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News Analysis Platform How Oodle Kraken and Oodle Texture supercharge the IO system of the Sony PS5

Panajev2001a

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Is that said officially somewhere? Haven't seen it and I find it extremely hard to believe a software compression mechanism is resource free

It is HW based (aside for one optional pre-processing step you need to undo at runtime on the GPU or the CPU... BC7Prep). Oodle Texture employs a pre-processing step that makes the textures easier to compress at a high ratio with a zlib or Kraken compressor (it is an optimiser).

See:
 

yurinka

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0%. At worst, there's a GPU compute hit depending on what level of compression is used.
Oodle Texture and Kraken imply lossless image compression. Kraken is decompressed by a dedicated chip, so 0% impact on both CPU and GPU.

In fact, Oodle Texture isn't a compression system itself. What it does is to rework internally the files in a lossless way, to make sure that later, when compressed with a compressor (in this case Kraken) it will compress more than without applying it.
 

yurinka

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Layman terms for an idiot like me?

What does this mean for games like GOW Ragnarok assuming it's PS5 only (please no cross gen please) aside from really fast load times?
With this, loading times get so high that they will be able to basically have in memory only the art assets of what you see in the screen, and as you move the camera they will be able to remove from memory the stuff you stop seeing and to load the new stuff you'll see.

In the past, with normal HDD or way slower SSD systems, with the same amount of memory loading times were higher, so they had to keep in memory a bigger portion of the stage/level of the game. This means that the art assets had to be less detailed because more of them had to share the same space of memory at the same time.

So now the amount of stuff they can get rid out of memory is bigger, and they can load the new one faster. So basically this means that there can be more stuff in screen or it can be way more detailed stuff in terms of polygon count and texture detail, and also in more quantity or diversity of art assets (so less repeating rocks or trees) in the screen. More clothes variants for enemies or NPCs on the screen would be possible. And for the same reasons, higher draw distances and less pop-in issues.

It also allows reading speeds of up to 22GB/s and since it's very likely that there would be around 13-14GB or RAM available for games on the PS5 (being the other for OS and background secondary apps), it will means all SSD loading times from all games to be reduced to less than 2 seconds or even less than 1 second. This includes booting the game, loading a save state, loading a new stage or quick teleports to any point of the game. Some games also do some security online checks or synching with the server or other players during loading times, these times wouldn't be shortened by this.

It is so fast and allows them a level of detail bigger than the one that is possible to show using the resolution they are using to draw the game. And now it will be real detail, they won't need to do some tricks they have been using until now to fake extra detail that wasn't there with many techniques like normal mapping and so on.

And something really important: this speed and compression comes from the only system that PS5 will have to load games from the SSD, so all games will take advantage of it. Oodle Texture is something that some of the launch PS5 games doesn't have but Sony bought it for all internal and external games, so will be free, everybody will use it and devs won't need to do anything to take advantage of these high speeds.

That insane speed will give them all these possible benefits and other ones, and will be up to them where or how do they use them. More variety or rocks? More detail in rocks? More drawing distance? etc. In the past, artist did spend a lot of work trying to reduce the amount of detail to the one that the console was able to render, and made tricks to fake extra detail. Now they will skip all this work and will spend their time adding detail, but are afraid that the amount of level of detail now it's going to be so big that they will need to spend a huge amount of resources to be making all this detail and diversity of stuff.
 
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mitchman

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Oodle Texture and Kraken imply lossless image compression. Kraken is decompressed by a dedicated chip, so 0% impact on both CPU and GPU.

In fact, Oodle Texture isn't a compression system itself. What it does is to rework internally the files in a lossless way, to make sure that later, when compressed with a compressor (in this case Kraken) it will compress more than without applying it.
Yes, except when BC7Prep is used, which was my point.
 

mitchman

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There won't be a hit on either the CPU nor the GPU, since the PS5's decompression hardware are being used. On other consoles it's a different story.
I should have mentioned that the GPU compute hit is if BC7Prep is used.

"BC7prep is a lossless transform specifically for BC7 (not BC1-6) that rearranges the bits to improve the compression ratio. Unlike Oodle Texture RDO, BC7Prep requires a reverse transform at runtime to unpack it back to BC7. This is a super fast operation, and can also be done with a GPU compute shader so the CPU doesn't have to touch the bits at all. "

 
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LittleBusters

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So now the peak is not 17, not 22 but 25Gb/s if you believe Mark Cerny. Which means at Oodle Peak, PS5 will be 5x faster than XSX.
 
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RaySoft

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I should have mentioned that the GPU compute hit is if BC7Prep is used.

"BC7prep is a lossless transform specifically for BC7 (not BC1-6) that rearranges the bits to improve the compression ratio. Unlike Oodle Texture RDO, BC7Prep requires a reverse transform at runtime to unpack it back to BC7. This is a super fast operation, and can also be done with a GPU compute shader so the CPU doesn't have to touch the bits at all. "

It's some crazy good algos at work here. Take a look at this page (scroll down to the soup bowl), where you can compare an image compressed with kraken. One with 0 lambda and the other with up to 40 lambda. That's a difference of almost half the size. I for one can't see any differences..
Even more examples here
 
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Just bumped for Negotiator101 Negotiator101

Since i've spreading crap

You've made the 13 - 15gb amount up, you've pulled that figure out of where the sun don't shine 😅

In all seriousness stop the crap!

Ok, show me where you got it from?


It was so easy to find if you google it or search it here. Oodle texture results for PS5 were news across the net. No wonder why is a thread here
 
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skit_data

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...and since this thread was posted more interviews reporting how closely Sony worked with Epic games has surfaced as well as the fact that Epic Games bought RAD GameTools.
 
