't get the joke, and we're stuck with a limp "I can't get my meds" narrative to drive his transformation.

Where Ledger's Joker traded in hypocrisy, and Phoenix's in victimhood, ending in a spectacular display of impotent rage for both him and the cartoon city.

Aside from the "you must think I'm an idiot" Fight Club montage mid-way, it was absolutely beautiful. Too bad it was a cold fish in the sack.

Tl;dr Disney's Taxi Driver.
 
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