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Negotiator101

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Just bumped for Negotiator101 Negotiator101

Since i've spreading crap






It was so easy to find. Oodle texture results for PS5 where news across the net. No wonder why is a thread here
No, Sony have not changed their spec sheet one little bit, you are referring to oodle creators who have hypothesised a peak of 17.38GBs. Now the fact Sony have not changed the initial spec should very clearly tell you that's not feasible. Given they made the console I think they'd know. 😁
 

Clear

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God I hate terms like "supercharge" in the context of gaming hardware and software.

Stop trying to sound macho. Noone's buying it.
 
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No, Sony have not changed their spec sheet one little bit, you are referring to oodle creators who have hypothesised a peak of 17.38GBs. Now the fact Sony have not changed the initial spec should very clearly tell you that's not feasible. Given they made the console I think they'd know. 😁

Max is 22 GB. So, 15 GB on average. Sony licensed Oodle Texture. Cheers
 

Negotiator101

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Max is 22 GB. So, 15 GB on average. Sony licensed Oodle Texture. Cheers
I gave you a chance you failed, the games speak for themselves and will continue to do so. If we see big differences in loading, lod etc then I'll concede, we are yet to see any advantage for PS5 in that area.
 

RaySoft

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No, Sony have not changed their spec sheet one little bit, you are referring to oodle creators who have hypothesised a peak of 17.38GBs. Now the fact Sony have not changed the initial spec should very clearly tell you that's not feasible. Given they made the console I think they'd know. 😁
The numbers Sony put up at the PS5 reveal where without Oodle texture compression. There´s a good reason for why Sony designed a decompression block that can handle 19GB/s.
 
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SlimySnake

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Airbus Jr

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he was a pedo. I saw him make several pedo posts.

he was banned for this. I think the mods had enough of people reporting him over pedo stuff.

Damn...i usually like his post and unique username...

Never knew it will come to this...

Aparantly mrfunsocks and phone are getting banned to? Daymn....

Il be more carefull next time...
 

TheTechnician

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I gave you a chance you failed, the games speak for themselves and will continue to do so. If we see big differences in loading, lod etc then I'll concede, we are yet to see any advantage for PS5 in that area.
Cerny himself mentioned a theoretical max throughput of 22GB/s "if the code is compressed particularly well" ..
People who think PS5 is maxed out already because cross gen games have this fps with that settings are in for a harsh landing...
 

Negotiator101

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Cerny himself mentioned a theoretical max throughput of 22GB/s "if the code is compressed particularly well" ..
People who think PS5 is maxed out already because cross gen games have this fps with that settings are in for a harsh landing...
I'd wager you're in for a far rougher landing, Cerny is a clever man but not above PR talk, just let the games speak for themselves.
 
Dec 10, 2020
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I gave you a chance you failed, the games speak for themselves and will continue to do so. If we see big differences in loading, lod etc then I'll concede, we are yet to see any advantage for PS5 in that area.

Cerny himself mentioned a theoretical max throughput of 22GB/s "if the code is compressed particularly well" ..
People who think PS5 is maxed out already because cross gen games have this fps with that settings are in for a harsh landing...

I'd wager you're in for a far rougher landing, Cerny is a clever man but not above PR talk, just let the games speak for themselves.

First you, Negotiator, said to me that i've made up numbers in other thread, now, when numbers are true, then you said i've failed. LOL.

TheTechnician TheTechnician

Yep, sooner or later there will be a harsh landing. It already happened actually when first graphics and fps comparisons showed up
 

TheTechnician

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I'd wager you're in for a far rougher landing, Cerny is a clever man but not above PR talk, just let the games speak for themselves.
Funny because Cerny quite underselled PS5 in his tech talk .
There was not even this PR talk like you suggest.
And PS5s ability to not only deliver the same but quite often even more Performance than Xbox X with the later having + 1.8tf simply underlines what he was saying about PS5.
About the landing...
If anything I will land on you...
Landing.. lol
Like a hammer lands on a nail eheh
 
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yurinka

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Funny because Cerny quite underselled PS5 in his tech talk .
There was not even this PR talk like you suggest.
And PS5s ability to not only deliver the same but quite often even more Performance than Xbox X with the later having + 1.8tf simply underlines what he was saying about PS5.
About the landing...
If anything I will land on you...
Landing.. lol
Like a hammer lands on a nail eheh
Cerny explained very well the new things that super fast SSD+decompression could add to game development, and as I remember he mentioned in the talk that it could go up to 22GB/s if particularly well compressed (even if the average would be 8-9GB/s). He also mentioned key things about memory management and so on, plus how CPU and GPU share resources and how its cooling system works etc.

Everything combined results into a very optimized performance that goes beyond what at first sight you may expect if only look at the raw specs. As every generation, the games published during the first year or two are made adapted previous gen engines, crossgen games and without having access since the very start of the development to all the final tech specs, tools and hardware.

Starting around late 2022/early 2023 we'll see next gen only AAA games (mostly exclusives) that will blow our minds. Expect to see crazy detail as seen in the Unreal 5 demo and -in games where it makes sense in terms of game and level design- potential environment destrucion in a scale we never seen before due to realistic real time lighting (no longer pre-made baked lighting, so scenes won't need to be super static as until now). Also thanks to this super fast streaming level designers now will have more freedom and worlds will be able to be more dense and populated and won't need to have -if properly developed- corridor areas to mask level streaming.
 
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